DELTA UNDER ATTACK!!!

OK, since politics is going sooooo good for the country lately, I thought I would add to the unrest.

These biologists, water resources people, politicians, local farmers, and whoever else LA can buy off are planning on choking off the delta. There is a plan underfoot that is called "Dual Conveyance". This is where they build a big aquaduct bypassing the delta to increase water flows to southern California. They also are planning to augment the flows by channeling water through the delta via locking gates and access restrictions.

This is done for 2 reasons. First to channel water around the delta smelt habitat so that the pumps kill less fish. Sounds good right. No testing or science has supported this conclusion. It was done on a computer model. Second and most important reason to do this is to increase water flows to southern California. Their water districts have been buying up farms all over the bay area just to claim their water rights. By doing so they claim to have property interest in the delta as the primary water conveyance resource.

A little background, when they turned the pumps off to the California Aquaduct because they were destroying fish habitat, they had to come up with alternatives. Unfortunatley the alternatives will dramatically impact boating on the delta. In addition, the alternatives are short on improving fish habitat and long on protecting LA water supplies; but, most importantly they infringe on the Nor Cal boater and fisherman's rights. They will build these locks and gates that will greatly reduce the water you can ride on. They will also increase the salinity in the north delta around Bethel Island and may even see a spike in Disco Bay.

This is a bad plan and it all centers around southern California's failure to plan for water demand. They have only recently started a reservoir system (filled by delta water). They have no real workable reclamation program. They also have very ineffective rationing enforcement. Think back to the last drought. Every one in Nor Cal had their yards die so So Cal could wash their cars.

I'm not trying to start a North vs. South war, but WTF. My riding, fishing, water quality is all impacted because of it. They should be working on desalinization and reclamation. Or better yet try controlling your usage like we are mandated up here.

People's irresponsible consumption has increased my water bill, but So Cal pays less per cu/ft. All I can say is thanks for the increased costs, the decreased stripe bass and salmon, the decreased ride-able water, the stupid quagga mussel, and that ridiculous Austria Governor.

Nor-Cal folks, get involved. This thing is not over yet.

http://resources.ca.gov/bdcp/

Get informed before So Cal ruins something else!

Good post!

That stimulus plan is probably giving them a blank check to proceed with this too!

At least we don't say "Hella".

You need to do like alot of us California natives are doing MOVE TO ANOTHER STATE because your whining ain't gonna do sheet

If a peripheral canal is built, it will change the Delta as we know it forever. Common sense would dictate that Socal should get their water from Socal sources.

This is not to make anyone mad, but Southern California is a major hub for much of the income that California takes in. The fact that we are in a budget crisis, I would not expect anyone in government to do anything to upset the balance of power. The fact of the matter is say what you want that Southern California is over priced but property taxes in Southern California account for a major portion of the state income. You even out the income generated by by Northern California to that of Southern California (i.e. raise your taxes) and I would support your ideas.

Erik- That's a ridiculous argument.
You're saying that because of greater population, Socal pays more taxes than Norcal. Therefore they are entitled to Norcal water. Socal's taxes support Socal state programs and infrastructure. I have no concrete data to support this, but I would bet that the per capita income in Norcal is somewhat higher than Socal and therefore there is a net bleed of capital in the form of taxes from Norcal to Socal. The fact that Socal contributes more gross dollars to the state treasury in no way entitles them to Norcal water. Because of the higher population, Socal uses more of the state's resources than Norcal, and therefore should contribute more in taxes.

What I am saying is that if you start to tell some of the people they have to let their yard die or can't do what they consider "normal" living like washing their car, they will begin to leave. The housing cost and property taxes alone make people want to leave. Now I don't advocate this thinking, but the bottom line you have to be careful who you drive out as they make up a large portion of the income.
Yes your per capita theory is most likely correct, but that is because of a lack of immigration regulations. If you remove anyone making under $50,000 from the equation the per capita income of that group would not even be close, Socal I would bet 10 times the amount of per capita income.
For example I pay $10,000 in property taxes a year, now if you tell me I have to let my grass die, well then I might as well move to a condo. Well I would pay only about $4,000 in property taxes for condo, who makes up the $6k in loss income? is norcal? that is my point.

by the way you guys have been fighting this same problem for ever. this is nothing new, get over it already

While it sounds horrible you must admit that if they go through with this plan its going to take them at least 20 years to get the project done. By then Im sure there will be another plan to counter act the damages done to us here.

