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Old     (meathead65)      Join Date: Sep 2006       07-02-2007, 11:54 AM Reply   
The NMMA has nothing to do with it....Sales numbers typically are compiled by a company called Statistical Survey, and are generated from DMV registrations. Not to say the NMMA doesn't keep track, but every boat registered gets counted by SSI.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-04-2007, 12:54 PM Reply   
So the most realistic number for boats sold to the end user/consumer is to get an Epic Reunion Organized... all owners of Epics.. meet in Kelowna this weekend at the Pro Tour Event. I will have the local accounting office do the "official count!"

I assume they will the Epic barge floating out there watching the event.. with an Epic or two in tow.

I hear that WakeCraft will have some spanky boats parked outside the venue too. I surfed one the other day... it has a great surf wake too!

See all the Epic owners at the Kelowna Event... wear your "Epic Pride" shirts!

It will be a huge event!
Old     (joshugan)      Join Date: Apr 2005       07-04-2007, 2:05 PM Reply   
Kyle, just give it up.

You're like one of those wierdos in highschool who finds a cause and then that's all they can talk about. "Save the seals!" "Stop global warming!" "Don't buy an Epic, they won't publish their manufacturing numbers!"

You're as impartial and interested in the truth as Michael Moore.

Why do you keep asking about boats sold when it's perfectly obvious that whatever the number is it wouldn't be good for publicity?

I have no connection to Epic. Sure I want them to succeed but I want every business to succeed. I like certain aspects of the Epic but I doubt I'll ever own one.

You are so hypercritical of Epic that you look like a bitter buffoon.

Case in point: (one of how ever many posts you've made so far)

"Spend money to get the new model out. Spend money to perfect the manufacturing process. Spend money to streamline the manufacturing process and lower costs."

Gee, it seems to me that getting boats into the hands of pros who use them daily would help work out kinks which could then be used to get the new model out, perfect the manufacturing process, and streamline the manufacturing process and lower costs.
Old     (wlxstar)      Join Date: Dec 2006       07-04-2007, 4:37 PM Reply   
What is wrong with wanting to know the condition and future of a company from which you may spend 50K plus? To be more specific, What assurance does the customer have that if the new boat they purchased has underlying long term problems, The company will be around to help them repair or replace the product?

As of yet, there are no long term owners of Epic boats. There is no resale market. The customer is making a gamble by buying a boat that may last 30 years, or it may last 4 years.
Throw in the fact that the creator of this product is working on 2 start ups in huge existing markets, along with various other "secret projects". Less than staggering sales on an unproven product- one which is still "working out the kinks"- coupled with other time-demanding and risky ventures leads me as a potential customer to wonder what long term support I will have on my purchase.

What assurances does a customer have that should a catastrophic engineering problem strike these boats that they would be able to recoup their money?

On a board where the mantra is DEMO DEMO DEMO on every product you purchase, on a board where people meet to discuss the pros and cons for every model boat in order to make an informed decision before a purchase, It seems a perfectly valid question to ask how many customers have taken delivery on a new boat model.
With MC, CC, SC, and malibu, plenty of owners are willing to chime with their opinion- something that does not happen with Epic.
A smart consumer will find out the longevity and customer support they should expect with such a large purchase. Without a good cross section of consumers, they are forced to form an opinion by weighing break-down tales vs. a small sample of known and not very vocal customers. Asking about total numbers of boats in customer posession is something a smart consumer should do in order to form a ballpark mechanical failure estimate. Anyone who does not is just a bad comparison shopper.

Epic looks to have a great wake, but beyond that it is pure speculation- speculation that is intentionally not being addressed.
Old     (wakecda)      Join Date: Jun 2007       07-04-2007, 5:53 PM Reply   
Mike, are you so naive to think that there has been no underlying long term problems with products produced by very notable companies. Companies usually do not make that public knowledge. Even in the boat world, do you think it really cost MC, CC, and Malibu $20,000 more dollars to product a wakeboard boat. People are paying for the name. If you have been in a new Epic it speaks for its self, it out performs all of them and it only $65000. Also it comes with a lifetime transferable warranty on the hull. Every thing else in the boat like: VOLVO, HURTH, SAMSON, FARIA, PREFECT PASS, are all at the top of there respective fields. So I guess its really easy to seat there and criticize some ones work when you have no actual knowledge of the product. Iam sure if you run a report on at the mechanical and engineering problems of CC, MC, and malibu it would be a long list. The Speculation is that Epic is setting a new standard for wakeboats period. It is going to take everyone else 2-3 year to product a boat with the same capabilities of the Epic.
Old     (tyboarder03)      Join Date: Nov 2003       07-04-2007, 6:22 PM Reply   
Nice looking boat Joe!!!!
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       07-04-2007, 8:46 PM Reply   
WEll I have been waiting and waiting to chime in here, as this post has alot of stuff going on here.

Been in an Epic and behind one, but it was all jacked up at a demo here. The vector steer problem was killing the wake. All wash on one side so can't give a true comment on the wake or handling.

So here goes my .02 on the whole Epic thing. These boats were hyped to every end especially on this board. Everwhere you looked you saw about this new boat MFG and all these people interested in their product. Myself included. After being in one and being behind one for sure I felt it was way too hyped, but still yet another alternative in the wakeboat market isn't a bad thing. Solid alternative product for sure
Thought the leg room was lacking for sure. Seats were very close to the floor and didn't have nearly as deep as a cockpit of what one would think a 23ft'r should have. Understand why beacause all that ballast is under the floor, but for me in a 23ft boat you would probably want that deepness. Boat had some getup though with the weight. Can't comment on the way ot drove as the vector was jacked up.

All in all after hearing all the hype about the boat I have yet to hear some customer reviews beside those coming from the people promoting their product. As to the whole how many have you sold. I can see both sides. Not a proper place, but how do you expect people to go in on a product they can't find any info about unless it's coming from the "reps"? Don't think that is great either. What are they gonna tell you yea we are having huge problems, or not selling boats. (NOT SAYING THAT IS CASE)

AS to Joes comments about how Epic speaks for itself....Dude there is 0 reputation there. Nothing but comments about prototype boats and their problems flying around rather than actual customer reviews. Hate to break it to you but you can't build a reputation in a year. rep·u·ta·tion
Pronunciation: "re-py&-'tA-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English reputacion, from Anglo-French, from Latin reputation-, reputatio consideration, from reputare
1 a : overall quality or character as seen or judged by people in general b : recognition by other people of some characteristic or ability <has>
2 : a place in public esteem or regard : good name <trying>
- rep·u·ta·tion·al /-shn&l, -sh&-n&l/ adjective


Every company has some problems, but can tell you the big 3 are always gonna b the big 3 for a reason til time goes on. They are battle ground proven time and time again. I think there are a couple campanies pushing into that top realm very fast with the products they have been producing and THEIR reputations over the past 5-8yrs.
Again Joe "A new Epic out performs all of them".. I LOVE STATEMENTS LIKE THAT trust me I believe you! Seriously I do. Can I buy one now


Mike 100% agree with your post....Very well put.
And in closing I can honestly say after being behind one its a good alternative, but not near worth all the hype and def not even close to being a top boat YET
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-04-2007, 8:51 PM Reply   
I appreciate everyone's concerns but know these feelings will subside as the years pass. There are only a few owners out there that have had an Epic for more than a couple of seasons now but Anthony(the pirate Epic) is one of them. Of course he loves his boat but I understand that he is one of maybe three multiple season Epic owners that have chimed in on this board. Of course that doesn't mean they are the only people out there with ownership experience, they just don't frequent this board. We have been working hard for the past four years now to refine our product and put the best boats we can into boarders hands. Most know the story of how I started this company(http://www.wakeworld.com/getarticle.asp?articleid=296 - written in 2005) and the vision I have for the future of wake boat design. As with any product the proof is in the pudding... I am not going to state production numbers on the board because it will do nothing to further interest in our boats or increase peoples confidence in our 23v. I will tell you that there will be press releases when we reach production milestones like 500/1,000/10,000 ect. There will always be questions about any brand you consider. I know there is more to consider with Epic because we are a younger company then some of our competitors but we hope that the performance an price of our products will out shine the other offerings out there. We will continue to improve our product (which I already feel is far more technologically advanced than any other boat on the market) and increase our manufacturing capacity. As more of our boats reach the public the easier it will be for people to attest to the reliability of our brand. So when there is an Epic event in your area head out and test us out for yourself.
Old     (tyboarder03)      Join Date: Nov 2003       07-04-2007, 8:53 PM Reply   
I would bet my bottom dollar that the problems they are having thus far is why there aren't many boats out(to the public) YET.
I would also say once the kinks are worked out if all goes as planned it will dominate all 23 footers in the wake market. It's a lower price tag, most ballast, bigger powerplant, everything a boarder with a need for a boat like that would ever need. I wouldn't buy one though because I could load our Malibu with 4k and prolly have as nice a wake if not nicer, but I have no need for 4k in weight as I don't think 90 percent of the market does either.
Old     (malibuboarder75)      Join Date: Jan 2004       07-04-2007, 9:10 PM Reply   
Swatguy, the seats were really close to the floor because there is 4000lbs/460 gallons/65 cubic feet of water underneath it. That is a lot of water to hide and still have all available storage.
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-04-2007, 9:38 PM Reply   
It is always nice to have the option to easily fill the ballast ALL the way up for pro level wakes or wakesurf. If you only have 1250lbs of ballast and want more then you have to break out the sacs and pumps...there goes at least 30mins of ride time trying to weigh her down... I dealt with it in my other boats and NEVER wanted to see it happen again in an Epic. It does limit the foot room but there is still plenty of storage(you can fit 8 boards with bindings in the rear storage - 4 more under the passenger side glove box and then there is all the under seat storage plus the center ice chest which is in the floor and easy to get to the 3 cubic feet of food/drink storage). Again, once we come to your area check out the feel of the interior and how it feels to you knowing there is 4k of ballast hidden nicely out of sight and ready for your "flip of a switch" use :-)
Old     (wakecda)      Join Date: Jun 2007       07-04-2007, 10:54 PM Reply   
SWATGUY, nobody can build a rep in a year, i understand that. The production boat I have now is 100% better then the prototype that I was behind last year. The wake is bigger and over all finish was much better. I have put on 40 hrs in the last two weeks and everything has worked great. Also, what color of boat are you looking for? Mine is all white and I can make you a good deal on it in a month because I will be getting the 08 model soon.

