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Old     (chillaxin)      Join Date: Jun 2012       02-17-2015, 6:52 PM Reply   
A little bird dropped this in my inbox. Check out this new system. I believe there will be more info dropped tomorrow. Enjoy!
http://waketouch.com/media/AutoWake720HD.mp4
http://waketouch.com/media/WakeTouch720HD.mp4
http://waketouch.com
Old     (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-17-2015, 7:29 PM Reply   
Tell your little bird to work fuel burn into that system, then id be stoked!
Old     (chillaxin)      Join Date: Jun 2012       02-17-2015, 7:45 PM Reply   
Watch the video again. He already has a GPH option. It's pretty amazing what this system is capable of.
Old     (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-17-2015, 7:47 PM Reply   
He does!? Hell yeah! Ive been saying someone should do that for years. Its an insanely simple program, im glad someone finally did it. Honestly id get the most use out of the gph. The other stuff i already have dialed
Old     (brycejb328)      Join Date: Aug 2009       02-17-2015, 7:50 PM Reply   
Dang!! Makes past "innovations" look like amateur hour
Old     (LouZahr)      Join Date: Aug 2011       02-17-2015, 8:06 PM Reply   
Awesome. Sign me up!
Old     (augie_09)      Join Date: Mar 2011       02-17-2015, 9:00 PM Reply   
Can't tell how far submerged the hull is in the water.
Old     (laptom)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-18-2015, 2:33 AM Reply   
Mmmm, was waiting for a system like this, but their advertising is a bit misconceived in my opinion:

1. It will not tell you how deep the hull is in the water, only the angle from side 2 side & angle front to rear.
2, It will not tell you how your boat slides through the water (the 3rd dimension of angle measurement). Like the NSS and Surfgate systems, they angle your rear/front of your boat with respect of the traveling orientation.

When you want a full "auto wake" system like their advertising says, you need these 2 parameters.

Still a very good system and very usefull, never understood why CC/MC/BU never came up with this as the idea is not really new.
Old     (WABoating)      Join Date: Mar 2013       02-18-2015, 4:56 AM Reply   
Someone sent us a note about this thread and the questions you're raising. I'll chime in here...

1. The system DOES know how deep the hull is in the water. In the AutoWake video where the lines and text show the hull angles being measured, look to the left and you'll see the draft (nautical term for hull depth) being measured as well. This provides full 3 axis orientation data so the system can maintain the hull's relationship, and thus maintain the wave/wake.

2. We do have a technique for measuring Angle of Side Slip (AOSS), the technical term for what you're describing, that requires no additional instrumentation. It is derived from the data already available. If the buyer wants to use this technology with a "gate" style system they can enable that to measure, maintain, and display AOSS.

You're correct, you do need these parameters for a proper system. And we have them, and know how to use them. The question is, which manufacturer will offer this technology on their boats? {grin}

Hope this answers your questions. Ask away, we're happy to answer!
Old     (Redheadd)      Join Date: Apr 2014       02-18-2015, 5:59 AM Reply   
I hate surfing. Looks fun,for 5 min.
Old     (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       02-18-2015, 6:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by WABoating View Post
Someone sent us a note about this thread and the questions you're raising. I'll chime in here...

1. The system DOES know how deep the hull is in the water. In the AutoWake video where the lines and text show the hull angles being measured, look to the left and you'll see the draft (nautical term for hull depth) being measured as well. This provides full 3 axis orientation data so the system can maintain the hull's relationship, and thus maintain the wave/wake.

2. We do have a technique for measuring Angle of Side Slip (AOSS), the technical term for what you're describing, that requires no additional instrumentation. It is derived from the data already available. If the buyer wants to use this technology with a "gate" style system they can enable that to measure, maintain, and display AOSS.

You're correct, you do need these parameters for a proper system. And we have them, and know how to use them. The question is, which manufacturer will offer this technology on their boats? {grin}

Hope this answers your questions. Ask away, we're happy to answer!
So I don't really understand how you can measure some of these parameters without adding extra sensors. How can the sensors in a tablet possibly know an ACCURATE draft without a sensor on the hull?

