Stargazer Wake Edition

so who's using it? how you like it? install yourself? if so, how easy?

was looking up PP Wakeboard Pro and see that they have the Stargazer Wake Edition now...

seems like a no-brainer for only a few bucks more than wakeboard pro

so why would you NOT buy the new version? any gotcha's or anything to watch out for?

how about mounting the gps receiver under the dash? the nice PP gal said you can as long as it's pointing up. anybody opt for this? how's that working?

thanks in advance-

I'm not sure about the wakeboard edition but I've been using the PP Pro Stargazer since April and its right on the money - gives almost perfect times everytime, no matter the wind conditions, crew weight, skier weight. I like Practice mode as well - it allows you to adjust speed in .1mph increments whereas the old version you had to adjust using RPMs

Hey Bruce,

We sold this unit to Scott... looks like he likes it.

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/585388.html?1212583690

Yep it's great see the link Ian posted.

Works great after you get the settings correct for heavily weighted boats.

where'd you guys put the gps receiver?

did you mount it under the dash? or up top?

if up top, how'd you rout it up there?

how does it account for tides and the flow of rivers. I have some places I go where the tide may get up to 5 mph.

Kevin: I thought that same thing about tide or river flow.... I have no idea and there's not anything in the documentation about it. I would assume you could float and see how fast it moves you then manually compensate one way then back down going the other. I don't ride on ocean or rivers so I didn't worry.

Bruce: I mounted mine on top of the dash. It's not the best looking thing ever but whatever I'm happy it's there. The instructions say to drill a hole but I used a rat tail file to carve out a round section between where the gauge panel meets the dash it's "squished" through there. I would guess it would work through the dash material but didn't try it.

hmmm, yeah, i'm a little hesitant to drill a hole

thanks for the replies fellas.

i'm hopeful i can find a nice cozy spot up under the dash.

the spot I filed would only be detected if you take the dash apart. its like imagine this:

||
now looks like
|o)

the "o" is the wire
the ) is the fiberglass material covered by the other "|" which is the black rubber dash material.

Not sure how your dash is built but mine has an insert piece which the gauges mount to then screws into the actual compartment where the driver sits.

Can you upgrade the PP Wakeboard pro that comes with the 2008 MC and the VDIG to use the Star Gazer? I would love to switch to the Star gazer.

vision, not sure, but they claim at least some of the wakeboard pro's are upgradeable. i remember seeing it on their site.

not sure about vdig though, that may pose an issue(s)

I bought one this morning and it should be here by the weekend. I don't think I'll get it on right away but I'll tell you what it's like when I run it on the water.

---

quote:

how does it account for tides and the flow of rivers. I have some places I go where the tide may get up to 5 mph.

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I've asked the same question before and haven't gotten any solid answers. I don't think it can compensate for it, or at least I haven't seen any explanation on how it would.

(Message edited by ridininmd on June 09, 2008)

It can't compensate for rivers/ tide. It's GPS based. Sure, on a lake (or in your car) it will provide perfect speed. (GPS is accurate to less than a foot) Problem is, GPS provides PVT (Position, Velocity, Time), but no extra inputs. Aircraft have aiding sensors, which allow them to take into consideration wind, jet stream, etc...., but those receivers are VERY expensive.

... I'm a GPS Engineer.

Ordered my upgrade today!!! I'm excited!

From my understanding it uses GPS and the paddle wheel. I could be wrong though, it has been a while since I got mine.

It works great. Pretty easy install. I put the gps receiver on the dash, but I had an easy way to get it up there. I DO get a black screen every ~4th time I start it up. PP is sending me a unit to fix it supposedly.

Actually, from my understanding it does not use a paddle wheel. It gets its data from the GPS so no need for the paddle wheel. I am pretty positive about this.

yeah, no paddle wheel on the wake edition. that's why they're touting the fact you don't have to drill a hole in your boat for the paddle wheel if you don't have one.

scott, took my dash apart. your post totally makes sense now. thanks.

fitted wake edition on sunday took me 2 hours very easy just plug and play no paddle wheel or holes tried it last night worked perfect fitted to maxum 1800sr3 has changed the boat

I'm not understanding how gps speed control would be affected by tides & current of the water.

I would think that the GPS measures absolute speed (boat speed +/- water speed depending on direction). When the boat starts to travel slower than the target in the perfect pass, GPS detects this, increases motor RPM and all is well.

Can someone please help me understand what I seem to be missing?

(Message edited by andytr32 on June 12, 2008)

Ah, they didnt have the wake edition when I got it. I already had a paddle wheel, so no biggie I guess.

andy, i don't fully understand it, but it has to do with the fact that the gps measures speed accross land, or fixed points, rather than something that is constantly changing; i.e., river current. that's all i got. ;)

Hmm, so were thinking that the additional reference points would be taken on the water surface, I could see how this would cause accuracy problems.

