2 pro 80s ?

Does two pro 80s get the job done? How much amp do I need to run the best?

Thanks

Happy New Year

YES, two will work just fine. They are rated 175 watts RMS and 350 watts PEAK at 4 ohms. I would use a 600 watt rms amp (300 watts per channel) at 4 ohms and set the gain levels to maximize the sound without clipping the speakers when the head unit is turned up. I use much larger amps than my speakers can handle and turn the gains down so to not damage/blow speakers. This makes the best sound and allows the amp to power the speakers with greater efficiency and run cooler.

note: RMS is the continous power rating ability of the speaker or amp and peak is what it can deliver (amp) or take (speaker)over very short periods.

thanks Dave

Are you sure 2 Pro 80s are enough? I haven't demoed the speakers but want to make the correct decision the first time if I go with these speakers. I was thinking of goin with a pair of Pro-80s and one pro-485 on my illusion tower. however, I don't want to give up the head room. Can anyone else confirm a pair of pro-80s will be plenty loud, or almost too loud? I like the idea of having only two speakers on the tower. CHeers!

if you are going to run 2-pro 80's and 1-pro 485 how are you going to control the volume from the amp/amps ?

good luck on this one... i am not saying it cant be done, but you might want to consider looking at the setup before you commit.

I only want to run two Pro-80s. I was thinking of adding the 485 but agree the power bridge would be difficult. Is anyone running only 2 PRo-80s and satisfied with clear sound to the rider? Or, if you have only one pair do you wish you went with 2 PAIRS of Pro 80s?

You guys just holler at Brett at Wetsounds, or any of those guys. They not only sell those speakers but they know their stuff. I have seen them sport all of theses setups. (dual pro 80s and sets with the 485 in the middle, or even two 485s, and one guy had 3 of em!) crazy!

Ask those guys, they are pros and excellent sponsors to a bunch of grassroots events here in Texas.

-Swami

btw, i would be really curious what it took to run a pair of pro 80's and a single 485 (how it was configured....unless i am mistaken that would be the most difficult and expensive way to run tower speakers)

I may be missing something but if there is a different way to wire/run a different 3rd speaker then please let me know...if the center speaker was wired along with the center speaker off a 2 channel amp then it take the majority of the amps power (if I remember right, the single 485 would get 66% of the amps power and the pair of 85’s would only get 33%)


If your not, then I would suggest picking the deck you would and consider the amount of outputs and maybe a line driver, amp/amps, and method to control the volume (pac, eq, or symbilink ) since it would require a 4 channel amp that is bridgeable to 3 channel full range (with separate gain controls to adjust the output) or a 2 channel amp with a 1 channel amp or a 2 channel amp with separate gain controls running a mono signal or a 2 channel amp with separate gains running a mono signal.....

4 single tower speakers each pair wired to a 2 ohm load with a stereo amp(heck if a lot easier, heck you could even do 3) would be better than 2 4 ohm speaker (pro 80’s) and a single 485 (4 ohm load)

the best tower speaker would be a pair of nvs with b&c pro audio neo drivers and selinium hcld's (ultra high quality light weight drivers over quantity) and i would bet money the b&c with a high quality amp would SMOKE a pretty much anything out there is loudness and sound quality...

btw, if you havent heard a pair of coaxial hcld tower speakers, you might want take a listen before you pull the trigger.... they are really, really loud/bright inside of the boat. this is due to compromised horn body vs a standard hcld lens (btw, this is common to both the nvs, wetsounds, any coaxial hcld speakers).

Threesome, pretty simple to wire:

Here is one way (of many):
Four channel amp, bridge two channels to the Pro 485, run each of the other two channels to the Pro-80s.

You can also do it with a two channel amp, two two channel amps, lots of other options...

A two channel amp wired in mixed mono will overload unless it's stable at 1 ohm.

Clubmyke, Until you actually try your NVS-B&C solution how do you know that it the best? This is the second or third time I have seen this recommendation and I believe your are speculating based on pictures and specifications? I have speculated on lots of things only to be completely wrong. You might be right but you might be wrong.

I have stopped thinking I am smarter than the guys building these speaker systems. NVS has made some changes this year. Wetsounds are holding solid. A friend just ordered some Rubi 450's so I should have the missing datapoint for HLCD systems in a few months.

The Spring Ride soundoff should be fun this year. Clubmyke, if you come up you are welcome to hang out with us on my 211...

mikeski,

thanks for the offer.. let me know when !!!! i bring my walzer surfboard...

in all respect, the drivers offered by the big 3 honestly cant compare to a RCF, B&C, or PHL pro audio driver...they simply cant take the power, dont have the output or the sound quality (the b&c's are insanley awesome - if you get a chance to hear them in a pro audio setting...they can get LOUD beyond belief with and still keep it together..they are only limited by the amp driving them..

i dont think i am any smarter than any of the designers however, i have played around and been around audio for a long time to know it takes a high quality source, amps, and drivers to run "all out".... i have owned alot of high end home audio gear and have even beta tested high end gear for manufactures over the years and i have never seen nor heard of a subsitution for mass market cheap stuff that comes remotely close to the best european drivers (the best drivers in the world pretty much come out of europe, whether pro audio or high end home.. there are very few american companies that can come close and no chinese/japense companies that can..it is like comparing a ferarri to a toyota...

i have a couple of ideas on how to make a better tower speaker than what is out there...some of these ideas i have ran by a pretty prominent audio manufacture and he said it should work and the other is pretty obvious... upgrade the to high quality pro audio driver that are lightwight, marine ready, high efficency, and high power handling..they would sound better(it would be a waste of time to compare a sony / pioneer 6.5" speaker to a polk momo /dynaudio/rainbow speaker... the latter would sound better and louder all the way around....b&c drivers have been around for a long time and are highly regarded as the best of the best in all regards..

