Need help w/ '05 Supra 21v...PLEASE

This is the second weekend in a row that our boat has quit running half way through the day! Here is a link to last weekends problem.
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/576473.html?1210118878

Thought we had the problem fixed but maybe not. Today, we spent all morning and afternoon Wakeboarding and riding. No problems until we stopped for about an hour to get ice cream. Got back in the boat and it fired up, but ran really rough. Shut it off and tried again. This time it ran for about a second and quit. Pulled the fuel filter and blew it out and put it back, same problem. This time, however, an '07 21v was having the same problem. What could it be?

Vapor Lock or fuel filter. I had the same problem with my 21V. I thought it was vapor lock which Indmar engines have had some problems with but mine ended up being the fuel filter. If there is any resistance when you blow through it , you need to replace it. You should be able to blow through it and it should not have any resistance at all.
Good Luck

im with e on this one.. vapor lock or fuel filter or both? good luck!

not the fuel filter. Replaced it last weekend with a brand new one. When I removed it today while still on the water, it was crystal clear when I blew though it with no resistance at all. The thing that puzzles me is the other '07 21v had the exact same problem at the exact same time and day. I asked him where he pumped gas at and it was on the opposite side of town. If it is vapor lock, what would cause it and how can it be fixed?

so we are clear, (pun intended) vapor lock is an obstruction to the flow of fuel to the engine, caused by the formation of bubbles in the gasoline as a result of overheating. you might check one of three things: first, your in-tank fuel pump or pressure regulator may be a faulty component. you should focus on the pressure regulator first, because if it fails it would not allow fuel to return properly to the fuel tank. This could cause the vapor lock problem because it would literally boil any stagnate or stationary fuel before it gets to the injector. Have an engine mechanic confirm that the pressure regulator is within factory specifications. Second, the in-tank fuel pump itself may be the problem. That in-tank pump is of a type that is highly susceptible to damage from contamination. As the pump begins to wear, its output becomes weaker. If the pump is weak, the engine will lose power after the pump has warmed up. again, have a technician confirm that the output pressure of the pump is within factory specs, especially after the engine has warmed up. and thirdly, the final possibility is that the fuel lines may be heated beyond design parameters. this typically happens when the fuel lines and exhaust manifold follow each other too closely along the block or near superheated components of your engine and/or engine compartment. vapor lock is pretty common in these boats, as my friend dealt with it all last summer.. hope this helps and good luck! let us know what you find out..

If there is water in your gas, and you have a paper element canister filter, the paper soaks up the water and wont come out in the gas when you dump it out. The boat will still run like crap. Replace the fuel filter again and drain the gas if practical. It's early in the season, you probably have a lot of condensation in the tank if you didn't fill for the winter at '07 prices;) You can drain the gas into a bucket and soak the water off with a paper towel and put it back in. Just don't fire up a marlboro red during the procedure.

Robert-I've experienced this a few times. Dealer has done some trouble shooting on another 21v. Here are some tips:

1. On hot days that you sit for an hour or so open the engine cover for 5 min or so to get cool air into the bay.

2. Dip a towel in the water place it on the fuel pump on the motor. This will help cool the fuel so the vapor turns back into liquid.

3. If nothing else works, there is a fuel rail pressure relief valve on the port side of the motor towards the bow above the valve cover. Take the cap off (looks like a tire pressure valve) and depress it and let some of the fuel out. This will get some of the bubbles out. Obvioulsy take the appropiate precautions when you do this.

Basically this is a happens when the heat from the motor boils the fuel. An hour of sitting seems to be the magic number, if you sit longer it'll correct itself or if you don't sit that long, it doesn't have a chance to heat up the fuel rail.

I have come to the conclusion that the problem is vapor lock from talking to two different dealers in the area. I was also informed on Supra's website that indmar has a solution that involves a second low pressure fuel pump installed closer to the gas tank. I was unable to get in touch with my dealer to see if he has heard of this option but hope to be in contact with them tomorrow. Have any of you heard of this option? Here is a link to my other discussion on the supra forum.

http://www.supraboats.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=2010

Our lake is heated. Our dealer said that because the temperature of the water is above normal that this is causing a higher rate of Vapor Lock. If there is an option to fix the problem instead of working around that would be better because the water is not that warm now but will get worse as the season progresses. If it is vapor locking now, this summer is going to be a pain.

Your lake is heated? Haha, mean. By What?

^^^^^ By a power plant.

Oh, haha, why didn't I think of that...

A heated lake was too crazy an idea to have a simple solution like that, in my mind anyway.

Unless it was heated naturally by hot springs.

