Competition protests

I like the third pass idea, with an extra fall on a "all or nothing" type trick.... not that all the top pros don't have enough tricks to fill 3 passes but the really really really good ones will take full advantage

the tour is a show - good pt. here's a better idea.

have two rounds. one round elimination - whatever format....then, second round freeride format - no scores provided - but video taped. have a big after party where you replay the videos of the second round and award places. let judges and the audience at the party have a voice. it's another opportunity for sales, etc...better scoring and a freeride format that makes sense for wakeboarding.

if everbody stops pretending the tour is something it's not, it can be improved for the good of everyone.

gotta get back to freeride - snowboard and skate venues have all changed - wakeboarding is too static - we can't build mega ramps but we can let more expression flow through!

What I find so staggering is that they miss so much. "I wasn't concentrating", "I never saw that........"

Otherwise you need to win so emphatically that the judging is a formality. Or else it's going to be like a boxer having to score a knockout to win on points.

Surely if your mind is going to drift all the time you shouldn't be judging?

Jury duty is probably not a good idea either.

an illustration of why lots of wakeboarders think the "Pro" riding is a joke, not to mention non-wakeboarders

So lets get this straight. The best way to advance is to lose first then protest.

Or even better, save your protest for when you have actually lost the final.

Please note: The judges decisions are highly negotiable.

If I don't give my kids what they want, they'll go to thier Mom in hopes that she will over ride me. Always leads to a big fight. Sounds a little like this. These Riders are'nt getting what they want. As far as I'm concerned once a decision has been made that should be it unless the results are so messed up and obvious. But If thats the case and the judges can't get it right then instead of changing results they should change judges.

again, how do they do it in Olympic figure skating or snow boarding. cant be that hard to make a system that works

If wakeboarding had the scrutiny of a large public following, they would never change the outcome of an event AFTER the fans have left or the coverage was over. Could you imagine the howling if they changed who won the PGA championship yesterday???

Figure skating has compulsory and a free skate, and a compulsory would be more objective comparing apples to apples, but would be a snoozer to watch every competitor throw a TS5, Tanny to blind, HS7, BS180, etc. Seems to me the main issue in this case was the prelims. Maybe have a prelim wild card or two that could go to a rider that was in a really tough heat or to the one where it was more or less a tie for second. If the tourney wanted to be more serious about accuracy and objectivity, there would be more judges and you could throw out the top and bottom score. Most subjective oriented sports have more judges to dilute any individual bias and when average or summed, have greater precision.

are the judges paid, or are they volunteers?
are the judges best friends with certain riders, or are they all just acquaintences?

I would NOT want to be a judge in an industry like this, that's for sure.

If judges are missing tricks, that's just rediculous. Letting riders leave the event under the impression that they won, and then retracting, even more rediculous.

"are the judges best friends with certain riders, or are they all just acquaintences? "

I don't know who the judges are now, but I heard there were problems with judges favoring their buddies years ago.

Hmm ya think.

I have just picked Nicola up from the airport. The more I hear about how they handled it the more angry I get. I wish I could have been there to fight her corner for her.The Gravel Tour is run better than this.

Amazing how the people that screw you over want to be your friend afterward.

"You know it's not personal........" No?? When it's happening to you it becomes personal.

Aaaahh, judging ........

Some of the most fun I have at a comp (only because my riding isn't up there with the big boys), and also some of the worst times at a comp.

<<disclaimer>> - I am judging with the IWSF system at present in New Zealand - we will be changing soon (hopefully)

Judges are giving their time to help rank riders based on a given run on a given day ... that's it. I love judging, it's something I feel strongly about, and I always aim to provide the best standard possible, in the fairest manner, with NO BIAS to any riders (I don't care if they are my friends, if I know they can ride better, or if one rider has worked harder than another).