the drivers used by the big 3 are severly compromised to keep the cost down (cheap and sound like it...i dont mean this for them to take offense but i really think better pro audio drivers will be the next generation of tower speakers..)

the real question is who will be the first one..

btw, in regards to wiring the above mentioned configured 2-pro 80's and 1 pro 485...would you run it in stereo or mono or both ? also, i am quite unsure of how it would sound with a mono speaker between a stereo pair or running all 3 mono (which amp would you use ?)

i do admit, i havent looked "hard" at this solution since it doesnt make sense to me (identical speaker do though)but i am sure a lot of readers would like to know of a "turn key" amp for this setup and how to do it..

btw, this really brings a interesting thought... there is so much unknown about this that i am surprised no one has really addressed this ( i think they are too busy with making tower speakers more than anything else)..

btw, i would love to work with dwyane or any other manufacture to develop a b&c driver/selinum hcld tower speakers....any takers ?

i have a elcipse 8053, runing symbilinked (balanced) to a zapco 1100.1 or zapco 1000.4 (clean high power 1 channel & 2 or 4 channel amps to test) and a pair of "golden ears" to tune them...

Two Pro 80's are enough sound for most people with the right amp power.

I run all of my tower systems in mono and feel they run stronger that way.

I didn't want to confuse the issue but I would actually wire the Pro-80's in series then bridge them across the amp's two channels. This puts them in mono and saves wire. The Pro-485 would be wired in mono across the other two channels. I would do the same trick with two pairs of Pro-80's to save tower wiring. The tower wiring harness gets ugly pretty quick when you have lights, XM antenna's, and speakers on the tower.

For amps I would use a decent 4 channel amp with 150+w X 4 (CEA ratings). Club, you know that we have different opinions when comes to amp values, I am a simple guy...

Orion, PPI, Kicker, Rockford, HiFonics, Clarion, Alpine, Phoenix Gold, MA Audio, etc... Pick one based on looks, they are all made in China and they all work fine if installed correctly.

If you don't know how to run RCA cables then spend the money on Zapco. It's great stuff but I don't see a good return on the investment.

How would you power a b&c speaker if it is an 8ohm speaker? What would it require?

mikeski - i do admit the zapco cost a bit more, but they they are reasonable when bought used or on discontinued buy out (a 2 channel zapco 750 goes for about $275 used...that amp pretty much take anything mentioned or that cost $700 new) they really hold their value (kinda like canon L lens).

the symbilink offers the advantage of volume control(without long rca's) and built in line drivers. when you add everything up, it is pretty much the same cost for very reliable high quality power (once you run a balanced signal via symbilink- its super quiet even running all out - not to many amps can do this in this type of setup..nobody has ever regretted dropping one in their system that i am aware of..

in regards to the wiring "in series then bridge them across the amp's two channels"- i would be curious to hear how it sounds and what it does to the amp, since power is being delivered to a single voice coil vs a dual..(in this situation a amp like a 4 channel zapco running 3 channel that offers a mixed mono signal would be better since the conversion into mono is done at the preamp level)

nelson- as mikeski indicated, mixed mono sounds better in this setup....a 8 ohm driver is more desireable in this setup imo...

you could run 3 8 ohm speakers for a 2.67 ohm load or 4 8ohm speakers for a 2 ohm load...(2 ohm or 2.67 ohm load is great for a mono amp)...

if your a stereo guy - then you could easily run 2,3, or 4 of them per side at 2, 2.67, or 4 ohms....

actually thinking about it...

a way to get a mono signal would be to use a a couple of Y adapters in running into a 2 channel amp from a line driver, then running into pacs or a eq for volume control (long rca's) - how would you adjust the volume difference between the 2 speakers and the single ?

this is poor "major pita" expensive solution imo....




(Message edited by clubmyke on February 03, 2007)

Clubmyke,

I am really surprised that you have any question regarding putting two voice coils in series with your level of knowledge? This is electronics 101, freshmen level stuff, basic ohms law. It's a simple reactive circuit that does not even need to be thevenized down to a basic RCL equivalent circuit.

If you bridge two channels of an amplifier the output voltage as additive, that voltage then splits half to one voice coil and half to the other. The speakers are identical, things split down the middle, it as easy as these arithmatic equations: 1+1=2, 2/2=1.

Every four channel amp that I have seen has seperate gain controls for the front and rear channels. Just use the gains to balance between the center speaker and outside speakers. Better yet run the Pro-485 a little stronger to bump up the low end and flatten out the responce curve (or vice-a-versa if you want it to sound brighter).

All this talk about PAC-LC1s is silly, you don't need them. If you Y your left and right audio signals together it will short the channels and put your whole system in mono (without any isolation).

Clubmike, you have your own threesome on your tower, how are they wired?

Caution, opinionated comment coming:
Running Zapco in a boat is like driving a Ferrari in an offroad rally...

mikeski,

i wasnt aware aware that the drivers were dual voice coil...are the drivers used dual coil ? i thought they were single...

i agree with you about pac 1's- the only reason i mention them is a lot of boaters use them...

i have my 3 tower speakers wired in series (8 ohm drivers) so the load is 2.67 (btw, i have run l&r together no problem)

imo, running a used moderate quality amp into a very demanding full range load that has a built in line drivers and volume controls is absolutely necessary and easy for installation(best bang for the buck for reliable power)..

offroad rally ??? i do have admit i am a sucker for european suv's - there is a reason why they use the most expensive suv's in africa and other hostile remote parts of world... they work and are reliable (the land rover 88 / 110 / defender models are the most abundant and most used in the world for last 50 years....)

here is the ferrari, mercedes, rover, and lambo's..

here is a lambo, ferrari, mercedes etc...






(Message edited by clubmyke on February 04, 2007)

here is a cool shot of some rovers slumming with a humvee..

there is a reason why you dont see ford/chevy/dodge suv's - they dont last in rough environements..