One other thing just to put out there. Their is no question that people can add fat sacks to any boat to get a bigger wake. What do you think thoughts boats are rated at for weight? What do most come with for ballast? 1200 lbs plus seating for 14, maybe. Now you add 1000 to 1500 lbs more in ballast and it take all you storage space plus some of you seating. Now is you boat over weight. What do you think the hulls are designed to handle before performance starts to diminish. Most already weigh 1200-1500 more then the Epic because of all the resin they use for the hulls, and thats with a small block power plant. I would bet that my 8.1L is getting the same or better fuel consumption that any other 23ft. It only takes 10 minutes to go from 4000 lbs of ballast, total weight 7000lbs, to 3000lbs to cruise a crossed the lake.

Like others said who needs 4000 lbs of ballast for wakeboarding, I agree, not many. With the hull design of the Epic you don't need to run heavy. Even if you ran at the same weight of the a MC, CC, and Malibu you would be putting out the same or maybe little bigger wake with little effort. The top 3 have there place and have earned it, but I would have to say that Epic has caught their attention.
Old     (tyboarder03)      Join Date: Nov 2003       07-04-2007, 10:59 PM Reply   
Well said both Chris and Joe. I think more boat companies is nothing but good for our sport, which is why I've never understood the bashing. Things take time... give it time. I do think the 4000 lbs is awesome, but do you guys add any extra weight on top of the stock to surf, or is there enough weight on either side to make an large surf wake without additional. Definitely a wakeboarders dream boat, just as Chris has intended it to be from day 1. I can't wait to see the future for Epic.
Old     (tyboarder03)      Join Date: Nov 2003       07-04-2007, 11:02 PM Reply   
Bumped into this as well...
http://www.wakeview.com/
Joe or Chris? Whats the news on this little toy?
Old     (wakecda)      Join Date: Jun 2007       07-04-2007, 11:11 PM Reply   
I don't have one get but I am looking to get one soon for lessons and something to give parents after a day on the lake.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-04-2007, 11:16 PM Reply   
Josh B... you are silly.. Don't get your panties in a knot.. I spend most of my time joking around. Do you think what I say really has any bearing on anyone elses thoughts or opinions? Anyone who reads my comments... thinks I am an a$$... I am just screwing around...

Also.. read the post... Did I ask how many they have built? I can take a pretty good guess... I know people who work for Katana Industries... the ones contracted to build the Epic. Also.. all the boats go on a trailer to get shipped south... drives right by my house... So I have a pretty good idea how many have been built. Do I share these numbers? No... its not for me to say...

Chris is open and honest with his comments regarding his Epic boat.. he is entitled to share what he wants about his boats and his company... its not for me or anyone else to say...

We can ask as many questions as he wants... but Chris will answer what he wants to answer in his professional manner... as he should.

As for other issues I have commented on the boat.. and some of the questions I have in regards to the contruction.. are facts from people I know who own an Epic.

I think Joe is getting a little carried away with some of his comments... he seems to sometimes get a little defensive... If you notice Chris remains professional at all times... Joe.. just be cautious with some of your claims and comments...

For those who are inquiring about how many boats have been built... how the company is doing... will they be around... etc... and then Joe comes up with a comment about a "lifetime hull warranty" I think that just adds fuel to the fire... What good is a lifetime warranty if a company isn't around?

We have already seen on other discussions... that even established companies have grey areas on lifetime hull warranties...

For those that understand economics... and how the CDN/US dollar exchange rates affect Canadian Manufacturers... etc etc etc...

Epic in my opinion has run into some obstacles that you would hope you shouldnt have to contend with as a young company.. but they are still building and pushing out boats... but it was great timing to come to Canada to start the new Epic project... then we saw... rising oil prices... weakening US dollar... high metal prices... etc etc etc...

I think with Epic working with a smaller manufacturing plant.. allowed Chris and other designers to have a more hands on approach to refining the Epic boat... where as if they had hired a large US manufacturer... he may not have had the chance to play with different motors, dual rudders, minor changes to hull and deck etc etc etc...

If everything could be perfect the first time around... I would imagine having the boat built in California would be great.. save a lot of money in transportation, parts/supplies etc... but would we have the Epic you see today... I doubt it....

If you had a chance to be in the original black/fade prototype... and the latest production model... they are night and day difference.... is it perfect... not yet... but things take time...

WakeCraft is new too and they are refining and improving things as they go along.. price tags are the same... smaller boat... exceptional fit and finish... I assume all new boat manufacturers have various issues to work through...

Bottom line is... there are new boats to hit the market... offers competition... and its good for the market place and gives the consumers more choices.
Old     (tyboarder03)      Join Date: Nov 2003       07-04-2007, 11:28 PM Reply   
Wakecraft is an entirely different bag of worms... they're a new company and they look alright IMO, but they have nothing groundbreaking or really unique about their construction, motor, hull shape, ballast, etc... Epic is trying to pave new roads, and that's why it is harder(it seems) for them to penetrate the market.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-05-2007, 12:34 AM Reply   
Tyler.. I would disagree a bit...

Epic has unique hull design... more ballast... and dual rudder steering.. what else is groundbreaking? Resin infusion is not rocket science, many of the manufacturers use resin infusion.. they just havent incorporated it in their hull construction.. but using it for parts and components.


WakeCraft - has unique hull design (take a look... it is different than any other boat)... lots of bling... and without a doubt the easiest v-drive serviceability.

All new boat manufacturers have something unique to bring to the market...

What would happen if Mastercraft created a X-45 with 3500-4000lbs of below floor ballast... and triple rudders?

If you try and build something new... and compete in the market... you need to have something unique.. and prove why it is better than others... that takes time.

It is true.. Epic and WakeCraft are completely different... size.. etc etc etc.. But they are both very unique.

Looking back.. I wonder if Epic or a WakeCraft came out the year before the "pickleforks" were introduced... with a picklefork design... would it have caught on? I wonder.. it would be interesting... Maybe all new boats in the future will have more than one rudder...

Or will we see the Volvo IPS system in tournament boats of the future...

The future will be very interesting to see what other innovations boat builders will come out with.
Old     (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       07-05-2007, 7:11 AM Reply   
"So A-dab, please don't say that I have ever abused the boards for promotion because I have restrained myself when we have news that I want to share with the public to get feedback but haven't because I don't want to abuse the board or peoples' time with something they didn't ask for."

"I am not going to state production numbers on the board because it will do nothing to further interest in our boats or increase peoples confidence in our 23v."

Further interest? Like promotion? Don't shoot your other foot man.
Old     (hemihauler)      Join Date: Jan 2006       07-05-2007, 8:16 AM Reply   
Saw my first epic on Bullards yesterday. Very sweet looking boat. The all white hull was savage.
Old     (fatsac)      Join Date: Jun 2004       07-05-2007, 8:34 AM Reply   
Me too, Rob! It's not for everyone but all in all, I think it's a good looking boat.
Damn Kyle... you really have a shiv up ur azz over the Epic. It honestly makes me wonder why you would be so committed to driving this post on and on.
Either way, Chris made a good point. Not all wakeboarders or boat purchasers visit this site.
Old     (deltaboy)      Join Date: Jan 2007       07-05-2007, 8:55 AM Reply   
Tyler what are you talking about? Do you have any idea? I don’t think they have had any issue with "penetrating" the market. Neither has Epic. Get your facts straight. Wakecraft isn’t trying to be the next Malibu or CC etc. You are right though, it is a totally different bag. They are more interested in making the boat yours and to date not one single Wakecraft has been the same. That’s because its a custom boat.

