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Old     (22parksm)      Join Date: Jan 2003       12-02-2003, 11:27 AM Reply   
Is the size of the wake smaller on salt water?
Old     (canaday)      Join Date: Dec 2002       12-02-2003, 11:33 AM Reply   
Old     (depswa)      Join Date: Nov 2000       12-02-2003, 12:06 PM Reply   
Not a HUGE difference, but I think it is a little smaller in the salt. There's really not enough difference between salt and fresh water to affect your riding though.
Old     (wakescene)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-02-2003, 12:27 PM Reply   
my answer flat out is NO!
For every 1foot of draft, your boat will sit 1/4" (Yes .25 inches) higher in salt than in fresh water.
My MC only drafts 22" so it would sit about 1/2" higher in salt than fresh.
If anyone can tell the difference of the wake size with that little of a difference in draft, I would be impressed!

Old     (board4food1)      Join Date: Jul 2002       12-02-2003, 3:01 PM Reply   
maybe i'm not understanding you correctly Kevin, but we judge how much water to put in the boat by how far the swim platform is under water b/c we always have a different number of people that weigh differently. In order to acheive the same kiss A$$ wake every time, we like the platform to be an inch or more under. A swim plateform 1/2 inch under the water isn't good enough. We like it to be an inch or more. I think it makes a difference. Maybe it's all in our heads.
Old    tribal            12-02-2003, 3:04 PM Reply   
Def notice a dif with salt water=smaller wake but the wake is also harder giving you more boost.I think I can catch higher air on salt water.
Old     (wakescene)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-02-2003, 8:59 PM Reply   
I hate it when threads take a turn like this but the simple answer is that it's a physics thing, I am not stating my info from a pre-school book. If you need the platform 1" or more under the surface...add more weight.
Again I stand by the fact that I don't think you will notice a difference, and will be VERY hard-pressed to notice a difference a 1/2" less draft!!!

I also don't think that you will notice a difference in firmness mainly b/c that has a lot to do with wake shape. In regards to Sean's comments about getting more air...I would gather that your technique with edging is getting better not just the water issue. I can pull Tantrums off a 16ft 40hp boston Whaler, and have the pics to prove it...and it was all possible b/c I underestand how to edge properly!


Old     (blabel)      Join Date: Jul 2001       12-02-2003, 9:56 PM Reply   
Kevin I switch between the two regularly and can tell you that there is a noticeable difference. I wish I had some comparison pics but everyone I ride with completely agrees.
Old    norcal_99            12-02-2003, 10:13 PM Reply   
Kevin, The question wasn't whether or not someone can or can not notice a difference, it was whether or not there is a difference.

Therefore, you are wrong. The simple answer is YES. Physics speaks.
Old     (wakescene)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-03-2003, 7:53 AM Reply   
ok just to satisfy everyone (I hate being PC) Rene is correct that on a "Scientific" level there is a difference.
This answers Koen's question.

I was trying to take it a step further and assume that he was asking if there is a difference from a "Human" standpoint because one can only think that Koen asked that question because he will be on saltwater sometime soon!!! My answer is based on the fact that UNLESS someone has an accurate way to measure a wake, there will be NO noticible difference from a human standpoint.

Old    tribal            12-03-2003, 8:16 AM Reply   
Kevin bully for you that you know how to edge properly maybe I do to.My point is the same as Bablemooch I regularly switch from salt to fresh and there is a big difference with bouyancy[hardness]You ever sat on your shortboard[surfboard] in fresh water you sit way lower.The first time I noticed this difference was years ago when I whitewater kayaked and took my kayak out in the surf.To roll back up took 1/4 the paddling power of freshwater and just paddling and bracing around the difference was huge.Don't be so righteous on your opinion when you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
Old     (blabel)      Join Date: Jul 2001       12-03-2003, 8:19 AM Reply   
Kevin all I have to do is get a camera out to show you the difference. But by the sounds of it you would probably accuse me of lying.

Do you switch between the two? Have you ever?

I can't believe I'm arguing over this but I know I am right!!
Old    stormrider            12-03-2003, 10:17 AM Reply   
Human perception is faulty. A classic example is a pilot almost flying into the ground when they were certain they were climbing. In criminal investigations, one person will say the suspect is 250lbs. A second will say he was 175.

My perception is also that salt water wakes are smaller. Kevin's science though seems solid. Might it make a difference if the boat is moving in salt water? Does that magnify the bouancy, thereby making the wake smaller than the same boat moving at the same speed through freshwater?
Old    tribal            12-03-2003, 10:44 AM Reply   
Theory and practise are not always the same.I'll put my money any day on the guy with loads of actual experience over theory.Theory is for schoolworms not real life.
Old     (board4food1)      Join Date: Jul 2002       12-03-2003, 10:55 AM Reply   
Old    swass            12-03-2003, 10:58 AM Reply   
Salt water is more buoyant than fresh water. Enough said.
Old     (board4food1)      Join Date: Jul 2002       12-03-2003, 11:01 AM Reply   
I too have ridden begind a dinky boston whaler that you rent at lake powell and can pull everything i can behind a good boat. but I can tell you hands down the amount of air and hang time in doing those tricks is very different. My edge is the same, so what would make the air time different? Gee, well I think it might be the wake. When you can do a switch 911, come talk to me about edging. Edging isn't even part of the question.
Old     (wakescene)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-03-2003, 12:30 PM Reply   
I end my time here with this...

I stated scientific fact about the difference in salt and fresh water in regards to draft.

YES I have boated in both salt and fresh water for the last 15 years. I think I would have a pretty good idea if there is a difference in wake size and so far as i have seen, there is none.

