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Old    Low Tide (Cisco)      Join Date: Apr 2010       10-14-2017, 1:38 PM Reply   
At least they gave riders like her a chance and maybe people should shop complaining.

https://wake.sista.zone/what-can-we-...ing-wakesista/ :

"We are here to make sure the best of what you do gets out there and to push and promote both your media and capture and publish what female wakeboarding is to you, the riders.

You have a responsibility of course to produce that media.

So we ask that you take that responsibility to heart and think twice before posting Instagram images that you think will get you more likes from the male demographic because it shows off your assets, Öand when editing your videos, donít choose the only shot with your bum in it as the thumbnail because you think otherwise it will be overlooked.

YOU have the power to form womenís wakeboarding and we are here to make sure that your positive impact reaches a global audience."
Attached Images
 
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       10-14-2017, 1:54 PM Reply   
dont see anything to complain about
Old    Vinny Armentano (VinnyA)      Join Date: Aug 2011       10-14-2017, 3:10 PM Reply   
Thanks for always igniting interesting threads Cisco; going to treat that opening sentence as sarcasm.(wish there was a sarcasm font though lol)
Nacho, we all actually have a ton to complain about.

I'm much more familiar with the conversation from the surfing community, but there are obvious parallels here. Plenty of surf articles out there taking issue with advertising
https://you.women2.com/f-ck-you-bill...u-84995f3d7946
& about companies choosing to sponsor "female models who surf" vs "female surfers"
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b016f37895f79f


Most of the justifications for the double standards/sexualization of female riders comes back to money in one of two ways;
1. "it's what our readers; who are mostly guys want to see. Wakeboarding is mostly dudes anyways"
or 2."this content boosts engagement & feeds our ad revenues".

I feel like I've kind of turned into the guy on WW who always just attacks MC for the fact their boats cost over 3 times the Avg US HH Income but in a time when we're seeing
1. skyrocketing boat prices, 2.smaller offerings from board manufacturers, & 3. a reduced ability for companies to sponsor riders
there's a huge need, financially speaking for the size of the sport to be as large as possible, and that's where embracing female riders comes in.

Sure Alliance can squeeze out some extra advertising money appealing to the male demographic by basically posting softcore porn and having the Wake Butt award in the short term...but they don't know that they wouldn't have more readers & an even larger revenue stream in the long term if they encouraged the participation of female athletes, boosting the number of people buying boards/subscribing to magazines/buying boats & partaking in the sport in general. The setup in the manufacturing scene requires economies of scale in order to bring prices down, and growing the size of the sport should be a top priority on everyone's mind.

It's a shame if anyone who tried wakeboarding and wanted to pursue it simply didn't because they didn't feel welcome, female or male. And their choice to walk away from the sport is felt by everyone who does wakeboard in our wallets.


Giving props to those doing it right; SheShreds.Co is a company that's doing well & paints what the model will have to be from larger brands in the future. Every FB/IG post I see from them is focused on ability/talent & just spreading stoke.
https://sheshreds.co


Median HH Income Source; https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA646N
Old    Justin Harrelson (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       10-15-2017, 7:21 AM Reply   
Well, all industries have adopted the likes = $$$ sponsorship scale. Bootys get likes.
Old    Scott (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       10-15-2017, 8:50 AM Reply   
"It's a shame if anyone who tried wakeboarding and wanted to pursue it simply didn't because they didn't feel welcome, female or male. "

Well written but everyone I know wakeboards or not based on availability of boat, time, or not wanting to get hurt, or just that it is tough to make progress so they quit.
Old    Stephen P (stevo8290)      Join Date: Sep 2008       10-16-2017, 9:10 AM Reply   
when i can almost see your colon it detracts from what you are doing.
Old    Orion (chillinoj)      Join Date: May 2009       10-16-2017, 11:28 AM Reply   
slightly off topic, but all part of the same coversation, it is partly up to us to encourage & support those helping the sport go in the right direction too.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2247211/caroline-gleich-fights-back-against-cyber-harassment
Old    TimelineX (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       10-16-2017, 2:00 PM Reply   
I'll give my 2 cents on the subject, but I know alot of you guys aren't going to like it. This is coming from the point of view of a successful business owner. Most consumers just have no idea how businesses work (hence why 2/3 of new businesses go bankrupt within the first year)

It sounds like alot of virtue signaling and complaining going on, but the reality is that everyone is just finger pointing at the wrong guys.