I know you don't want to spill your secrets, but I'm not buying it without at least a high-level explanation.
Old     (cowwboy)      Join Date: Jul 2008       02-18-2015, 6:22 AM Reply   
So how much are the retrofit kits and where can we order them?
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-18-2015, 7:15 AM Reply   
Congrats on the new system launch, WA! I had no idea your system would be this in-depth! After seeing the video, I honestly see no reason for me to get rid of my '07 RZ2 any more with this as an option to add the newest bells and whistles for a fraction of the price! Seriously, that is an impressive system! I wish you the best of luck with it and hope you get a few mfr's under contract!

Question: Does it work with wakeboarding wakes? That's where we have a lot of problems. I go out, get the wake dialed in to where I want it and then hand the helm over to my wife and then I start riding and since my 195 lbs isn't in there anymore, the wake washes out to one side and we need to move people around while I'm 75' away.
Old     (Ewok01)      Join Date: Apr 2013       02-18-2015, 7:31 AM Reply   
timmyb, yes it works at wakeboarding wakes as well, I've seen the prototype boat and it is amazing how accurate the sensors are both at surfing speed and wakeboarding speed.
Old     (WABoating)      Join Date: Mar 2013       02-18-2015, 7:45 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
So I don't really understand how you can measure some of these parameters without adding extra sensors. How can the sensors in a tablet possibly know an ACCURATE draft without a sensor on the hull? I know you don't want to spill your secrets, but I'm not buying it without at least a high-level explanation.
We're happy to answer questions!

You're right, measuring draft requires a separate sensor. Marine draft sensors have been around for a long time. They just haven't been on wakeboats because nobody realized it matters what the HULL is doing - until now!

There are two main types of draft sensors in the industry. One works sort of like a tank sensor, the other works by measuring pressure (deeper = more pressure). Either works fine for AutoWake.

The other measurements are made via accelerometers in the tablet (though they could be mounted on the printed circuit board, if that's how the buyer wants to package things). Combine that with the draft sensor and we have a complete picture of what the hull is doing on 3 axes... and we can duplicate that even if things change, such as more/fewer passengers etc.

Don't hesitate to ask questions. If we can't answer them for confidentiality reasons we'll say so, but otherwise we'll tell you everything!
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-18-2015, 8:01 AM Reply   
Thanks guys! This is pretty exciting!
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-18-2015, 8:03 AM Reply   
Hey WA, I think you should start a thread and show the level of detail that you went into on your own boat's ballast system so these folks can appreciate your attention to detail and thoroughness...if you have time that is, I'm sure you're busy fielding questions from all over. So cool!
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-18-2015, 8:15 AM Reply   
Next question, does it know if a ballast bag is full or not? For example, say it is trying to auto-correct to get the right wake and it still needs more weight but there isn't anymore capacity. What happens in that scenario?
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       02-18-2015, 8:36 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redheadd View Post
I hate surfing. Looks fun,for 5 min.
Today is your lucky day my friend, cause this forum happens to have a wakesurf section where you can start your own thread about how you feel about that sport.

http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=87668

@WABoating

Still have not had time to watch those videos, but hats off to you for what you have designed.
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-18-2015, 8:51 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redheadd View Post
I hate surfing. Looks fun,for 5 min.
Good news, it's for WakeBOARDING too!

Quote:
timmyb, yes it works at wakeboarding wakes as well, I've seen the prototype boat and it is amazing how accurate the sensors are both at surfing speed and wakeboarding speed.
Old     (Redheadd)      Join Date: Apr 2014       02-18-2015, 8:54 AM Reply   
I'd rather catch a 1 lb bass then surf.... Am I the only one?
Old     (Redheadd)      Join Date: Apr 2014       02-18-2015, 8:55 AM Reply   
Lol just trolling sorry woke up to early. But in all seriousness this sounds like a great product.
Old     (augie_09)      Join Date: Mar 2011       02-18-2015, 9:10 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowwboy View Post
So how much are the retrofit kits and where can we order them?
i would guess a big manufacturer may want that same data to prove adoption before looking at a licensing deal? or perhaps not.

is it vapor ware at this point or have they developed BLE or wired integration into existing pumps/ballast gauges/etc..

Do current trim tab actuators even allow for reading current setting? If it's already deployed full way and boat still isn't leveling off, does this system tell fat pat to go sit in the bow?
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-18-2015, 9:31 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by augie_09 View Post
i would guess a big manufacturer may want that same data to prove adoption before looking at a licensing deal? or perhaps not.

is it vapor ware at this point or have they developed BLE or wired integration into existing pumps/ballast gauges/etc..