The comment above "And then the explanation from the judges - " yeah I meant to write this and I wrote that" I wasn't really concentrating so I missed that" and "So and so (the protester) has pointed out that....." And so on and so on ........ " absolutely horrifies me! The words "I wasn't concentrating" should never be heard around judging (regardless if it is the worlds finals, or a grassroots comp).
Judging is hard work (especially the speed at which the top end riders are completing passes), and if someone isn't capable of concentrating at the level they are judging, they shouldn't be there.

The ability to protest should be there. It should exist for errors in accounting (I know, there shouldn't be any, but we are human). I can see the above example of judges missing tricks entirely being an issue that should be able to be protested also.
If a rider protests, the judges concerned (and chief judge) should talk through the issue with the protesting rider, and if further investigation is warranted (ie - the protest is valid), then all the affected riders should be consulted before any results are changed. This is the only fair way I can see. At this point, should all the riders' runs and scores be scrutinised from this heat/final? Probably.

Beyond this, the judges decision should be final. There should be no dicussion along the lines of "But my style was better, I went bigger" etc. The judges were in the boat and made their decision(s) at the time of the run. End of story.

With regards to Travis cutting the power if he deems it is unsafe - as he has stated, he couldn't live with himself if someone was injured because he failed to act when he saw danger. He is in control, and if the majority of riders don't like what he is doing, and how he is driving, let them speak up and find another driver...........all I can hear is deafening silence. I think your place in the driver's seat is safe Mr Moye.

Rant over

(Message edited by wakedoc on August 17, 2009)

Chris, you're obviously pissed off and with good reason. I think its great that parents a speaking up about this. It's about time. But this is gonna get to a point where you are no longer helping your daughter. I'm all in favor of speaking out. But we all no exactly how you feel. Let the rest of us defend you now.

Austin told me the story about his judging nightmare in the Philippines. He qualified for the next round, but was a little bit baffled by the results because he didn't place as high as he thought he should in one of the categories. He thought that if he protested, he might of had a chance to move up a spot, but it really didn't matter because he was already moving to the next round.

He went to bed that night happy to have qualified. In the morning, he walked to the dock with his gear, but was informed (I believe it was right before the heat) that someone protested and it resulted in him being moved down and out of the qualifying. They said that they tried to find him the night before to tell him, but since they couldn't they just decided to tell him right before he was supposed to ride.

Now if all of that is true, this situation is wrong in soooooo many ways. To move a guy down a notch or two without even letting him have a say in the matter is just horrible. For it to go down in this fashion is even worse. Sounds like Austin had a pretty good case for getting his score improved rather than getting moved down, but since he wasn't there to make that case, he got absolutely screwed.

exactly. i have an 11 year old daughter. no idea if she will ever compete at any level of wakeboarding. nor will i force her. she has been playing basketball for years. she likes that. the point is, how do you tell someone they won and then say, "Ooops, we are sorry, you came in second." or, "you made the finals!...opps we are sorry, you didnt make the finals." I am a big guy, i own gyms, i am non-violent, but i could be intimidating! but i would have to kick somebodys butt after hearing that. again unless things change this sport will never get serious recognition. though it seems all sports go through growing pains, let's hope the people at the top hear this. and have the balls to do something about it.

Woah - haven’t seen so many posts for one thread in one day for a while...

Chris is right – in nearly every contest in Europe, the first results are final and non negotiable, no matter what. The judges have made the scores before the even gets back to the dock after the heat finishes. No one even bothers to complain as its pointless and you only end up looking like a idiot...

We have been using the head to head system a bit lately in Europe, mainly for local comps. It’s so clear for everyone who should make it through and who not...

I guess it wouldn’t work for the pro tour though...

Right it made work go fast all day and drained my blackberry!

David, that story is so sad. Communication appears to be lacking in all these examples - as I said earlier, if a change is going to be made (because of a mistake in the judging (ie -missed tricks, addition problems), then the riders affected should be consulted (or at the very least told in a timely manner, and given the opportunity to understand why the change was made).

wow what an absolute mess. I will say that just from a purely outside perspective it doesn't seem right to post an official score and than retract it.

