Upgrading subwoofer questions

I have used the search button and found a couple threads but not exactly what I was looking for. My 22ssv orginally came with a 10inch infinity basslink that was self powered and I dont think it was really marine grade although it did last about 7 years. So now since it was self powered i need a nw sub and amp. I have been looking at the Wetsounds xs-10fa and am wondering if I will get the same bass if not better from this sub. I want to go with a 10 so that I can keep the size of the box to a minimum. Also would a kicker 400.1 be enough to power this? A wetsounds sub is in the budget but now a wetsounds amp with it.

You'll probably double your bass production with that sub and amp combination, if not more. Take a look at Exile subs and amps too a lot of guys are getting excellent results with their products. They're very high end but don't hurt the wallet so much. They make a 10" driver that is shallow mount that you could pair with one of their S500.1's in a small sealed or vented box.

Adam,

David at Earmark has been having incredible success with the JL Audio 10w6v2 in a ported enclosure. I know for a fact that you could order a box and woofer from him that would exactly fit your boat. They have done a lot of 22ssv's. I have heard the 10w6 ported in one of his boxes and it is incredible, really hard to beleive that it is only a 10" woofer.

I love Wetsounds and think Exile is a great product too, but neither one of them is on par with the JL 10w6v2 in an Earmark ported enclosure.

He could also probably hook you up with a JL XD amp. You will get over the phone install walk thru from them as well if you buy their product.

^^^All true but it doesn't sound like a $800+ sub and enclosure are in his budget.

Adam, whats the supporting cast? i.e your interiors and tower speakers? You'll want to try an line up a sub and enclosure that compliments them rather than under or overwhelm them.

Originally Posted by murphy_smith

Adam,

David at Earmark has been having incredible success with the JL Audio 10w6v2 in a ported enclosure. I know for a fact that you could order a box and woofer from him that would exactly fit your boat. They have done a lot of 22ssv's. I have heard the 10w6 ported in one of his boxes and it is incredible, really hard to beleive that it is only a 10" woofer.

I love Wetsounds and think Exile is a great product too, but neither one of them is on par with the JL 10w6v2 in an Earmark ported enclosure.
He could also probably hook you up with a JL XD amp. You will get over the phone install walk thru from them as well if you buy their product.

Ahahahahaha. I'd put the Exile subs against anything out there and that's coming from a JL fan.

My budget is going to be 400 - 500 dollars. RIght now I have the inifinty tower speakers with infinty amp. JBL 4 channel amp that powers the 4 infinity cabin speakers. This is what came in the boat when I got it. The sub that went out was an inifinty basslink which was self powered. Also I am in jacksonville florida and dont have an exile or wetsounds dealer local or within driving distance that I have found. I check both web sites for dealers and had no luck. Exile showed one about 30 miles from me called soundwaves but their number is disconnected. My zip code is 32259 if anyone has better luck finding dealers. I like the exile and the reviews I have read. My only problem is shipping since most of these companies are going to be cross country.

Adam, give my office a call at 877-938-7757 and ask for Justin or Omar and they can find someone close or what else we can do to help out.

Tim
Wet Sounds

Is the Xtec 10 the only 10" woofer that Exile makes. It is the only one that I can find on their website.

If that is the case, I find it really hard to beleive that 10" slim desing woofer can compete with argueably one of the best 10" woofers on the market.

Adam, to answer your question, your kicker amp will power a 10" woofer just fine. The amp will be pushed pretty hard since 400 watts is on the mid to low end power handlilng spectrum for most 10" woofers.

If it were me, I would spend the money on getting the right sub and box and seeing how you like it with your current amp. You can always upgrade the amp down the road, don't have to do it all at once.

Originally Posted by murphy_smith

Is the Xtec 10 the only 10" woofer that Exile makes. It is the only one that I can find on their website.

If that is the case, I find it really hard to beleive that 10" slim desing woofer can compete with argueably one of the best 10" woofers on the market.

It sounded like a general statement, yeah they don't really mess with 10's.

cool...i have never heard an exile sub...would like to though

Originally Posted by murphy_smith

cool...i have never heard an exile sub...would like to though

I had 2-12w6v2's in my last boat and the big 12's sound like they do ported with way more ouput to me. They will take 2500 rms all day, which is what I run to my sub. Can't do that with the chineese made crap.