Do current trim tab actuators even allow for reading current setting? If it's already deployed full way and boat still isn't leveling off, does this system tell fat pat to go sit in the bow?
With all of the success of the retrofit surfgate, NSS, swell, etc kits that current manufacturers have had for owners of legacy boats, this seems like a no brainer. As in whoever buys the IP package will never in 1M years license this for retrofits. Ever. Period.

Manufacturer with best likelihood of success for this product, IMHO, is centurion. The ramfill boats have the ability to get nearly their best waves with factory ballast, and between cats, trim tab, and those big flappy things, there are many many potential variables which would be best controlled centrally by this system.

Or I guess maybe murphy/medalion?

Or then again I guess maybe lenco or bennet?
Old     (WABoating)      Join Date: Mar 2013       02-18-2015, 9:52 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
Or I guess maybe murphy/medalion?
Our guesses are as follows:

1) A boat maker buys it, then licenses it back to Murphy/Medallion/Faria/etc. to include it in the systems for the boat maker ONLY, thus making it an exclusive feature to that boat brand.

2) A helm company buys it, then offers it to those boat OEM's that buy their helm systems. Thanks to the patents, that helm company would be the ONLY one able to offer it, giving them a huge advantage in securing contracts with boat makers.

Quote:
Or then again I guess maybe lenco or bennet?
3) A company like Lenco, Bennett, etc. buys it to expand their product line in the marine market where they are already a player. Those guys are angry that the boat OEM's buy their actuators but ignore their helm actuator electronics (because the helm guys just integrate it into their own stuff). This would be a way for them to recapture and expand that business. They already sell helm electronics, so this would be a natural expansion of their product line and would put a new vendor into the helm systems business, giving boat makers another option.
Old     (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       02-18-2015, 10:23 AM Reply   
WABoating, are you located in Washington State? If so, where? I would love to see some of what you're doing in person.

Sounds like a really cool idea. It definitely takes automation to the next level.

Years ago, I used to have to explain to people what Perfect Pass was, and why it was so amazing. Now the majority of us wouldn't own a boat without it.
Old     (WABoating)      Join Date: Mar 2013       02-18-2015, 10:52 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by trayson View Post
WABoating, are you located in Washington State?
Used to be in Spokane. Now we are in Idaho, on waterfront property so we can do development right out of our back door!

Quote:
Years ago, I used to have to explain to people what Perfect Pass was, and why it was so amazing. Now the majority of us wouldn't own a boat without it.
Indeed... that's why we say AutoWake is like cruise control for your wake. People understand cruise control now, and extending that concept to wake control makes it pretty clear.
Old     (cowwboy)      Join Date: Jul 2008       02-18-2015, 10:52 AM Reply   
Looks to be the next $10k option on the $150k and climbing new boats.
Old     (Redheadd)      Join Date: Apr 2014       02-18-2015, 11:02 AM Reply   
Take it to shark tank!
Old     (riddick)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-18-2015, 12:23 PM Reply   
Cool idea. Thought of something similar a few years back, called it BABS- boat auto balancing system, however, unlike cruise control, it's nothing that a couple of lead bags can't correct. We would rather spend 30 sec moving lead around vs. draining ballast and making the wake that much smaller.

And for all of you shark tank fans out there: I've been around the scene for years, and since you are facing competition from fairly easy-to-use fill and drain systems, lead weight, and common sense- I'm out.