Large companies operate to make money. If you believe otherwise, you are delusional and you should really try to learn more on the subject before placing blame. Even all the "good gestures" and donations that companies do are just self serving in increasing brand worth. THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE. Companies that don't do this either stay small and struggle their entire life or just go out of business. You cannot expect corporations to change.

So the blame (if you can call it that) is really on the customer. These companies are just giving the customers what they want. For example, you can complain about boat prices all you want, but if they weren't selling at those prices, they wouldn't keep raising prices. Average household salary means absolutely nothing if thats not their market. The lack of reasonably priced boats might be an opportunity for someone to come in and make boats for the market thats left behind, but if someone hasn't come in yet, I doubt its much of a market anyways. The 100's of boats the big guys would sell with a cheaper line probably just wouldn't make them enough money, compared to what they would lose by losing more expensive sales. Maybe it's a different reason that they don't think its financially viable. I dont know since I'm not in the industry. But I do know that big companies don't like leaving money on the table.

Anyways. If you want them to stop advertising wakeboard butts, then change the customer. If you don't think its the customer thats the issue, then you're in luck. You got a great opportunity. Open your own women's company without the focus having anything to do with sexiness. If you think its a viable option, take out some loans and invest your life savings. See how well it sells. Be a hero the industry needs. Laugh all the way to the bank with your huge profits. If you are so sure the issue is that all the big companies are just ran by sexist pigs versus them giving the market what it wants, then do it yourself. Since women are 50% of the population, you have an amazing chance to make billions!

Otherwise, accept that sex sells. It's pretty funny that some of you believe that the only reason half naked women are being used as advertising is because its a mens market.... Have you seen womens magazines? They are just as provocative. You think they are doing that for no reason? Turns out a sexy lady representing your brand/item sells to BOTH men and women (for different reasons). Probably easier to blame the sexist men though, AMIRITE.

My humble opinion? Stop trying to blame everyone but yourself. If you think the industry doesn't have enough women, then be the change you want to see. Get women into the sport by getting them onto your boat. Thats the #1 thing. My wife doesn't care if the advertisements for wakeboarding are a picture of a naked lady, a naked man, or a picture of a hole in the ground. She tried wakeboarding. Had fun. So she continued doing it. Since then she has dragged some other friends on the boat as well.
Old    Scott (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       10-16-2017, 2:32 PM Reply   
Agree...
Old    Steven Walters (hyperlite291)      Join Date: Sep 2010       10-16-2017, 5:07 PM Reply   
I don't think its a big deal that the girls post in bikinis. They ride for brands that sell bikinis, therefore they need to show the bikini.

Girls wear bikinis to the pool, to the beach, to waterparks, and now all of a sudden they cant wear them to the cable? Some of you guys btch about the dumbest things.

I would understand if you were complaining about a girl who didn't ride well, but this girl looks good and rips.




from GNARproductions on Vimeo.

Old    Stephen P (stevo8290)      Join Date: Sep 2008       10-17-2017, 9:50 AM Reply   
I definitely agree with you Steven. There's nothing wrong with looking good and shredding. I wasn't trying to hate, more than anything I just think its funny when I see things like what wakezeach posted a few days ago. People do anything for a few likes these days.
Old    Stephen P (stevo8290)      Join Date: Sep 2008       10-17-2017, 9:59 AM Reply   
Name:  Untitled.jpg
Views: 665
Size:  105.7 KB

How could anyone have a problem with this? Her frontside boardslides are teed up real nice.
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       10-17-2017, 10:04 AM Reply   
My issue with it, is that she is a hypocrite. She was easily the most outraged about the "sexism issues" within wake boarding. Absolutely, 100%, she should wear whatever she wants. I'm not saying that. I do think it's stupid to wakeboard in a bikini, but I have never seen any indication that she's doing that.