(Message edited by clubmyke on February 04, 2007)

Nice pix! Reminds me of when my ski instructor counterparts got the LandRover stuck on the beach in Tahiti when the tide was coming in...

Parallel impedence:
Zn parallel= 1/(1/Z1+1/Z2+1/Z3...1/Zn)

Series impedence:
Zn series= Z1+Z2+Z3...Zn

Your tower speakers are wired in parallel not series, typo? If they were in series the load would be 24 ohms. How does that amp do when the supply voltage drops below 12v? The Zapco might take the 2.7 ohm load in mono but it's a double whammy to the power supply stage of the amp, most don't like it... do I smell something burning?

Dual voice coils? No, I was talking about running the speakers in series (they look like voice coils from the amplifier's view). Running tower speaks in series then bridging the amp results in a design condition load where most amps are happy running on the lower voltage conditions.

I run a PAC-LC1 to attenuate my bow speakers, works great to turn the speaks down and give my wife some peace. I use the EQ to fade between the boat and tower. They have a place, but some people over-use them.

mikeski,

let me make sure i understand correctly on running 2 pro-80's and a single 485...take a 4 channel stereo amp and run in 2 channel mono ? 1 channel going to a single 485(4 ohm load)and the other bridged parallel at 2 ohms (u can run in series at 8 ohms )?

yes, my speakers are wired in parallel (i get the 2 confused all the time - my bad)..

voltage below 12v...humm... you are right - most amps will heat up and put less power and will wear out over time..this is kinda why a decent quality of amp is needed for a big hcld tower setup..

this is where the "quality" of power supply topology kicks in - regulated or unregulated..most high quality amps (like zapco, arc, and tru etc..) have regulated power supplies(this is a very, very, very big deal) when this happens and will put out the most watts it can without overheating despite the lower input voltage rail...

looking at different topologies like class d and class t (digital amp) present a unqiue solution to high power applications...

imo, reasonably priced class d amps for subs are proven and reliable(jl, mmatts, and many others have have shown this over the years)....

reliable class d/t for full range is a different story - only the newest zapco ck series (big $$$) has shown to reliable and offer the sonics of class a/b.. if there are others, i would like to know of them since this is the near future of mobile audio

(Message edited by clubmyke on February 06, 2007)

Let me see if I can make it more clear...

4 channel amp

Left Front + Right Front -> Pro 485 in center (see amp for mono wiring)

This results in a 4 ohm load on a bridged amp, maximum loading condition.

Option 1:
Left Rear -> Left Pro-80
Right Rear -> Right Pro-80

This results in a stereo soundstage with center channel mono, easy straightforward hookup but not optimum in my opinion.

Option 2:
Left Rear + Right Rear -> Pro-80's wired in series

LR(+) -> L Pro-80 (+)
L pro-80 (-) -> R pro-80 (+)
RR (-) -> R pro (-)

note: this assumes the amp's bridge mode is between the LR(+) and RR(-) terminals, verify on an amp before hooking it up.

This results in the whole tower in mono so all the speakers are hitting in unison which yields the strongest projection to the rider. There is really no point in wiring a tower in stereo.

I use Tripath amps, they have instability issues that shows up as noise at certain temperatures at certain volume levels. This is the trade off for having such high efficiencies. Most companies have stopped using the technology due to these issues.

The new Alpine PDX amplifiers and the competition series Zapco C2K amps are the only current amps using class D topology in full range amps. I am very interested in the PDX amps, the C2K's are hugely expensive as you mention above.

mikeski,

option 1 - no idea how it is going to sound but like you said easy to setup... since i havent tried it, it would be a expensive speculation to try

option 2 - optimal sound due to speakers running all mono but the problem is the amp...very, very, very few 4 channel few can run 2 ohms when bridged mono (most all can do 2 ohm stereo)... the only amps that i know that can run 2 ohms bridged mono full range is the zapco c2k series ($$$$), Rockford Fosgate T series (2 of them - $$$$), ARC SE Series($$$), Tru($$$$), and a handuful of old school amps like zapco z and c series, kicker zr(original).. i am sure there are a few more, but they are very high quality and generally expensive.

option 3
run a big 2 channel amp and "spilt the 485" (disconnect the hcld) so each side 2 ohms

option 4 (best bet imo)
special order a pair of pro 80's but with the driver from the 485 (i dont know if this can be done but it would be optimal ) and run a regular pro 80 and a modified pro 80 (no coaxial) parallel for a 2 ohm load per side running stereo(a amp with a mixed mono swith would be ideal... like a zapco 750 (sorry )

so, without spending big, big bucks on a amp that can run 2 ohms briged mono for the 2 pro's that you illustrated. it leaves very few options:
- 2 amp install
- amp that can run mixed mono full range (3 channel operation (zapco's reference series can with a 4 ohm load per channel)
- add a processor with mono output's (this is a good one if you can get one with a line driver)
- add a line driver with multiple outputs and use y adatpers to run mono in (this should work)..
-volume control would also have to be addressed
-8 ohm drivers on the pro 80's so they can be setup in 4 ohm parallel

as mentioned in above - good luck on this one... i am not saying it cant be done but you might want to consider really looking at the setup before you commit.

i really dig on the alpine pdx's.. they did a really, really nice job.. high power in a small package..

if i am still invited... when is the spring ride ?

mikeski,

btw, out if the amps you listed above - Orion, PPI, Kicker, Rockford, HiFonics, Clarion, Alpine, Phoenix Gold, MA Audio, etc....

only the the largest amp from the rockford t series has enough "Huevos" to do it and can be configured to do so (this is a imo, like anything ymmv)

other cheep considerations that will KINDA work (does it make sense to spend $1500 on speakers and use a $200-$300 amp?....this is what i dont understand.....spending 50% on a amp of what the speakers cost is reasonable cost imo since this a very, very demanding load ...and if you cant buy new, then pick up a used high amp off ebay (or a local dealers- they get trade in's ALL THE TIME)for $250 - $400. a used zapco 750 for $275 or $400 for 1000/4 or 1100/1 will "smoke" and any amp (xcept the rockford) listed above there and offer volume control and built in line drivers...