This is really foolish guys. The only reasons anyone would need to worry or be interested in boat build # crap would be if you were an investor. When you bought your bu's, Cali, CC, SC, Brendel or any other boat did you ask for numbers? Let Epic be and do what they believe is right for their company rather than giving them unsolicited advise about dumping their money in to this or that. Do it your self first and then see how it works out. Their hulls along with most others aren’t going to blow up or anything and if they did you are beating the hell out of the boat. Kill this thread or at least try and change the attitudes here.
Old     (tyboarder03)      Join Date: Nov 2003       07-05-2007, 9:04 AM Reply   
Kevin- I wasn't trying to bash Wakecraft.. So don't get all riled up. Wakecraft easily entered the market due to their rims, custom color schemes, and MAYBE their easy access to the engine(wouldn't be a huge selling point for me, warranties make it so I don't have to squeeze in there). Every aspect of the Epic is unique from production to the transom to the ballast to the entire hull shape. What's unique about wakecrafts hull? Besides that it looks a little different(nothing drastic). Epics hull is groundbreaking for the wake industry, resin infusion is groundbreaking in the wake industry, transom audio is groundbreaking in the wake industry, and so on. Kevin once again I think wakecrafts are very unique, just not anywhere comparable to the Epic in terms of crazy new features.
Old     (lizrd)      Join Date: Jul 2002       07-05-2007, 9:24 AM Reply   
Chris Anthony writes: "I will tell you that there will be press releases when we reach production milestones like 500/1,000/10,000 ect."

So from that statement I think it is safe to say that production numbers are under 500 at this time.
Old     (deltaboy)      Join Date: Jan 2007       07-05-2007, 9:25 AM Reply   
Didn’t take it as bashing at all Tyler. And I'll say it again get your facts, the hull is totally different. Next time you see a Wakecraft you should check it out. Until Epic has a 21 foot boat and is trying to give three different types of wake in one hull or Wakecraft develops a boat with two or three tons of ballast and geared only to wakeboarding and surfing you cant compare. Again I didn’t take it as bashing Tyler and I don’t think I’m riled up. Its just ridiculous to see what some people post regarding how a company should be driven and that they have no financial interest or were even invited to input about, its instigating shizat. Cool Tyler?
Old     (tyboarder03)      Join Date: Nov 2003       07-05-2007, 9:28 AM Reply   
Ummmm sure...I'm allowed to post opinions, as has everyone else on this thread maybe we should start a new wakecraft thread. I also understand their hull is a new design but so are dozens of others. Epics is miles apart in similarities. IMO
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-05-2007, 9:58 AM Reply   
"Every aspect of the Epic is unique from production to the transom to the ballast to the entire hull shape. What's unique about wakecrafts hull? Besides that it looks a little different(nothing drastic). Epics hull is groundbreaking for the wake industry, resin infusion is groundbreaking in the wake industry, transom audio is groundbreaking in the wake industry, and so on. Kevin once again I think wakecrafts are very unique, just not anywhere comparable to the Epic in terms of crazy new features."

Yo Tyler... Just some things to consider...

You may not service your own boat.. but the ease of serviceability will help you enjoy more time on the water in the event there is a warranty issue with any type of boat. My boat is impossible to work on, so it is hard enough to get anyone excited to work on my boat if need be. I still don't know who I will get to change my impellor... they just cringe when they see where it is located. Bot Epic and WakeCraft addressed some of those concerns by making their boats more easily serviceable. To maximize time spent on the water!

As for unique hull shapes... I think at the end of the day... it is where the hull meets the water that is important... both Epic and WakeCraft have unique running surfaces... each achieve some similarities and some differences.

Resin infusion... this process has been around for quite sometimes... most companies use it to make components... We have a lot of RV manufacturers in our area and they use it to make various items in their units. It is quicker and more cost efficient... as for day to day abuse... only time will tell whether it is the best for the entire hull. I think for light weight hybrid racing sail boats... they will take less pounding type of abuse. As for repairing a damaged foam core hull vs hand laid hull? I think the hand laid will hold up better from an impact stand point... but resin infusion offers more light weight for trailering... and less harmful manufacturing gasses into the environment.

The environment part kind of makes me chuckle... because if we are totally concerned about the environment.. we wouldn't put 4000lbs of ballast in our boat with an 8.1 litre... hell... we would be eating granola and paddling our kayaks... bitching at the wakeboard boats!!!

Transom audio is new from a manufacturers point of view.. but I had a few buddies install Pioneer Marine speakers in their transom... Epic has designed them right into their boat... Where as WakeCraft has moulded them right into their tower.

Epic uses a standard Samson tower.. same thing you see on Tiges and Sangers... WakeCraft uses their own design... which in my opinion is not my favourite to look at.. but was a treat to drive. But I like how the Samson collapses. The WakeCraft tower has interior lighting... and spot lights and speakers and nav lights and swivel racks integrated right into an easily collapsable tower... which again.. looks odd at first glance.

So in my opinion... they each have some crazy new ideas to bring to the market place... I wonder when Epic will have the 21 footer.. and WakeCraft will have a 23 footer... let the competition begin.. hahah...

They are both great boats... and you are correct... They are nothing alike... completely different.

Oh yeah... FatSac... I do my best to keep all of the discussions going!!!

I frequent many discussions boards on the internet.. my goal is to set a world record!!! Thanks for posting... you help me out... one post at a time!
Old     (bullit)      Join Date: Feb 2007       07-05-2007, 10:55 AM Reply   
Good points Kyle and good luck on that WORLD RECORD! See ya at Wakefest! I think we are bringing 3 boats up.
Old     (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       07-05-2007, 11:49 AM Reply   
Kevin get your glasses fixed before you start attacking others. Tyler actually said "Epic is trying to pave new roads, and that's why it is harder(it seems) for them to penetrate the market." EPIC!!

This is a message board where we are free to discuss what we want. If you don't like it, don't click on it. Kill this thread? Thats whats ridiculous my man, your attitude. And if I want to inquiry about how many boats have been made, I will. It happened to be a question others had as well. They didn't answer it directly, but I now have a better idea about the company now thanks to other posters on the board who actually contributed and didn't just try and control things. It was a question I thought could easily be answered, approx. X boats, and now find the thread humorous regarding some contradicting statements on promotion.
"Its just ridiculous to see what some people post regarding how a company should be driven and that they have no financial interest or were even invited to input about, its instigating shizat"
$$$$$$$$$$$ I don't have it laying around, so it is my financial interest regarding a boat, and I might ask a few questions when contemplating spending it(investing sort of) with a boat company.
And again, free board, no invitations needed.
Old     (deltaboy)      Join Date: Jan 2007       07-05-2007, 12:44 PM Reply   
Good luck up there bullit. Have fun. A-dub my point or question is what use is it if you know or not? Just asking too? Not trying to start WW3, and wasnt attacking anyone by asking to get the facts. O ya by the way I wear contacts But I do agree Epic seems to be paving new trails or attempting too.
Old     (pwningjr)      Join Date: Apr 2007       07-05-2007, 2:33 PM Reply   
What we need is an orginized forum for everyone to scream out their ideas all at once. Oh, nevermind, we already do. lol, sorry but just couldn't pass that opportunity up. I have never seen an EPIC but just had to chime in. If you don't want to hear my opinion, just simply skip over this. Controverseys are always fun on here. As for the EPIC (is it supposed to be in all caps?) of course its going to have bugs. Even the top 3 still have some kinks to work out. A-dub has a very valid question, and Chris has a very valid reason not to answer it. All of those saying that it isn't right for A-dub to ask that question, do you even know how much $65k is? Where I live people that can afford that even with a loan are really quite rich. And what happens if the company isn't around in 10 years when you need service and have to pay for it because the warranty died along with the company? Another huge bill. I'm sorry if I ticked anybody off, just giving my opinion(which this site allows me to do.).
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-05-2007, 3:04 PM Reply   
I hate to see this devolve into a WakeCraft/Epic comparison discussion but everyone is entitled to their opinions about each brand and what each of us bring to the market. From my perspective(a very biased but honest one) our boats have a lot to make them stand out in a crowd. All of our features have been developed as a solution to problems that I(and other riders kind enough to help me with feedback) had when I owned and rebuilt other ski/wake boats.