I have (1) 12w6v2 is a very solid sealed enclouse firing into the outer hull under the dash. It keeps up with the 4 pro 80's. Everyone tells me it sounds balanced so I have never thought about adding to the sub setup. There was a time that I considered a Boston SPG 555 with the passive radiator...then I got married, bought a house...and realized it was a lot esaier to convince the wife we needed hardwood floors in the house versus a new subwoofer set up when the old one is fine.

Your boat must boom. What amp are you using and how many batteries in the boat?

It sounded like a general statement, yeah they don't really mess with 10's.

I wish they'd make a BIG 10! I'd be all over it.

My recommending the Xtec was based on his wanting a small box. I'll be putting one in my golf cart this winter.

Nu, was your last box sealed or bass reflex? You've told me that your one 12 now beats both of those.

Boston SPG 555 with the passive radiator

Thats been on my radar for a couple years now too but I just dropped some serious coin on a new enclosure for my JBL's between that and the cost of the JBL's its been hard to replace them.

Adam,
We've been doing the local Supra/Moomba dealer's boats for years. The under helm specifics on the '03 Supra model escapes me though. If there is no floor hump then this is a walk in the park. If it has a high and angled floor hump then this requires a specialized sub enclosure and brackertry in order to avoid losing leg/foot room and not having to butcher the hump. You can easily verify which is the case. We stock both the basic and specialized enclosures.
Wetsounds has a new and true acoustic suspension (parameters for small sealed box) woofer (SS10D2) available that originated from their ATV line. I believe its slightly less expensive than the free-air and should suit your needs.
You do not want to use a true free-air (infinite-baffle type) woofer in a small sealed box even though a box program may say this is permissable. The short version is it won't sound as good. Also, avoid a slim line woofer unless the application dictates that this is your only alternative (behind the seat of a pickup truck for example). The shallow architecture and construction results in a compromise in performance. Even the best shallow mount woofer (the JL Audio) gives up some efficiency which is something that you can ill-afford in a boat open environment.
A JL Audio J2 monoblock amplifier will fit the bill perfectly. An amplifier, woofer and basic enclosure is at the threshold of your stated budget.
Don't worry about the 'best' woofer from this or that brand perspective. Its far more important that you make a selection based on application and matched components. There is no universal 'best', just what fits your particular needs the best.

David
Earmark Marine

Hey, you guys on West coast...have you ever heard of Mr. Marv

He builds subwoofer boxes and they are freaking incredible and his price is good. His day job is master cabinet builder and he does this on the side. Actually, he said that he could drop building cabinets and make a pretty sweet living on enclosures alone. haven't used him personally but heard and seen his work.

Check out his site: http://community.webtv.net/MarvsPlace/MarvsPlace

Originally Posted by hatepain

I wish they'd make a BIG 10! I'd be all over it.

My recommending the Xtec was based on his wanting a small box. I'll be putting one in my golf cart this winter.

Nu, was your last box sealed or bass reflex? You've told me that your one 12 now beats both of those.

The JL's were sealed and Line-x'd in JL spec custom built boxes, internally braced, blah blah blah. I would say it's about the same overall output wise now as with the 2 jl's sealed but just a different sound being ported now vs sealed. I prefer a properly built and tuned ported enclosure vs a sealed box.

Murph - I'm running the Exile xi2500.1 to it.

Dang that is a big amp

BTW...anyone know when the XM 9's are coming out?

Originally Posted by murphy_smith

Dang that is a big amp

BTW...anyone know when the XM 9's are coming out?

Sometime this winter. I'm actually more excited about something else they are working on though. Stay tuned .

I've got 2 golf cart batts in the boat 242 ah, probably add 2 more this winter when the boat goes back under the knife.

Hey, you guys on West coast...have you ever heard of Mr. Marv

No never heard of him but it looks as though he builds some damn nice stuff.