-ppi has a mixed mono switch(new ppi quality is wwaaaayy sub par of their older "art" series.their current amps may not run 3 channels only 2 and 4 ohms when bridged...

Hifonics XX Olympus "may" be able to do it in 3 channels...

as mentioned above...a pair of pro 80's and single 485 is a very, very, very difficult setup and is not as easy as it looks (unless i am missing something.. please feel free to add)

(Message edited by clubmyke on February 07, 2007)

caddywampus. You are confused on what Mikeski is talking about.

Mikeski is correct. But let me elaborate.

In his option 2. It is NOT a 2 ohm mono load. That would be in a parallel configuration. In his example, it is a series configuration. Which is an 8 ohm load.

As in Mikeski's options. Option 1 is what we recommend for most installs. Take a large 4 ch amp. Summed mono to the single 485 and stereo to the 80's. This puts the amp at 4 ohms bridged "sum" mono to the 485 and 4 ohms stereo to the 80's. Since you are running the single 485 in "sum" mono. It works great and sounds great with the 80's that are in stereo. A lot of higher quality amps will have "sum" mono capability.

Option 2 like Mikeski mentioned. Would put all in mono and the 4 ch amp would be 4 ohms mono on the 485 and 8 ohms mono on the 80's. As long as you have a high powered amp. You will be fine in this option as well.

Option 3 is 2 amps. One for the 485 and one for the 80's. Not a big deal as you can usually pick up 2 mid size 2 ch for around the price of a large 4 ch. It is just finding the room for 2 amps.

It is a very simple install and it is also one of our best selling packages. Sounds great and Looks great and is EASY to hook up.

We are happy to provide professional advice to the consumers out there that might be confused on how to hook it up.

Thanks,

Tim White
Wet Sounds Inc.

Everybody/anybody,

I have a degree in electrical engineering. My understanding for these elementary topics is quite comprehensive. I do my best to simplify the issues, making posts intended to help the wakeboarding community get the most out of their stereo systems. Unfortunately, there is a significant amount of erroneous information posted in this thread.

Some of my personal opinions about amplifiers are also expressed in this thread. These views are simply my opinion and different from the discussion on mono/stereo, series/parallel wiring configurations. The information I have posted on wiring configurations is textbook, easily verified and very conclusive. If we want to debate various amplifiers that’s different, we could go on and on and never really reach any conclusion.

Clubmyke,
I would recommend you spend a little time on www.bcae1.com, they do a very good job of explaining mono/stereo amplifier wiring and series/parallel speaker wiring. My attempt to break it down here has failed, I see that your calculations are producing incorrect results.

A practical option would be to go by Radio Shack and pick up a few 4 ohm resistors and a small Ohmmeter, and prove it out experimentally.

It would be best to get things worked out before you do much more posting on this subject. Anybody following your posts in this thread is probably very confused at this point. You have my number, I am happy to walk you through it if needed.

Mikeski

okay... here we go.....car amp design and impedence.... lets go back to a question i asked..."WHICH AMP" would you suggest running 2 pro 80's and a 1 pro 485 ?

the confusion is on the running the tower speakers at 2 ohms/8 ohms mono or 4 ohms stereo...

this really presents a problem since
1. stereo behind with tower speakers yields poor output when compared to mono
2.there are very few amps that can do a 2 ohms briged mono load or offer high power into 8 ohm mono...

i will break this down asap (as simple as possible ) there are A LOT of things going here that make this a very, very poor setup unless you know what you are getting doing

1. stereo & mono (Source material is 2 channel)
2. impedence
3. volume control on 2 amps


As in Mikeski's options.

This results in the whole tower in mono so all the speakers are hitting in unison which yields the strongest projection to the rider. There is really no point in wiring a tower in stereo.

i have been a major proponent of mono to tower speakers for a couple of years now.. there is no such thing as stereo at 80'...the sound in stereo is great at the center of the wake but the sound drop off dramatically as soon as the rider cuts out.. this is tower speaker acoustics 101


Option 1 is what we recommend for most installs. Take a large 4 ch amp. Summed mono to the single 485 and stereo to the 80's. This puts the amp at 4 ohms bridged "sum" mono to the 485 and 4 ohms stereo to the 80's. Since you are running the single 485 in "sum" mono. It works great and sounds great with the 80's that are in stereo. A lot of higher quality amps will have "sum" mono capability.-

1.the MAJOR DRAWBACK to this configuration is the poor sound imaging as soon as you cut out from the center...the stereo pair will fill the center along with the mono 485...the left side and the right side will be very weak and the sound in the center will be very,very, very, loud...the whole idea about running a all mono signal is equal output across a very WWWWIIIIIIDDDDDEEEEE listening area (this defeats "all the speakers are hitting in unison")....lots of money in the setup and poor left and right sound with this setup...

stereo signal + mono center = overkill in center & poor sound on the right side & left side

it is better to have a built in mixed mono switch to run all three channels @ 4 ohms - again which amp would you suggest ?



Option 2 like Mikeski mentioned. Would put all in mono and the 4 ch amp would be 4 ohms mono on the 485 and 8 ohms mono on the 80's. As long as you have a high powered amp. You will be fine in this option as well.

run the pro 80 at 8 ohms ???? good luck...you are taking the 2 weakest signals (LEFT /RIGHT) and REDUCING the power going to them because is going to a 8 ohm load on 99% of the amps used - going to a 8 ohm load cuts the output power in 1/2 except for the jl slash series which will out out the same power wether 2 ohm or 8 ohm load....remember 99% of high quality amps will double the power into lower impedences (ie 100 rms into 4 ohms - 200 rms into 2 ohms - 400 watts into 1 ohms...well the reverse is true - 100 watts into 4 ohms - 50 watts into 8 ohms... this is further compounded by RUNNING IN SERIES PUTS OUT LESS POWER than parallel even if it high output at 8 ohms...

so unless you get a amp which will deliver full power into 8 ohms this setup will sound poor and is the pooe setup..

