Thanks for following along and asking about that board. Yeah, the first four pictures are of that new prototype. It's 3/4" thick and uses 4 layers of 6 oz Carbon Fiber in a sandwich construction.
It's crazy super stiff. Stiffest board I've ever made, which I think, is one of the critical elements in a wakesurfer. Also, being only 3/4" thick along with the Futures 3/2/1 fins, it was very responsive. You'd think turn and it already had. I'm not sure that's everyone's cup of tea, there was no slop or leeway but for precision maneuvering, it's hard to beat.
jeff im scared but have to ask...... what would that retail for with that much carbon. wow. 3/4'', that is mega thin. how much does it weigh? could james tell if it had more pop being that stiff (since i havent seen you jumping in any pics )?
@board usa. how long is that board? what do you think of how the picklefork rides?
Yeah the price at retail would be insane. Maybe $1,200. The increase in the cost of the material over fiberglass is probably an extra 150 to 200 but the increase in labor is huge. Carbon Fiber is so misreable to work with because it's visible (fiberglass becomes transparent with resin) which means every imperfection shows up, while not a problem structurally, it looks like crap if the weave isn't straight or there is a pull or run somewhere. Those issues aren't present with fiberglass.
LOL, yeah I'm not getting any air! James liked it and we're working on a followup board. The 3/4" thickness is pretty thin for a surf style board, but I was hoping to minimize the stiffness impact. If I go 1.5 inches thick, doubling the thickness, it will be 7 times stiffer! With the sandiwhc construction, stiffness exponetially increases with thickness (increase the thickness to 3 inches or 4 times the original and stiffness would increase 37 times). That's probably too much. As it is, James said that it had lots of pop, but it affected his timing a bunch. The rebound is much quicker than what he's accoustomed to.
Weight wise it was 4 pounds 15 oz ready to ride. Thanks for the interest and following along John.
This Pickle fork board is 54" x 21 x 1.750, and rode real well with a sorta round tail and fins set back a tick . I tried 4 different sets of fins to see what ones i liked. I started with the V2F4 fins and rode a half mile or something before falling off, then changed it up. This board rode fast and i never lost speed on any lip trix i did, the rounder tail seems to be more forgiving then a diamond tail or notch. This board has lots of surface area with wide point set further back like SS boards and rides with a back foot , so it rides fast and you dont have to pump it much at all unless you are going over 12 mph. The BHob bottom contour and a V going out the back it is quick rail to rail. I never had a problem falling or sliding off the face of the wake like boards with fins set further up from the tail of the board. I rode the board about 40 minutes and had no one else on the boat to surf with so i couldnt get real comfortable with the board. It was also the first time to ride with 5mm gloves and boots So my footing felt crazy. Also the cork traction i wanted to try out did not come in so i used a full deck traction that was .5# heavier then normal style traction.
Last edited by brewkettle; 01-02-2012 at 6:36 PM.
Reason: oops
@board usa. are you an innovator or sellsman. would be fun to try.
@jeff pretty wild about the stiffness calculation. how would having horizontal or vertical strips affect it.... as in instead of solid or on the rails(like the board in the btm pic) but say 8 or 10 1'' strips across (vertically, horizontal would obviously take many more).
Thanks for the ideas John! You need to design and build these things. It's possible to buy Carbon Fiber tape in a 1" width, so your concept is doable. I think the width-wise orientation would probably create a weak point where it alternated between carbon and no carbon. The predimoninant orientation of flex would be perpendicular to the carbon fiber tape and with the CF being so much stiffer than whatever was in between, it would be almost like a fulcrum focusing the energy or bending forces to one of the NON-carbon area's.
I'm still trying to sort through all of the observations from this last batch of testing! So many different ways to skin a cat. Thanks again for your interest and following along and the questions!
Thanks for the ideas John! You need to design and build these things. It's possible to buy Carbon Fiber tape in a 1" width, so your concept is doable. I think the width-wise orientation would probably create a weak point where it alternated between carbon and no carbon. The predimoninant orientation of flex would be perpendicular to the carbon fiber tape and with the CF being so much stiffer than whatever was in between, it would be almost like a fulcrum focusing the energy or bending forces to one of the NON-carbon area's.