Look at it like the river is a treadmill. You play with your R/C car on the treadmill the r/c car goes 2mph. you set the treadmill to 0.5mph one direction. You drive your r/c car up the treadmill its comparatively going 1.5mph and the other way going 2.5mph. If you had a speedometer in the r/c car it would effectively say 2.0mph because it's calculated based on tire diameter and revolutions per minute on fixed ground. If you take earth based speed it will differ to the on board speed because the earth under it is moving. The concern is the water under the board, skis, or feet feeeeeels faster or slower based on the rate the water flows under the boat. With a paddle wheel the actual speed of the water under the boat is taken and accounted for where with the gps it takes into account the location and speed on the earth.

The master module my perfect pass came with has both inputs for paddle and gps that you could use one or the other or both? I only used the gps sensor. Possibly it can calculate the differences and correct accordingly? I don't for sure know.

Scott, makes sense.

It would be less convoluted if the stargazer didn't use the boats factory speedometer to compare actual to setpoint.

We need the GPS engineer back here. I can't understand why a triangulation of satellites would need a fixed point on the ground as a reference. I'm off to research how GPS works, I'll report back if my dumba** learns anything. Looks like a low productivity day ;)

Okay, so I've just learned that GPS doesn't need a fixed point land reference to calculated location or speed (simply a time measurement between two location calculations).

It seems like the flaw of the stargazer (if it in fact works this way) is that it uses the boat's mechanical speedometer.

A way arround this could be done with software, I believe.
1. A user inputs desired speed and takes off. 2. GPS uses the 3d trilateration to measure location samples and calculates actual boat speed.
3. The calculated speed can now be compared to the stored value and a discrepency can be determined.
4. Stargazer varies engine rpm until setpoint is matched.

3 Problems I can see with this proposal:
1. Could result in constant over/under shooting of setpoint
2. As actual boat speed changes, GPS may not react fast enough (doubtful)
3. Cloud cover or poor signal reception would cause problems but in this case it could default back to the boat speedometer.

I could be totally wrong with all of the above since I have no clue how the stargazer works, however, there has to be a way around the current/tide issue.

(Message edited by andytr32 on June 13, 2008)

(Message edited by andytr32 on June 13, 2008)

I don't understand what is wrong with paddle wheels? Someone please explain this to me. I have sold well over 100 boats with paddle wheels and have never had a problem with one of them. Still have to have a transducer for the depth finder.

(Message edited by Alan-S on June 13, 2008)

If your Perfect Pass does not work perfectly go to your dealer and have it calibrated or read your instruction manual, it is not that hard. The engine controls (KDW, NN, CS) are all adjustable and just because there is a GPS speed sensor does not mean that these things are automatically adjusted.

In my opinion, if you live in a coastal region or have any type of current where you ride, you are screwed with a GPS based system.

For example, the "lake" behind my dealership has a .7-1.2 MPH current. that means that if I set the GPS control to 23 mph. Down the lake my waterspeed is 24 mph and up the lake my waterspeed is 22 mph.

(Message edited by Alan-S on June 13, 2008)

Alan, I avoided putting in the paddle wheel because I could guess that a GPS system was coming. There is nothing wrong with paddle wheel systems. I just felt that the GPS would compensate for turns, rollers, and weight better. Probably more important was that I would not have to install a paddle wheel when I did not have one yet. My depth finder is an in hull. You still have to adjust the KDW but not NS or CS, with the StarGazer systems.
So in my case no one got a chance to sell me a paddle wheel system but my unit can have a paddle wheel added to it if I feel I need it. Where I run the boat there is no significant current so that's not an issue although I could touch the button and add or reduce speed if I go to a spot where there is one.

So, nothing against paddle wheels. For me it was my strong preference to utilize GPS. Now I've got to install mine and see if it does a good job.

Alan,

In most cases... there are no problems with paddlewheel systems... but here have been a few cases with... I know of 3 specific brands... and 1 specific model in each where there have been re-current problems with finding a suitable paddlewheel location... so for those people who have had problems from Day 1 of owning their boat... and had troubles with PP and speed issues... this new StarGazer system may be the answer.

Also, some boat builders chose to use their own paddlewheel and not the one that comes with PP... so some of those were known to have problems...

Also, some of the builders have so many displays demanding signals from the one paddlewheel... speed, temp, etc...

My pal put Stargazer on his ski boat, it uses both the paddle wheel and the GPS and somehow does some error checks between the two. It is awesome. Rock solid speed control and doesn't speed up or slow down in turns.