Option 3 is 2 amps. One for the 485 and one for the 80's. Not a big deal as you can usually pick up 2 mid size 2 ch for around the price of a large 4 ch. It is just finding the room for 2 amps.

this is also a very, very poor and expensive setup for many reasons..

1.why run a stereo and mono signal together if the 2 pro 80's are run at stereo 4 ohm load
2. amps that will do 2 ohms briged mono are $$$ to get a mono signal
3. get a 4 ohm stereo amp that has a mixed mono switch and a 2 channel amp to run bridged mono at 4 ohms for the 485..
4. volume control on 2 amps ????? good luck on this one..this is one i would like to see how this would be done without noise and various add-ons (this is a MAJOR problem with this setup..please address how volume control would be done..i would be very curious..


i really think the obvious answer to run these 3 speakers would be

-find "right" amp
-change the impedence of the speakers
-make a stereo to mono processor with line driver and multiple inputs/outputs/ volume control for at least 4-6 channels (this is a obvious "freebie" to any wakeboard tower speaker manufacture... this is a much needed item imo)..

(Message edited by clubmyke on February 07, 2007)

btw, i would be REALLY INTERESTED TO HEAR a comparison between a pair of NVS 808's with b&c drivers/selenium horns (cost ???) to 2 pro 80's /pro 485 ($1748) running off a zapco 1000/4 (can be configured to run stereo/mono/or both)....

i do know the nvs would be a heck of a lot easier to set up..

run the pro 80 at 8 ohms ???? good luck...you are taking the 2 weakest signals (LEFT /RIGHT) and REDUCING the power going to them because is going to a 8 ohm load on 99% of the amps used - going to a 8 ohm load cuts the output power in 1/2 except for the jl slash series which will out out the same power wether 2 ohm or 8 ohm load....remember 99% of high quality amps will double the power into lower impedences (ie 100 rms into 4 ohms - 200 rms into 2 ohms - 400 watts into 1 ohms...well the reverse is true - 100 watts into 4 ohms - 50 watts into 8 ohms... this is further compounded by RUNNING IN SERIES PUTS OUT LESS POWER than parallel even if it high output at 8 ohms...

Clubmyke your statement above is simply not true, 8 ohm mono is design condition for most amps. Luckily I think the only people reading all of this nonsense at this point is you and I. If you want to continue the tower wiring debate let's take it offline. I am happy to offer my boat as a test mule as I have done before. We can hook them up in stereo/mono/however so you can hear the results yourself.

Clubmyke your statement above is simply not true, 8 ohm mono is design condition for most amps. Luckily I think the only people reading all of this nonsense at this point is you and I.

mikeski, sorry you feel that way but this is to address the actual statements on running this setup by tim white and yourself (yes you can assume i am calling the both of you out on this one... your reports are wwwaaaaayyyy off on this one).

it is not about tower wiring, it is about a manufacture promoting a setup that is difficult, expensive, difficult to install, and offers sub par performance. sorry guys, i strongly suggest to talk to some amp manufactures to confirm your facts on amp impedence topolgy and specifactions..

i would like to point out as nicely as possible that running 8 ohms does reduce the power output by 1/2 compared to 4 ohms according to tech support at zapco/arc...so unless "we" are wrong, then gosh darn it the world is flat also..

Btw, this can also be confirmed in the zapco refernce manual on page 31 & 32 for the reference 750 amp (375rms into 8 ohms mono and 750 into 4 ohms mono)...sorry on this one mikeski & tim, but the power is cut by 1/2 when the impedence is increased to by a factor of 2...

you are more than welcome to call up and confirm confirm this as i did today (ask for mike at zapco 209-577-4268... or download the zapco reference manual and look at page 31 & 32...) if you should call, ask them about series or parallel power output differences they will also confirm that series is harder on the amp and hence less power output (believe me i dont pull this stuff out of the air)

pretty much all car amps are speced into a 4 ohms load unless otherwise stated and most will do a 2 ohm stereo load no problem. the sign of a super high quality amp is to double the power as the impedence is dropped 1/2 increments((ie 100 rms into 4 ohms - 200 rms into 2 ohms - 400 watts into 1 ohms..) the reverse is true unless specified like the jl slash series which puts out the same despite the impedence (they are good for the same output when in 2-8 ohms/ stereo and 3-8 ohms when bridged... there are a couple of other amps that are designed like, but this design is maybe 5 % of design's (jl comes to mind)

here are some common guidelines...

-some class d sub amps are designed specified to run at 1 to 2 ohms like the mmats) or cheater amps for sound offs to run at 1/2 to 1 ohm loads like the zapco ck series, original orion, etcc
-the majority of speakers are designed at a 4 ohms and some at 2 ohms(to get max power from amp)
-i dont know of any 8 ohm car audio speakers...if there are i am not aware of any(there are subs designed to run in parallel -jl has some 8 ohms single voice coil subs or a dvc can be configured to run at a 8 ohm load)..-
- talk to a reputable stereo shop (not a boat dealership)..a good stereo shop can cover a wide range of options while a dealership will generally try to sell you on a very, very limited selection..


I dont see the advantage to running 2 different types of tower speakers...it is difficult to set up in regards to amp selection, sound dispersion, and volume control.. for the same price - the buyer would be better off with 4 pro 80's or 2 485's for roughly the same cost..

like i mentioned above, i strongly suggest to talk to a experienced audio shop/installer and amp manufacure to get the specifics on the optimal load and actual output into that load for the amps you are looking at...

btw, check with a sound engineer about running stereo with a mono center with 2 channel material with no processing in a reverse listening apex... talk about a cluster@#$%

i eagerly await to hear of your findings..