What seems most clear from this is that the whole judging and protest system NEEDS to be overhauled. I just dont think it is acceptable or credible for the sport for judging to be conducted in such a manner. This particular case in which Rathy first made the finals and than was bumped out, and with Nicola WINNING officially and then being downgraded to second place is a joke I'm afraid. It seriously undermines the sport.

I dont blame Harf or Dallas for challenging, thats their perogative and they obviously had a case to make which was accepted by the judges. No, my issue is that this situation should not be allowed to arise in the first place. Whether that means more qualified judging, new judging guidelines or whatever something needs to be done. This is the pros livelihood after all, they need to be treated with some respect and to me that means providing fair judging that is non negotiable and FINAL.

My son a few years ago at WWA Nationals had a judging error against him. We thought for sure he was at least third. Then at awards he came in 4th. He protested and it was found they made an addition mistake. They corrected it, but photo's were already taken and the plaque was given to someone else. He ended up getting his plaque in the mail, not quite the same as recognition at the event. He went on to win Worlds so I guess it worked out.

I am sorry that the judging has come down to so many protests. It must be truly hard for those affected. It was very confusing for all of us waiting for the pro mens finals and the long delays.

But I believe in Karma. And she can be a real B*&ch, it may haunt them forever.

Mr. Butler,

Just to clarify on what happened in reno I never "protested" my results. I went to review the judges sheets (which almost every pro rider does when you don't make it through a heat) While I was looking at sheets the judges were double checking their scores and one judge found a mistake that moved me from third to second in spins. It was a really close heat between all three of us and it could have gone either way. I didn't change anyones scores. I looked at them to improve myself as a contest rider.

To say that "this was not my finest hour" is absurd. It is unbelievable that you have the guts to get on wakeworld and talk trash about someone you don't know and a situation you know nothing about.

We were both present in the tower when the results were changed and I sympathized for Aaron in a really tough situation. Was i supposed to give up an opportunity to win a pro event because another rider had more points then me?

I think you should chill out on trash talking people on wakeworld for a little while!

Thanks to all you guys who had my back on this one.

Danny Harf

I don't have one of those 'pwned' images, so if somebody could just insert one here, that would be terrific!

I'm a Soccer fan. Welcome

Talk about judging errors; did anyone notice at xgames this year in bmx park when the announcers announced a rider had won gold; everyone jumped for joy including the rider, only for the announcers to come back on and say; oh wait..we still have another entire round! That rider went on to get third.

Mistakes will happen, and until that goes away (never) every rider should be given the right to review the results. Yeah I've heard judges missing tricks completely, and that's why riders should be able to check for errors. Like Danny said; it's not like he went to the head judge and said, "here's some poker chips, advance me through."

freakin' great post harf! i think mr. butler needs to write up an apology to you that goes on the front page of wakeworld.