My issue, mainly, is that she wants people (fellow athletes, judges and spectators) to recognize her skills and talents, and not sexualize her and treat her with disrespect. Well, hate to break it to you, but if you purposely post pictures on social media that focus the attention on showing off your body, then people are going to focus on it.

If you want people to focus on your physical attractiveness and beauty, that's great. Models do that everyday and it's perfectly acceptable. You just have to understand that anytime you show anything off, whether it's your skills as a wakeboarder or your bum in a bikini, it's going to be fair game for discussion.

Last edited by boardjnky4; 10-17-2017 at 10:08 AM.
Old    TimelineX (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       10-17-2017, 10:05 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
My issue with it, is that she is a hypocrite. She was easily the most outraged about the sexism issues within wake boarding. Absolutely, 100%, she should wear whatever she wants. I'm not saying that. I do think it's stupid to wakeboard in a bikini, but I have never seen any indication that she's doing that.

My issue, mainly, is that she wants people (fellow athletes, judges and spectators) to recognize her skills and talents, and not sexualize her and treat her with disrespect. Well, hate to break it to you, but if you purposely post pictures on social media that focus the attention on showing off your body, then people are going to focus on it.

If you want people to focus on your physical attractiveness and beauty, that's great. Models do that everyday and it's perfectly acceptable.
100% agreed.
Old    Vinny Armentano (VinnyA)      Join Date: Aug 2011       10-17-2017, 12:06 PM Reply   
Hey TimelineX,

Thanks for your $.02. Just wanted to take a moment to quickly let you know why your positions are wrong.

RE the complaining; I don’t think it’s unreasonable to complain about the fact that we live in a patriarchy. Patriarchal societies hurt both men and women & this is not something that’s going to change overnight, so a little bishing/moaning every now and then makes the time go by a little faster.

You’re totally right when you say large companies operate to make money on a financial bottom line. Doing so and having market economy is the most efficient way to allocate goods and resources in a scarce environment. This remains true as long as market equilibrium doesn’t fall into a state of market failure (externalities, tragedy of the commons, etc)
- For this conversation though, that’s aside the point, & it’s incorrect to say that it’s the ideal for all stakeholders involved; it’s just ideal for the industry.
- What you’re doing is conflating “profitable” with “profit maximizing”. Companies can still make money while not operating at their point of profit maximization. You have correctly pointed out that this already happens with cases of corporate social responsibility spending & charitable donations. I’m simply saying that the charity money they’re giving away on X today could be better spent on Y. Because Y (here a negative sum, representing a lack of profits obtained through sexist advertising schemes or increased salaries for female riders) will in turn expand the size of the market & lead to larger profits in the future. What is given away as charity could really be an opportunity for companies to invest in the future of the sport.
- How effective the investment is though, is a question of an empirical nature that we’ll unfortunately probably never know the answer to without concerted research (and that’s why you don’t see it happening today is because the outcome is unsure & companies are risk averse)

My hypothesis as to why MC and other boat companies keep raising prices is; 1.because they are profit maximizing and 2.are following the wealth up the income ladder, due to the widening inequality in the country. This is less than ideal for those of us on the margins; because as they move up the demand curve, fewer & fewer of us actually have boats even though they’re still profit maximizing, as you know. This is an instance when the best outcome for the sport is not the best outcome for the industry. A scenario your post ignores because you’re only looking at the health of the sport through the eyes of the businesses involved.
- We also can’t ignore the fact that MC might view wakesurfing as their company’s future & be pivoting to treat those customers as their primary market. Another scenario where MC’s interests are misaligned with what’s best for wakeboarding.

Accepting sex sells ignores the why, which is what really matters right? Sex sells to both men and women because we live in a patriarchy, it’s endogenous. The article attacking rip curl I posted above is someone from your society telling you for a fact it doesn’t work for them, don’t pretend it’s something only a few are irked by. Eventually the people put off by it will outnumber the people who dig it (I’m guessing that’ll be extremely correlated with baby boomers exiting the population).

