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Old     (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-19-2009, 7:45 AM Reply   
Lots of threads recently have brought up Build Quality, Construction, or Fit and Finish. I personally think these are all very different things. I can't really think of any specific industries that are similar to boat manufacturing. Maybe mountain bikes, since there are many mainstream manufacturers and also boutique manufacturers, however they all use the same components, SRAM, Shimano, Magura, Avid, Chris King, etc.

Specialized, Cannondale, Giant = Mastercraft, CC, Malibu

Trek/Gary FIsher = Supra/Moomba

Turner, Ellsworth, Titus = MB Sports, Sanger


Then again, not everyone understands the MTB frame ananlogy. And it does not make sense considering Turner, Ellsworth, and Titus frames cost 2-3 times more than the big three, since they are hand made. No one pays twice as much for a hand made boat.

I think it would be interesting to see the correlation between cars and boats and what people perceive as quality... Not towing vehicles, but passenger cars, since we are limited to manufacturers for towing.

Do you think quality is BMW, Audi, Benz or do think it is Lexus, Infinity, Acura?

Yes Spelled Perceived wrong in the title, sorry.

BTW, I dive a BMW 530i, Ride Ellsworth and Titus Bikes, and I think MB has the best balance of Build Quality, Construction, and Fit & Finish. I think some manufacturers throw one or two of these qualities because we all know which one sells the most boats a boat shows.


(Message edited by Alan-S on September 19, 2009)
Old     (jumpman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       09-19-2009, 7:50 AM Reply   
When I think of MB I think Maybach. Take a look at the site.

http://www.maybachusa.com/index.php
Old     (amo)      Join Date: Jan 2009       09-19-2009, 7:53 AM Reply   
BMW=CC
Audi=Malibu
Benz=MC

I have my reasons for these correlations, but I assume everyone will have some similar and some different ideas. I am not considering M, S, or AMG series for the respective car brands.

Full disclosure. I drive a BMW M5 and have a SAN 210

(Message edited by amo on September 19, 2009)
Old     (jumpman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       09-19-2009, 8:03 AM Reply   
Full disclosure. I drive a 99 Chevy pick up, not a Maybach.
Old     (amo)      Join Date: Jan 2009       09-19-2009, 8:09 AM Reply   
Jeff, I think the Maybach is sweet looking, but I have always felt you need to have a driver with those cars like all the sheiks in Dubai. I can't picture myself driving one of those things around town.
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       09-19-2009, 8:11 AM Reply   
Quality in a nut shell is something offering what is important to that specific customer...

Someone comes in an wants this or that = and MC can deliever, thats quality.

Another would like totally different things, to them MC is not quality.

To me in a car quality, at my age, means good milage and will not break down, and if it does its going to be cheap... so to me a quality car would be Honda.

If I had deep pockets I would rank like so:
1. Audi -- Beautiful, performance, "sleeper" in quality
2. Acura -- Like a honda, piece of mind of it running forever
3. Cadillac -- The new cadillac stuff looks amazing, performs well -- only issue, my last car was a cadillac and when something breaks $$$$


My top boats:
1. CC -- What I own, its been good to me
2. MC -- X-star, enough said
3. Epic -- they give you what you want, not much else.
Old     (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       09-19-2009, 8:14 AM Reply   
I like your bike analogy Alan.
I ride a Turner, Spot single speed, and own a Sanger.

I think AMOs pretty right on with his tags as well. I'll add mine, I'm a Porsche guy from way back, and owned a few, although none right now. My Porsche buddies that have been in my V-210 call it the "Water 911" ...anyone who has driven both, will understand what that means.

edit to add links for anyone curious:
http://www.spotbikes.com
http://www.turnerbikes.com

(Message edited by rio_sanger on September 19, 2009)