I'm out!
Old    wakeboard_iraq            12-03-2003, 2:11 PM Reply   

Here is what you said: "For every 1foot of draft, your boat will sit 1/4" (Yes .25 inches) higher in salt than in fresh water.
My MC only drafts 22" so it would sit about 1/2" higher in salt than fresh."

Think about this - how much additional ballast do you have to add to your boat to sink it that additional 1/2" (its a displacement question).

We all know that more ballast sinks the boat further into the water therefore creating a larger wake - I doubt anybody will contest that. You said yourself that your boat sits higher in salwater (your quote above) therefore..... smaller wake.

Is it a big difference? That was not the question.

Personally, I have noticed that the same boat makes a wake that at least appears smaller in saltwater and my board slides around a lot more than on fresh water - there is a chance that it could just be a perception in my mind, but I doubt it considering the physical fact that salt water is more dense.

That is pretty cool that you can do a tantrum behind a boston whaler though - I cant even do one behind a Nautique. haha
Old     (dbjts)      Join Date: Nov 2003       12-03-2003, 4:21 PM Reply   
On a lighter note salt water tastes worse than fresh water when you fall in and get a gob full I asked a rocket scientist why this was and he informed me that it was due to the salt content in salt water
Old     (depswa)      Join Date: Nov 2000       12-03-2003, 4:34 PM Reply   
here we go again...From this I gather that no one knows for sure!

It does make sense to me that because salt water is more dense, if the boat is traveling at 22 mph, it will ride higher on the water thus displacing less water (creating a smaller wake)than at 22 on freshwater where it will sink further and displace more water.

But what do I know? I know I can't throw a switch 911 and that's a fact!

Oh and what is draft...I just thought it was something that presidents dodged?

(Message edited by depswa on December 03, 2003)
Old    stormrider            12-03-2003, 4:49 PM Reply   
To jump back in, somebody knows, because there is an answer. It's a physics equation, I believe. Kevin's equation is, I believe accurate. The question seems to become whether the equation remains the same, that is it is proportional, when the boat is moving. My sense is that the equation is not proportional, it's logrithmic. Standing still, for example (just throwing out numbers) there would be 10% less displacement, but moving there is 25% less displacement, not 10%. Jim's right, though, it's a displacement issue, not an issue of one's riding experience-- which would only provide an anecdotal answer-- which is a good starting point but not "exact." Some might not care for exact (this wouldn't be their thread, then). Others of us (or maybe just me) think the math involved here is interesting. Chris Stack might know because he's good at these physics equations.

In the end, what does it mean-- . . . But, hey, it's an interesting question. I guess it would help us know how much extra weight to put in when riding on salt to get the same wake as when we ride on fresh. That would be definitely helpful to those whose riding is super wake sensitive.
Old    moe            12-03-2003, 9:23 PM Reply   
Man i could go for a tall draft about now! O wait--- thats a different kind of draft!
Old     (stephan)      Join Date: Nov 2002       12-04-2003, 11:29 AM Reply   
I don't see how draft can be the only aspect of the boat that affects the wake. What about the surface area of the hull that is in contact with the water? A narrower boat would sit lower in the water thus increasing draft. A wider boat would sit higher on the water and I believe this would be compounded when the boat was on plane. I also have issue with draft being an indicator, because the draft total includes the prop and rudder, this has little effect on wake size.

Anyone who has ever been to Hawaii will be able to argue salinity and it's affect on buoyancy. At my local lake if I let all the air out of my lungs I will sink straight to the bottom. In Hawaii where the salinity is higher than say California’s ocean you can do the same thing and float, sound as a pound on the surface. How could this not have an effect on a boat if it does this much to a person where the surface area in contact with the water is much smaller. To top it off when a person changes their draft between laying flat across the water or treading vertically their rate of sinking isn't changed much by their draft. Sinking is controlled by surface area in relation to density(or weight).

Another thing, when it comes to actually riding on salt water, since it's more buoyant, riders tend to deem it more slippery. People who often ride finless will put a small fin in for the bite that they are not normally getting. Look at the X-games, normally finless dudes had a little fin in.

Prove me wrong...
Old     (ty540)      Join Date: Nov 2001       12-04-2003, 11:46 AM Reply   
Salt is definitely more "slippery," so to speak. If you switch back and forth frequently it´s not an issue though. Well, maybe when you´re just learning. I personally prefer salt water. It´s like my home, you see. You´ll also probably notice a difference on landings...
Old    joeschmidt            12-04-2003, 11:57 AM Reply   
Salt and fresh are totally different. The wake is noticeabliy smaller in salt. Plus, my boat will plane faster and will not remain at a constant speed. Also, your board will ride higher as well.
Old    norcal_99            12-04-2003, 12:25 PM Reply   
I wonder...... If I launch my X-Star into the Great Salt Lake of Utah, will my wake match the wake of my brothers Bass boat.
Old    stormrider            12-04-2003, 12:28 PM Reply   
I don't know, but, Rene, make sure you let us know when you find out-- if in fact there is any water in the Great Salt Lake. Maybe post a pic.

Stephan, salt water being denser probably explains why casing the wake is a more noticeable experience on salt than on fresh!
Old    flackpb            12-04-2003, 1:15 PM Reply   
As someone who goes between salt and fresh water quite often, I honestly don't see a difference in wake size (I ride right down the road from Kevin in Stone Harbor).

However, there is a definite difference in how the two feel when riding. If I've been riding in saltwater for a while, it takes me a few runs to get used to fresh. It feels like I'm sinking in farther, the wake feels like mush, and I feel like I'm cutting slower.


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