Ragboy's criteria - "I just PERSONALLY want to see boats that are easy to setup on both sides with the same weight and same wake" I guess the Supreme 226 wont be a Wake9 boat. Both sides are not identical and you have to run more weight and trim tab down on one side to keep it clean.
Dennis: "I never said that both sides were exactly the same"
Surfdad: We lightened the ballast while I rode it and it was filthy and gutless, so weight seems to be a good thing for the darkside on this boat.
Once again, I am sorry. I just cant help myself today. To much time on my hands with the family out and about today.
Serious question to
Dennis/Surfdad
Next time you get out on the Supreme 226, will you run the same set up on the regular side but add 300lbs to the opposite rear locker. The Towanza guys swear adding 300-400lbs to the opposite rear locker add a lot of push to the Enzo wave.
Dennis:
My experience is that nearly all KK boats came with manual wake plates. So I would be willing to guess that most of your experience with an Enzo had the manual wake plate (I could be wrong). In any event, the next time you get on an Enzo with an auto wake plate, please run the same set up you ran on the Supreme 226 (Enzo sac, 700lbs on seat (people or sacs) and trim tab all the way down. Please film it and post it on WW.
In any event, the wake on the Supreme 226 is obviously very nice (especially since the Wave Whisperer has blessed it). Cant wait to until my local dealer gets one so I can crawl through it.
Ok islander, not really sure who went wrong here BUT, last weekend during the Nationals, I hosted the Walkers and Dennis Horton riding behind my 226 for about 4 plus hours Friday and Sat. I set the boat up and drove most of the time. The trim was up or off on regular side and KK told me to put it all the way down for the goofy side. Looked equal on both sides or real close, real hard to tell if you don't ride both. The video should be coming soon, we can all judge when we see it, until then....happy wakesurfing on either side or boat,
Seems to me that there are a lot of people trying to critique the wake on a boat that has had very little time spent in it dialing in the wake. This boat was different than Drew's boat in FL. There were several changes made to his boat that were not on this boat. As I understand it on Drew's boat the swim platform was 3 inches higher than on this boat. He had a "high altitude" prop and we used a generic prop. This could have and probably did create the prop wash on the goofy side. The wash was far worse when I first rode then later in the day. We made changes all day long to see what worked best and what didn't. One of those was when Jeff rode and we took some weight out of the back locker. Right out of the box with simple weight we had a great surf boat. Could it get better? I think so. Will there be a better setup than we used? Probably. All in all it was outstanding. Long pocket on both sides and great push. Tall and clean on the regular side. Tall and a little dirty on the goofy side. Will it ultimately be one of the best surf boats on the market today. IMO yes without question.
@ Surfdad
..."This boat has that horseshoe shaped bag in the bow, with one switch to fill and drain, whereas the surf series has two bags in the bow - regular and darkside and two switches so that the ballast is isolated for the side being surfed".....
I didn't see room for these bags under the seats, are they built into the hull somehow?
Last edited by islander033; 09-12-2010 at 4:25 PM.
Seems to me that there are a lot of people trying to critique the wake on a boat that has had very little time spent in it dialing in the wake. This boat was different than Drew's boat in FL. There were several changes made to his boat that were not on this boat. As I understand it on Drew's boat the swim platform was 3 inches higher than on this boat. He had a "high altitude" prop and we used a generic prop. This could have and probably did create the prop wash on the goofy side. The wash was far worse when I first rode then later in the day. We made changes all day long to see what worked best and what didn't. One of those was when Jeff rode and we took some weight out of the back locker. Right out of the box with simple weight we had a great surf boat. Could it get better? I think so. Will there be a better setup than we used? Probably. All in all it was outstanding. Long pocket on both sides and great push. Tall and clean on the regular side. Tall and a little dirty on the goofy side. Will it ultimately be one of the best surf boats on the market today. IMO yes without question.
I have not read one bad comment about the 226 wave. I think I am having a little fun needling you and Ragboy because you are going to basically have to run the same type of set ups (see Islander historical post on this topic) guys are running on and Enzo to get a clean goofy wave. I am just curious if Ragboy is going to provide people his same warning. I on the other hand am ok that I might have to run a little more weight on the dark side to get the wave to clean up (it is just a fact you will have to run more weight if you have the trim tab all the way down. This drives the front of the boat down, which knocks the wave down)
Like I said before, slow day so I am just find it a little more amusing than usual how you guys decide what is an automated wake and what is not.