(Message edited by rio_sanger on September 19, 2009)
Old     (brownclown)      Join Date: Jun 2008       09-19-2009, 8:22 AM Reply   
Full disclosure...I'm the coolest guy I know, I have a 12 inch shlong, my wife is a Victoria's Secret panty model, I drive an Aston Martin DBS, I I've in a 10,000 sq.ft. house...
My boat? 17' green and white Mark Twain I/O
Old     (amo)      Join Date: Jan 2009       09-19-2009, 8:27 AM Reply   
Damn brownclown, you've done well for a heavy equipment operator.........when can you get to Scottsdale and dig me my own personal wakeboard lake on the 35 acres I own. I was thinking of putting in my own 6 tower cable park as well....invite only, of course. Let me know. Thanks.
Old     (brownclown)      Join Date: Jun 2008       09-19-2009, 9:01 AM Reply   
I'll clear my schedule!!! And since it's Scottsdale and I have everything else, I only require payment in Ed Hardy apparel and hair gel.
Old     (amo)      Join Date: Jan 2009       09-19-2009, 9:11 AM Reply   
Lmao.....Nice. I'll send the jet for you BC.

BTW, who the hell is Ed Hardy?

Sorry for trashing your once interesting thread Alan.

/hijack promise
Old     (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-19-2009, 10:28 AM Reply   
My post may have come off really wrong. I did not mean to come off as being snooty or bragging. I know everyone has different opinions of quality. Just looking to see if there are any apparent trends.

I am going to venture to guess that there are a lot of MC owners that also drive a Lexus.

I perceive Audi and Malibu to be polar opposites.

I am not even considering reliability, that is just dependent on what engine is thrown into the boat. And we all know PCM is the Best !!!! :-)

(Message edited by Alan-S on September 19, 2009)
Old     (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: NJ       09-19-2009, 11:08 AM Reply   
I am surely in the minority here, but I think most new cars are junk. Wouldn't be caught dead driving one. Most feel chintsy on the inside, controls are all plastic and often feel flimsy.

There is so much nonsense that serves no purpose except to break and be complicated and expensive to fix. New suspensions are junk on many "trucks". Look at all the junk out there from the '80s onward with IFS, tiny axle shafts, small ujoints, slipyokes instead of fixed yokes, ball joints (small ones at that). The heavier trucks are still trucks mechanically, but feel like a soccer mom SUV on the inside. That's tow vehicles though.

As for cars, look at all the silly front wheel drive stuff. If anything has a shot in my mind of being perceived as a quality vehicle is must be rear wheel drive. I personally don't care for the overhead cam stuff and small engines they put in cars these days. Give me a big pushrod engine any day. They are simple and last forever.

For a while I was considering a new Mustang for a daily driver. I wanted a bare bones car with a big block and manual trans, CD player, and no power accessories, no AC, etc. They didn't offer that. So I said how about a 5.4, T56, and bare bones. Nope, won't build it for me. Bare bones 4.6/T56? Nope, have to get all these silly power options, multicolored dashboard, power seats, etc. Heater/radio controls took up a lot of space and felt cheap too. Scratch new car idea, I don't trust fuel injection for a daily driver anyhow.

Beyond that sort of thing, the biggest thing I perceive as quality is reliability and durability, second might be ease of servicing wear items (wheel bearings, ball joints, alt/voltage regulator, clutch, change filters/fluids, etc.). I tend to keep my vehicles for many years and miles. These were especially high considerations when I used to drive

My idea of a quality car is most '50s or'60s American cars. I'm a Ford man myself but Chevy and Mopar made quality cars back then as well.

Where I'm coming from... My first car was a '67 Galaxie with 289/FMX and served me well as a daily driver for several years. I sold it with 302,000 miles on the original engine and transmission, it ran like a top but it was getting rusty from 35 winters on salty roads.

For a while I drove a '63 Falcon, 144 six with 3 on the tree (got that when gas went through the roof). That was a great car. Very minimalistic bare bones car, no syncros in first gear (I learned real quick how to double clutch). That car was dead reliable and got low-mid 20s MPG around town and around 30 on the highway. The plan was to pick up an old paxton supercharger (they made a kit in the '60s for these cars) and replace the 3 speed with a T5. I was gonna shoot for 40 MPG with the overdrive trans. Unfortunately some fool crashed into it and that was the end of that car.

I've had many old '60s Fords that have all served me well and been extremely reliable. I've never been late for work because a '60s carbureted engine wouldn't start. Never wasted time and money tracking down problems or intermittent nonsense on these vehicles either. They just work.