I had a few instances of vapor lock last year on my 325 '06 21V. I removed the plastic cover that is on top of the engine and have not had any more issues.

I emailed indmar last night and soon after received a reply close to 9:00 the same night! That is great customer service in my book! Anyway, here is their reply:

Some of the information posted regarding the two pump system that is now standard on our engines is correct but that system does not necessarily apply to your engine. The two pump system was primarily designed for the 340 HP catalyst equipped engines that create extra heat in the bilge because of the catalyst. This condition did not occur till the 2007 model year. We had no vaporlock issues in the 2005 and 2006 model year before the catalyst engines. I suspect that if you are indeed experiencing a vapor lock situation that it is being caused by some other issue. The most likely is winter blend fuel. Every year in the spring there is left over fuel that is blended to vaporize at lower temperatures for ease of starting in the winter. The problem is that when it gets warmer, this fuel vaporizes too easily and leads to vapor locking. This condition generally passes after a short period of time ... after the winter blend fuel is used up. Did you buy your boat from a private individual or from a dealer? If you bought from a private individual, contact them if you can and ask them if they experienced this problem. If they say no, just wait it out and buy fuel from someplace that you know sells lots of gas. If they did have a problem, then there are some other things to check like the fuel tank vent, the anti siphon valve and even the fuel line routing.

Although you could choose to add a second fuel pump to your engine, it would not be covered under Indmar's warranty. I suspect that you do not need the second pump and that by just being patient your problem will go away.

Larry Engelbert
Indmar Service
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Larry Engelbert
Indmar Marine Engines

Tpyle, I've been running like that for a couple hundred hours. Although I don't have this issue often it still occurs every once in a while.

Robert-

I saw that last night on the Supra boards, I'm glad I lost my login and got locked out for a bit or I'd probably be banned for a bit there.

To be honest, we haven't had our boat long enough to disagree with what we are being told. The only thing I have to go buy is our previous boat which was a 2000 MB B52. The only thing we had to do with it was fill it up with gas, put it in the water, turn the blower on for a few seconds, crank it and go. We never had to raise the engine compartment or turn the blower on other than for safety. We have put nearly 30hrs. on our Supra and it has vapor locked twice. We plan on changing our habits and seeing if it happens again. I don't mind adapting new habits if it fixes the problem. Both dealers I have spoken with have been EXTREMELY nice and easy to work with and like I said before Indmar responded well beyond regular business hours. What I am being told makes since to me. If I am having the same problems in a few weeks I will start to discredit what I am being told. Again the service and responses I have received on this issue have well exceeded my expectations and I thank everyone for their help!

Don't disagree with Supra/Indmars williness to help, but don't agree with "just be patient" or that "We had no vaporlock issues in 2005 and 2006 MY". Like I said I don't have the issue often but a couple of Larry's comments struck a nerve. BTW this is the only issue that has not been resolved for me. There is a "workaround" but no "solution".

I had a 2006 21v with electronic fuel injection (EFI) and with over 160hrs. I never had a vapor lock issue or experienced what you have described. We put the boat in the water, turned on the blower for a bit, and fired it up . Even in 100 degree plus weather I never had a problem with the boat starting or any other problem for that matter. I know two other people with a 21v and they have not had this problem either. Sounds like there is something wrong with your boat which sucks, sorry.

I used to have a different model 2004 boat that was not EFI. I had all kinds of deiseling and vapor lock problems with it however, those problems only occured in a very warm watered lake that I frequented (78+ some times) nice hunh !!! It ran perfect in all cold water lakes so water temp plays a role in my opinion.

Yea, I think water temp plays a role as well. Our lake is already 69-73 depending on how close you are to the hot hole. The same day another '07 21v had the exact same issue as ours. I think that 2 different boats of different years and hours indicate a problem other than just our boat. I think the lake water, boating habits, and winter blend fuel have a lot to do with our problem. Hopefully we can change our habits and we might be able to workaround the problem. I just hate working around problems and not solving them.

(Message edited by cocheese on May 13, 2008)

I had this happen 2x on my 07 w 340 w CAT. Both were after about 1/2 hour pause in riding. The second time my son Nick was with me. He is now the sales manager at the dealership and is learning about service. He poured about a quart of lake water slowly and directly on the fuel filter to cool it down. It started right up

Is your son working at Knoxville Watersports? If so, your son is the one who sold us the boat. We bought it this winter just before Christmas and he said he was heading back to IN for Christmas. I called Nick and he told me the same thing you just said. Is it the fuel filter or the fuel pump that you cool? I think he told me the fuel pump is what he poured the water on. Your son and Knoxville Watersports were and still are one of our favorite dealers! Too bad they are over three hours away!