(Message edited by clubmyke on February 08, 2007)

blah, blah, blah

This is getting comical

This is a classic argument, between somebody who is reading specifications and others who have had numerous successes with this approach.

It works, get over it

mikeski,

it does work but it is no where close to optimal and can cause the amp to overheat and/or blow the drives if driven hard due to decreased power output from the increased resistance....

running certain amps at higher impedence can damage them (this is true of the zapco's 1100/1- 6 to 8 ohm loads will damage the amp due to overheating...please feel free to contact them to confirm...with that being said, any prospective buyer should confirm with the amp manufacture RATHER THAN BY SPECULATION TO confirm the amp will not be damaged by running a 8 ohm load (ie like the zapco 1100/1 reference and others

running pro audio drivers that are designed around heavy duty industrial pro audio amps with huge power supplies and ac current compared to mediocre car audio amps with crappy sources running near all out at 8 omhs at 1/2 power is ridculous and not to mention ________ (i'll pass on the cheap shot - but i do feel you are avoiding the issue because you are misinformed and mistaken...its not a big deal)

i am just curious why dont you address the issue rather than attack the person ? btw, did you get a chance to confirm the reduced power by 1/2 into 8 ohms vs 4 ohms.. by your answer, you did and it reduced as i stated above.

all it takes to run this setup(which is new) is a careful selection of a 4 channel amp..which in this case will be a little more on the expensive side.

this is a new type of setup and there is nothing the mattter with knowing the full details before dropping $2500 - $3000 and not having a reliable good sounding set up that works (ie extreme attention to detail and tweaking it to get optimal results..thats all it is...no more-no less...and for this i do admit i am guilty as charged).

btw, i seriously doubt i will ever put this much time, thought, and effort into "framing" a new type of system again for the readers/boaters/tower speaker manufactures..

btw, i got a couple email from tower speaker manufactures asking how to do this, i wont mention names but you might be surprised...

what i have stated above is correct, verifiable, and optimal for a 3 speaker design utilizing 2 different type of tower speakers (wether it be nvs, wetsounds, and skylons speakers based on 4 ohm loads)

i am not in the tower speaker/audio market and nor sponsored...

(Message edited by clubmyke on February 09, 2007)

I have a question for you guys since I know you both have Nautiques. What Zapco amp would be the best for running all 6 speakers in my SAN? I have an eq which I currently use to fade my tower and boat speakers separately and I'd like to run my boat speakers on a single amp. I know Zapco has the 650.6 but that thing is so damn big. Also what wiring configuration would you use?

paul,

are referrring just the cabin speakers/ subs and not the towers ?

is it safe to assume the impedence of the speakers and subs is 4 ohms ?

(Message edited by clubmyke on February 11, 2007)

Paul,

My 6 interior Polks (stock MMCs) run off a 4 channel amplifier. The 2 in the bow run off the front channels, the 4 in the rear are wired in parallel and run off the rear 2 channels.

I was at a distributors show yesterday and spoke with a couple guys that have had good luck with the Zapco 1000.4 (reference series) in this application.

If you need a really small amp the new Alpine PDX 4.150 will work. If I were starting over these would most likely be the amps I would use in my boat. The Eclipse XA4000 uses the ICE chipset that takes advantage of the Class D efficiency, it would also be a good choice in a boat. The Eclipse amp is also suitable for power hungry tower speakers. The new ARC KAR 900.6 is also a good option if you do not feel comfortable wiring more than one speaker to each amplifier channel, this amp is a good compliment to the Polk quality level.

There are endless options, a few with some distinct disadvantages but most may not result in audible differences from your speakerset.

Do you have the factory Clarion 480? This amp is not bad once you enable the crossovers to eliminate the power wasting low frequencies to the Polks if you wire it as I have described above. People tend to throw this amp away when it's perfectly suited to carry the boat speakers once it's wired and tuned correctly.

If you have additional questions, feel free to send me a private message.

mikeskiw@gmail.com

clubmyke, I'm just referring to the 6 polk cabin speakers. I already have my tower and sub taken care of.

mikeski, Isn't the zapco 1000.4 a little much for the cabin speakers? I would think the 360.4 would be best but your the expert, which is why I'm asking.

paul,

i am running the zapco 1000/4 for the 6 speakers(image dynamics idq's & tweeters) and it is great.

i havent tried the 360/4 but since the polks are components (less efficent) and you are running 4 in parallel (2 ohms) and 2 ( 4 ohms) in a open listening enviorment -it might be pushing it a little hard..

if your not married to zapco, consider the arc 4150 xxk with 80 rms vs. 50 rms (60% increase in power for about the same money)

btw, another way to do it is depending on the impedence of the tweeter is run a 360/4 for the drivers and a 200/2 for the tweeters and use the built in electronic crossovers...

Paul,

I am no expert on Zapco's line, I don't think using them on the Polks is a good match. The 1000.4 would work but it is way overkill. You would probably be better off getting a less expensive amp with more power than the Zapco 360.4.

I often choose my amps based on what fits physically in the space I have to work with. I don't like them hanging down into the storage areas, so I usually try to get the smallest amps and place them in spaces that would otherwise be wasted. This is one of the reasons I have a less than positive feeling towards some Zapco and older PPI products.

Mike

btw,

tru has some nice 4 channel amps and with the introduction of their new models thay are offering old versions at great prices..

mmats 4150SQ - is a killer... and i do mean killer 4 channel amp...the only drawback is it is a small company and that amp is hard to find..however, the performance far outweighs the price..

jl 450/4 - nice amp..very, very nice amp..would work out well..

150 W RMS x 2 @ 1.5 ohm – 4 ohm
75x2 W RMS @ 1.5 ohm – 4 ohm for the bow...

btw, jl audio like other high quality manufactures specs their amps very, very, conseratively...these are super nice amps..