Serious Comment:
There is no doubt that the Enzo is going to get a run for its money from the 226. That video of the regular side is nasty (in a good way) and the goofy side is still very nice (has to have a lot of push because Dennis is spinning like Michael Jackson back in the day). I am ok with the fact that after I fill up the custom 1,600lbs 226 sac that if I dont have a few people in the boat, I may have to throw a fat sac on the seat to clean the goofy wave up
I didn't see room for these bags under the seats, are they built into the hull somehow?
Oh islander, I never saw them I was just relaying the info from Grant and seeing the extra switch on Drew's boat.
Hey BK, we never had as much weight on the darkside as we did on the regualr side, right? I believe we had 1,600 water on the regular side, but we never got above 1,300 on the darkside...and when I rode it was around 1,100-1,200...not the right direction.
Oh islander, I never saw them I was just relaying the info from Grant and seeing the extra switch on Drew's boat.
Hey BK, we never had as much weight on the darkside as we did on the regualr side, right? I believe we had 1,600 water on the regular side, but we never got above 1,300 on the darkside...and when I rode it was around 1,100-1,200...not the right direction.
That would be cool. I would be surprised just because of how a trim tab works. But again, the using the same weight on both sides does not matter to me. I still think both sides look nice.
Yes we used less water weight on the goofy side than the regular side. Which makes sense from a physics point of view as the driver adds not subtracts from the goofy side. Not out of the norm. Ragboy does run the same weight from side to side as I recall. Same weight to me is not an issue as long as it fills with the flip of a switch and everything is hidden and a great wake on both sides. Not really asking for much. Not really sure what the tab setup was as I was never near the drivers seat and we changed it a lot. Drew told me that he did not fill the front sac on his boat. Still a very sweet wake.
I think the issue is that you consider the caveat, a BASH, to use your term. It is not. I think it is safe to say that this boat has not been fully dialed in yet. But I know Dennis Horton, and if it takes 500 extra lbs and a change in the wakeplate, he will state that. I would too. Its not a bash, its just full disclosure. Its the kind of information a buyer would want to know before he bought the boat. I guess my own caveats and criteria are based on what I personally would want to know, and look for, and I think I am not alone. I come from a different perspective though, and I am mainly speaking to people with the same perspective. I am a dad, I have family that love to wakesurf on both sides. We host lots of people all the time that ride both sides. My caveats and criteria come from that perspective. I think many identify with that, but many don't, and thats ok.
Someone like Jeff Walker, has 1 kid and he is one of the best in the world. His whole family rides regular. A guy like him may have a perspective, "find me the best regular wake, period, and thats what I want". I am not saying that is Jeff's perspective, but it could be. My criteria would mean nothing to him, and so it shouldn't.
I think what we need is a place to demo some of these great boats in one place, hmm......
@Dennis: Thanks for the vids and pics. I think a lot of people have been waiting to see what the 226 can do and it looks great. The one great thing about having a bigger guy ride is that it shows how much push that wave has. You can not see that from a pic. BTW - I know the driver adds weight, but from my experience the drivers weight is generally more than offset by the fact that you are running the trim tab all the way down (pushing the nose of the boat down). So you still need to run a little more weight to get the height of the wave back. But again, does not matter to me. I just want to know what set up works best on both sides.
"Not really sure what the tab setup was as I was never near the drivers seat and we changed it a lot." - From Drew up above: "The trim was up or off on regular side and KK told me to put it all the way down for the goofy side"
I think the issue is that you consider the caveat, a BASH, to use your term. It is not. I think it is safe to say that this boat has not been fully dialed in yet. But I know Dennis Horton, and if it takes 500 extra lbs and a change in the wakeplate, he will state that. I would too. Its not a bash, its just full disclosure. Its the kind of information a buyer would want to know before he bought the boat. I guess my own caveats and criteria are based on what I personally would want to know, and look for, and I think I am not alone. I come from a different perspective though, and I am mainly speaking to people with the same perspective. I am a dad, I have family that love to wakesurf on both sides. We host lots of people all the time that ride both sides. My caveats and criteria come from that perspective. I think many identify with that, but many don't, and thats ok.
Someone like Jeff Walker, has 1 kid and he is one of the best in the world. His whole family rides regular. A guy like him may have a perspective, "find me the best regular wake, period, and thats what I want". I am not saying that is Jeff's perspective, but it could be. My criteria would mean nothing to him, and so it shouldn't.