a couple more

I do not post on wakeworld very often but i see things like this and i have to give my two cents. To set the record straight I am very close friends with both aaron and danny I can also say I have "reviewed scores" against both of them in the past and they have done the same to me as well. it is very rare that a score is actually changed. Most Pro riders will go take a look at the sheets after an unsuccessful heet especially if it is close even if for nothing more than the learning experience. I personally look at the sheets even after i win a heet just so i can see what i did right and what i can improve on. Danny did what any true professional would do. It is unfortunate for Aaron but he would have done the same thing if it were the other way around, anyone of us would. Things like this happen BUT they are not something that should be brought out and discussed publicly. We have the best judges in the world, they know exactly what they are seeing everytime. I keep hearing this from alot of people its strange how when your winning there is nothing wrong with the judges or the system but when you lose all of a sudden its the judges fault or the system is screwed up. Sometimes things just don't go your way thats life. It is not the fault of anyone the judges took another look at the scores and found something that wasn't right. No one was playing favorites or trying to screw the other one over...simply doing our job. I hope i make sense as i am typing this all off the top of my head. I just want to let everyone know that what you read on these discussions are sometimes not 100% accurate nobody did anything wrong this weekend......To all the "wakeboard dads" that are on these things im asking you all. Please you may have a child in the industry which gives you more inside information than the average person but some of that stuff isn't put in the articles and what not for a reason. It is a part of our JOB and some things are meant to stay private for reasons like this stories get twisted and people get blamed especially when you dont have the FULL STORY. If you really want to help out our sport that your child is so dedicated to then pull them riding go to events with them learn their runs and tricks help them handle the pressure of competition. If you really want to talk publicly about our sport by all means do it! BUT talk about the things that progress our sport not the "drama" has their even been one mention on this post about the fact this weekend a 1080 was done in contest? how bout that bob became the first to ever win every junior men stop? maybe someone mentioned the fact Harley became the second person to win the pro tour rookie season in company with Parks Bonifay? I didnt think so but thats whats important right now. we are professionals on and off the water Aaron came to danny after and congratulated him you dont see him on here talking smack....NEITHER SHOULD YOU!!! THANKS

Good stuff Danny & Phil. Phil, congrats on sucking up the pressure and winning @ Reno.

oh my! thank you so much Danny and Phil for writing something... Ive been reading this thread for the past couple days and just pulling my hair out...

I love that guys like Chris are so involved in there kids sport... Sports like wakeboarding need the killer parents like the Valdez family, etc... But seriously, some of the stuff Ive seen wakeboard parents post on this site is ridiculous... My question would be, if Nicola wasn't your kid would you be writing about this?

There is a reason why most pros don't post on here...

Ya it sucks for Aaron, but hes a true professional and this will only push him harder!...

congrats to Rusty, Bob and Harley!

Best thread ever?

Im sorry Danny and Phillip. I am not taking sides for anyone. but the point remains there should be no errors in adding or missing a trick in professional sports. that's just not acceptable. and if you guys want to grow the sport you should be at the top of this list to straighten it out.

I work at a pro shop and though we try for perfection we can't attain it and let down our customers from time to time. There will always be minor screw ups weather its judging, or anything else. One stop to fail blog should point that out. We just need measures in place to make sure that it happens as little as possible for the sport. From the sounds of this thread I don't know if any of us know if changes is needed or not.

Officials will always make mistakes from time to time, riders will always feel slighted, parents will always think that their kid got the raw deal, people will always question judges calls, etc, etc, etc...

It has always been like that and regardless of what changes get put in place, it will always be like that. As long as humans are running an event that is subjectively scored, there will always be mistakes. The difference is that some people accept that and move on, while others choose to get online and bitch incessantly to a bunch of people who have little to no control over the situation.

Danny- I apologise unreservedly. I have been thinking about some of the stuff that went down over the weekend and how it played out and it was just awful.

I was really upset for Aaron and I had spoken to his dad as well who was probably even more upset. Then after that, Nicola's whole shambolic situation and it just threw me and I probably said things I shouldn't have.

I hope you accept my apology.

Having said that I have not changed my opinion about any of the judging fiasco this weekend.

How can somebody be allowed to protest so vehemently while the other rider is not even there and then only get summoned once it has been overturned?

Little League Parents?

Let the riders iron it out as it now appears Danny and Aaron did in the first place......

It's not about Aaron and Danny. It's about how the judging works.

And when you are doing something for a living it gets elevated to a slightly higher level than little league.

^^^^Really?

"What exactly did Danny achieve by getting Rathy out of the finals?? Would Aaron have done it to him if so much was at stake for Danny??
Aarons parents are two of the nicest people I have met and have been around the circuit for a long time.His dad is pretty much stunned by what happened.
Makes the shambolic womens judging seem almost insignificant.

Not Danny's finest hour."