I have been late to work because a fuel injected Olds wouldn't start below freezing unless I poured gas down the throttle body. Chased lots of sensors on that one and never got it quite right. Finally sold that car when the clutch master/slave started leaking past seals and wouldn't fully release. Neither GM nor the aftermarket made replacement clutch hydraulics. Also had trouble with a newer Honda Prelude that just had weak suspension components and brakes.

I stick to my old junk because it just plain works and is reliable and easy to do maintenance. My summer daily driver is a '68 Galaxie with a 460/C6 (hopefully a 4 speed next summer). I used to put 800 miles/week on that car for a couple years before I got a better job closer to home. Many miles and never any trouble.

My winter daily driver/tow pig is an '86 F-250 supercab. Had a flimsy IFS/ball joint axle when I got it. Did a small lift and Dana 60 front axle, swapped the small block/automatic for a 460/5 speed for more towing power. Very durable and reliable truck. Basically the same truck from '80 to '96. They are solid reliable workhorses.

I probably stand alone with my take on quality, but then I drive something with a body style I like that is reliable and easy to service. I don't get new vehicles just because. I'll have my Galaxie 'till I die (was grandma's car since new), and unless I find a really nice '77 or older 4x4 Supercab Ford (my favorite truck) I have no reason to ever get rid of my truck. Everything has been rebuilt, and in another 20 years I'll do it again if necessary.

Boats are another can of worms but I perceive quality in boats as primarily built to last. Minimal wood use, good quality glass work and solid overkill construction. Any wood should be completely sealed overkill style. I see any vehicle, car/truck/boat/bike as a major purchase and generally only buy something I plan to keep for a long time so build quality and longevity are important considerations.
Old     (amo)      Join Date: Jan 2009       09-19-2009, 11:56 AM Reply   
My main man Alan coming through with the PCM post. I can't see where anyone could argue with that. Although, if you take care of anything properly, it should last.

Why don't you like my correlation between Audi and Bu? Just curious on your reasons.
Old     (pdub)      Join Date: Jul 2009       09-19-2009, 12:12 PM Reply   
Alan - master craft owner, MB & Lexus owner as well, very happy with all three manufactures. interesting thread.
Old     (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       09-19-2009, 12:20 PM Reply   
Bu is pretty blingy, Audi is not so much. How about Malibu = Cadillac Escalade?

(Message edited by rio_sanger on September 19, 2009)
Old     (brownclown)      Join Date: Jun 2008       09-19-2009, 1:11 PM Reply   
AMO,

Here's some Ed Re-Tardy for ya:
http://www.edhardyshop.com/Mens-T-Shirts-s/315.htm
Here's some Scottsdale for ya:
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=36344 328

As far as the jet is concerned, no need to send one as I'm already covered in that department as well. Thanks for the offer though!
Old     (dcwillette)      Join Date: Sep 2005       09-19-2009, 1:21 PM Reply   
Cory, I think you may be confusing design with quality in some examples. Just because an item is not designed to perform like you want it to do does not mean its poor quality.

In the 80's, my mother used to think Caddies, Lincolns and Old's were of the highest quality because of the wallowing, cloud like ride. That's what she liked and how she defined quality. My dad on the other thought nothing was as good as a Mercedes and hated domestic luxury cars for the same reason she loved them. He valued how it drove. Their opinion of quality was biased by the qualities inherent from the design of the vehicle and not how well it was manufactured. The IFS vs. solid axle is a good example of this. It depends on if you value ride or strength.

How do you define quality? Reliability, ride & handling, fit & finish, performance, fuel economy, how "green" it is, total cost of ownership, resale value, materials used?

To use a boat analogy, let's assume (I said "assume" people) that a Mastercraft and a Grady White are of the same build quality. If you let design influence your perception of quality, then what you want it for will bias your perception. A fisherman will think an X-star is worthless and a wakeboarder will think the Grady White is worthless.

I tend to define quality as mixture of reliability, fit and finish and materials used. Cost does not factor in nor does performance. That doesn't mean it's not a factor in my purchase decisions, it just means I don't include it in my perception of quality.

IMO the highest quality car brands are (in order) Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura. I say this because of years of demostrated reliability, a great fit and finish and above average materials used.