"Whiskey's for drinking, Water's for Fighting!!!!"

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quote:

By Peter T (deltawake) on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 6:44 am:

Common sense would dictate that Socal should get their water from Socal sources.

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how is that common sense when most of california's fresh water lakes are in northern and central cal?

I say FU LA

Common sense says if you don't have a reliable source for local water YOU DON'T BUILD THERE!

Bottom line - It's cheaper to drain the Delta then build dams.

"Socal I would bet 10 times the amount of per capita income."

"Common sense says if you don't have a reliable source for local water YOU DON'T BUILD THERE!"

BINGO!!!

And:

maybe it's time people start leaving given we obviously don't have the resources to support them!

building here was initiated over 100 years ago, so there's nothing to do about that now.

i don't know why norcal people hate socal so much. we're 1 state.

Its not about hating socal, its hating the fact that your stealing our water. We should start selling our water to you guys. hahaha

people just think so cal has more money becuase people flaunt it there and its all about show. Not everyone obviously but that is majority of the upper class there. theres a lot of new money

Nor Cal isnt as bad and is more old money based.

Yes but how many from DWP would be unemployed from central and northern cali? just what we need.
And Rich if you are going to quote someone then you should really quote the whole statement, unless you are in the media.

It funny how the residents of Nor Cal say its OUR water, No its not its the State of California's water.

So-Cal needs desalination plants! Costs more but that's the cost of living there.

machew, I love your passion. I grew up learning how to ride on the Delta. BUT, I have to agree with coz on this one. The whole state is going to hell in a hand basket. Get out while the getting is good. The quality of life is better in other states. Its not worth staying in my opinion.

i've been looking for a topic for my sr. thesis and this looks like the one. when i get it all sorted out and complete i'll post it up so ya'll can take a look at what i come up with.

Perhaps it is time to rethink using Delta Water for SoCal needs altogether. There is plenty of water in some rivers farther North and dormant plans to build incredible public works projects to tap into that supply; projects that would make the California Aquaduct seem small. Maybe that could be a Hoover Dam project for our great recession. Put some of that stimulus to good use. While we are at it, I don't see the Canadians using all their Western rivers either. Maybe we could get some of that as well. John Wesley Powell told the government 130 years ago that there wasn't enough water in the Western states to support permanent habitation.

Maybe you should start thinking about siding with the environmentalists. The salmon runs are dying off and much of it is due to over fishing and pollution along with dammed rivers/streams and too much water diversion. They cured the over fishing part by completely canceling the salmon season for years to come. Pollution is something we all will have to deal with eventually as we are dying of cancer. Now the dammed rivers/streams along with having enough water flow (No diversions) to continue the salmon runs is where things get accomplished. Would you be willing to stand next to a Sierra Club member and work together? They get more done for environmental causes than any other agency in California. Water flow through the Delta into the San Francisco Bay is very important to the ecology of our area and the ONLY way we can succeed is to have one of the wealthiest anti-everything groups on our side. They have deep pockets and many many retires (Including lawyers) with little to do other than passionately pursue their causes.

As you can see they are not able to continue using pumps because of a little fish, the bigger fish is the starting point. Oh and do not forget sturgeon as they run up the Delta too.

Man this is bad. I am very interested in conservation and wildlife management. I know the main priority on this forum would be boating. However, right now the best move would be to get on the side of protecting the waters of the Delta and showing support there. It would definately mess up the delta fishing it sounds like. If you can get a wakeboarding group of people to get on board with environmental protection of the waters along with other organizations I think you would stand a great chance at protecting your riding spot along with making many fisherman and wildlife supporters very happy. Environmentalist groups have a lot of say through their non-profit groups and you might be suprised how much they would recieve your support and work together for the common cause.
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful concerned citizens can change the world. Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” (Margaret Mead)

"And Rich if you are going to quote someone then you should really quote the whole statement, unless you are in the media."

sure!

"If you remove anyone making under $50,000 from the equation the per capita income of that group would not even be close, Socal I would bet 10 times the amount of per capita income."

"For example I pay $10,000 in property taxes a year, now if you tell me I have to let my grass die, well then I might as well move to a condo. Well I would pay only about $4,000 in property taxes for condo, who makes up the $6k in loss income? is norcal? that is my point."