OMG, went to bed and got curious to see this thread this morning. It seems to me everybody here has a legit argument. Thats what makes this country the best place in the world to live. Freedom of speach. Parents should be concerned especially when it comes to their children. We are protective by nature. I can only imagine how much money is poured into supporting a child through this sport. Probably alot more goes into it then what comes out. Im sure Dannys and Phil parents too have had their frustrating moments as they were bringing their kids up through this sport. I am an outsider looking in and I believe that if some changes are'nt made soon alot of awesome riders won't be at these comps anymore. I've already seen a huge drop in participants, especially the Junior Men. The sport needs parents like Chris so that the sport can survive.

"i apologize, but...."

party on!

I apologized to Danny. He can choose to accept it or not. I said some things that I shouldn't have.

Now for all the people that dislike me to climb on and bash away.I am not going to change what I think or how I choose to defend my daughter because I have a different viewpoint to some people or may not be part of some clique.

The way they post scores that go out over the internet and then rehash them later is WRONG
I never even asked Nicola if she felt that she had won. THAT IS NOT THE POINT OF THE THREAD.

And again, I am sorry I dragged Danny into it. But I stand by everything else I have said.

Flame on

YEAAH Danny!!!!!!!!!! YEAAAAH Phil!!! This Just went to the BEST THREAD EVERY Sucks though for the people who may have been able to do better way to hold your ground boys!!! AHAHAHAHAHA...

Damn.... so much Drama. Looks like Phillip, Darren, and a few others were up late last night brewing over this thing at ~2 am or that is the posted time anyway.

"review" politically correct term for "protest"???? hmmm, thanks for the clarification!!

Still wondering if Andrew "reviewed" his .25 score with Harleys in the semis, or "because it was really close & could have gone either way" did he let the young gun have his moment, since he'd been there, done that??

Cool to hear Rathy gave congrats to Danny - thanks for the inside info, Phil!

Oh & CONGRATS on the win Phil!

It sucks that it took a thread like this to see Danny and Phil posting on WW. You guys should come back more often. People on here would love to go back and forth with more official pro's. We have lots of good riders that post, but not many actual Pro Tour guys. We all got your back on this.

DANNY & FROGGY... YOU GUYS STEPPED UP AND TOLD IT.... IT'S YOUR JOB, AND I AM GLAD YOU GUYS EXPLAINED IT! LIKE TOM HANKS SAYS "THERES NO CRYING IN WAKEBOARDING!" THANKS FOR CLEARING THAT UP AND THANKS FOR THE APOLOGY CHRIS.
THIS THREAD WAS BUMMING ME OUT TIL THE TRUTH CAME OUT. MAYBE A BOAT TAPE SHOULD BE KEPT ON FILE FOR ANY CONTROVERSY IN THE FUTURE. ALOHA JOE

This is intense.

I wonder what lessons Nicola (age 17?) is learning by reading this thread?

I'll bet she's learning that her Dad really cares a lot and that he's willing to do anything for her. Give the guy a break.

This is a small industry it probably doesn't take long for people to decide not to work with someone because of the drama their parents create. That's why this is better left in private. I bet you did more harm than good to your daughters cause... But I'm a nobody so what do I know.

OK, How about keeping the thread on track. It's about judging, Not smearing someones name. Let's keep it that way... Should you or should you not change a score after the results have been posted....

If the wrong call was made originally, then yes. It's not like in school when the teacher screws up in your favor and the grade stands; the best rider should be awarded the win. Even if the judges made a mistake, that doesn't change who rode the best and who deserves to win.

Damn Joe, did you have to YELL???????

Tricks are getting so complicated. Seems like riders are throwing more tricks in their pass now. Maybe video replay would be the best way to go. Not hard to film. Take a couple minutes to revue and then make a decision.