Side note: When you go in for a double-up or turn around, your wake is going to be out of balance due to that system unless they have an override feature for sensing turns.
Old     (cowwboy)      Join Date: Jul 2008       02-18-2015, 12:38 PM Reply   
Dampening would help with the issues your talking about brad. Same reason you don't see Lincolns, Cadillac, semis, etc dumping and adding air trying to overcome every bump in the road. Now if you are doing a powerturn the size of an entire lake. Then it would compensate.
I think it is an awesome system with tons of possibilities. But once it is picked up by a larger corp the advancement of the system will probably stumble and the costs will be extreme.
Old     (riddick)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-18-2015, 12:54 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowwboy View Post
Dampening would help with the issues your talking about brad. Same reason you don't see Lincolns, Cadillac, semis, etc dumping and adding air trying to overcome every bump in the road. Now if you are doing a powerturn the size of an entire lake. Then it would compensate.
I think it is an awesome system with tons of possibilities. But once it is picked up by a larger corp the advancement of the system will probably stumble and the costs will be extreme.
I do love power turns. BABS had a driving aid that assisted the driver in keeping a straight and honest line. If boat was running not in a straight line or turning, the sensor kicked in, the screen would alert the driver and disable any ballast adjustment
Old     (snork)      Join Date: Jun 2007       02-18-2015, 1:05 PM Reply   
There should be an electronic prob to insert in potential powerturning Arses and send 10amps their way when the maneuver is committed
Old     (Redheadd)      Join Date: Apr 2014       02-18-2015, 2:13 PM Reply   
So this is gonna advance the "sport" of wake surfing?.......IM OUT!
Old     (Ewok01)      Join Date: Apr 2013       02-19-2015, 9:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redheadd View Post
So this is gonna advance the "sport" of wake surfing?.......IM OUT!
Surfing wakes are finicky to hull orientation, but this system works on wakeboard wakes too. It'll help keep the boat level or give a very slight list to one side if you're a heel side hero. Whatever you set as your parameters, it'll maintain that hull attitude.

The power turn question is very interesting. I know the guy who built this system and I've seen it running on his boat. I bet he could put some boat driving instructional videos or tips on how to avoid power turns by teaching the drivers how to decelerate and make an idle turn to pick up the downed rider. I'll send him a text and suggest that.
Old     (WABoating)      Join Date: Mar 2013       02-19-2015, 9:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewok01 View Post
Surfing wakes are finicky to hull orientation, but this system works on wakeboard wakes too.
It works on SKI wakes as well. Skiers are just as finicky as surfers or boarders - they want the smoothest glass possible in the wake behind the boat. Minor changes in hull orientation can trash the glass, so even a skier cares about hull orientation.

AutoWake can control trim tabs, so even on a ski boat that doesn't have ballast it is possible to measure the hull and keep it where it produces the smoothest possible glass for the skier. If something changes, AutoWake can adjust the tabs automatically to keep the hull where it belongs - probably before the driver or skier realize anything changed (because the tabs move relatively quickly).

So this is not just something for boarders and surfers. If you care about the wake behind the boat, AutoWake makes things better.
Old     (corerider)      Join Date: May 2008       02-19-2015, 10:10 AM Reply   
There really isn't any reason why this couldn't be used on any boat with some sort of level controls (tabs, ballast, I/O trim). This could be used for regular pleasure boats up to larger cruisers to keep the driver from having to deal with trim while underway. It really is a slick feature if it works well.
Old     (riddick)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-19-2015, 12:31 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by corerider View Post
There really isn't any reason why this couldn't be used on any boat with some sort of level controls (tabs, ballast, I/O trim). This could be used for regular pleasure boats up to larger cruisers to keep the driver from having to deal with trim while underway. It really is a slick feature if it works well.
Sea Ray has a Dynamic Running Surface system by Lenco which is pretty much Lenco's Auto Glide Boat Leveling System.

Last edited by riddick; 02-19-2015 at 12:39 PM.
Old     (Ewok01)      Join Date: Apr 2013       02-19-2015, 2:13 PM Reply   
I just got done texting with the inventor and we came up with a few good ideas. Have the screens in the boat play a little intro video for No-Powerturns when you crank the engine, with audio played over the boats sound system.

It could also detect when a power turn was being initiated and yell at the driver in the most annoying Fran Dresher voice with a flashing screen, and when the bad driver finally powers down, it could Rick Roll the driver with custom lyrics:

"Always gonna power up
Never gonna power down
Never gonna slow this boat down and desert you
Never gonna dip the bow
Never gonna slow it down
Never gonna leave clean water and help you"

Maybe not quite as effective as an electrified anal probe but it's possible with this technology.
Old     (WABoating)      Join Date: Mar 2013       03-18-2015, 12:12 PM Reply   
Since our announcement, we've been getting a lot of behind-the-scenes questions about draft sensors. Bottom line: Boat manufacturers think marine industrial draft sensors cost too much. So just like we solved the over-expensive helm instrumentation problem, we have developed a robust and economical wakeboat draft sensor and we thought folks here might appreciate seeing it. (Note: We're cross-posting this to a few places.)