In regards to the challenge of starting a female focused brand; I’m set. The idea of grad school is already enough to contend with and as much as I like wakeboarding I realized the industry was beyond saving after learning Kent Watersports (conglomerate that owns Hyperlite/Ho, CWB/Connelly, Obrien & Liquid force + more) put the smaller & independent Company Wakeboards out of business with litigation expenses over a sham lawsuit about a binding patent. Not trying to be involved in anything close to that.

I’m sure you’re a successful business owner & I’m glad you enjoy wakeboarding enough to write about it here on WW. But running a successful business doesn’t require that you understand economics, which is what this conversation is really about.
Since this post was just me regurgitating introduction to microeconomics, I’ve put a link below to MIT’s open courseware for their Micro Principles class if you’d like to learn more about the subject. It’s taught by Jonathan Gruber I think you’d really enjoy it.
Microeconomics Principles: https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/economic...ics-fall-2011/
Post about aforementioned lawsuit: http://www.nwkite.com/forums/t-21442.html
Timeline of Kent Watersports acquisitions: https://www.kentwatersports.com/about-us


Steven W,
It’s not about what they’re wearing, it’s about how they’re portrayed in media & what the idea of “success” is laid out to be for female athletes.
Here’s an example if you need one: girl A is hot but sucks & girl B is not hot but lands Crow9s consistently. The notion that girl A would be sponsored instead of girl B is wrong & unhealthy for society as it places the idea of success for women (as validated by sponsorship) in being hot and not in riding well.
Yeah Carro & a lot of other female riders happen to be beautiful and are extremely talented. But in the originally posted article you can hear right from them that they don’t believe the extremely talented part plays as large a role in their careers as they’d like.


Tom,
The hypocrisy is true, but I think focusing on it distracts from the larger issue. We can’t pretend there’s a real choice here. When the institutions involved expect you to be reaching certain Social Media engagement milestones or featured in X amount of advertisements, and you can’t achieve those things without resorting to sexualizing yourself, it’s only rational to partake to avoid career insecurity. Doesn’t make one any more responsible than the rest of us living in the same society.


I’m here to take any more questions . If you want to know why I’m credible on the subject: I have a college degree & more than one female friend.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       10-17-2017, 12:56 PM Reply   
here's a concept for ya. How about the girls in question hold themselves accountable?

Last edited by denverd1; 10-17-2017 at 12:58 PM.
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       10-17-2017, 1:06 PM Reply   
There are plenty of successful female wakeboarders that haven't resorted to sexualization and have been greatly successful in their careers. Maybe it helps get "likes", but it's not necessary.

Tara Mikacich, Amber Wing and Julia Rick are some that come directly to mind.

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you're stuggling to make it as a pro wakeboarder based on your skill, photo/video content (which seems to be lacking for Carro) or contest results, then maybe you're just not good enough to be pro wakeboarder anymore.

Last edited by boardjnky4; 10-17-2017 at 1:10 PM.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       10-17-2017, 2:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo8290 View Post
Attachment 43694

How could anyone have a problem with this? Her frontside boardslides are teed up real nice.
All I can think of is how much that plastic will burn when you eat it.

Whatever floats your boat, for some it is ďfake it til ya make itĒ
Old    Stephen P (stevo8290)      Join Date: Sep 2008       10-17-2017, 2:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
All I can think of is how much that plastic will burn when you eat it.

Whatever floats your boat, for some it is ďfake it til ya make itĒ
Sarcasm simple... sarcasm
Old    TimelineX (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       10-17-2017, 2:56 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnyA View Post
Hey TimelineX,

Thanks for your $.02. Just wanted to take a moment to quickly let you know why your positions are wrong.

RE the complaining; I donít think itís unreasonable to complain about the fact that we live in a patriarchy. Patriarchal societies hurt both men and women & this is not something thatís going to change overnight, so a little bishing/moaning every now and then makes the time go by a little faster.