The JL's were sealed and Line-x'd in JL spec custom built boxes, internally braced, blah blah blah. I would say it's about the same overall output wise now as with the 2 jl's sealed but just a different sound being ported now vs sealed. I prefer a properly built and tuned ported enclosure vs a sealed box

OK. Yeah your new sub and box sound awesome to be sure

Originally Posted by hatepain

No never heard of him but it looks as though he builds some damn nice stuff.



OK. Yeah your new sub and box sound awesome to be sure

Yeah thanks, look forward to see what you came up with. Those pics you sent me were rediculous, definitely a custom setup.

Those pics you sent me were rediculous, definitely a custom setup.

Thanks, I'll post em up soon.

guys guys guys -

Ok, I'mchuckling now. You all are like a pack of Jackals - hehe. As to the Op's question, you should really take a look at your budget and how much performance you'd like to achieve.

From the Exile point of view, there are several products not on our website. It's all getting ready to change in a few weeks so stay tuned. If you need something specific answered, you can shoot me a pm or call the office at 888-249-0970.

Without blasting off into technical talk spec speak, I will say that my preference for boats is a 12" woofer every time. Usually when people are upgrading they are starting with a free air 10 that they have come to the realization that it was slammed into helm or kickplate and doesnt give them the low end extension they'd like to hear. Complicate the situation a bit further and everyone has a friend on the water that has a setup that just slams... so they start to inquire about the upgrade options. My advice is this....

Pick a 12" woofer of whatever brand you choose and upgrade. Most brands offer different performance. In the Exile line up we have a 400W / 600W / 1600W woofer that offer different levels of OMG bass! The bottom line is in the marine environment a 12" woofer is the way to go if you want a sub to keep up with the 1000+ watts or so coming off your tower setup.

I'm sure the earmark 10W6 package sounds good, I've no doubt earmark is capable install wise. But if your going to spend 400+ on a woofer in the super woofer class, I'd spend 200 more and get a 12" version and have it custom fit (regardless of the brand)

just my two cents

-Brian
Exile Audio

Just a side note on woofer construction. They have to take some extreme measures in creating a woofer to stand up to the abuse of several thousand watts. It may use multiple spiders and heavier joints to avoid fatigue and stand up to the mechanical stresses. The voice coil may use a heavier gauge winding for greater thermal capacity which results in a decidedly longer winding to maintain the same impedance. And this in turn adds considerable mass. So the speaker will give up something in another performance area like transient response, ets,etc. Building a vehicle suspension for the rigors of the BAJA will affect its ability to provide a comfortable ride in the city. The trade offs are unavoidable. You would be shocked to know how few world wide manufacturers there are for speaker parts. You would also be shocked to know how many speaker builders are true designers rather than importers or marketing companies. Very few. Fewer have finite element analysis (despite there claims), other design tools in-house and on-staff speaker engineers. There is alot of voodoo and propaganda out there. I've worked with real speaker engineers in the past so I know enough to see through the bramha. So its unlikely that one woofer manufacturer with limited resources will hold design advantages over many of the others. Yet each claims to be the best and admits to no compromises. In advance this rant has not been directed at any particular manufacturer or end user of their products. Just trying to establish a little reality. Again, application and balanced designs should take precedence over looking at products by pure brand preference or on an exclusive basis.

David
Earmark Marine

Murph -

XM9 is one of 8 new Exile products that will launch early 2011. Things are busy on the product design front right now...

-Brian

erroneous erroneous on both accounts"

I'm taking my JL subwoofer and going home....j/k this forum is great. Good info from all.

Brian cant wait to see what you guys are coming out with as I am planning on redoing my tower set up this winter was thinking four xm7's but sounds like it might be four xm9's??

With the right 10-inch bass-reflex alignment you might have more effective radiating surface area than with a sealed 12-inch. And the woofer is better damped and controlled through the tuned region.
A ported box in a boat definitely takes the governer off. So I'm not surprised that one ported 12-inch would have more output than two sealed 10-inch woofers. Try a sealed 12 against two sealed 10s for a true comparison. Otherwise that is definitely not an apples to apples comparison. Personally I don't like putting woofers with massive motor structures in a small sealed box unless its in the confined cabin of a vehicle. When setting up a system for all the various boats and their unique restraints, I want a choice of both a 10 and a 12. I might select a single ported 10 over a single sealed 12 if that is all the available displacement I have. If a vendor only has 12s to offer he will naturally push 12s. If a vendor only has a free-air 10 then he will push his lone woofer for small box usage. The inverse is often seen as well. But I am driven by the real world application.