The best designed are Audi, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Porsche becasue of the way they feel and they way they respond and also how some things are just so well executed.

The best looking are Maserati, Aston Martin, Jaguar, MB and Audi.

Back on topic:

Malibu = BMW or Caddy depending on model, Giant or Cannondale
CC = MB or Porsche, Specialized
MC = BMW
Tige = Audi
Old     (amo)      Join Date: Jan 2009       09-19-2009, 2:47 PM Reply   
BC, hilarious! I see a$$clowns all over scottsdale in those affliction and skin t's, frosted tips and all. Definitely not my scene brother.

Good call Chad. Quality and what people value is defined differently by everybody. I tend to look first at engine performance and how it rides or drives when I look at boats and cars. All of the interiors look nice to me and play a smaller role in my determination of quality. I do notice the dash, in boats especially, as a determining factor in quality.
Old     (brycejb328)      Join Date: Aug 2009       09-19-2009, 3:29 PM Reply   
I really related to the mtb. bike comparison. which it really does seem to relate to boats as well. My first mountain bike was a Kona, flat colored paint, no bling, the bike seemed to have "soul" and wasnt "mainstream". I think a lot of people will sometimes overlook quality just to have something different. I know I personally do. Not to say smaller and non mainstream companies do not have quality.
Old     (absolutezero)      Join Date: Sep 2009       09-19-2009, 4:11 PM Reply   
I ride a Kestrel Evoke, and drive a Passat. What boat should I get to fit a mold?

Not sure they really go together, but maybe they do.

I'd say BMW is like MC. Both try new bold ideas where CC and Benz seem to be more traditional.

Malibu is more like Porsche to me.





I
Old     (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       09-19-2009, 4:42 PM Reply   
I wouldn't spend 40K on a boat and say the quality sucked.

Alan, you, at one time, being a rep/salesperson for MB makes you highly biased.
Old     (sailing216)      Join Date: Oct 2007       09-20-2009, 6:46 AM Reply   
I'll agree with Nick
MC=BMW
CC=Benz more traditional
Bu=Porsche (but Bu has the best interior, porsche not)
Sanger/Cent/MB/Supra= Infinity with great build but that step behind but hey it's also lower price.

Something I can't stand is a very high price boat without snap out carpet. Deal breaker for me to have moldy carpet in a few years. Not to start a war but just my opinion.
Old     (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-20-2009, 7:37 AM Reply   
Joe, that is what I am talking about. I disagree with almost everything that you listed. I respect your opinion, but am baffled at how you come to those conclusions. I wonder what you see that I don't and vice versa.

I agree on the CC=Benz=traditional thing though.
Old     (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-20-2009, 7:44 AM Reply   
John, yes I used to be a dealer and was rep for a while. But I did work on, own, and sell boats from every manufacturer.

I like to look at the build structure, stringer design, engine mounts, underwater gear quality, how the seats and floor are but together, wiring harness design, and hardware. To me these are the things that create how a boat feels on the water. To me Sanger and MB are the most impressive. Centurion is the least impressive in this department.
Old     (fic)      Join Date: May 2008       09-20-2009, 9:04 AM Reply   
I dont want to open up a can of worms, but I have a hard time comparing any american built boat to any import cars, Im pro american always have been , so to me all the brands should be compared to american brands example , ( moomba = saturn) ( Supra = Caddy)
Their is no import that compares to the brute torque of an american v8, thus chevy powered boats.
Old     (882001)      Join Date: Nov 2003       09-20-2009, 9:32 AM Reply   
what about huffy? and team murray?
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       09-20-2009, 11:13 AM Reply   
My $0.02

MC = Cadillac
Malibu = BMW
CC = Benz (my wakeboard boat)

Sanger = Jaguar
Tige = Ford
MB = Chrysler (my ski boat)
Supra = Chevrolet
Centurion = Mazda

I ride a SantaCruz mountain bike, a Giant road bike, drive a Chevy truck, Chevy Tahoe, and Toyota Prius (which I hope to replace with another BMW).

I don't really have anything negative about any new boats these days. Most have nearly identical drivetrains, some have slightly nicer interiors, some handle slightly better than others.