Youíre totally right when you say large companies operate to make money on a financial bottom line. Doing so and having market economy is the most efficient way to allocate goods and resources in a scarce environment. This remains true as long as market equilibrium doesnít fall into a state of market failure (externalities, tragedy of the commons, etc)
- For this conversation though, thatís aside the point, & itís incorrect to say that itís the ideal for all stakeholders involved; itís just ideal for the industry.
- What youíre doing is conflating ďprofitableĒ with ďprofit maximizingĒ. Companies can still make money while not operating at their point of profit maximization. You have correctly pointed out that this already happens with cases of corporate social responsibility spending & charitable donations. Iím simply saying that the charity money theyíre giving away on X today could be better spent on Y. Because Y (here a negative sum, representing a lack of profits obtained through sexist advertising schemes or increased salaries for female riders) will in turn expand the size of the market & lead to larger profits in the future. What is given away as charity could really be an opportunity for companies to invest in the future of the sport.
- How effective the investment is though, is a question of an empirical nature that weíll unfortunately probably never know the answer to without concerted research (and thatís why you donít see it happening today is because the outcome is unsure & companies are risk averse)

My hypothesis as to why MC and other boat companies keep raising prices is; 1.because they are profit maximizing and 2.are following the wealth up the income ladder, due to the widening inequality in the country. This is less than ideal for those of us on the margins; because as they move up the demand curve, fewer & fewer of us actually have boats even though theyíre still profit maximizing, as you know. This is an instance when the best outcome for the sport is not the best outcome for the industry. A scenario your post ignores because youíre only looking at the health of the sport through the eyes of the businesses involved.
- We also canít ignore the fact that MC might view wakesurfing as their companyís future & be pivoting to treat those customers as their primary market. Another scenario where MCís interests are misaligned with whatís best for wakeboarding.

Accepting sex sells ignores the why, which is what really matters right? Sex sells to both men and women because we live in a patriarchy, itís endogenous. The article attacking rip curl I posted above is someone from your society telling you for a fact it doesnít work for them, donít pretend itís something only a few are irked by. Eventually the people put off by it will outnumber the people who dig it (Iím guessing thatíll be extremely correlated with baby boomers exiting the population).

In regards to the challenge of starting a female focused brand; Iím set. The idea of grad school is already enough to contend with and as much as I like wakeboarding I realized the industry was beyond saving after learning Kent Watersports (conglomerate that owns Hyperlite/Ho, CWB/Connelly, Obrien & Liquid force + more) put the smaller & independent Company Wakeboards out of business with litigation expenses over a sham lawsuit about a binding patent. Not trying to be involved in anything close to that.

Iím sure youíre a successful business owner & Iím glad you enjoy wakeboarding enough to write about it here on WW. But running a successful business doesnít require that you understand economics, which is what this conversation is really about.
Since this post was just me regurgitating introduction to microeconomics, Iíve put a link below to MITís open courseware for their Micro Principles class if youíd like to learn more about the subject. Itís taught by Jonathan Gruber I think youíd really enjoy it.
Microeconomics Principles: https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/economic...ics-fall-2011/
Post about aforementioned lawsuit: http://www.nwkite.com/forums/t-21442.html
Timeline of Kent Watersports acquisitions: https://www.kentwatersports.com/about-us
It's obviously you have put some thought into this. I respect your point of view and I don't necessarily disagree with alot of what you said and it really sounds like you don't disgaree with much of what I said. I definitely agree with you about "whats best for the sports versus whats best for the industry" being two different things. But I do believe that it's still beside the point. Companies will do whats best for the industry and more specifically themselves. They shouldn't really be expected to do otherwise. Change can't happen through them. It has to happen through the market itself. Their charity work, sponsorship, and other things are not done in spite of profit maximization. I don't see how you believe they are doing it to stay profitable but not necessarily maximize profits. It is done FOR profit maximization. They are hedging their bets that these actions will pay off in dividends over the long term. Period.