Our sensor design consists of a section of one inch PVC pipe with a male threaded fitting on its bottom end and a cap with a small hole on its top end. The pipe screws into a standard thruhull+ball valve just like a ballast pump, and stands roughly vertically in the hull (it does not have to be perfectly vertical). This allows water to fill the pipe from the bottom, seeking a common level with the water surrounding the hull.

On either side of the pipe you can see two strips of metal foil. The tops of the foils connect to a small, waterproof module attached to the top of the pipe. Those of you familiar with electronic components will recognize that the foils act as two plates of a capacitor. The module at the top measures that capacitance and reports it as an analog voltage on one of the three wires at the top (the other two power the module).

The capacitance between those two foils changes as the material between them known as the dielectric changes. We use the water rising up and down within the pipe to cause a huge change in the capacitance, which we can then measure and report.

When the tube is completely empty (hull out of water), the output voltage is 1.0VDC. When the tube is completely full (hull deep in water), the output voltage is 5.0VDC. And as the water levels varies up and down, so does the output a nice voltage indication of hull draft!

Our draft sensor is essentially bombproof. It has no moving parts and requires zero maintenance. Nothing electrical touches the water. It can be built to virtually any height (the one in the photo is 24 inches tall) so it is compatible with hulls of any draft and freeboard. It is rugged; the production version is covered in heat shrink (we left it off this one so you could see the details). The components are off-the-shelf and available today in production quantities. Best of all, cost to build is under $40 and it can be assembled by traditional employees in a boat factory.

Can you tell we enjoy solving problems with technology?
Old     (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       03-18-2015, 12:16 PM Reply   
This is all extremely impressive.

Any luck getting meetings with major inboard manufacturers?
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       03-18-2015, 1:14 PM Reply   
That's awesome! Couldn't you also use this same type of sensor to know how much water is in a ballast bag? I could see that being helpful in your system so that you know when a bag/tank is already at capacity and the system would know not to try and add more water to it. Knowing you, you already have that problem solved though.
Old     (cowwboy)      Join Date: Jul 2008       03-18-2015, 1:25 PM Reply   
Capacitance would be hard to do in a bag as the probe would have to be stretched out to the top of where the bag could go.
Now a small pressure transducer built into your lowest drain port would be very accurate and already manufactured and easily sourced.
Old     (Ewok01)      Join Date: Apr 2013       03-18-2015, 1:53 PM Reply   
Ballast bag sensors are not required with a draft sensor. What's important is how deep the boat sits in the water, which is accomplished with a draft sensor. It takes into account how much fuel, beer in cooler, gear, and changes to people, dropping someone off, picking someone up, it's all measured with a draft sensor. The other critical component of re-creating and maintaining your perfect wake is the angle of list (or zero list) and the bow rise. In other words, the attitude of the boat relative to the surface of the water, or horizon.
Old     (cowwboy)      Join Date: Jul 2008       03-18-2015, 2:08 PM Reply   
Yes.
But a full or empty sensor would be good so you don't run pumps dry or have a pump running water out the overflow for 20 minutes..
As with anything truly automated more data is always better then less.
Old     (WABoating)      Join Date: Mar 2013       03-18-2015, 4:38 PM Reply   
WakeTouch/AutoWake can know whether pumps are running empty, bags are full/empty, etc. by examining the power being sent to each pump. If you look on the website at the photos of the printed circuit board, you'll see some circuitry near each set of relays. That circuitry lets the microcontroller watch what each pump is doing. That's why you don't need pump timers or bag-weighing scales or whatever... the system can determine everything electronically without them. (If you want to know more, read the patents... they go into fine detail about everything, including this question.)

However, if it makes people happy, you can always pay for and add more sensors! {grin}
Old     (WABoating)      Join Date: Mar 2013       03-18-2015, 5:44 PM Reply   
Here's a photo of the production version with the heavy protective heat shrink:

(tried to add it to the earlier message but the site wouldn't allow edits after 10 minutes)
Old     (hco)      Join Date: Jun 2006       03-18-2015, 7:14 PM Reply   
Could see actuators and pumps burning out from constant adjustment. Going to take some serious fine-tuning of the programming to figure out how rapidly & often the boat's systems should respond to the environment that the boat is in. The lake depth, direction of wind, chop, and waves are all variables that need to be accounted for. Love the idea, and think that it definitely shows promise. Definitely needs some good money thrown at it though.

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