- The Hull design - after riding my first tournament behind a WakeSetter(with 3,000lbs of sacs on the floor) I was amazed at how BIG a wake could be with a different boat in front of me. At the time I was boarding behind a friends I/O and the wake was small and spread quickly. The WakeSetter rode long and it was WAY bigger. That set me on a quest to develop a better wake through hull design. First I tried hull addons to existing ski hulls(this didn't work so good and I couldn't find a universal device I could adapt to all boats in need). Then I found that fluid dynamics programs had come a long way since I was designing race kayaks and whitewater courses in college. So I began an analysis on what shape would produce the "BEST" wake ever... After six months locked in my room on the computer I had what I thought would do the trick and started to build the shape out of foam in my driveway. And five years later here we are with a hull that does everything I thought it would and more. The DROP Zone(Dynamic Reduction of Pressure Zone) does exactly what it is designed to do. It sinks the boat down by speeding up water in certain areas and thus throws a BIGGER and Firmer wake.

- Ballast - I hate filling fat sacs! It always takes forever and is never easy to do and then there is the maintenance and storage of everything you need to heavily sac out a boat. I never wanted one of my boats to need extra sacs on the floor to achieve an amazing wake. With 4,000lbs...mission accomplished...

- Vector Steering - In general weighing down your boat and steering just don't mix. I hated going out and finally getting the wake I wanted out of a boat weight wise only to fear for my life every time we pulled a dog bone too close to shore. Our dual rudders have fixed that problem. Yes we did have problems with some of our first versions of this system but I can tell you that it is one of the very first things people comment on after driving the boat. Fully slammed with ballast the 23v still turns and your heart doesn't skip a beat when you have to take action on the wheel to avoid something.

- Infusion - This wasn't something that was really on my radar screen when I first started dreaming of the 23v but after figuring out what design I wanted to use the next step was how to build this thing in volume. Hand laid boats work just great but during my research I found another method that was half the weight and ten times the strength of traditional methods. It was very compelling to me to use the latest in technology with my latest in wake technology boats. The strength of this composite method is unmatched in the inboard world and is only being used by very few and very limited production race and sail boats(which all come at with a hefty price tag). This method is not to be confused with vacuum bagging, RTM, SCRIM, light RTM. Resin infusion is its own beast with its own complexities and very distinct strength and durability properties. In general, infused glass is 10 times stronger and half the weight of lay-ups use in the marine world today. And each square foot of infused material(with its foam core construction) floats about 8lbs. So instead of having to pump our floors with foam for floatation we have that safety factor build right into our initial production process. This allows for more ballast and a safer boat all around with the strength for the worst of impacts and the durability to keep up with the stresses produced by a 4,000lbs ballast system.

- Transom Audio - I didn't like not being able to talk in the boat when we were pumping the jams to the rider. Sometimes you just want to chill and watch riding but usually every rider wants all the sound you can feed them. The transom audio just seemed like the obvious solution to this issue and it has proven its worth(to me at least) over and over again.

- Tower - I can't take much credit for the tower design. The guys at Samson were building a killer tower that just seemed to fit the look and style of our boat. It is available to Tige and other dealers but it is not standard on any other boat(because it is pricey) but I feel it is worth the $$$ because it is sturdy, easy to fold down, comes with the swivel racks and top nav light, and it looks great on the 23v :-)

- Maintainability - I want to use the boat, yank the boat out of the water, go to sleep, get up the next day and use it again... I've worked hard to make the boat easy to clean/do routine maintenance on so you can keep it on the water and out on the water looking and working great. The foam floor and drains make the boat easy to spray out, the huge engine compartment makes everything easy to get to for maintenance, there is a remote water flush on the transom and a remote oil drain that you just poke out the water drain hole for easy oil changes. And all the cables(steering and control) are kept high and dry so they will last many times longer than cables strewn across the bilge in a constant wet condition.

- Then the extras - I have installed Perfect Pass on older boats and heaters and stereo addons...They are all a pain to addon...I wanted the 23v to come with everything I wanted on a wake boat so every 23v comes with a 3 vent heater with 2 pull-outs, an anchor on the bow, an adjustable wake shape plate, Perfect Pass Wakeboard Pro, a fatty stereo with two wired remotes an I-pod adapter and a sub(wait till you see the 2008 package!!!), and then there is enough cup holder to choke a horse(18 in the 2008 models).

So you see this is the boat that I wanted to build. I set out with some specific requirements and people around me influenced my designs quite a bit. Riders gave me advice on what they wanted and I found that I also wanted most of the additions they suggested. And now we have the boat some have seen today. It is not a boat for EVERYONE but I LOVE IT and I think a lot of other people will feel the same way. This is just the first version. Subsequent models may meet more peoples expectations of what they are looking for in a wake boat. Until then those that are interested should try to find an Epic around their stomping grounds sometime and have a look/drive/ride to see what we are all about and what crazy things have come out of my head - onto my driveway - and then into the factory to be built for riders the world round. I hope you will find you like my vision of what a wake boat should be :-) that is all I can hope for...
Old     (three6ty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       07-05-2007, 3:42 PM Reply   
Chris,
Stay Stong!!!!

You Built your dream boat and dont let anyone take that thrill away from you.

I do see the concerns of the people who may be in the market for a new boat but you have come this far and I am confident you will be able to work through the issues and produce the boat I know you want everyone to enjoy.

It wont be for everyone but no company out there has 1 boat for everyone. Get your customers and treat them like GOLD and your " reputation" will be created automatically.

Dont fall in the funk of getting into arguements with some of these people on here who just out to complain and see you fail.
Live your dream!!!
Old     (fullspeed)      Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Santa Cruz County CA       07-05-2007, 4:52 PM Reply   
Hey good job Chris and well written. I looked at the Epic Boat at the Sac. boat show and was impressed with some of the creative ideas that went into your boat. I know that Epic Boats will only grow in time.

These forums can be good information and bad. I always find it funny when people express their opinions openly, but have not tried or even seen some products. Bashing things just to bash them.

Keep up your drive and focus. Good luck.
Old     (tyboarder03)      Join Date: Nov 2003       07-05-2007, 5:05 PM Reply   
Kyle/Kevin-
I understand Wakecraft has a nice product I REALLY DO. But they have nothing groundbreaking...

Their tower-"The WakeCraft tower has interior lighting... and spot lights and speakers and nav lights and swivel racks integrated right into an easily collapsable tower... which again.. looks odd at first glance." Ummmmm Malibu had the CFT Blade way before Wakecraft was around so not new.

Servicability- One of wakecrafts strong points, but not a concern to me as our dealer is amazing with reapairs.

Resin Infusion- First wakeboats to use resin infusion...period. Thats groundbreaking in THIS industry.

Transom Audio- Congrats your friends tried and successfully installed their own. Epic is the first wakeboat company to do this.

Tower Design-I think the Epic is one of the only boats that can pull this tower off. Wakecrafts looks hideous...IMO(which I'm entitled to, but don't think I'm the only one)
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-06-2007, 12:00 AM Reply   
I hear ya Tyler... I do have some issues with Resin Infusion... There are pros and cons to it. All I can say.. is in areas where you get freezing temperatures... pray that there is no moisture in the core... other than that... it is more environmentally friendly... and lighter... and can make manufacturing more efficient... but I still don't think it is ground breaking. There have been some problems with some of new resin infused hulls... gel coat separation... blistering... delamination... but we have seen on other threads... all boats have gel coat and hull issues every once in a while...

You feel that they have groundbreaking innovative ideas...

I personally think all of the boat manufacturers have come out with groundbreaking ideas...

MC - picklefork design.
Tige - TAPS - and unique seating in a 22 ft direct drive.
Svfara - Unique interiors
Malibu - Wedge
Calabria - Pure Vert Ballast
the list goes on... this is what makes the industry so exciting... everyone is coming out with new ideas... because Epic... and other new builders are pushing the bog boys to be innovative too...

Smart Tab... in both Supras... and now Malibus....

Its great!!!!!
Old     (tyboarder03)      Join Date: Nov 2003       07-06-2007, 2:50 AM Reply   
I can see you now have run out of ideas to battle back with which is why you refer to TAPS...a trim tab that dozens of companies have(tige just claims it to do more) all it does is shape the wake.

MC Pickle fork- Fair enough... first to do it in the wakeboat category otherwise praise Sanger.

Tige-Ummmm unique seating for a D-Drive huh??????? What oher company has a better layout for a DD????? Oh yeah Malibu with the XTI been around for years and years. Tige claims many things as their own.

Svfara-Ummmmm no comment. You mean the dark burning grey interior that is a cow pattern hahahahahah how is that groundbreaking????

Malibu Wedge- Agreed new and innovative. Now theres a switchblade and other shizz trying to play off the wedge so good call.

Calabria- Very fast ballast system agreed... very innovative and somewhat of the first to do what could be considered groundbreaking i suppose.

