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Old     (UNvisible)      Join Date: May 2010       03-07-2011, 7:55 PM Reply   
Well?

Trying to decide what sub amps to go with this year, and one thing i'd really like to consider is RMS at lower voltage.... I rarely bump hard with the engine running. I'll be running two Trojan T125's, I should have plenty of reserves. I had 3 Alpine PDX1000's last year, and they were great for running cool, but lacked punch when the batts got low.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-07-2011, 8:03 PM Reply   
Hell no the rms ratings are at 14.4v. So no better than your alpines in that regard.
Old     (UNvisible)      Join Date: May 2010       03-07-2011, 8:23 PM Reply   
Then what is a comparable amp to the JL 1000/1 ? It produces 1000w rms @ 2ohms down to 11.4v .... Is that the only choice (i'm not opposed to JL, my first setup was a couple JL slash series.)
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-07-2011, 9:15 PM Reply   
I don't know of any other Regulated amps that are very popular other than JL. You know regulated amps have their issues too. When you get down to around 11 volts those things will pull juice like a freight train, that's the last thing you want. I'd rather have an unregulated amp that dials back the power when juice starts running low, not pulls more and more power to make up the rated power it's supposed to deliver. Kinda sounds counterintuitive for boat audio to me.

Sounds like you need more battery capacity to me. Just two 6v batteries at 225 amp hours isn't going to get you very far. Might want to think about adding another set and try to avoid getting that low on voltage.
Old     (pdqwrx)      Join Date: Jul 2007       03-08-2011, 12:14 AM Reply   
You should search "Chucktronics" and check out some of his installs. He sells TONS or ARC and Wetsounds and has some creative battery solutions. NuBu is correct about the JL. The 1000/1 is an awesome amp but is not really geard for the marine application. Thats why JL never did a marine series slash amp...The regulated powersupplies don't like drooping battery voltage. Also, a static 11 volts in a 12 volt system is a dead battery (Or bank). The JL Slash might still play but not much else will.
Old     (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-08-2011, 6:52 AM Reply   
The best source of information would be to give the Arc Audio guys a call in Modesto, CA.

The phone number is on their website and it is never more than a 15 second wait to get one of the guy's on the phone. They will shoot you straight with the good and the bad of that amp.
Old     (heath)      Join Date: Feb 2008       03-08-2011, 7:30 AM Reply   
You should look at the JL MHD750.1. These are a full range class D amplifier. I believe they are still regulated but draw much less current due to their new switching cycle technology. They will not be a rough on your electrical system and still produce plenty of power and 11V.

Don't let the power rating scare you. Its plenty as reviews say these are under rated.

I have one 750.1 driving two JL10W6v2's and they sound incredible. This along with a JL MHD600.4 for the interiors, a JL 250.1 for another 10W5 sub and an ARC 300.2 for the towers don't over kill on my two blue top optimas. Thats almost 2000 watts but all effecient amps.
Old     (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-08-2011, 7:44 AM Reply   
I think that JL is coming out with an even bigger sub amp in the HD line.

They are awesome amps
Old     (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       03-08-2011, 8:05 AM Reply   
We're totally missing the real intentions of amplifiers with strictly regulated power supplies. Yes, part of the benefit is more power at a lower voltage. An amplifier might be rated at 14.4 volts. But at 12.6 or 12.7 volts, when you shut down the engine and before any further reduction in voltage, you may lose nearly 25 percent of the rated power. And, that power reduction continues as the voltage drops.
An amplifier with a strictly regulated power supply will offset low voltage by drawing more current in order to maintain the same power. A one volt loss could mean a .08 (less than 10 percent) increase in current draw which is hardly an issue as compared to running Class AB amplifiers. Comparatively we could be looking at a 60 percent difference in efficiency with a Class D or nearly that level of improvement with a Class G/H. So in reality how much of an efficiency issue is regulated?
On the other hand we have no business running the batteries down to 11 volts. Its murder on the batteries, even deep cycle batteries. In this case you need more or larger batteries to minimize the cycle depth.
The real benefit of a strictly regulated power supply is sound quality! A strictly regulated power supply means better damping and lower distortion, just for starters, over a wider range of supply voltages. As the voltage widely fluctuates individual components fall out of tolerance. This impacts every stage of an amplifier and sound quality suffers in an unregulated amplifier. A strictly regulated amplifier allows all components to operate optimumly.
I don't want to make too much of an issue over this as its still an open boat and a 25 percent reduction in power may only represent a 1 dB difference. But strict regulation is more about sound quality. Its very expensive. Not every manufacture can do it.