Dom, I find it interesting that you put Supra up with Caddy when you drive a Tige? I think the parallels between Cadillac and Mastercraft are much too strong to ignore. Supra is definitely inline with Chevrolet with quality and marketing from my perspective.

(Message edited by mikeski on September 20, 2009)
Old     (dcwillette)      Join Date: Sep 2005       09-20-2009, 2:18 PM Reply   
Dom, I know your intention is not to open a can of worms but by asserting that you're "pro American" because you buy GM, Ford, or Chrysler automobiles implies that someone that buys a Toyota or Mercedes is not pro-American. I would be careful with that assumption because it's simply not true. I assume that you meant to say that you prefer to buy automobiles from manufactures whose corporate headquarters in based in the U.S.

To make a point... one of most respected public figures in America, retired GEN Colin Powell, was an Infantry Platoon Leader in Vietnam where he was wounded and received a Purple Heart, was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, National Security Advisor and also the Secretary of State. He has a history of restoring and driving lots of Volvos. I'd hardly say he is un-American because he always drove Volvos.

Sorry for the thread hijack
Old     (882001)      Join Date: Nov 2003       09-20-2009, 2:33 PM Reply   
my ford was built in mexico :-(

viva nafta!! :-(
Old     (brett564)      Join Date: Jul 2006       09-20-2009, 2:38 PM Reply   
This is the weirdest thread ever...
Old     (fic)      Join Date: May 2008       09-21-2009, 4:10 AM Reply   
I wasnt implying it was un american to buy non american , I was saying the sports boats, we are using are a creation of american inovation and should be compared to american automobiles.
Also with my example that I gave skiers choice builds Moomba and Supra which compares to the GM line low end hi end.
The inboard ski boat market is a nich and all brands have created some very inovative creations.
When we do the comparisons we should list why we choose a particular brand to match a particular car, handling , performance , plush, creature comfort, fuel economy, durabilty, ease of maintenace, resale value , etc.
Old     (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       09-21-2009, 6:51 AM Reply   
I perceive quality as design ,materials used and workmanship. I can only go by what I have seen with my own boats. 89 Supra 21 years old 750 plus hours. It still looks and performs as it did when new. 2008 Nautique 210 SANTE 115 hours this year. I had a ballast pump lock up the first time out since then no problems. I read about other brands with all kinds of quality control problems and warranty issues or just plain poor design. IMO CC is #1 because of design, high quality materials and attention to details and construction and then back it with the best warranty in the business. No wonder there is such high brand loyalty.
[IMG]http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn127/suprahunter/Clintonlake013.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn127/suprahunter/gooddayonthebeach7-15-08012.jpg[/IMG]
Old     (snowboardcorey)      Join Date: Jan 2004       09-21-2009, 9:10 AM Reply   
I ride a Cannondale R600, drive a Ford F-150 and a 2000 MasterCraft X-Star because I like them. No need to justify, they just fit my needs.
Old     (2006maliblue)      Join Date: Mar 2009       09-21-2009, 12:10 PM Reply   
I agree weird thread and like someone mentioned liking one for a feature over another is a matter of preferance. I personally like the interior of my malibu and one reason I got it was it didn't have snap out carpet. While many see that as a disadvantage. I can honestly say all the major boat manafactureers have boats that would fill my needs however i chose Malibu because I liked it, not because it was better construction, or anything like that. i think all of the major players in the boat game make a quality product or they wouldn't still be in the boat game! Comparing my boat to a car would just be impossible but If i was pressed i'd have to say my boat is similar to a party bus with a stipper pole in the middle! lol

As for what bike its most similar too? Have you seen me? I haven't rode a bicycle in 20 years! lol
Old     (brett564)      Join Date: Jul 2006       09-22-2009, 2:20 AM Reply   
Wow Robert, you made me click your profile link to see you, and my God dude, I forgot all about the short lived Malibu Wakesetter submarine version they made.
Old     (eccpaint)      Join Date: Feb 2002       09-22-2009, 6:40 AM Reply   
I agree with Robert that all the major players have quality products and that we choose our boats for personal preferance. ( I also beleive he has the best guy to girl ratio on this website, Robert's "the man")

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