I think what we need is a place to demo some of these great boats in one place, hmm......
Ragboy: I am seriously just sitting around watching football while the family is away. So I am just ribbing you because I just found it a little ironic that the new Supreme 226 is going to have to be set up some what the same way as an Enzo (trim tab down and more weight on the dark side).
@jkw, I don't find any of this an issue, or even take it as more than just friendly debate. So no worries. I think this stuff is great. Because we will keep pushing the manufacturers to get better and better. When I see that, I think its funny that on my boat, even the wake plate is exactly the same on both sides. I honestly don't know why. You can look at those 2 videos I posted in the board advice thread, the only difference is the rooster on top of the regular wake, makes that part look taller, but its not, its the same. There are slight differences. I truly weight exact on both sides, and exact on taps. I also truly don't think the supreme is a lesser boat, because it may be a bit different. However, if you needed a 750 lb sac on the seats in the supreme on the goofy side, I may feel different. I just don't want that in my boat. Again, MY boat. So, the friendly debate/banter, is all good IMHO. I have thick skin, literally. Apparently circus freak thick skin. ;-)
@ragboy: the RZ2 is more like my Avalanche (both sides very clean and nice). However, the reason I am excited is because the 226 is going to be more like the Enzo. I just have not found another boat with same type of push as an Enzo on the regular side (and I only ride on the regular side). Watching Dennis spin 3's just proves that the 226 has a lot of push in it. Dennis is not even pumping the board for speed!
Let me clear up a couple of points JKW. The goofy side takes less weight then the regular side. Not the other way around. The hull is completely different than the Enzo. The Enzo is a Reinell hull and has a different shape than the V226.
Let me clear up a couple of points JKW. The goofy side takes less weight then the regular side. Not the other way around. The hull is completely different than the Enzo. The Enzo is a Reinell hull and has a different shape than the V226.
Both designed by the same guy?? How do we know this?
Please share.
@ragboy: the RZ2 is more like my Avalanche (both sides very clean and nice). However, the reason I am excited is because the 226 is going to be more like the Enzo. I just have not found another boat with same type of push as an Enzo on the regular side (and I only ride on the regular side). Watching Dennis spin 3's just proves that the 226 has a lot of push in it. Dennis is not even pumping the board for speed!
I am trying to say that the Enzo was a Reinell hull. The V226 is totally different than the Enzo. Not the same design or theory with regards to boat design.
Let me clear up a couple of points JKW. The goofy side takes less weight then the regular side. Not the other way around. The hull is completely different than the Enzo. The Enzo is a Reinell hull and has a different shape than the V226.
I heard you on this. I just would have to see this in person. I just can not get my head around how you can drive the bow of the boat down (trim tab down) and use less weight to get the same wave. I am not saying I dont believe you, just is the opposite of what I have experienced.
"I am trying to say that the Enzo was a Reinell hull. The V226 is totally different than the Enzo. Not the same design or theory with regards to boat design."
I was not trying to say the hulls were the same. I thought I had read somewhere that the hulls were designed by the same guy. I could be wrong, but it would be an interesting question to get an answer to. But either way, it really does not matter. I think the real advantage that the 226 has is less the hull and more the top cap. You should be able to run more weight and it be safer. The 226 locker are deep.
How far was the top cap out of water while surfing. I am thinking about getting another boat just to be on the safer side. My lake is very very very large and get's some bad water. I just want the best surf wave with a tall safe boat. My avy throws an amazing wave but the back corner of my boat is under water.
Let's get the facts straight, the first 23 foot Centurion Concourse was based on a Reinell hull to give Centurion a base platform to start designing that boat with. They brought in Dave and he designed the current Enzo hull, the Concourse hull was scraped all together, so this Reinell hull of the Concourse was NEVER used on any ENZO model. The fact is Dave designed the Enzo hull from scratch for Centurion. Keep in mind that the V226/Supreme is owned by Kal Kustom and were made by Fineline originally. Most engineers/designers find something that works and usually do not deviate much from it, the basic design concept remains the same with subtle differences here and there. I have talked to multiple people that have seen the Enzo and V226 side by side and they all say the same thing, at first glance the hulls look identical. Once you look at both hulls carefully you start to see the subtle differences the biggest being the difference in the shape of the bow but the bottom is basically the same. So the V226 is the same theory and is the same basic hull design as the Enzo.