Definitely the score system needs to be point blank, number of point per trick, should be no points awarded for a judges personal opinion or interpretation. Personal subjection, opinion and interpretation leave the door open for corruption, sorry that just the facts of life.
Corruption may be too harsh of a word maybe favoritism toward a friend or rider is more adequate.
I missed a 4.0 average in college because a professor subjectively graded me lower on my last semester course assignment because of his dislike for me. Nothing I could do about it.

This thread is hilarious!

If Chirs Butler has an issue with the way the judging format is done then no problem. Voice your concerns and have ways that things can be improved in your opinion.

Chris - I understand if you were heated about the situation which then included what happened to Aaron and Nicola = bad move because you then made it personal but I understand that you are trying to make a relative point to go along with the original topic of the thread and being a parent you can't help but get wrapped up in the emotion.

Everyone else needs to let the comments about Danny and so on die and move on. As I said, Chris didn't make this thread any better by getting a little up set about it and bringing actual people in to this but if he wants to discuss a judging format then let him and stay within the guidelines of a "judging format/ protesting" discussion in a general sense.

Too many people on this site think they know something more then the other. While the ones that do don't even come on here cause they don't care to argue against the BS!

To me it sounds as if the judging format does need to be reviewed or changed.

I'm not even a parent yet and you make my sound like one. (curssing loudly)

are you really whining about posted results being changed? If a rider wants to review the sheets or protest they would have to know the results first! It's kind of tough to protest or review sheets if they don't know the results...

Chris has probably just secured a podium spot...on the pwned tour.

Thanks for the entertainment.

WOW this is the best thread ever.

im saving this one lol its sooooo GOOD (L)

I would be interested to hear what some of the professional riders think about the current competition format and if there are changes to it that the want to have made. It is probably impossible though for them to get on here and talk negatively about the tour, even if it is only suggestions about how to improve it, because of their obligations to their sponsors. Also, how would they feel about having longer passes or even a third pass in comps? Would that put too much of an emphasis on the riders stamina and take away from the intensity of the tricks thrown in runs?

Right on Danny and Phil!

There is instant replay in almost every professional sport, why not wakeboarding?!

Off Topic...
+1 for more professional riders posting. There are a ton of great riders that post here, but would be great to see more pro's posting in a positive light, than negative.

I wouldn't throw all parents in the same boat. Most of the parent's I see on this post have been very positive and are not soccer parents at all. I appreciate their insight. Randy and David and Peyton's mom all had positive remarks and some ideas about change.

I think wakeboarding parents are pretty chill as a rule. You only notice the squeeky wheel but compared to cheerleading, soccer, etc, WB parents are usually all right. By the way- if not for wakeboard parents there probably would not be a wakeboard industry. I bet close to 75% of all wakeboard and boat purchases are by parents for their family.

If they are "professional" athletes, why are their parents so involved?

Is this like a Shadowbox commercial? I mean seriously!

^^^^^so last week when the Niners played the Bronco's, Alex Smith comes out onto the field and the crowd totally starts booing him and talking crap. This lady in a Smith jersey stands up and starts telling everyone around her that they need to cheer for him and not give him a hard time. Some guy a few rows back yelled "what are you his mom or something?", and sure enough, she said yes she was...It can't get any much worse than being an NFL player and having your mom in the stands backing you up when people boo you because you suck.

edit: I stared writing this after Timmy's was the last post so this was meant to me a response to him.

(Message edited by norcalbordr on August 18, 2009)

(Message edited by norcalbordr on August 18, 2009)

Tim, parents are always involved in their childrens lives no matter how old they get. And usually they have a very close relationship with them. If you have'nt noticed most of the pro riders are very young and one way or another deserve to have parents active in their lives. I have 6 kids from the ages of 2 to 20 and believe me they all need their good ol Mom and Dad. Even the oldest.

there was a boxer several years ago whose mom hit his opponent with her high heeled shoe either during the fight, or during the decision. I can't remember which. it was hilarious.