I don't see why not use it unless you're on ebbs and flows tidal or otherwise. I am sure the engineers at perfect pass are more than aware of the limitations and have means to circumvent it's shortcomings. I am a customer and an advocate for it. It's a revolutionary turn in the technology of our sport and I am happy to support such advances.

Do you have to install a paddle wheel if you have an older boat without paddle wheel speedo (air guide)? Does it work independently of your boat speedo?

no. My boat has a paddle wheel for the factory speedo but I didn't even get the cable to hook into it. My perfect pass is 100% gps. Yes the gps is 100% independent to the boat's speedometer in the dash.

(Message edited by w00taz on June 13, 2008)

So I fail to see how the tides could affect it, surely there is a way around it unless the system already compensates and this isn't an issue.

Andy, take this scenario. You are sitting in your boat with the engine off and the tide is running @ 5mph: According to a paddle wheel your speed will be zero because you are not moving relative to the water. According to the GPS your speed will be 5mph because thats your speed relative to the land.

Which speed is correct for wakeboarding purposes?

GPS Engineer, checking in..... Ok, someone above gave the treadmill analogy, which was correct. I'll try to explain it a little different.

If you are in your car, and have GPS integrated with your cruise control, it will provide perfect speed. Because land doesn't move. You want to go 75 mph, it will hold that speed exactly. Same with a lake, that doesn't have a current, it will hold an exact speed.

Now, lets move to a river. You have a current going North to South at 5 mph. If you have your cruise control set for 22 mph (using GPS) it will give you 22 mph (land speed) Now, in the Southbound direction you will be going 17 mph in relation to the surrounding water. When going North, you will be going 27 in relation to the surrounding water. So, going South, you will have a washed out wake, that you can barely ride, and Northbound, you will be riding like a "bat-outta-hell" (Meatloaf).

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, I understand all the analogies and how it can affect cruise control but I don't understand how the stargazer/gps unit works. It either has to:

A: Work in conjunction w/ a paddle wheel or other mechanical speedometer on boat (someone mentioned above that this is not true).

B: Reference a fixed object on the ground to calculate what was referenced as "ground speed" but now that I think about it, that shouldn't matter either. Referencing a fixed point may actually help the situation.

I'm thinking there is an easy fix to this solution. Here is how I see the situation in my head: GPS uses 3-4 satellites to measure location. GPS re-calculates new position and determines distance between last measurement over elapsed time. You should have accurate speed regardless of how much the river is pushing or pulling you. Basically, the way I see it, is you have 3-4 satellites referencing the receiver that is in the boat. So as far as GPS knows, tide affects the boat just as much as increasing or decreasing the throttle does. Maybe there is still something about GPS that I am missing?

Has anyone actually been affected significantly by using gps speed control in tides?

(Message edited by andytr32 on June 16, 2008)

Andy, you are right that the GPS determines the exact location of your boat, and it calculates the speed based upon the change it its position with relation to time. If you let the boat drift with the tide or current it would tell you the speed of the current even if the boat was in neutral.
When it sets the speed, in the Wake Edition Stargazer, it sets it relative to the earth so your boat speed is not your speed over water, if the water is moving. The concern some have is that the wake characteristics and boarding are affected most by the speed of the boat relative to the water.

Right, makes a little bit more sense now. It appears that GPS calculates Ground Speed only and will need a compensation method to accommodate earth/other surface movements. I still don't understand why GPS has to work in this manner but I've just accepted that it does.

Wow, you guys have really beat this subject to death. Here are some answers for you. Version 7.04 and older is a hybrid system that uses both a paddlewheel and GPS. It calibrates the paddlewheel 5 times a second and uses the paddlewheel reading to control the boat. Version 7.05 (which is the Wake Edition and the 3-Event StarGazer) uses GPS ONLY, and ignores the paddlewheel input. As someone mentioned.. "What is wrong with the paddlewheel", which is a good question, because if your paddlewheel works good, then you really are not going to notice much difference other then in corners, and it gives you the advantage of having a fall back if the GPS every stops reading. However as someone had mentioned if you don't have a paddlewheel already in your boat or the one you have may or may not be in a good location, then using a GPS only is a way simplier way to go.

Now lets consider the tide and river current question. As you can see if the GPS is calibrating the paddlewheel based on ground speed, it will quickly recalibrate the paddlewheel to ground speed in either direction you are travelling in the current, hense both versions will work the same in a current (they will control to the ground speed as you guys have already quite clearly explained above). However you could, if you had a version 7.04 unplug the GPS after it has calibrated the paddlewheel, then it would use the surface speed read by the paddlewheel only.