David
Earmark Marine

Harold - since you are local. shoot me a pm and you can stop by the office and I'll show you a few things..

Murph - I'm sure that sub of yours rocks man!

I think this was the best thing said in the entire thread...." Again, application and balanced designs should take precedence over looking at products by pure brand preference or on an exclusive basis." --David; Earmark

-Brian
Exile Audio

Brian will do maybe next week I could stop by I currently have a couple krypt hlcd's with 150 watts RMS and they aren't bad you can hear them no problem while wake boarding but I want more I have the interior fairly dialed in I used a 12 inch sub in a ported box like suggested and have been more than happy with the results

Adam,

I can offer some real world experience with that setup. I upgraded my sub a couple years ago to a XS-10FA and a Kicker 400.1 to drive it. I bought the setup to replace the stock clarion free air setup that the boat came with. Long story short, that setup is now for sale.

The first season I ran the sub free air in the stock location. It was quite a bit better than the Clarion sub but still didn't come close to keeping up to the tower. The next season I mounted the XS-10FA in a small sealled enclosure. This was another step forward but still wasn't what I was hoping for. Next season I changed to a JL Audio 13W6V2 with 1200 watts RMS in a custom sealed enclosure, and it is just about right. It is still not overkill.

For a boat my advice would be to go with a bigger sub at least 12 inches as others have mentioned. Regardless of the brand. Otherwise I fear you will be wasting your money. Remember I say this even though am trying to sell the exact setup you are considering.

My 0.02

Originally Posted by david_e_m

With the right 10-inch bass-reflex alignment you might have more effective radiating surface area than with a sealed 12-inch. And the woofer is better damped and controlled through the tuned region.
A ported box in a boat definitely takes the governer off. So I'm not surprised that one ported 12-inch would have more output than two sealed 10-inch woofers. Try a sealed 12 against two sealed 10s for a true comparison. Otherwise that is definitely not an apples to apples comparison. Personally I don't like putting woofers with massive motor structures in a small sealed box unless its in the confined cabin of a vehicle. When setting up a system for all the various boats and their unique restraints, I want a choice of both a 10 and a 12. I might select a single ported 10 over a single sealed 12 if that is all the available displacement I have. If a vendor only has 12s to offer he will naturally push 12s. If a vendor only has a free-air 10 then he will push his lone woofer for small box usage. The inverse is often seen as well. But I am driven by the real world application.

David
Earmark Marine

Good points David but I think you're using a rather large paint brush with some of your statements. I'm pretty confident that when Brian says "custom fit" for the 12" he's not talking about the cookie cutter rectangle slot ported boxes you're cranking out and recommending at your shop, have on your website , and that you're stuffing under the dash and in the passenger storage compartments of these boats you're doing. I agree not much you can do for airspace in a box when stuffing a rectangle box into a non rectangle area.

He's talking about a truely "Custom Fit" design that takes into account all useable airspace in a location such as under the dash taking advantage of the different angles and height adjustments in a given location for a truely custom fit application, you know kinda like what they are building over there at Exile with their PVC sheet CNC'd boxes. Not an off the shelf rectangle box that has some Line-X sprayed on just the outside of the ported box.

Just another perspective.

i have a 10w6 in my truck running of a jl 500/1 sealed and it has great sound, and slams. with enough power in a ported enclosure i bet it is a little louder for sure. i agree with save up and get a 12. and get a box from earmark unless whoever builds it for you does it right, which usually isn't the case for marine applications.

I notice the jl j2 is not marine grade but was recommended. Whats the difference in it and the marine series?

Thanks Sean. Sounds like the same exact setup i was going so i guess i will pass on it.