Well I'm paying close to 20K a year so I guess I am. Besides property taxes go primarily to the individual counties that collect them.

I'm amazed, all the major issues here and you're worried about your lawn?

No more water suckage!

Yes taxes go to counties for schools, roads, and other projects. When there is a short fall in funds the state subsidizes the projects or deficit, since property taxes have a limit.

Second if you are paying 20K in taxes you are not making up the difference in my example. You would then have to pay 26K to make up loss income. You can call BS all you want but SoCal has been supporting this state fiscally for years, that is a fact.

Last as far as environmental I am no specialist, but I didn't see anything in the original post that talks about major issues. Not being argumentative here, I was just wondering if anyone has any links to more info on the topic. I am not necessarily for the issue, but so far it seems like several wakeboards upset because their riding spots would be effected (I don't blame you I would to), but unless I missed something I didn't see anything supporting contradiction to the claims of this act.

Erik-

Socal has more people. They require more roads, more schools, more DMV offices etc. etc.etc. Boo hoo if they have to pay their proportional share for those services. That does not mean that Socal has been supporting the state fiscally. They are paying their fair share.

Bring back the State of Jefferson!!

California would be so benefited by breaking into two or three parts.

Actually in regards to supporting the state, I was referring to the tourism that is drawn into Southern California. And I am not crying about it, I just suck it up, just like you shouldn't be doing the boo hoo "they're taking my water"

If that happened So Cal would look a lot more like Tijuana.


What ever happened to the Lake Mead project that was going to route water to So Cal and relive their need for Nor Cals supply?
Sad thing is our pending drought situation is due to the So Cal demand from our reservoirs.

Gary I think part of it down there already looks like tijuana. haha

Hey Coz, "Move to another state..." The problem is, too many people did, to here. Your reply is STUPID.However, maybe me and 20 million other Californians will take your advice and move to another state, yours. Then we can proceed to ruin everything good about Arizona, including your favorite lake. Thanks for the invite, moron.

Hey Coz, "Move to another state..." The problem is, too many people did, to here. Your reply is STUPID.However, maybe me and 20 million other Californians will take your advice and move to another state, yours. Then we can proceed to ruin everything good about Arizona, including your favorite lake. Thanks for the invite, moron.

what needs to happen is for everyone to stop watering their dam sidewalks and gutters. i see lawn sprinklers on all the time and the majority of the facking water is going right back into the storm drains. i have to go on water rationing because people want to water the lawn for an hour a day. conserve people. i dont want the delta to change at all... and yes i think that the delta is N.Cals. dont build in a desert and complain about no water..

and yes S.Cal is a bunch of cocky people. never will i go down there. Flame suit on to try burning me. its an opinion

^^^Comming from a Davis student, bet you couldn't get into UCLA

i love how all they show on that site is open fields and no homes remotly near anything.... hey look we dont live here! im tired of these people... we all know its some jack @#$ that has never even been on the delta...

Even the most casual of observers know that the Sierra snow pack is not what it used to be. Point is , they could build the biggest aqua duct on the planet and it still would not guarantee that the water to "move south" would even exist. Southern Ca. is already overbuilt, if they a guaranteed source of water I agree with the desalination idea.

Actually we already have. California has by far the largest water supply system in the world.

"Cadillac Desert" by Mark Reisner is a must read about water issues in the west.

Not only is Reisner's book an amazing chronicle of US water policies since John Wesley Powell's days surveying for BLM, it is a great read. I can't drive down I-5 from the Bay to LA now without seeing the central valley in a totally different light. The water issues in California and the other arid Western States are not going away. I really believe the recession and the public works plans that will emerge will address the Delta's many issues one way or another. The special interest groups and stakeholders are lining up to do battle. The State can't and won't handle this issue alone. The Federal Bureau of Land Management and the Bureau of Reclamation will be the main players. Put your Congressperson and Calif. Senator's on speed dial.

I'd love to see a study of the average individual incomes over all for both the norcal and socal population!

I'm not for exploiting natural water resources whether it's north or south however, we certainly have had our share or growth up here that's not water resource friendly.

And before anyone thinks I have nothing to lose personally by limiting water rights as mentioned above, I'm in a construction trade and I rely on new residential construction for about 90% of my business.

So Cal people continue to miss the point!