Sooooooooo my question is why didn't you put wakecraft on that list since that is what we're currently discussing in general????? IS it because they have nothing groundbreaking?????? I think so!!!!
Old     (committed)      Join Date: Jul 2005       07-06-2007, 8:48 AM Reply   
Chris, I applaud your continued professionalism, and laugh at a few who think their opinions need to be addressed. Taking the highroad is always the best course, and you have always have. That speaks volumes about your company and the direction it seeks. I don't care one effin bit, how many units you have made today, because the numbers change daily, and your not required to share company stats with any tom-dick-or harry. That's just good business savy, and the few who demanded this, think they're talkin to their gardners or something. "Tell, me how many lawns are you cutting, NOW!"
I was lucky to hook up with Joe and John at the channel in Elsi for the comp, and I spent time in the rig. The fit and finish were par for the class. The wake was without debate. Just having guys like Joe and John in your program is a big bonus. John over at MB sports does tons for this lifestyle and Joe, is a pillar in the community. These guys aren't getting behind anything close to failures. Epic may not be the biggest boy in the pool, but I don't think they want to be either. This pig (respectful) ain't for everyone, but for US riders who like a boat that is a beast, backed by major nuts, is simple to maintain-NOT blinged to death with chrome pods, billet ashtrays, and other useless ploys, we GET IT. 65K-70K is nice tag too, when your into this class of boats. You want it cheaper, then go buy a Moomba and wear the smile of savings. Other than that, I wish Epic and all those guys the best of luck in the future. Some of us, are waiting for the kinks to unkinked, and then we will be stepping the hell up. Luckily, my dealership is only minutes away.
Old     (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       07-06-2007, 9:58 AM Reply   
Kyle I really don't think you understand some of their building techniques... resin infusion is a state of the art process, it is one that is difficult to get right. I want to point out that you keep saying that infusion is why a hull will delam when water enters the Core... WRONG, WRONG WRONG WRONG... any cored hull that sees water enter the core can and most likely will experience rotting of the core. Now, if water enters the core and freezes, then yes you can see delamination... So you are attacking resin infusion as a possibly inferior process... wrong... so maybe you didn't understand and you're actually attacking cored hulls as "not as good as the rest". However... you seem to not get the fact that a cored hull is probably up to 10x stronger, while being lighter than a straight fiberglass skinned hull (who needs strength more than a big boat loaded with weight driving double ups all day?)... Now to address water seapage into the core from the ballast tanks, Im sure that Chris would not allow this to happen as he knows just a lil about fiberglass it seems... he is using materials that will resist water from entering, and Im betting that the water probably isn't sitting on a raw cured fiberglass/resin (probably wouldn't matter if it was using vinylester resin...), tanks are probably coated with gelcoat inside?
Another thing someone pointed out was the water pressing on the outside skin of the boat and the tanks being sectioned off by the stringer system. You can look at this problem as a very simple force distribution if you are worried about this... Pressure= force/area. If you are running sacs on the floor and in storage compartments, that means the stringer system that supports the inner liner of the boat is supporting that weight, along with the floor. So what area does a stringer system occupy along the hull of a boat to distribute load? Answer, not as much as the water itself in these tanks is occupying to distribute load along the hull, also this hull is already stronger than the rest because it is cored...
I am very intrigued by these hulls as they are stepping up to the plate and not only building what seems to be a rock solid hull, but progressing the sport as well... I understand people looking into the numbers, yes I get it, how many numbers vs how many failures vs how many successful out the doors with no warantee work. But fact of the matter is, all of you skeptics out there, if they had 100% track record and produced 3-500 hulls already, would you be in line putting up the cash to buy one? probably not (tire kickers anyone??)
I wish EPIC the best as I hope to buy one when I am able to after I get some of my loans paid on after I get out of college...
Sorry for the long post, just posting things the way I see em...
Duane
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-06-2007, 10:11 AM Reply   
Tyler you are right. I am wrong... I just like having debates. But I am off to PWT in Kelowna... so I can no longer debate... unless the new "Top Secret" boat that is being unveiled there has the wireless internet... satellite Radio... GPS... systems all up and running... with the onboard touch screen dash with built in internet and MAC OSX operating system. Auto pilot system... fuel management system... hybrid design.. electric up to 1800rpms... and then switches to diesel over 1800rpms.

21ft... 97 1/2inch beam... high freeboard... 2100lbs stock built in below floor ballast. in floor storage with 12 cooling/heating... all other typical boat stuff standard...

When trailering the boat... Bluetooth wireless back up camera that projects out the transom of the boat... and shows on dashboard camera or LCD rearview screen. Also used when towing a rider.. the boat mirror converts to LCD screen.

There are some other cool features... like the adjustable swim platform... wont affect surf wake... and no matter how much the boat is weighted down... the platform remains just above water level.

Transom audio with USD Waveguides and 8 inch mids... insane sound!

Cruise control with steering wheel controls and heads up display of information on the LCD rearview mirror.

This is a customized cruise control system with GPS plotting capabilities... bouys with GPS signals can be anchored in private lakes and the boat will drive the exact path each and everytime.

Tower is equipped with 4 swivel racks which are adjustable for any thickness of board. No bungees... calling it the claw... you just slide the board in... and it clamps automatically... then the power window like control button... slides the rack up and out of the way of driver visability and no chance of rope getting caught up... it is slick!!!

All... and I mean.. all.. of the upholstery is easily removed... you can dunk it in the water... and she's all clean again! For the carpeted areas... there is a wet/dry shop vac built in... that doubles as an inflator for tubes etc.

Don't like carry boat bumpers and ropes to tie up... no problem... instead of boat cleat... retractable cables which have a 6 inch rigid portion allow you to tie up to dock or other boats without the need for a boat bumper.

All in all... it is a pretty cool boat... kicks up a nasty wake... I stole the hull design from Chris... when he left his prototype in my backyard for a few days... so I just shrunk it down to a 21 foot size... it will fit in my garage!!!

Due to the slowing economy... a limited number may be built... hoping Epic will pick this one up for their 21 foot model.

If you are in Kelowna... go check it out.. it is sweet... iRide Wakeboats.
Old     (legit)      Join Date: Apr 2007       07-06-2007, 10:14 AM Reply   
hey chris, i think it would be awesome if you were to come out with a "bare bones" epic. like no frills or bells and whistles. just hull, engine, ballast, tower, plain interior, and maybe perfect pass. i know there are people out there who would dig that concept. btw props for starting your own company man. its always been my dream but it seems the established business side of the boardsports industry is pretty competitive, its awesome that your breaking through.

(Message edited by legit on July 06, 2007)
Old     (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SLC, UT 5600'       07-06-2007, 10:55 AM Reply   
Chris ~~ I give two thumbs up for the Epic. I had a company here in Utah that was going to have the Epic but he decided to go another route for income. I did get a chance to get on the boat in bad water conditions with Gary and a family that did not know what the tower was for. The day before I was at the lake to ride behind the Epic while Gary and family were in town but there was a problem with the front ballast tank. Well not a problem just another step on making the best wakeboat out there. From bow to stern I am very impressed with the Epic and the direction you are going with the boat. Do us all a favor here in Utah and bring an Epic back down so we can test it out. I seen Jo post with his drive through Utah not to long ago, heck he even took a picture of my home lake. Good luck with everything and tell Gary I still need that Epic hat he forgot. O believe it or not I have my Epic Wakeboat shirt on today at work, it's Friday .
Old     (lizzyb)      Join Date: Sep 2005       07-06-2007, 11:05 AM Reply   
I am always impressed by the professionalism of everyone in the Epic family. (Even you, Joe )
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-06-2007, 11:35 AM Reply   
Duane... I know what resin infusion is... actually I have played around with the technology myself personally... making some panels for my RV... also trying some other uses for it.


Now don't get me wrong... I don't doubt the process and effectiveness of Resin Infusion... but I don't think it is the best for ALL applications.

As for delamination... if you want to get right into it...

When a boat is properly hand laid... you should not expect any pockets within the layers of fiberglass.

With Infusion... you have a layer of gel coat... then normally a skin coat applied with chopper.. and then hand rolled.. then lay matting.. then foam core.. then matting... then infuse the resin... since the foam does not get totally saturated... and it is serrated (sp?) so it can mold to curves.. you have small little pockets... not delamination... but just areas for moisture in the event there is stress on any of the inner or outer layer...

It has happened to a some infused boats that I know of... because you are unable to fasten to a an infuesed cored boat with screws or rivets.. everything has to be glassed.. moisture will find its way down the thread of the screw...

As for how many boats they have built... keep in mind... Epic does not build their boats... they are built by Katana Industries in which I was able to introduce Chris to Katana Industries.. hence the reason the boats are being built here...

I too... was excited some guy built a boat in his garage... I called him up and said when will we see these on the water... he said.. I need somewhere to build them... so I asked Katana if they would consider building boats for Epic... and they expressed interest.. so here they are...

I had toured the factory on many occassions... and I liked the technology.. and shared that with Chris (Epic)...

Since Katana build runabouts... and the Epic is a far cry from the runabout... Looking at the two different applications... again... I don't doubt or oppose the methods of resin infusion... I just have some questions about it in this application...

I say stick with resin infusion... and go with a hard tanks molded to the shape of the exisiting integrated tanks... I forsee less problems going that route...

My reasoning behind this is... worst case scenario... thoughts...

If a tank leaks... you will have a lot of problems on your hands...