The primary point of contention I have with you is your strong belief about the patriarchy. It's not that I don't agree that there are still sexist people out there. There will always be discrimination in the general population, one way or another. It's that I don't believe that this is "the reason" for most of our issues anymore. One way or another, there will always be differences in the sexes. It's biology. Just like womens sports will never compete with mens. They don't have the genetic capability. Things like explosiveness are primarily genetic and minimally trainable (In a lifetime, an athlete can only train his vertical jump to improve a few inches over a lifetime.) If you don't agree. We will agree to disagree. I don't really want to get into this discussion.

In my opinion, the best case scenario for society is to ALLOW equal opportunity to all to do what they want. I believe we are close to already being there (Outside of "wealth privilege". But not sure how you can change that, since that's inherent with the point of having wealth.)

Just to give my meaningless anecdotal evidence... Outside of myself, the top 3 highest earning people I know are all women in 3 different fields (entrepreneur, doctor & wall street). All the women I know that are doing poorly have either made a lifestyle choice (staying home with the kids) or are on par with men that have their same drive/smarts. Women now make up a majority of college graduates and according to the stats are on average making MORE than equally capable men after graduating.

Ultimately there are advantages and disadvantages to every portion of societies "biases". Imagine if you were able to get wakeboard sponsorships based on just your looks. I'm sure alot of guys would love that option. I believe whole heartedly that a women that is at the top of her field wake boarding, can make it on her skills wake boarding. If you want sex taken out of the equation then it has to start with the women themselves. Men can't make it right for them and we shouldn't be expected to. They should choose not to degrade themselves (if you consider it degrading) by trying to get ahead with looks........ This is obviously not happening as many women are more than happy to take every advantage they can (and in my opinion they are 100% right for doing so).

So I still stand by what I said. If the market wants womens butts on screens and there are enough women that are willing to do it. Then the companies should be giving it to the people. If a lady wants to make it on merit alone, then she should train like the rest of the pros and she will make it as well. Competitions don't look at your bikini body while judging. If someone blames sexism/the patriarchy/etc on not making it. I will continue viewing it for what it is. An excuse. I strongly believe that having an internal locus of control is a huge indicator of success.
Old    Steven Walters (hyperlite291)      Join Date: Sep 2010       10-17-2017, 2:58 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
My issue with it, is that she is a hypocrite. She was easily the most outraged about the "sexism issues" within wake boarding. Absolutely, 100%, she should wear whatever she wants. I'm not saying that. I do think it's stupid to wakeboard in a bikini, but I have never seen any indication that she's doing that.

My issue, mainly, is that she wants people (fellow athletes, judges and spectators) to recognize her skills and talents, and not sexualize her and treat her with disrespect. Well, hate to break it to you, but if you purposely post pictures on social media that focus the attention on showing off your body, then people are going to focus on it.

If you want people to focus on your physical attractiveness and beauty, that's great. Models do that everyday and it's perfectly acceptable. You just have to understand that anytime you show anything off, whether it's your skills as a wakeboarder or your bum in a bikini, it's going to be fair game for discussion.
I don't really find her a hypocrite at all to be honest. She stood up for womens wakeboarding, and stood up for women in general. If the photo above were Harley looking out at the lake in his board shorts would you think that he's trying to show off his body for attention? If she was wearing a thong I would maybe understand, but she is wearing just a standard bikini which any girl should be allowed to take a photo in. In none of her photos is she making a sexual pose or anything. I feel that all her photos are respectable and not trashy whatsoever.

I don't know the girl at all, but she markets herself and the brands she ride for very well and props to her for standing up for what she believes in.

Anyways the chick rips, so she's pretty damn cool in my book.
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       10-17-2017, 4:11 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperlite291 View Post
I don't really find her a hypocrite at all to be honest. She stood up for womens wakeboarding, and stood up for women in general. If the photo above were Harley looking out at the lake in his board shorts would you think that he's trying to show off his body for attention? If she was wearing a thong I would maybe understand, but she is wearing just a standard bikini which any girl should be allowed to take a photo in. In none of her photos is she making a sexual pose or anything. I feel that all her photos are respectable and not trashy whatsoever.