I'm still trying to sort through all of the observations from this last batch of testing! So many different ways to skin a cat. Thanks again for your interest and following along and the questions!
oh im not trying to give ideas, just curious how things work. i dont know much about CF. im just trying to learn. i like building/making things. it would be so fun to make boards and in yalls case have built the most reputable and sought after boards. with the CF on just the rails, like james comp board, how does that not create a weak point where it connects?
The predimoninant orientation of flex would be perpendicular to the carbon fiber tape and with the CF being so much stiffer than whatever was in between, it would be almost like a fulcrum focusing the energy or bending forces to one of the NON-carbon area's.
would the orientation of the tape vertical or horizontal on the board not change this?
Thanks for the compliments John. You'd have a blast building yoru own, I highly encourage it.
I'm not explaining this well. Wakesurf boards primary axis of flex is lengthwise nose to tail. The rails tend to receive the greatest amount of force. Remember that the Flyboy is a composite sandwich and is exceptionally stiff against bending loads in all flat planes. The carbon along the rails is against the primary flex force, plus so is the sandwich itself.
Failure on boards, like landing from an aerial, tends to start at a rail and work inward like a crease, seldom going all the way across, but that crease typically runs widthwise. You can imagine landing from an aerial where the flex was focused on the non carbon reinforced portion of the board. This wouldn't happen with the carbon running lengthwise. The reinforcement needs to be opposed to the force to be effective. If it isn't opposed to the force then the weakest areas receive the force, the reinforcement, in effect, doesn't do anything in that istance and that seques into...
On the second question: No, only if the orientation of the carbon tape is going against the flex. Lets look at a single wooden stringer down the center of a conventional surf board. It is running parallel to the application of the flexural forces and so resists those forces along it's length. If it were in the middle of the board running rail-to-rail it would have almost no resistance to the length-wise flex, until it actually HIT that widthwise stringer. My guess is that the board would break before that could happen, but if it didn't it would be like wishbone, break close to the reinforcement, but on the UNreinforced side.
I hope I didn't muddy it up worse, John! Thanks for the interest and questions.
John,
I seriously suggest you try building your own board.
You'd be suprised how much you figure out about the boards and how much fun it is.
Besides the fact of making it look like it snowed all over my garage, yard, clothes, hair etc. it was a blast.
My first board has some issues but it's suprising how well it will turn out and how much pride you have riding a board you built from scratch.
I just started on my second build and plan on by next summer having 3 or four built, it's addicting.
Jeff any tips on getting good results on the hot coat?
I had a really hard time on my first board. It didn't want to level out and seemed to pool in some spots and not coat others and even when I would spend lots of time getting it all even it would move on it's own.
Also when I went to try to sand/buff it out to a smooth finish it didn't want to polish out.
I used a 200-300-500 d/a sand then a buffer with wool pad.
I am using west system epoxy resin with no fillers or additives.
Should I use additive f with the west epoxy or a filler?
Hey cowwboy, sounds like fisheyes. Epoxy is a pain to work with and the fisheye results can come from any number of issues. Typically it's contamination like fingerprints or dust. Wiping the surface down with denatured alcohol can help and then use a brush that you throw away to spread it. I like to get the resin pretty warm using a microwave so that it flows really easily, also. Some folks have this huge routine, the hotcoat within 2 to 3 hours of application, use compressed air to blow off any dust and the like. The don't allow any dust in the area when hoatcoatting, etc. rather hard to do as a backyard builder. My routine is wipe down with dna using a lint free cloth. Let that dry. Heat the resin to close to 100 degrees F. Mix the hardener and 2 x additve F, slowly but thoroughly. Using a new brush spread it over the surface being careful not to froth it and then walk away. I also hotcoat and if I do a gloss on falling temperatures and never on a super humid day. I'll come back before that has cured and check for pinholes and bubbles and hit them with a heat gun to get them to pop.