If a hard tank leaks... you simply pull the tank and put a new one in...

But again.. that is just my opinion...

The thought of having a ballast tank that is fiberglassed into the boat... and acts as part of the stringer system... (which is the structual integrity of the boat) is asking for problems.. so it may be ten years down the road... but still... I wouldn't want one to ever leak.

The prototype had a liner system which molded to the stringer system... but the hull was not the ballast tank as it now is in the production model...

Dont get me wrong... I could be totally wrong... but I know there have been problems with some of them leaking... and I just dont know how you would go about fixing something that where the bottom of the tank is the hull.. and the side is the hull and the top is the floor that is fiberglassed on top... to me it is not serviceable.

As for those who are wondering if there are only a few resin infused boats out there... Katana has been around awhile... and there are alot of their runabouts out there... and they fly! Light... and durable... so the technology works...
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-06-2007, 11:42 AM Reply   
Also.. dont take it the wrong way... I am not trying to be overly critical... it is really just that one issue...

I have owned a few boats in my life... and have discussed certain things with the rep.. or the factory.. about the little things that I thought... why dont you do this...

I have been out on the WakeCraft too... and I have been critical with them too...

To be honest... isn't that going to make a company stronger in the future that they have these types of discussions to address peoples questions or concerns?

If there is nothing to worry about... then hey.. there is nothing to worry about.
Old     (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       07-06-2007, 12:06 PM Reply   
"It has happened to a some infused boats that I know of... because you are unable to fasten to a an infuesed cored boat with screws or rivets.. everything has to be glassed.. moisture will find its way down the thread of the screw..."

I still think you are attacking the process of coring and don't get it so to speak... you can't screw into a regularly cored hull either, be it a plywood cored transom, foam core hull, balsa cored hull/transom, or whatever... or else you will risk water intrusion unless all your bolts/screws are sealed with marine adhesive and or resin... what happens if you screw/bolt to a straight fiberglass layup... well if it isn't thick enough or the proper backing plates use... you risk the integrity of that piece... also what are you saying about laying up with chop as the first layer behind the gelcoat, that is not how I've read of infusing being done, and that is not how I would do it, chop strand mat and chopper guns in general are as inferior as they come when it comes to laying up a hull... infusion is a totally 'dry' layup with resin pumped into and out of the system to obtain the perfect content, yes I can see where they may have problems with boat 1 or 2 as it is a delicate process, but infusion is the way to go PERIOD in the construction of a performance oriented boat, be it lightweight speed, or doubleup strong wake boat...

Now as you continue to attack the internal ballast system, I put this question to you... why did Douglas Skater, a company with very high reputation and track record with their offshore boats use fiberglass tanks built into the hull? Gas is obviously more volatile than water and harder on fiberglass parts and there have been one or 2 reported cases recently where ethanol blends (which weren't used or forseen when the hulls were built causing some deterioration in their epoxy layups I think)... so why would a world class offshore company with reputation of some of the strongest and fastest hulls use fiberglass tanks? Especially since you fail to acknowledge their material list and layup schedule as having materials that are waterproof..., I don't think it is going to cause a problem with epic, and I don't think it has yet, or else they wouldn't use those methods... you don't design a hull to fail in 10 years if you have a lifetime warantee on the hull... if you design it with a shelf life of 10 years you implement an 8 year warantee...
Right now you are acting like all of the people who slammed Tige` back in the day for using wooden stringers in their hulls, well you know what, how many rotten stringer stories have you hard from Tige`? I've had my Tige` for 7 years... well my family has, its an 8 year old boat, and guess what... it is just as solid now as it was DAY 1... you keep hypothesizing that XYZ are going to fail when they are non issues and you are just dragging them down.
Also you or others slam them for using Volvo-penta drive systems and those engines possibly having problems... that is unfortunate if so... but that is not an EPIC problem, that is an adaptability problem for Volvo as their supplier standpoint, and I am sure it is being ironed out as we speak, if it is even an issue...
Your rebutal...

Duane
Old     (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       07-06-2007, 12:27 PM Reply   
This is too funny. Three topics going on, people not even fully reading things. I was not the first to ask this question of how many have sold, and I now realized that I should have asked it totally differently. I was inquiring as to if it was common to see, or people were noticing more of the boats on the water, specifically in the SW since they seem to be there more. I was not even expecting an answer straight from the horses mouth, just a general discussion from fellow wakeworlders. I fully understand not wanting to answer my question directly or at all (a smart business decision I know), and as have stated before didn't want anything specific, or NOW! I had heard a rumor that the boats weren't really selling, which is obviously not true, and thats what I wanted to diminish. I respected the company (and still greatly do) so I did not post much on the story since it was most likely a rumor. Now, I know I am only one individual and you can't please everyone, but to totally disregard my question was not professional. And it wasn't only my question. Then to pick and choose what questions to answer (as long as they're good for marketing) seems to violate a few things. I enjoy the fact that this site allows you to be so close to the source, but if the source is going to use the site they better be ready for some uncomfortable times every now and then, and know how to react to them. To disregard questions, and admit that answering "will do nothing to further interest in our boats or increase peoples confidence in our 23v.", again, seems to violate certain things. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, and still understand why my question was not directly answered. I do not understand being attacked for simply wondering if people were snatching these things up like hott cakes, and whether we'd start to see them in the midwest. And why, from a marketing perspective, my question wouldn't be addressed at all. I respect Epic and wish them all the success in the world. I really do like their boat have interest in them and believe their innovative ideas are amazing. Maybe someday I can get in one.

Keep laughing committed, I hope they're not only striving for customers like you.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-06-2007, 12:30 PM Reply   
I stand corrected. Duane... you are absolutely correct. Thank you for the clarification. That puts my mind at ease. Thank you!
Old     (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       07-06-2007, 12:38 PM Reply   
I wouldn't say I'm absolutely correct, but I'd say I've done my research here and there and believe in their technology as well as infusion... I hope they get some out the door, and get a dealer on the east coast so when I am able to buy, I'll have local options...


Duane
Old     (uppledup17)      Join Date: Sep 2005       07-06-2007, 2:33 PM Reply   
Chris,
First off, hats off for making your dream boat a reality and I think you have a good product started. I looked at Epic at the past Chicago Boat Show. I really was impressed with the boat. We decided to buy a X-45 because for the time being it fit our needs better. That being said, we will be looking again in another year or so and I will be looking at Epic again. There are a couple concerns for our personal needs that i wanted to ask you about. I think you have a sweet tower and the foldable design is perfect for us. We store our boat in a shore station and take the tower down after each ride. Not cool with the X-45. The problem I saw with your tower though is that the mounts stick out past the gunnel. I can see it being very easy to hit the mounts when docking and coming into the shore station. Also, when you sit in the driver seat, one bar on the tower frame is right in your line of sight. Not bashing by any means just a couple things I noticed. I was also wondering if you plan or have installed a door between the windshield. That is really nice when just crusing around not having to deal with a wind tunnel.
I will say that I was very impressed with the Epic and the guys you had working the show were very cool(got is us in for free). I hope you continue progressing and I look forward to talking with you in the coming months regarding our next purchase. I can't remember if you had a rep close to us in IL but if so , let me know. Peace.
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-06-2007, 5:23 PM Reply   
Sorry Kyle, but I don't know if you could have described our resin infusion process any more incorrectly. I don't want to give an infusion class here but I can tell you that EVERY bit of our glass and core is put under extreme pressure and then the resin is pumped through the part. You can infuse just a top layer of glass onto something but that is NOT how we build our product(specifically for the failure reasons Kyle listed above). The shear strength of the core is the major reason why our composites are so strong and if you don't flow the infusion over the top and bottom of the core you will get no adhesion and the shear strength will be crap. There are hand laid boats that use core but the strength of hand laid core is nothing compared to an infused and cored composite structure. Then their is the air and water intrusion issues into infused laminate. There is no air in a properly resin infused part. There are thousands of pounds of vacuum pressure per square inch applied to the part before the resin is shot in. This pressure pulls all the air or gas out of the part and replaces it with resin. It is darn near impossible to hand roll out all the air from any laminate not put under pressure, no matter how easy the part is to build(and hulls, decks, and ballast tanks are not easy parts by any means) it will still have air in it if it is built by hand. This means that the air left in the part creates many failure points that will become apparent should a failure mode ever present itself. With the water intrusion, I can tell you that water can get into core through screw holes and such. That is why we don't put screw into our core in water prone areas and we use core that is not hydroscopic(doesn't naturally absorb water in any manner) so if water does penetrate the core for whatever reason it will not travel through the core it will just sit where it intruded the part. The resin we use is also not hydroscopic(polyester is hydroscopic) so we don't have issues with the water contact with the hull or the ballast tank sides. Freezing could make any intrusion worse over time but the trick is not giving the wonderful H2O we depend on for the sport the opportunity to cause problems.