I'm new to wakeworld...Does anyone know about arc audio's S.E. series amps. I'm considering 2 se4200s. I heard the guy who designed them used to work for zapco...Any info would be appreciated.

FYI, I have an 07' 23lsv. I'm also looking at using 4pr. of focal 6.5" coax. 1pr.pro80x and 1 or 2 Image Dymanics IDQ 12"s. I like these 12s because they work well in small enclosures... open to suggestions....

Paul,

The Arc SE amps are very very nice. Here is a W7 running off a an ARC SE. You won't see this kind of push off any JL amp...

what do u think about the other products i listed? (focal coax.and IDQ12s)

paul,

the arc se is the latest from robert zeff (he started zapco and has designed a lot of amps over the years...he is known as "the" car amp designer and has designed amps for many, many companies and has established symbilink (balanced) into car audio... the only bummer is he couldnt bring symbilink over with him when he moved from zapco to arc..regardless, the arc se/xxk is super nice gear..

the arc se is really nice stuff... kinda hard to do better..however it seems a bit overkill for focal coax's..pretty much anything from zapco reference/dc, arc xxk/se,jl slash series, tru, etc will work great...

a single idq 12 is pretty efficent (i run 10's in the car & 12's in the boat) and they are great and have been my longest lasting sub.. super efficent and needs a little box for devastating results.. the only question is sealed or ported.. a buddy runs a single 12 in a 1.25 bandpass box and hits HARD and goes low (1'll go sealed at .75 each)

the jl amps are very nice..and for subs amps they are hard to beat..class d / regulated power supply/and incredible crossovers (a single jl 500/1 replaced my zapco ag 1000)...i have used this combo for years with idq's subs...

a buddy(tim day) has a jl 300/2 in mono with a pair of pro 80's and it is a nice combo (btw, the jl is one of the few amps that can run at 8 ohms)...

get with a good shop and you cant go wrong with what you are loking at with your gear..

(Message edited by clubmyke on February 12, 2007)

yes i'm going use a sealed enclosure...and as for the se being overkill, i want to make sure i have more power than i need. so i don't have to run the gain to high...thanks for the info...

iam with you on not overdriving the amp....what head unit are you going to use?

likely alpine cda-9885 i"ve heard alpine has the fastest i-pod interface...btw as of today i'm considering using separates. have u heard the bazooka 6.5 separates??

with that level of amps, seperates would be in order..havent heard the bazooka seperates, i wasn't aware they made them..have you seen the new arc audio seperates ? the jl audio marine seperates also, sound really good. like anything, give them a listen..

i've pretty much tried them all from rainbows to dynaudio's and have been really impressed with image dynamics seperates (i've changed out the camleaon carbon fiber drivers for the 6.5 idq's)..

given that is is a boat, weather resistant and uv protection is something to be considered..


(Message edited by clubmyke on February 12, 2007)

which do u like better, 6.5 idq's or jl marines

i could live happily with either...
sound - image dynamics
install & complete package - jl marine

there are some differnt factors (a lot would depend on how i store & use my boat, sound quality, difficulty of install)

if you keep it garaged, want the best sound, and dont mind modifying grills to fit - then the id

btw, with the id, i am running unique combo..the idq 6.5's are not available by themselves or with the cameleon tweeter but with the id horn.. i had bought hard to find 6.5 idq's as they came up on ebay (they were all new !!!!) and reasonably priced.. the only reason i use them over the carbon fiber chamelon driver is the because of the closed dust cover otherwise i would use the carbon fiber driver (call eric at id if you are interested and he should be able to mod a couple pair for you)..

the jl's are nice because the do sound good and are a "turn key" set for the boat..

really cant go wrong with either

btw, we installed a big old school zapco amp (50x4 & 200x1) in a buddies 2005 mc x2/x1 that had the jl seperates and they did really, really well with only 50 rms (very underated amp imo)..the free air sub also did really good also (we were all surprised)

the id combo requires at least 100 rms of clean underated power imo ( i am using a zapco ref2 1000/4) via all symbilink through a 16 v balanced eclpse 8053 head unit the front id's image well considering its a boat)

(Message edited by clubmyke on February 13, 2007)

From another thread located at http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/418051.html

---

quote:

By Mikeski (mikeski) on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 12:53 pm:

Since this thread just won't die...

Yesterday I e-mailed several amp manufacturers the option 1 and option 2 wiring diagrams for a threesome (any threesome consisting of three 4 ohm speakers WetSounds, NVS, Skylon, Infinity, Kraco...).

I was quite surprised by the reply I received from Robert at Zapco. He said he "would not go to an 8 ohm load", so I called him. We had a nice conversation, I was able to explain the diagram that he had apparently not carefully reviewed, and he confirmed that any Zapco 4 channel amplifier including the reference 1000.4 would operate without any trouble wired either way and agreed that operating an amplifier in stereo at 4 ohms per channel is exactly the same load a operating the same amplifier at 8 ohms in mono.

The other most active poster on this thread may come back with a combatative debate in an effort to discount my clean technical solution? I believe I have Robert from Zapco clear on the issue, you are welcome to call and confirm with him directly at 209-577-4268 x106. But please be aware that he is currently working on a car so he might be unavailable to provide advice.

You might also want to ask yourself a question. Should you believe the electrical engineer or the stereo installer...

Threesome wiring options:

Upload threesome_wiring-421743.pdf (31.4 k)

---

---

quote:

By caddywampus (clubmyke) on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 10:10 pm:

mikeski,

i your post and called robert at zapco and he confirmed what you said...(read below for the details)

i am really, really, really, really, surprised...when i bought my zapco 1100.1 last year the shop (street noyz, the west coast zapco rep, and tech support informed me(2 different times)that a 6-8 ohm load would damage the amp when bridged - this is the honest to God truth !!! - they can modify there amps to run lower impedence loads but not higher...)

i asked robert(today) and he did mention the C2K series amps CAN NOT run into 8 ohms but the class a/b reference series can (i think tech support got confused about this)... i am bummed since i changed out my 2 ohm drivers for 8 ohm drivers...

to say i am really surprised and pizzed($$$ to change out drivers) it still shows to call tech support..

btw, ask robert about the ck series into 8 ohms if you dont believe me...