I don't know the girl at all, but she markets herself and the brands she ride for very well and props to her for standing up for what she believes in.

Anyways the chick rips, so she's pretty damn cool in my book.
The entire ordeal a few months ago was about "wake butt of the year". And here is a picture of her backside. I'm not saying she deserves to be harassed or poked fun at or anything. I mean, the original post says it all, and it IS hypocritical because I'm pretty sure she's one of the authors of that site.

Yeah she rips, but I hardly ever see videos of her riding. More wake content please!
Old    Scott (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       10-18-2017, 5:48 PM Reply   
These companies are just throwing **** at the wall to see what will stick. Like what was said about research, no one really knows what makes stuff sells. Old saying is "50% of the marketing dollar is wasted. Problem is you don't know which 50%". My point is who says, sex sells. I enjoy seeing the girls ride, and I enjoy seeing them in the skimpy suits...But you think I am going to buy a boat or wakeboard or something, guys they show girls like that in some vid or something. Come on?

Companies are trying to maximize their profits for sure, but they are run by idiots for the most part, that don't know what to do so, they trust some marketing idiot, that says, sex sells, and we got to do this. So they do. And if their sales go up the marketing guys says, see look what i did. even though it could be because the economy is better and their customers got a raise, or their product improved cause their engineers did something right.

These girls are in a tough spot, cause like the weinstein thing, but not harrassment, someone is telling them, sex sells, so if you want this sponsorship you gotta wear this or that....or if they are not telling them that then the girls think they should dress like that and suggest it to get the sponsorship. either way it is sad. but it is all cause some idiot thinks sex sells...people might like to watch the video's with the girls like that,,,but you can't prove it makes them purchase anything. she is not a hypocrite. she is just doing the best with the talent and bs that exists that she is trying to navigate...just like all of us are in our own little microcosm worlds. we are all hypocrites when we don't stand up for what is right, and we slow down getting society to a more moral place.

all the economic talk is true except, since you can't prove sex sells, you can't prove any of it applies...you don't know if it increases demand....and even if you cite some damn study, you can't prove it crosses over to wakeboard boat purchases which are highly dependent on technical aspects of the wake, and crap like that...

patriarchy..yeah whatever...it is the freakin golden rule: he who has the gold rules...it started out as men, so i guess you are right...but not sure what that has to do with her wearing that stuff...if tomorrow all the companies were run by women instead, then the same dumb ass marketing person would say sex sells, you gotta wear this stuff. and the woman ceo would be like, uh, i don't know...ok...i guess so...cause they won't take the risk that they could be wrong, and they could lose their job.

companies are raising the price of boats cause that shizzle sells...too many rich bastards buying the stuff...and too many rich bastards financing the stuff for them...

"i am here to take more questions...i am mr credible"...

yeah, i am too. when you have been fired as many times as i have for standing up for what is moral and right let me know...you wanna compare? Has the attorney general called you and you had to rat out your boss? have you presented financial info at a board meeting and had a community board member asked you a question in front of the corrupt board chair and your boss and you had to make a decision then and there of what to say?

summary: she is doing the best she can to exist in the current system and correct it...props to her!

p.s. keep up the good work though. just thought i would add my 4 cents...nice to see you babies are gonna carry the torch of moral exploration! good fun!

Last edited by scottb7; 10-18-2017 at 5:51 PM.
Old    TimelineX (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       10-18-2017, 6:59 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottb7 View Post
These companies are just throwing **** at the wall to see what will stick. Like what was said about research, no one really knows what makes stuff sells. Old saying is "50% of the marketing dollar is wasted. Problem is you don't know which 50%". My point is who says, sex sells. I enjoy seeing the girls ride, and I enjoy seeing them in the skimpy suits...But you think I am going to buy a boat or wakeboard or something, guys they show girls like that in some vid or something. Come on?