How far was the top cap out of water while surfing. I am thinking about getting another boat just to be on the safer side. My lake is very very very large and get's some bad water. I just want the best surf wave with a tall safe boat. My avy throws an amazing wave but the back corner of my boat is under water.
I know exactly what you are talking about, I sold my 07 Avy in early June. If you go back to page 2 where the teaser link of the video is, in one of the last pics where Shelby (girl) is riding you can see the water at the rubrail (perfect wake) and the top deck (storage hatch) of the boat is about 10 inches above that
So here you go, this was sent to me, and I was asked to help post. This is a side shot of the boat, looks pretty safe to me, only that about 400 lbs is out of the boat and in the water filming! But the boat looks like even adding that, still very safe.
Riverrunner's post must be true if dennish isn't trying to debate it....
Duffy, the rubrail on the V226 looks to be quite a bit higher than on my Enzo. Therefore ballasting down to the rubrail should give you a nice wave that is safe at the same time.
What Riverrunner says may be true but that is not what I was told by an industry source. I will do more research and confirm or deny it. I do believe that the bottoms on the Enzo and the V226 a substantially different in the amount of vee.
I know I'm late to the thread but I still wanted to throw out my opinion on the boat. I LOVE the wake on the, reg...dark... port side of the boat. I loved it from the first time I rode it at Camp Far West. Whatever it is about that boat, I have a hard time falling out the back. I'm not an engineer so I have no clue what gives the wake so much push but its there and it works. I think for recreational use this boat is great. It has a lot of free board so on busy days you don't have to worry about other boat wakes splashing up onto your back hatches and engine cover. From the wakes that I have ridden the only two comparable are a competition weighted Enzo, if you have two boats with opposite rotation, and the Tige RZ2, also over weighted for normal recreational use. I would love to ride the RZ2 with less weight in it than I have ridden previously seen but I have yet to get a chance. I'm sure it will happen soon though, Right Robert?
As for the goofy...Right.. dark... starboard side. I think that we never did get it weighted right. It had some slop on the lip and wasn't equal to the port side. However, it did have a ton of push when I rode it. I'm not the most comfortable riding backside but I had FUN doing it and that's all that really matters. I watched spin 3's like it was nothing, on his own board and on MY board. Even with almost the entire board submerged. (Sorry Dennis, I think it is a bit small for you.) I do believe with more tweaking with weight and placement the wake would be great.
I don't know how this boat would be for a competition boat because I have not ridden bot sides with the weight maxed, but sometime in the near future I am hoping i can share my two cents on this too.
Overall the day with Grant from Cal Marine Sports, Dennis and my parents was a blast. Great boat, great water and great times.
Absolutely James. When my custom sacs are in, which will be our daily weight, perfected. We will have you out, looking forward to it. Having my RZ2 in with those other boats, the Enzo and the V226 is good company, all great boats.
@ Brian, the 3rd pic on the regular side he just fell out of the wake... The 2nd pic on the goofy side he managed to pump back in.
@Ragboy, Setup Regular: Stock rear 350lbs, Sumo surf 900 almost full 800lbs+, front end Launch Pad 540lbs on seat. spotter 210lbs and the green hornet spotter 75lbs.... as you can see he likes to move around!
Goofy side: Stock rear 350lbs, Sumo surf 900 almost full 800+, LP 540 with 400+/- on seat behind driver and LP 540 on front seat.... Green hornet 75lbs wherever he feels.
Generally I try to keep everything off the seats, but our people weight were in the other boat taking pictures.
We are playing on lake okanagan in Kelowna B.C. Canada.... the lake has been dead for the past 3 weeks so we have been trying to play everyday...
DREW, I'm so sorry I totally forgot to thank you for having me and my family out on your boat, feeding us and having Norbi film, its my day off 12:30 in the afternoon is too early for me to post lol. You made it fun and your boat is sick! The wake was ridiculous. It blew me away. The same thoughts I shared above apply to your boat as well. I do believe we had your boat weighted more but the rub rail was still above the water. We had 10 people plus ballast the one session and i cant say enough about how well the boat drove and how clean the wake was. Thanks again.
I was amazed by the spine of this boat. It's similar to an Enzo, but without the "slippery" feel, IMO. It felt like the water coming up the spine would literally just push the board around to complete 360's. The very first one I tried completed so fast I was caught by surprize.
The shape and I guess it's "water flow" up the spine, on this wake were really impressive.
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