I dont see Chris doing this though! a lot of these pro's are kids still, and having their parents around to keep things in check for them, is still a good idea. I just think the route taken needs to be more thought out.

props to Danny and Phil (not froggy anymore) for stepping up and explaining first hand how it went down.

3 are my step children.

Gosh, this whole thread makes the objective INT format seem dreamy.

professional athletes come in all shapes, sizes and ages. Just because you are a "professional athlete" doesn't make you automatically "grown up". Ryan Leaf, case in point.

^^^Yeah, in theory. But history has proven that in practice, that style of scoring makes the events so boring, you might as well be watching paint dry.

Riders obviously go to contests to win, and so they'll do what they need to do in order to win. Eventually though, they'll end up all doing the same runs made up of the same high scoring tricks. The runs will eventually look identical and the riders that have really distinctive style like Ben Greenwood or Randy Harris will get the short end of the stick because that individuality won't be rewarded as much as an extra 180 or something. Those kind of riders have really seen benefit from the scoring that's in place now, and I would say that the contests as a whole would lose a lot if those riders were discouraged from competing because their strengths aren't worth as much anymore.

Don't get me wrong, there are a handful of riders that will excel in any format (Rathy, Harf, etc...) and the top 5 or even 10 might not even change that much under objective scoring like that. But it will make wakeboarding look incredibly monotonous and boring, especially to people who don't know exactly what they're looking at.

Edit: I type slow; that was in response to BCH

(Message edited by anthemwake on August 18, 2009)

Anthemwake - Isn't that pretty much the way that it is now? Almost every guy throws a Pete, whirly (or whirly 5), TS 7, HS 7, BS 1, glide of some sort, etc. Either format obviously doesn't lend itself to the types of tricks and style you are going to see in free riding.

I feel the riding this year has been levels above what it used to be on the Tour. Blind pete's, TSBS5's, MD 5's, grabbed mobes, 9's. 4-5 Years ago it almost seemed Parks was wasting a trick doing a TSBS grabbed 180, but it was one of the coolest to see

did any of you read Phil Sovens post? do you not see anything wrong with what he said? Its frightening. Mr Soven , have you heard of NASCAR? Professional bodybuilding? in the old days of NASCAR, the drivers and officials tried to work things out. it was a mess. officials missed drivers laps, sometimes on purpose. they missed car violations on some cars and not others. once NASCAR cleaned up their act, and had transponders so there were no missed laps and had tech officials use templates and the like the sport grew.oh, they also allowed the fans to hear the drivers talk to the crew chiefs and NASCAR officials talk to both. Bodybuilding was huge in the 1980s and 1990s . standing room only crowds. i never saw a more corrupt sport in my life. people won because of who they knew, or who trained them, or who they had sponsorships with. i went to a local contest that used to sell out for over 15 years. now only 25% of the seats are sold. why? because people are tired of all the politics and the people deserving to win ending up 2nd or 3rd. until wakeboarding cleans itself up and opens up to the fans it will never grow. what do you mean by inside information the fans should not know? what is this WWE? we pay your salary. we buy tickets to contests and buy products from your sponsors. if we dont show up to contests, if we dont buy products from your sponsors, you are looking for a new way to earn a living. i dont want to take my daughter to a contest where her favorite rider wins only to be told 30 minutes later she came in second. thats BS. it is not acceptable in anything especially not in a professional sport. the system needs to be fixed NOW not LATER.

Yeah, it's like I've always said: if we don't watch it, wakeboarding is going to be just like professional bodybuilding, circa 1985.

I'm so glad that someone else can see such a clear comparison!

sorry it went over your head...

I just read Sovens post again (a good post btw), and still don't understand why you're asking him if he has heard of Nascar or Body Building. Or why you say that you pay his salary riding a Marek and owning an x-star.

The judges missed something. It was pointed out that they missed it, and corrected. That's not corrupt, it negligence. A mistake.

We're officially beating a dead horse.