Nor Cal can fix these problems easy. We need to repair the levees and restore the water flows. It will improve local water quality and restore fish populations. However, the water flows will never improve if So Cal does not become more responsible with their usage. Every California drought Nor Cal is required to cut back on usage. Building is more expensive in Nor Cal because of water issues. We pay more for water in general. This is ridiculous! The last major drought every person in Nor Cal was prohibited from watering their lawn. Everyone's yard died, yet every night we got to see on the news how every office complex, sports field, and so cal car wash got plenty of water with no restrictions.

What needs to happen is a desalinization plant to be built in So Cal. Period. Stop draining the delta. So Cal requires 15K cfs of water for their usage and average delta water flows are down to 6K. So you want damn the delta down to a few channels so you can get your full 15 and turn the bay area into a salt marsh.

Nor Cal we need to stop this!!!!!!!!! Make your politicians build a desalinization plant in So Cal, cut off the water diversions from the delta, repair the levees and restore the flows to improve fish habitat. Sorry but you guys down south are just about to kill everything up here so you can water your lawns.

If you want to know more about how fish are killed by low water flows or the hydrodynamics of the delta you can ask me, I went to UCLA.

If you want to know how to "legally" destroy an ecosystem, restrict recreation for millions of boaters, and devastate hundreds of food producing farms just ask a So Cal lawyer or politician(who probably went to USC).

I have the solution.

SoCal, you guys take NorCal's water.
Nor Cal, you guys take Oregon's water.
Voila, problem solved.

You guys make me appreciate Wisco...

Solution is to drink a little extra beer next time we're are out in the boat!

"SoCal, you guys take NorCal's water.
Nor Cal, you guys take Oregon's water."
agree

Do all those crazy environmentalists know about this plan yet? I have a feeling they'll be more than willing to pull a random species of animal out of their ass that exists only in the delta that would go extinct if any water was diverted.

I also like the idea of nor-cal getting more water from Oregon. Maybe we can make like so-cal and use their tax dollars for it, too.

SO CAL is just a tragic environmental mistake. It has enough water to support 2 million people yet 22 million live there. It is inhabitable and people should move from there. The only way it can survive is by stealing water. I know this is true because I saw the movie "China Town". }

1 vote for best thread!

I lived in Socal and now live in Norcal. I get so sick an tiered of hearing people up here claim the water out of the CALIFORNIA mountains as there own, its commical. And actually I cant wait to move back to Socal. LOL

why is water commercial?? why do i have to pay someone to drink it? those are questions only hippies can answer.

but live on the delta and then you can chime in.

some of my family lives in SoCal, some in Norcal and honestly other than maybe New Jersey SoCal would be the last place I would ever want to live. Horrible place, even for a vacation

Yeah Nick I know Newport Beach and Huntington is horrible. LOL Being able to swim in the ocean all year long and girls on the boardwalk in bathing suits in December sucks!!! Id hate to vacation in San Diego espessially, nothing to do there!!! LOL

im surprised socal people want to drink the water i pee in so badly haha

i bet if they saw some of the things ive seen on the delta they'd all be voting for a de-sal plant instead.

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quote:

^^^Comming from a Davis student, bet you couldn't get into UCLA

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why would i want to live in a place where they have to import dirt? its not called the concrete jungle for nothin

Dear Michael ImObersteg, That's great that you want to return to "So Cal", I'll help you pack.

ha ha damn tree huggers make me laugh.. lol

Dear Joe somthingorother, actually I was the one who said I want to return to "SO CAL". Nor worries though maybe you need to wash some of that mud out of your eyes? Oh and I dont need help packing theres plenty of good ol boys up here whod LOVE to help a sothern cali guy get out of town. LOL

(Message edited by bkoz on April 02, 2009)

I hate those SoCal-ers

The lakes we have here are Elsinore, Elsinore and Elsinore...oh and 1/2 of Perris. I think the water problem will never change. That's why I want to move to NorCal.

ahaha i was like "SO CAL" i didnt even say that... long name huh Joe. you dont realize how long it is till you spell it out

Byron, Good for you. THAT WAS MY MISTAKE. Trying to cook dinner and posting at the same time is not a good idea, at least for me. This whole thing has me pretty fired up. Do I think N. Ca. people own this water? No, but I sometimes wonder if people down South think that there is an endless supply of water here. There isn't, so people who love the Delta get a little "concerned ". This year's snow pack is in the low 80% at best, and many lakes will get to only 70% capacity, maybe.Makes more water going South seem a little crazy. Anyway Byron, my mistake, and I don't mean to single you out with this "sermon", for all I know you agree. Good luck if you go South. As for some Delta mud, can,t wait. And to Mr. ImObersteg,I guess I won't be helping you pack either. Sorry for the mix up.