WakeGump: we are working on a walk-thru wind block and the tower was put on the outside of the window to keep the gunnels clean/easy to walk on/ and make ingress and egress easier. I feel your pain on the visibility but it seemed like an easy compromise for the other tower functionality we get out of the tower and I have never had any problems with docks and the tower. I think when you get too close you start evasive maneuvers well before the 1.5" of tower overhang on each side. Anyways, ride that X45 hard this season and check out the 2008s when they are around your area
Old    bocephus            07-06-2007, 9:37 PM Reply   

quote:

By Chris Anthony (cla17) on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 5:23 pm:
There is no air in a properly resin infused part. There are thousands of pounds of vacuum pressure per square inch applied to the part before the resin is shot in.




I'm no professional engineer (PE), but I have had some graduate level engineering classes and I have a question...

While I do respect Mr. Anthony for his sticktoitness and general gumption for trying something new I have to call BS on the thousands of pounds of vacuum PSI comment...

First:
1 inch of mercury = 0.49109778 pounds per square inch

Second:
Evangelista Torricelli discovered way, way back when (approx. 1640) that a pure vacuum would be at about 30 inHG.

Third:
Max (pure vacuum) 30inHG * .491 = 14.73psi

So how the heck do you break the laws of physics and have "thousands of pounds of vacuum pressure PSI??

You could change the temperature of the system and get it a little lower, but no where near 100 PSI let alone "thousands". Most Vacuum systems operate at about 20-26 inHG.

Also, I assume that you developed your process with Arjen's Polyworx or RTM-Worx software which is good. With the samples I have seen of your boat taken apart it looks like you are using CVI or something similar based on the un-even surface finish. BTW, what is your core material, it looks like HDF...

Did you ever move the resin tubes so that the top deck wouldn't have the waves and dents in it like in this boat? (I haven't seen the latest Epic)
Upload

For those that are interested, here is info on the infusion process. I don't know if this is how an Epic is made, but I would bet that the process to be very similar. The infusion process isn't exactly new, many, many people/companies are using it, especially in the Netherlands. It's a great way to build a one-off part because once you double check everything you can lay everything up dry and then add the resin. Heck, you don't even have to touch the resin...Here is a picture on how a hull gets infused:

Upload

The materials are all installed dry in the mold. The tubes deliver the resin into the dry materials and actually gets pulled through with the vacuum (no where near a thousand pounds).

You can watch the silly video here:

CVI Video
Old     (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       07-06-2007, 10:38 PM Reply   
ok so it seems Chris may have either exaggerated or been off on his calculation... or been off by a factor of feet as 14.7 PSI is 2116.8 PSF. Also I know shops that do very well with infusion and run with pressures less than pure vaccuum... IE 32-33 inches of mercury, so it is possible to run a pressure less than pure vaccuum... besides the fact that you've been on nearly every thread to discredit what EPIC is doing, what positive do you have to add to this thread... oh yea NOTHING. So now that we've got that set aside, I suppose chris shouldn't have said thousands of pounds PSI vacuum, but tell me how many boat companies in the US and canada infuse every hull they make, I bet the number would be small because the process is fairly complex from hull to hull and is relatively expensive... now tell me how many wake-boat companies use infusion... none you say? tell me why? because they are too production oriented and to infuse a hull would take too much time? ok so now we come back to epic, which seems to build nice, performance oriented hulls at a very competive price, let em try to prove themselves and don't dwell on stupid sht like the sht you just posted...

Duane
Old    bocephus            07-07-2007, 7:53 AM Reply   
Actually Duane,
I fully support what Epic and Chris are doing. I have never said they are garbage by any means... I actually would have maybe bought an Epic if the prices were a little lower and the dealer that sells them here in AZ would take a trade in, but at that time the price was on par with a CC and the dealer, Arizona Watersports, wouldn't not take my MB Sports trade in.

You are also dead wrong as far as being complex and expensive. At the beginning it is, but once you get everything figured out it is actually probably a little cheaper; you use a lot more resin, but a lot less labor. I would rather buy materials versus more employees any day. One of the biggest advantages of the infusion process is that you have very, very low scrap and don't need the craftsmanship it takes hand lay a boat. If you use the Polyworx program you can pretty much map out the entire infusion process and know what is going to happen before you do it. If you have all the molds setup and the resin tube placements already determined you should be able to make a hull faster than someone doing it by hand. It's also a lot less of a mess!

In the picture I was also asking an honest question. If you knew shinola about the infusion process you would know that it is notorious for leaving a bad surface finish. One of the ways to stop this is to go with more gel or change the positions of the resin tubes. Resin tends to flow at the points where the tubes are and leave waves in the finish. Look at the flat areas on the Epic (maybe the first prototypes) and it has lots of waves in the finish. I was asking if he figured that problem out or not...

What have I added that is positive to this thread? Well I tried to give some people a better idea what the infusion process was all about. Also, if I want to ask questions I will, its up to Chris to decide if wants to answer them or not. It's people like you who do nothing other than run around blindly praising something and not asking real questions that give nothing positive. Chris chooses to come on here and try to educate us about his boats so I ask questions. The picture of me jumping the Epic is really just a rib on Jimmy and Chris knows that...Jimmy is notorious for leaving the stereo on in the boat or running out of gas on the lake, heck, I bet he has been towed in more than any one else at our lake!

Last, but not least, I really don't think I have to justify any of my posts to you or anyone else and I don't think that you help Chris Anthony out at all by attacking me. Chris Anthony is one of the most articulate posters that I have ever seen in a public forum. If he ever wanted to go in to marketing I believe he would be very successful. Also, without me giving him a little rib and poke every now and then we would have little opportunity to read such great posts such as yours! BTW, I have corresponded with Chris regarding boats, the infusion process, and general engineering for some time, heck, at least since '02 on the old Fibre Glast forums when I first heard of him.

Ryan
Old    bocephus            07-07-2007, 10:19 AM Reply   
Just in case anyone is interested in the Resin Infusion process here some pretty good pictures and explanation...

Resin Infusion Process

(Message edited by bocephus on July 07, 2007)
Old     (malibuboarder75)      Join Date: Jan 2004       07-07-2007, 10:40 AM Reply   
Bocephus, I found the 'thousands of pounds of vacuum pressure per square inch' also to be exaggerated. I interned on a project on the 787. When we did vacuum bags on the carbon fiber parts, the highest pressure we got was 28inHg. Also remember that we are below sea level in New Orleans.
Old    bocephus            07-07-2007, 10:59 AM Reply   
Cool, what major parts are infused on the 787? I learned the process by building a K1 Kayak when I lived Salida, CO. I ran Browns on the Arkansas in it and later failed trying run Pine Creek in it where it was destroyed. I used carbon fibre and kevlar though, not fiberglass, but I used the same process. I later ran Pine Creek in an old Corsica and made it..
Old    bocephus            07-07-2007, 11:48 AM Reply   
BTW, here is a good article on George Speirs, he is an engineer..good reading...



George Speirs
Old     (malibuboarder75)      Join Date: Jan 2004       07-07-2007, 3:34 PM Reply   
Actually, we were just vacuum bagging the parts and we had to get each part to 22inMG for 10 minutes. All of the carbon fiber was pre- impregnated with resin. We were building the reverse thrusters for the 787 in New Orleans at Lockheed Martin's facility. Unfortunately it was costing them $150,000 per piece to use a fiber placement machine. Boeing decided to go with a hand lay up costing about $30,000 a piece, so Lockheed lost the contract. Still a really fun job.
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-07-2007, 9:38 PM Reply   
No offense taken Bo.

Bo and I have talked for a long time about the 23v and how we build it. He has made a good catch on the 1000s of PSI statement. Simply substitute feet for inches and we are all straight on that point... Sorry about that, I know the devil is in the details sometimes. I can tell you that I have only seen 30inMG a couple of times at Sea Level with parts. In the mountains of Penticton we see far less. We did have much bigger pumps in San Diego though(but that only helps with out pacing any leaks). And very cool article, George is doing some amazing stuff up in Canada for us. I had my infusion experience with our plant down here in San Diego and heading up to Canada to merge our processes with his was the best thing we could have done to refine our infusion methods for mass production. And as far as I know the only other company building boats in mass(100+) with resin infusion is http://www.nitroboats.com/z9/ and they just started this season. I think they just infuse their hull for the weight savings. We don't just do our hulls with infusion. We do all but a couple of small parts with resin infusion. This means that once our infused deck and hull our joined it is even that much stronger It seems to make a world of difference to sport fishermen(and thus sells for a BIG premium) but we haven't made a big stink about our build process thus far because I think we have stronger selling points to the wake community, but it is always for people to know how well our Epic boats are built
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-07-2007, 10:47 PM Reply   
The article on George Spiers... 1000-1200 boats per year? That seems like a lot? 3 boats per day? Is that correct? Wow!!! What are MC, SAN, BU, etc making? Could it be possible we will see Epic/Katana take over the whole wakesport boating industry?