David
Earmark Marine
Old     (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       03-08-2011, 8:09 AM Reply   
Yes, the new JL Audio HD1200/1 strictly regulated, highly efficient Class D amplifier will ship this month.

David
Earmark Marine
Old     (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-08-2011, 8:15 AM Reply   
David is right on the money. Regulated is always best. Stick with that and then try solving your real issue. How do you maintain at least 12.5 volts for the entire duration of when you crank it up? More batteries, bigger alternator. Put your money there and you'll be happy.
Old     (UNvisible)      Join Date: May 2010       03-08-2011, 8:50 AM Reply   
I cant find any info on the HD1200/1 David. Do you have any you can post? Sounds like that's the amp I need. Two 1200/1 for two WetSounds XXX's, and a couple HD600/4's for my WS 485's and interior JL's.
Old     (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-08-2011, 8:52 AM Reply   
Google is a beautiful thing!!

HD1200/1
In 2008, everyone was amazed by the watts per cubic inch offered by the HD750/1 monoblock. This year, we will “up the ante” even further with the introduction of its 1200W “evil twin”, which happens to share exactly the same chassis as its 750W sibling. This just might be the most clean power per cubic inch ever put into a car amplifier, and it's all possible thanks to the outstanding efficiency of Single Cycle Control™ technology.

With frequency response that extends smoothly into treble range, the HD1200/1 will be used in many creative ways by adventurous users, but its primary mission in life is to drive subwoofers, so its feature set has been optimized for that purpose. It features a variable slope crossover, infrasonic filter, polarity reversal switch, remote level control port and preamp outputs.
Suddenly, huge subwoofer power can be installed almost anywhere.

HD1200/1 - 1200 Watt Monoblock
Type: Class D, Monoblock Subwoofer Amplifier
Continuous Power:
1200W x 1 @ 1.5 - 4 ohms
(11.0V-14.5V supply with <0.08% THD+N)
Dimensions (L x W x H):
10.74 x 8.29 x 1.93 in.
(273 x 211 x 49 mm)
(Width Measurement Includes Plugs)
Available: 4th Quarter, 2010
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-08-2011, 9:05 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by david_e_m View Post
We're totally missing the real intentions of amplifiers with strictly regulated power supplies. Yes, part of the benefit is more power at a lower voltage. An amplifier might be rated at 14.4 volts. But at 12.6 or 12.7 volts, when you shut down the engine and before any further reduction in voltage, you may lose nearly 25 percent of the rated power. And, that power reduction continues as the voltage drops.
An amplifier with a strictly regulated power supply will offset low voltage by drawing more current in order to maintain the same power. A one volt loss could mean a .08 (less than 10 percent) increase in current draw which is hardly an issue as compared to running Class AB amplifiers. Comparatively we could be looking at a 60 percent difference in efficiency with a Class D or nearly that level of improvement with a Class G/H. So in reality how much of an efficiency issue is regulated?
On the other hand we have no business running the batteries down to 11 volts. Its murder on the batteries, even deep cycle batteries. In this case you need more or larger batteries to minimize the cycle depth.
The real benefit of a strictly regulated power supply is sound quality! A strictly regulated power supply means better damping and lower distortion, just for starters, over a wider range of supply voltages. As the voltage widely fluctuates individual components fall out of tolerance. This impacts every stage of an amplifier and sound quality suffers in an unregulated amplifier. A strictly regulated amplifier allows all components to operate optimumly.
I don't want to make too much of an issue over this as its still an open boat and a 25 percent reduction in power may only represent a 1 dB difference. But strict regulation is more about sound quality. Its very expensive. Not every manufacture can do it.

David
Earmark Marine
Wow all this time I thought we were talking about the OP's question about a sub amp. So I guess I totally missed the point, sound quality on a sub amp I guess it's possible hmmmm.
Old     (UNvisible)      Join Date: May 2010       03-08-2011, 9:06 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphy_smith View Post
Google is a beautiful thing!!

HD1200/1
In 2008, everyone was amazed by the watts per cubic inch offered by the HD750/1 monoblock. This year, we will “up the ante” even further with the introduction of its 1200W “evil twin”, which happens to share exactly the same chassis as its 750W sibling. This just might be the most clean power per cubic inch ever put into a car amplifier, and it's all possible thanks to the outstanding efficiency of Single Cycle Control™ technology.

With frequency response that extends smoothly into treble range, the HD1200/1 will be used in many creative ways by adventurous users, but its primary mission in life is to drive subwoofers, so its feature set has been optimized for that purpose. It features a variable slope crossover, infrasonic filter, polarity reversal switch, remote level control port and preamp outputs.
Suddenly, huge subwoofer power can be installed almost anywhere.