This reminds me of when the south west wanted to build a pipeline from the great lakes all the way down for the water. You guys in Nor Cal need to come up with some billboards like this.

Its cool Joe I was just messing with you. The delta is my favorite place to boat by far and being from down south ive hit up every place on the colorado river, havy, mead, mohave ect..... Theres just nothing at all like the Delta and it would be a shame to see anything bad happen to it for any reason. Im only defending the place i grew up in and having lived in both the north and south I know the differances, good and bad.

Oh and btw, to answer your question, YES for the most part people down south do think theres an endless supply of water. Or at least they're definately not concerned about it like the people from up here.

They'll ban boating on the Delta if it gets down to protecting the water supply.

The politicians know it's hard to get up in the morning and head down to collect your entitlement check when you're dying of thirst!

All you young-uns aren't going to have time to boat either - you'll be too busy working to pay off the debt the govt / state is rolling up right now (and for my retirement)

the one problem is if they ban boats then my home town like Discovery bay is going to burn in hell.... i dont really know if its possible for them to do that but then again it seams possible for politicions to do anything they want these days.

People on welfare still get to vote that's why nothing's safe.

California is near the top of the list when it comes to the amount of income tax we all pay yet it's also one of the most in debt. Everything we do here costs more when it comes to public fees, property tax, sales tax etc - where the hell is it all going?

Why can't they figure out a way to get them their water and pay for it without wrecking all our natural resources?

This water issue has been a problem for a very long time. The environmentalists have stopped most attempts already to create more reservoirs, etc... Now it's all coming to a head. My dad has a farm up in Norcal and he has almost entirely been cut off from the water he needs to irrigate his crops. For the past 7 or 8 years they have just been using the water anyway and paying the fines each year. Now the state is, from what I can understand, pretty much going to physically prevent them from pumping water from the delta. Now he's stuck with several hundreds of acres of land, that's zoned for agriculture, that can't be used.

There's plenty of water for central valley farming, always has been except when So Cal has increased their demand beyond what the delta can provide. Now the ecosystem is dying and boating is being threatened. What has So Cal done to prevent this or help in the effort, build more homes and take more water. They're are making the problem worse and not providing any solutions. They are not changing behavior at all. So, they are buying up water rights and choking off farms, next the delta.

So Cal take some responsibility. Cut your usage like we do here, ask your officials to build a desalinization plant, and add a reclamation project or two. These are or can be "shovel ready projects". If we are going to bankrupt the country with spending let's try to do something that has value along the way (instead of adding bureaucracies).

i got a good idea, if they take it we should just break some levys.lol problem solved if we cant have it then neither can so cal... remember how crazy that levy got like around 2000 when it broke? so bad (just a joke guys)

One thought on So-Cal influence. They had a major earthquake in 1994. The Santa Monica Freeway was rebuilt in record time. Nor-Cal had a major earthquake in 1989. I hope I live long enough to see them finish rebuilding the Bay Bridge.

there building an all new bridge not fixing the old

Interestingly DWR did a study of boat traffic at a proposed gate site and got almost 50 boats an hour during the summer. Needless to say the engineers were baffled by the fact people do boat the delta. This was a site where they wanted to have a truck and trailer just move boat from one side of the gate to the other.

As for the nor versus so cal debate, its actually the water intensive crops grown un-sustainably in very arid regions of SoCal. That are using a majority of the water sold by private corporations to SoCal .

Cheers....

Like that set up at the end of Grantline where they had this micky mouse little trailer to move boats around that temporary dam. Like to see that rig move a slammed Xstar!

dennis where did you find that study the DWR did?

The worst thing about that study is that they did it when marina boat gas was around 6 bucks a gallon. It may be a little different this year, but they aren't doing the study this year. I love government interventions, real efficient...

I'm not gonna lie...all you Californians sound like complainers hahaha

here's a link to the Sierra Club website that has a lot of usefull info about the water situation here in California.

there's a little bit about the south delta water project that GW & Schwarzenaaaager endorsed to increase pumping down here more than 25%.