At that rate, I would imagine that no one should have issues of how many boats have sold or being made... That is a lot of boats... and they will gain far more market share than 5% on a year to year basis...

Not only should you strongly consider an Epic.. but on their website.. I believe you can invest in the company Epic.. I am not a rocket scientist... but not only will you get a phenominal rate of return on your investment... but quickly too!
Old     (rson)      Join Date: Jun 2002       07-07-2007, 11:28 PM Reply   
Bu made over 3500 units last year and this year.
Old     (garret_s)      Join Date: Apr 2006       07-08-2007, 8:45 AM Reply   
Chris: When is the new website going up?
Old    bocephus            07-08-2007, 8:56 AM Reply   

quote:

By Kyle (hamkj) on Saturday, July 07, 2007 - 10:47 pm:

The article on George Spiers...




Kyle,
You don't think that a was positive post on my part, posting the link to the article do you?? I'm keeping track now and need to know.

Thanks,
Ryan
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-08-2007, 10:44 AM Reply   
Ryan... I think that was a very informative post... even as a local I was unaware of that article. Thanks for the insight!

Kind of changes the way I should.. and maybe others.. who were looking for NUMBERS...should think...

If BU and other big 3 are building 3000ish units per year with over 10 models in their line up...

Epic will be building over 1000 of possibly only 1 or 2 models... in a very specific market... thats awesome...

It will be a rude awakening for some of the big boys... you would think SAN, X-Star, Wakesetter, Gravity Games, Riders Editions.. etc will slow in sales with the full on itroduction of the EPIC.

Could also make for an interesting used market over the next few years!
Old     (rson)      Join Date: Jun 2002       07-08-2007, 11:58 AM Reply   
Kyle whatever you are smoking I WANT SOME.
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-08-2007, 4:41 PM Reply   
The new Epic site will probably be ready in September for Surf Expo...
Old     (bfwake)      Join Date: Mar 2007       07-08-2007, 5:02 PM Reply   
Wakegump

Sorry to hear the x-45 isn't working out. Send me an email and we will find a time to bring the Epic over from MI. I remember talking with you about the tower mounts, we have had zero problems but lets try it on your lift. Hope all is well, Go Bears!


Anyone else wanting to see, ride, drive or buy an Epic we will be at Walled Lake tournament this weekend just outside of Detroit. http://www.wlwake.com
Old     (uppledup17)      Join Date: Sep 2005       07-09-2007, 7:04 AM Reply   
Eric,
I don't think I said the x-45 wasn't working out, just a little tougher towerwise but it's all good. We will be in touch. I will say you are up against some tough competition though, the 45 was pretty sweet on Lake Michigan this weekend. I shot you an email. Peace.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-09-2007, 9:07 AM Reply   
WakeGump... I will take the X-45 when you get your new Epic!!! Thanks. When should I expect delivery? I will do my best on my end to get your new Epic pushed to the front of the line!
Old     (texasmasterc)      Join Date: Sep 2002       07-09-2007, 10:05 AM Reply   
Quote "Epic will be building over 1000 of possibly only 1 or 2 models... in a very specific market... thats awesome...

It will be a rude awakening for some of the big boys... you would think SAN, X-Star, Wakesetter, Gravity Games, Riders Editions.. etc will slow in sales with the full on itroduction of the EPIC.

Could also make for an interesting used market over the next few years!"

The Vomiting of Marketing and Sales on this thread is appalling. I really don't see the big three worrying about losing market share anytime soon. I hope Epic has years of finances acquired to stay afloat (hehehe pardon the pun)



quote:

There are some things that I just don't talk about, for obvious reasons.


Yeah, cause nothing sinks a product faster than no sales. Nobody wants to invest in the "Edsel of the 2000's." if it is a losing prospect. Does any see the likeness of the 1958 Edsel and the Epic???
Old    bocephus            07-09-2007, 10:19 AM Reply   
Does it matter?

http://www.fuel-efficient-vehicles.org/energy-news/?p=118

http://www.automotto.org/entry/steve-fambros-all-plastic-car-clocks-330-mpg-record/

Chris is busy.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-09-2007, 10:26 AM Reply   
I think the next model of Epic... should be...

2008 Epic 21Aptera. Epic's new 21 footer... cruises the lake in Electric Mode... But when fully loaded... comes out the hole with ease on the Diesel Torque Powerhouse then when Perfect Pass engages... the Electric Motor takes over!!!
Old     (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       07-09-2007, 1:45 PM Reply   
Kyle I become increasingly confused with every post you make, as richson said, pass some of that sht my way friend, quit hogging it
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-09-2007, 2:50 PM Reply   
Rich and Duane... its all good here in BC. Combine what they can grow in BC with infusion... and you got yourself some pretty potent stuff. As they say... less harmful to the environment... means that stuffs gotta go somewhere... ahhhhhhhhhhh...... What will I dream up of next...

You guys will wish you could have the boat I design... which I expect to have on the water by end of 2008 or early 2009.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-10-2007, 9:36 AM Reply   
Hey Joe... whats up with the latest...

These guys in Penticton are still having problems with their boat.

It went back into the shop because the batteries are always dead... which it is suspected that the bilge is always on because of either a faulty float switch or it is still taking on water.

Why don't they just chaulk this one up as a demo boat and give them a new boat so they can have a boat to use for the summer?

I would be getting a little frusterated that it isn't in perfect running form due to the fact it is brand new and only minutes from the factory.

I know of dealers and manufacturers that have done that in extreme cases to ensure the customer has a boat they can use.

I will be totally honest... locally... people who have been on the boat... seen the boat.. ridden behind the boat... and own the boat... have all been impressed with the wake... but totally disappointed with the reliability...

It has been nothing but problems since day one... can't you hook these guys up with a replacement until the factory can figure out what is wrong with their boat...

Problems encountered and I believe are fixed now..

Lack of power. Not running on all cyclinders.
Taking on water due to missing middle skeg. Aparently fell off... dont know how that happens.
Bilge is always on.
Batteries are always dead.
Taking on water through mystery hole.. they are thinking exhaust.

I think that this boat was an excellent opportunity to have this boat making waves on our Okanagan lakes... and it has.. but in a more cautious negative way...

As the marketing guy... why don't you make sure these guys have a new boat for this weekend!!!

Last night we had over 10 of us pile on to... 2 old closed bow ski boats.... not near as comfy as the Epic that was being yanked out of the water once again.

Come on guys... Consumers are going to demand better reliability for $70,000+... especially when we only boat 3-4 months of the year...

I challenge Epic to get these guys a new boat for the weekend!!! GET 'ER DONE!!!!
Old    bocephus            07-10-2007, 9:57 AM Reply   
Maybe some of those are the same problems that Jimmy's boat has, no wait, he just keeps leaving the stereo on...
Old     (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       07-10-2007, 10:30 AM Reply   
Kyle - is it your job to get them a new boat? if not, stay out of it. if you did not pay for the boat, it is not your business to be trying to get them one. if they feel they should be getting a new boat, they can contact whomever they got the original from. It seems like you just like busting balls to make sure EPIC does not succeed.
just go away...
Old     (wakecda)      Join Date: Jun 2007       07-10-2007, 10:36 AM Reply   
kyle, do you sell boats for mastercraft or malibu?
If you apply the 2% rule, which means you have to be 2% smarter then the boat, you should be fine. If you are unable to check the oil, turn the stereo off and not run into thing in the water I would guess that there might run into some problems.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-10-2007, 10:43 AM Reply   
Thomas thomas thomas... The funny thing is... people give me a hard time about some of the things I post... look through history... I give all companies a hard time...

My colleague bought a brand new Mercedes AMG55... it was in the shop 14 times in the first 12 months... I gave Mercedes a hard time on a discussion board... no one had issues with that.

I have been critical of many different companies on Wakeworld...

I am not here so people DONT succeed... I am here to make companies accountable for the products they build and sell.

I want Epic to succeed... I have many people every day that think that boat is mine.. or the company is mine etc etc etc...

I simply connected the two companies so they could get these built...

But people come up to me at the lake every day.. asking me... and questioning me why the one boat that is out there is having so many problems...

Also.. for those who are out there thinking a person can ultimately affect a company on a positive or negative basis.. you got to be kidding me...

If thats the case.. maybe someone will hire me to be the demise of other companies.. hahahahaha

Bring it on!!! $$$$$$ Taking offers.


On a serious note... That is only one boat out of the many that they have built that there have been problems to date... there are times when you have a lemon... just replace it... its best for both parties... being a new company.. you need demos... and you need factory time to build new boats.. not repair... and get them a perfect boat and everyone will be happy... and will show that things can be resolved in a timely manner.


Thomas.. just one question... if it was your boat... what would you expect...

You have owned it for just over a month... and it hasnt run properly since day one? Not minor problems... problems that inhibit you from using the boat?

I would demand a new boat or my money back.

(Message edited by hamkj on July 10, 2007)

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