HD1200/1 - 1200 Watt Monoblock
Type: Class D, Monoblock Subwoofer Amplifier
Continuous Power:
1200W x 1 @ 1.5 - 4 ohms
(11.0V-14.5V supply with <0.08% THD+N)
Dimensions (L x W x H):
10.74 x 8.29 x 1.93 in.
(273 x 211 x 49 mm)
(Width Measurement Includes Plugs)
Available: 4th Quarter, 2010
I google'd..

Sounds like a bad sumbitch. I'll take two!
Old     (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-08-2011, 9:16 AM Reply   
I am in love with the 900/5. We are getting ready to buy a new Tahoe or Yukon and I would really like to put one of those in there.
Old     (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       03-08-2011, 9:17 AM Reply   
Yep, sound quality is very much at play in a sub...more if you have a sound quality sub. Just like the OP said, he noticed a distinct change in tone as the bass got thinner at lower voltages. I've heard the same countless times.

David
Earmark Marine
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-08-2011, 9:37 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by david_e_m View Post
Yep, sound quality is very much at play in a sub...more if you have a sound quality sub. Just like the OP said, he noticed a distinct change in tone as the bass got thinner at lower voltages. I've heard the same countless times.

David
Earmark Marine
Ok so I'll summarize your comments now. Only regulated amps will sound good, so WS, Arc, Exile, etc.. are far inferior in sound quality and performance and you're not getting the power you pay for anyways. Nobody should look to go with any amps that are not regulated JL audio amps because they won't be getting good performance or the rated power.

Thanks for the clarrification dave. Sure wish I could dig up some of the old sound quality in boat audio debates you've chimed into in the past. Wouldn't that be a hoot.

Edit: I should note I've used regulated JL amps forever up until last year. I don't think I'm missing anything by going with a different brand.

Last edited by 05mobiuslsv; 03-08-2011 at 9:41 AM.
Old     (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       03-08-2011, 10:10 AM Reply   
Now, now, now, there's no need to have an estrogen attack.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-08-2011, 10:15 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by david_e_m View Post
Now, now, now, there's no need to have an estrogen attack.
Hahaha that's a good one, I'll have to remember that one .
Old     (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       03-08-2011, 10:17 AM Reply   
I prefer "Don't get your panties in a bunch"
Old     (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       03-08-2011, 10:43 AM Reply   
Just to put the discussion in context....I didn't introduce strictly regulated or JL Audio into the discussion. Others did. I was only setting the record straight about regulated amplifiers and adding a little perspective as I see it. There are no direct brand comparisons being made and there is no doubt in my mind that anyone else saw this as derogatory towards another brand of amplifier. We use unregulated amplifiers daily.

David
Earmark Marine
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-08-2011, 11:06 AM Reply   
Your perspective stated that an unregulated amp won't sound good when the voltage starts to sag. Interesting perspective indeed.
Old     (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       03-08-2011, 11:11 AM Reply   
Stir, stir, stir. Nobody is buying it and you can't sell it.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-08-2011, 11:14 AM Reply   
You said it not me.
Old     (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       03-08-2011, 6:33 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05mobiuslsv View Post
Your perspective stated that an unregulated amp won't sound good when the voltage starts to sag. Interesting perspective indeed.
Explain how it does not make sense. Surely unregulated amps will lose punch as the voltage drops, thus affecting the sound quality. In a boat atmosphere, 98% of us probably would not notice it, but there are a few who do.
Old     (wetsounds1)      Join Date: Jan 2006       03-09-2011, 9:26 AM Reply   
Just thought I would add to this thread. The SYN-1 and the Arc KS 1000.1 ARE regulated amps. (our SYN-6 is as well)

Tim
Wet Sounds
Old     (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-09-2011, 9:35 AM Reply   
What does regulated mean and what does unregulated mean?

Never got that far in amp 101 class
Old     (UNvisible)      Join Date: May 2010       03-09-2011, 11:20 AM Reply   
I'm going with wet sounds. Two Syn 1's and a Syn 2 and a Syn 4.
Old     (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-09-2011, 12:38 PM Reply   
Murphy, I’ll make it simple.

An amplifier is just a bunch of transistors. Transistors are like a wall switch. There’s a bunch-o-power waiting on one end, you flip the switch with a little power, and it lets the bunch-o-power thru to your speakers.

So, if the bunch-o-power starts running out, then obviously your speakers get less of it.

In a regulated amp, they throw in some big capacitors to make up for the missing power. A capacitor is basically an energy storage container.