Companies are trying to maximize their profits for sure, but they are run by idiots for the most part, that don't know what to do so, they trust some marketing idiot, that says, sex sells, and we got to do this. So they do. And if their sales go up the marketing guys says, see look what i did. even though it could be because the economy is better and their customers got a raise, or their product improved cause their engineers did something right.

These girls are in a tough spot, cause like the weinstein thing, but not harrassment, someone is telling them, sex sells, so if you want this sponsorship you gotta wear this or that....or if they are not telling them that then the girls think they should dress like that and suggest it to get the sponsorship. either way it is sad. but it is all cause some idiot thinks sex sells...people might like to watch the video's with the girls like that,,,but you can't prove it makes them purchase anything. she is not a hypocrite. she is just doing the best with the talent and bs that exists that she is trying to navigate...just like all of us are in our own little microcosm worlds. we are all hypocrites when we don't stand up for what is right, and we slow down getting society to a more moral place.

all the economic talk is true except, since you can't prove sex sells, you can't prove any of it applies...you don't know if it increases demand....and even if you cite some damn study, you can't prove it crosses over to wakeboard boat purchases which are highly dependent on technical aspects of the wake, and crap like that...

patriarchy..yeah whatever...it is the freakin golden rule: he who has the gold rules...it started out as men, so i guess you are right...but not sure what that has to do with her wearing that stuff...if tomorrow all the companies were run by women instead, then the same dumb ass marketing person would say sex sells, you gotta wear this stuff. and the woman ceo would be like, uh, i don't know...ok...i guess so...cause they won't take the risk that they could be wrong, and they could lose their job.

companies are raising the price of boats cause that shizzle sells...too many rich bastards buying the stuff...and too many rich bastards financing the stuff for them...

"i am here to take more questions...i am mr credible"...

yeah, i am too. when you have been fired as many times as i have for standing up for what is moral and right let me know...you wanna compare? Has the attorney general called you and you had to rat out your boss? have you presented financial info at a board meeting and had a community board member asked you a question in front of the corrupt board chair and your boss and you had to make a decision then and there of what to say?

summary: she is doing the best she can to exist in the current system and correct it...props to her!

p.s. keep up the good work though. just thought i would add my 4 cents...nice to see you babies are gonna carry the torch of moral exploration! good fun!
I agree with and really like alot of what you said. Especially the old axiom of not know what works and what doesnt. Most of marketing really is that.

The only part I disagree with is your idea that "sex sells" isn't a proven concept. It's just about as proven as it gets, as far as marketing principles go. The point isn't that you are going to buy the wakeboard with the hottest rider representing it. The TL;dr of it is that the most important outcome for bigger companies and their marketing, is having your brand be the first thing that comes to mind when someone thinks of a particular thing. It's really that important. When I was buying my gear, I happened to hear alot of people talk about Ronix. So when I got sick of researching and couldn't decide what to gear to buy, I decided even if I didn't get the absolute best, I know I'm getting good enough just by buying Ronix. They successfully sold me on a board, bindings and rope that day. Without a single person actually "selling" me anything or directly marketing anything to me. For me it wasn't sexy models but probably just a coincidence of how often it was mentioned in the last X wakeboarding threads. So now if you use that idea......Seeing sexy people releases hormones and your body associates and remembers brands better because of it. It's most definitely proven. It's also been show to turn off certain types of buyers. But thats not a big issue.
Old    Justin Harrelson (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       10-19-2017, 8:32 AM Reply   
Has a single girl chimed in on this thread? That tells you a little about the wakeboard market.

Most people didn't get the whole Alliance awards last year. It was a satire. For example, Steele got the D-list celebrity award because in social media he is alway trying to seem glamorous. They picked on her because she posts tons of pictures of her butt. Sexist, maybe, but she flat out set herself up for it. They didn't say she wasn't a good wakeboarder. They just made fun of the fact that she shows her butt for likes. I read last years wake awards as a commentary on how we have all lost track of what is important in the sport. The joke failed for the most part, but satire is important. Sometimes it offends or fails--and that is okay. A world without humor is a world that I don't want to live in.

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