---

Need help choosing amps to run (1) pair Pro-80x, (1) 10 or 12w7, and 6 polks inside boat my 07' Malibu VTX. I want clear sound but want to be good with storage space. I also want to consider options that won't load the batteries too bad when floating. Should I consider alternator improvements? Thanks for any advise!

btw caddywapmpus, not to be opinionated but those poor brits and their landrovers sure dont take hits like a m-1114 hmmwv (made by GM) so granted they can and will get blown through they will take 10X the hit that a rover will, as far as i know the brits dont even take their rovers out side anymore in un-named •••••• country... sorry I just had to comment on that one (slumming comment)

andrew -lol

i have never seen a humvee of ANY variant of one appreciate in value (i could be wrong here)

rover 110's, 88's, and defender 90's hold their value and have far appreciated far beyond than and what they were new..they have been used in all types of specialty applications all over the world that are too numerous to mention. the humvee may be able to "take a hit" but the land rover series have shown to be highly durable and reliable over the decades (this may be the reason why they have appreciated in value)

keep in mind - "land" rovers are the most used 4x4 jeeps in the world and have been over the last 30 or so years.. they have been in production since the 50's ( i think they hold the record for "current production") - not to mention the most copied among off road vehicles...nissan patrol, land cruiser, mercedes mog just to name a few..

the hummers are nice but a defender rover or 110 series is considered to be the best of the best and this is shown by being in the most inaccessible spots in the world..

i guess if i had to go through a getto neighorhood and was worried about incoming fire here in the usa then a humvee may be the better vehicle...

[start hijack]

clubmyke, are you still in socal or have you moved on to phoenix?

[/end hijack]

joe,

still around... how frankie and you doing ?

when are we going to go riding?

This discussion is a clinic in itself. Since my issue is in the same general vein and this particular thread seems pretty worked let me ask about my situation. Since the nuances of this discussion are definitely over my head I know I need to trust a pro to fix my mess of a system. Any suggestions in Santa Rosa? I have used Cartronics for a couple of car upgrades for my kids, but the guy I worked with there has moved on. I can't afford to spend more than around 2K but have some elements in place. I just need to get it sorted out.

I have a 2005 Malibu LSV, Illusion X tower. Came with the stock sony xplod 600watt 4 channel amp (about 60 RMS I think) and 6 in boat 6.5 inch coaxial speakers. Although it sounds just okay in the boat it is useless for riding and the sound reflecting off the windshield glass is very harsh. stock 90 amp alternator. I've added some things. A second battery. Tower speakers, 4 6.5 inch coaxial Kicker 65s in Endformz fiberglass enclosures. First I disconnected the two windshield speakers. Then I ran the remaining 4 boat speakers off the front 2 channels and the 4 tower speakers off the back two channels so I could control the balance between the two with the fade control. I also played around with the crossovers and gain controls endlessly to try and optimize the sound. Ultimately it isn't loud enough with the boat running to hear out back, so the whole exercise misses the point. Since the tower sits so low in the boat and so far forward we decided to try just running the tower speakers and disconnecting all the inboat speakers. So now it is just the kickers, one per channel. It is louder but the sound breaks up before it reaches a volume that works for a rider and the bass, even with most of it rolled out, just doesn't work at all out of those little speakers. I can't tell if the bad sound at volume is clipping or just overdriving the cones??

So now I'm thinking I need a sub and an amp to run that and then maybe the stock amp can run the inside the boat speakers it was paired with originally and I can control the sub from the head unit (it has EQ and output for that) I was thinking of putting the sub on the driver's side in a std wedge box (which I think should fit fine if the foot stop board is pulled out) which offers the option of using the sub in one of our other cars when the boat is put up for 6 months of the year. I've looked at a JL W3 12 and a 400watt JL amp to run it.

Of course that leaves me without any tower speaker power and the problem of no rider music. So first, does this in boat solution seem workable? Second, should I give up on the tower speakers I bought and replace with something like the Wetsounds pro 80X discussed here or what? And if I do that how do I power the tower speakers and control all of it.

i have to agree caddywampus but this is a humvee after hitting an anti-tank mine (made to kill tanks) obvously everybody walked and very minimal damage this was on the road in 4 hours dont think this one is appreciating much though! and I love the defenders they are probobly the coolest trucks out there

please dont get me wrong... i like humves.. the rovers defenders are just different.. ie they have almuminum bodies and are very, very light vs. the heavier humvee's..i find it interesting that both can transverse a 45 degree without rolling..

gm really stepped it up and made a reliable world class vehicle. in really thinking about it, it may be our "best of the best" made in america vehicle..

hahah yea your right on the weight these hummves keep getting more and more added to them they are about 7.5 TONS! right now and very underpowered with all the new armor, I acctually talked to some brits yesterday into letting me drive their 110 and it was the nicest thing ive driven in 22 months!

funny you mentioend that, i knew they were heavy but 7.5 tons..WOW !!!!

i think that illustratres the differnce in design between the 2 vehicles.the rover is pretty much designed for a 4wd and the humvee for a lightly armoured unit....each one has its own purpose- the light weight rover can be moved via helicopter.

btw, i would love to own a diesel defender 110..the ultimate 4wd imo..

i want one !!!!! tow capability at 7000lbs !!

check out the dual double cab soft top !!

what is amazing... is how cheap these are.. i wish they were imported into the usa... the defender 90's start at $24k (incredibly cheap)