NuBu,
I wasn't speaking of any particular brand or approach before but I'm kinda glad you brought up a few of the issues since I have some very defined opinions on some of these.
If you look in our installation gallery you will see custom-fit boxes that feature multiple angles and are absolutely stealth in the way that they fit under the dash of a Supra 24 and 22V. There is no loss of leg room and the enclosure is elevated off the sole. There is no inherent mildew trap where moisture is held between the box and carpeted deck. The port and the woofer radiate into the same airspace rather than into different cavities/airspace. This avoids conflicting phase issues, but not because of the length of low frequency waveforms that we're dealing with, but specifically because of the effect of the rear port firing into the underhelm cavity separate from the woofer's direct radiation. The rear cavity specifically acts as a second aperiodic enclosure that alters the phase of the port's output. Anyone with considerable marine installation experience knows that if you have one woofer enclosure within a locker with another identical woofer enclosure directly radiating into open space from the other side that they sum poorly. This constitutes the difference between a precision tuned bass-reflex enclosure and a clumsy ported box. And, this is very different from a rear-firing ported enclosure in a home speaker because both the woofer and port radiate into the same airspace in that case. However, the better home speakers do caution users to space the ported enclosure away from the wall to avoid colouration. The function of a bass-reflex enclosure is to invert the output of the port so that it is in-phase with the output of the driver over a prescribed bandwidth. Anything that disturbs the tuning will impact certain aspects of the sound quality. I'm also a fan of giving a woofer's and port's output space to breath without obstuction as a contributing element of sound quality. I'm not being overly critical of an alternate approach. It still gets the job done for a party system. However, it does speak to the point that there may be far more involved in planning and designing a top system than most people realize.

David
Earmark Marine

Adam,
If you are in a coastal community then you should definitely go with a marine amplifier. If you are inland then choosing a good mounting location is key and an automotive product serves many boaters without issue. But be careful with wire looms that deliver water to the amplifier or overhead drink holders without drains. Even conformal coated marine electronics have little resistance to direct water exposure.

David
Earmark Marine

im inland so it should be ok. I was looking at the JL J2 and it looks like a good amp and in my price range. Now I need to find a sub. I may have to go with something other than the wetsounds as sean has stated.

Adam,

If you are looking for more output than a 10 inch. You can take a look at the XS-12. The XS-10FA is a free air sub. Free air subs are great for ease of install but you will always get better results with a sub in an enclosure and a sub designed for an enclosure. The XS-12 dual 4 ohm in parallel will be a 2 ohm load. On the JL J2500.1, you will get 500 watts which is perfect power for that sub.

Tim
Wet Sounds

Stay away from paper cone woofers as well in a coastal environment.

Originally Posted by david_e_m

NuBu,
I wasn't speaking of any particular brand or approach before but I'm kinda glad you brought up a few of the issues since I have some very defined opinions on some of these.
If you look in our installation gallery you will see custom-fit boxes that feature multiple angles and are absolutely stealth in the way that they fit under the dash of a Supra 24 and 22V. There is no loss of leg room and the enclosure is elevated off the sole. There is no inherent mildew trap where moisture is held between the box and carpeted deck. The port and the woofer radiate into the same airspace rather than into different cavities/airspace. This avoids conflicting phase issues, but not because of the length of low frequency waveforms that we're dealing with, but specifically because of the effect of the rear port firing into the underhelm cavity separate from the woofer's direct radiation. The rear cavity specifically acts as a second aperiodic enclosure that alters the phase of the port's output. Anyone with considerable marine installation experience knows that if you have one woofer enclosure within a locker with another identical woofer enclosure directly radiating into open space from the other side that they sum poorly. This constitutes the difference between a precision tuned bass-reflex enclosure and a clumsy ported box. And, this is very different from a rear-firing ported enclosure in a home speaker because both the woofer and port radiate into the same airspace in that case. However, the better home speakers do caution users to space the ported enclosure away from the wall to avoid colouration. The function of a bass-reflex enclosure is to invert the output of the port so that it is in-phase with the output of the driver over a prescribed bandwidth. Anything that disturbs the tuning will impact certain aspects of the sound quality. I'm also a fan of giving a woofer's and port's output space to breath without obstuction as a contributing element of sound quality. I'm not being overly critical of an alternate approach. It still gets the job done for a party system. However, it does speak to the point that there may be far more involved in planning and designing a top system than most people realize.