Great to see all feedback on the new product everyone.

Aaron

Hey Aaron. I have one last question on this. I'm almost positive I have a paddle wheel, but if you order the Stargazer Wake Edition and then decide to add the paddle wheel cable later can you do so? If so how much is that additional cable?

Hey Bruce,

This is where it gets tricky. If you order the Wake Edition model you CAN NOT add a paddlewheel to it. (Well i guess you could it just won't do anything other then read water temperature.)

This is also true for newest StarGazer software. If you think you want to use your paddlewheel you need to connect it and order version 7.04 which is only avaliable in the StarGazer model(3-event plus Wakeboard and RPM).

The idea being, there is no need for a paddlewheel so why would you want to. I do understand everyones concern about river current, and tides and how a paddlewheel may be better in this scenario. Does anyone have any feedback on how the Wake Edition model feels in a river current?

Aaron

(Message edited by perfectpass_pro on June 17, 2008)

If someone needs the 6.5 edition with paddlewheel... i will sell them my used one....

arron, so you can't add it even if you already have the factory mc paddle wheel?

it just seemed silly to me to buy the 3 event since we only wakeboard and simple slalom.

i can let you know in august after our houseboat trip on the columbia.

i'm not that worried about it, was just wondering if i could add it in case it did feel like there was a big difference on the river.

Ok ill throw in my 2 cents...paddle wheel is fine..the only problem is setting the kdw and nn factors to keep it a very consistant speed. gps is suppose to take care of that..if you are on a lake or somewhere with no current. but for those of you making a big deal about how it works in a river with current...to me that's when the rider would just tell the driver to speed up or slow down just a tad...or is that too easy of a concept?

Aaron, is there outputs from the Std PP to drive a plate like the supra smart plate system does?

haha,, you guys have lots of questions don't ya.. i don't mind ask away

Bruce: You can buy the 7.04 version without a Smart Timer for the same price as a Wake Edition. The cost difference in the 2 systems (StarGazer 3-Event vs. Wake Edition)is due to the Smart Timer, other then that they are the same.

sippi: well actually you still have a KdW setting for the StarGazer systems as well. This setting is to give people the ability to really tweek their system in to their boat, and the way they want it to feel. (imagine the up roar if we eliminated it, and someone called and said they didn't like the way it felt, there would be nothing they could do). We could probably start a whole thread on that topic.

Darren: No, there is no hardware in a standard PP box to run a WakePlate. However that may happen in the future, if the demand is out there.

Aaron

I'm part of the demand for it Aaron.

i just installed wakeboard stargazer PP on a 95 mastercraft. easy to do and worked like a champ. you take out old spedo install pp gauge in its place wire it up and your done. if your thinking about getting a pp sys. this is the one you want.

Sometimes when I hit large rolling wakes from very large boats. My perfect pass pro "surges" because the paddle wheel must come out of the water. Would Stargazer eliminate this? Also, I have had moments of paddle wheel failure. Would this also be overcome with an upgrade?

One thing I don't understand is that my paddle wheel performs great in salt water. When I relocate to fresh water, the paddle wheel becomes sporatic. It spins freely and I don't have excessive hours, any answers?

By the way, I do love and cannot live without Perfect Pass.

Just finished the install which was an upgrade from my 6.5n version to the new StarGazer Wakeboard Edition... OH MY!!!! It is perfect!!! Pulls so smoothly!!!

I am on a lake... and I can see what challenges people may have with currents etc...

Mine was perfect... but when the picked up... and we cruised back to the launch... I noticed up to 2-3 mph difference from the GPS speed and the paddlewheel speed on the other speedometer...

I would say if you are in a river then you can still use StarGazer... just simple adjust your speed accordingly...

hamkj,

Do you have a current in your lake (yes, some do)?

If not, that speed difference is the speedo error.

Sorry... forgot to mention.... on the way back it was windy... so i was playing around to see what PP said vs the paddlewheel speedo... into and with the current...

i can finally reply.

lake tested

mine rocks

water tested friday night. perfect.

rode saturday morning. flawless.

got my water temp!

stoked!

:guitar:

I don't get water temp on mine.. because my Faria Pilot 1 takes the water temp from the paddlewheel... and I guess I am not suppose to pigtail off of that to the PP for temp... wont work...

I wish the little Lake Temp could toggle to a clock instead... oh well... no big deal...

Love the tight turns.. or big turns for a double up... no more playing with throttle to keep speed!

yeah it was the magical mc white wiring harness behind the kick panel for me. i had dual speedos. no pp or cruise. i lucked out. i already had the paddle wheel. it was all there. lucked out really.