Epoxy doesn't gloss that well, most of the gloss coats you see on production boards are either polyester, which glosses really well, or a 2 pac polyurethane spray.
On the additive F, I know it's mostly xylene and I'm not sure how well it works with West System epoxy, as oppossed to the Resin Research. It does help thin out the epoxy but I've never compared the viscosity of the two resins. Greg L of RR recomends twice the amount of Additive F for hotcoat and gloss coats.
Hope that helps! You might also check swaylocks.com there are about a million ways that folks do hotcoats trying to resolve the issue you describe.
You can use polyester over epoxy, it's pretty sticky stuff and there aren't any significant compatibility issues. I would use it for a GLOSS coat only and not the fill/hot coat. The hot/fill coat is still part of the structural component of your wakesurfer and all you want to do with that is fill in the weave and smooth out any lumps and bumps of the weave and for sanding.
Your lamination should be thin almost dryish. It's a skill, that's for sure!
I know some molded boards use a gelcoat exterior, it's a polyester, so I am sure you can. I'm not sure about the weight, though.
HI-5 to the Viland and Shannon.. Those are great pictures, your all Ripping.. Can't wait to hang with you guys in May. I surfed here last week in a drysuit and it wasn't bad, I was ready to start surfing regularly but we just got slamed with snow yesterday. We'll se if it sticks around.
Frank, cool Picts. We sure had a good time with ya. The Sanger 230 was a blast! Mike, when are you coming back to NorCal for a beer at the Sierra Nevada Brewery? Your Picts are fantastic. Still on the X-45?
Rob. Great pics of you guys! Great to see you again. Would love to come out and surf with you and your crew while enjoying one of my favorite beverages. We still have the X45 and have plenty of room for more surfers, hint-hint...
Ah would love to head that way. We'll have to see what we can do about getting out there. Glad to see you guys are out playing! Used a Soulcraft jetty at the polar bear event and loved it. 4'6" I think. It was a nice ride. Which ones are you guys playing with?
Rob. The great thing with Jeff at Soulcraft is you just call him up, give him your size and riding style, send him a barrel of cash, and he will custom design a sweet ride just for you.
I ride a 4'7", Angie rides a 4'5", and Shannon rides a 4'8".
Surfdad, long time reader first time responder (at least to you directly).
1. Is that the "40% aspect ratio slab o' foam slug" that is on your blog?
2. i am interested to see how that worked, mostly because i am a land locked surfer looking to upgrade my board. wakesurfers are difficult to demo and asking for "board advice" is difficult for the same reason. people just say "shorter" or "longer." I also loved the "Tyranny by the majority in wakesurfing " blog post and it peaked my interest becasue i feel the same way when asking for advice, especially when they ask "are you surf or skim style?" Hey man, i just want to maybe spin and maybe jump and have a good time! Plus i fall into the "i need alonger board cause i am 6' and 210ish" but i dont really know where to start.
Yes indeed, that is that 40% aspect ratio "slab o' foam". Finless and really curveless.
It's fast, I mean you could keep up with the boat with ease. It also would slide all over! It was super hard for me to control it, because even just looking to the left would cause the board to slide in that direction. James did better with it. He could carve it and pump it and just about landed a 3, but he's landed a 3 on an 11'ish foot long board. I love the concept of a mini-simmons like shape for bigger guys and that was what this experiment was for.
So, this finless slab is probably not a wise choice,. but a mini-simmons shape in the 5'sih foot length, maybe 22" wide and 2.5" thick I think would rock for bigger and taller guys, like yourself. Have you ever ridden a Lis Fish or Mini-simmons back in your surfer days?
The pics from yesterday are from the last time I could ride till May. Had surgery on my foot today so those last couple days were my final hoorah. But I have friends in low places... I'll see what my other friends are doing/going out around that time for ya. Where exactly is your reunion?
Wow my first time back on WakeWorld in over a year great to be back lol. Well tomorrow I will get to post some pics up of the 2012 Tige RZ3. Get to be one of the first in Idaho to check out that wave at Lucky Peak tomorrow morning. Real Cold water surfing might even be some ice chunks I do miss this sport!
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