David
Earmark Marine

Perfect you'll be pleased to know I incorporated all of those points you made into mine when I did it.

You probably did do a couple custom boxes, I guess I was talking about the majority of the installs I've looked at in your galleries. You don't show any custom boxes I could see, I have seen some pretty cool false walls you've done though.

NuBu post some pictures of this said box. Let's see your skills!

Originally Posted by murphy_smith

NuBu post some pictures of this said box. Let's see your skills!

I don't have any pics of the box outside the boat, just sitting behind the false wall in the boat.

I can tell you based on sound quality and the false wall build its a well built box and tuned nicely. I was surprised to find that it wasn't professionally done.

I don't really care about the "I can tell you's" ...they dont' mean *****.

I guess my point is that if you are going to criticize someone elses work...you better be ready to post pictures of yours to back it up.

Come one....you really can't undue a couple of screws and remove that false wall???? I'll show mine if you who me yours

Originally Posted by murphy_smith

I don't really care about the "I can tell you's" ...they dont' mean *****.
I guess my point is that if you are going to criticize someone elses work...you better be ready to post pictures of yours to back it up.

Come one....you really can't undue a couple of screws and remove that false wall???? I'll show mine if you who me yours

Kinda the same way I feel about your opinion murph, doesn't really mean ****.

As far as critisizing you can thank Dave for starting all that crap. He doesn't seem to think anyone can build a system besides him, including the equipment manufacturer themselves. Pretty laughable. He's using theory to argue about something he's never seen or heard before, but surely there is no way it can work. There is plenty of science behind how those boxes are built (I have a different one by the way) but there is even more hands on field testing to see what actually sounds good, not just theory.

Dave has an obvious issue with Exile right now, at least it seems that way in his threads. There has to be way more to his posts going on behind the scenes. Kinda weird for a retailer to punk a manufacturer any chance they get.

NuBu,
Somehow this is becoming personal and I would prefer to keep it about the tech speak. The sensitivity is unwarranted. I have not criticized any component or the installation on your boat in this thread. And its okay to have differing opinions without going on the attack.
No issue between Exile and myself that I'm aware of. In fact, I just received a friendly email from Brian this morning. He knows that some of my comments may pertain to Exile but most do not and that I have voiced many of the same opinions directly to him.
I have been known to both agree and disagree openly with manufacturers when I have a strong opinion on a topic or when I feel the hype far exceeds or is in conflict with reality. I have also come to the defense of manufactuers when I felt that their products where being unfairly characterized. I have displayed no favoritism in respect to manufacturers and received many private messages from potential consumers expressing their appreciation for an unbiased perspective. And I am relatively sure that all manufacturers do not enjoy my independence at times.

David
Earmark Marine

Originally Posted by david_e_m

NuBu,
Somehow this is becoming personal and I would prefer to keep it about the tech speak. The sensitivity is unwarranted. I have not criticized any component or the installation on your boat in this thread. And its okay to have differing opinions without going on the attack.
No issue between Exile and myself that I'm aware of. In fact, I just received a friendly email from Brian this morning. He knows that some of my comments may pertain to Exile but most do not and that I have voiced many of the same opinions directly to him.
I have been known to both agree and disagree openly with manufacturers when I have a strong opinion on a topic or when I feel the hype far exceeds or is in conflict with reality. I have also come to the defense of manufactuers when I felt that their products where being unfairly characterized. I have displayed no favoritism in respect to manufacturers and received many private messages from potential consumers expressing their appreciation for an unbiased perspective. And I am relatively sure that all manufacturers do not enjoy my independence at times.

David
Earmark Marine

Glad to hear all is good with you and exile. I know you usually are very neutral about this stuff, something just seemed different this time. Have a good holiday weekend.

No professional opinion here, just my own from experience. Get a 12" sub! I had a 10 and was going to upgrade to a better 10" woofer. Brian at Exile told me the same thing, get a 12 and you'll be amazed at the difference. Well i am amazed at the difference. I put in his X12D and custom LSV ported box and even though not powering it yet to it's full or anywhere near potential it totally makes a night and day difference. I couldn't be happier with the decision and Exile.

Murph, nice to know my opinion isn't worth **** to you. Thanks for sharing.