Now, why make unregulated amps? They're cheaper to build and more efficient. And the lack of circuitry can make them cleaner. So, if you like to crank it with the engine running, and your alternator can keep up, then an unregulated amp is a good choice. If you crank it with the engine off, regulated is a better choice.

Sub amps that don't get enough power sound like total crap. And most average folks will notice, even in a boating environment.

Also, realize that most speakers blow because of lack of power, not too much power.
Old     (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       03-09-2011, 12:46 PM Reply   
Murphy,
I can answer that.
Every contemporary amplifier has two distinct sections. One is the power supply and one is the output or audio amplifier. They are independent. While Ohm's Law may apply to the audio amplifier to some degree (in theory power doubles as you halve the resistance) it doesn't translate to the power supply. The power supply has so much wattage period to supply the audio amplifier section with. So as you lower the speaker impedance you will get more power but at some point as you exhaust the power supply the big increases will start compressing. There's no free ride.
So regulated and unregulated pertain to the power supply side of the amplifier.
The primary job of a power supply is to increase voltage as your amplifier would be limited in power with 12 volts. A power supply takes the DC and switches it to a super high frequency AC pulse via a clock and high speed transistors (electronic valves). That AC pulse can be narrowed or widened according to the demands placed on the amplifier. The AC is then rectified and filtered back to DC but at a much higher voltage...a much more efficient operating voltage.
An unregulated amplifier will increase in power at high supply voltages and decrease in power at low supply voltages. The varying supply voltage will affect the power supply output delivered to the audio section and therefore affect the audio section power output to the speakers. An output transistor, an electrical valve of sorts, has three legs. 1) the audio signal gain which you control via the volume. 2) the voltage supply. 3) the output to the speakers. If either the gain or voltage leg changes then so does the output leg. Its like a hose and a nozzle. Water coming in as the voltage supply leg. The nozzle as the the audio gain. The water exiting the hose as the output leg to the speakers.
Regulated can mean several things and will diifer by manufacturer. First, some will have a microprocessor controlled power supply that alters the voltage that is supplied to the audio amplifier section so that the output transistors are always operating in a safe and stable range. As the output load impedance is lowered the power supply voltage is lowered also so that the resulting output is essentially the same or at least similar. The other means of regulation is when the supply voltage from your charging/battery system changes then the power supply makes adjustments to offset the change so that the supply to the audio amplifier section is always consistent. When supply voltage drops the power supply draws more amperage and when the supply voltage increases the power supply draws less amperage. This way the audio output section always receives the same voltage. And the electronic components in the signal path always operate within tolerance and within their ideal range.

David
Earmark Marine
Old     (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       03-09-2011, 1:14 PM Reply   
Tuneman,
A couple of things to consider.
Capacitors can only stiffen voltage momentarily and therefore smooth out voltage ripple or spikes. But they can't increase voltage in any way or form. A capacitor can be an equal and essential component in a regualted or unregulated amplifier. It is the management of the power supply rail voltage that will generally differentiate regulated versus unregulated amplifiers. The power supply functions are an independent section and are not in the signal path although the power supply will impact the audio section based on the voltage supply.
Electrical speaker failure is primarily due to the thermal capacity being surpasses for a long enough duration. A speaker cannot differientiate betwwen a clean and distorted signal. Only the continuous power level matters. However, as an amplifier is overdriven it begins to compress the signal and as a result the continuous power increases as compared to the peak power. The speaker is simply operating at higher power levels for a longer duration of the waveform and has no time to dissipate the heat. Many people think that as an amplifier distorts it puts out DC. While a severely clipped waveform may level off and somewhat resemble a DC waveform there is no DC component inherent in AC. Even inordinate peaks rarely tickle the thermal capacity of a speaker but highly compressed or high continuous power is what damages a speaker. In the end the damage is just a function of power. The more power the greater the risk. There is no more risk of damage by underpowering but just a higher liklihood of distortion. Two different things.

David
Earmark Marine
Old     (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-09-2011, 1:24 PM Reply   
That's exactly what I said I just took the excessively simple route.
Old     (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       03-09-2011, 5:27 PM Reply   
I rock unregulated power supplies and just drink more as the day goes on. By the time the music starts sounding like "crap" I'm to tuned up to notice it.
Old     (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-09-2011, 5:44 PM Reply   
Hate - Don't you have 2 Lifeline 8d's....you should never get that low with all that battery power.

So my amps the Arc's are unregulated - I never liked being regulated anyway.
Old     (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       03-09-2011, 8:26 PM Reply   
That's just the man trying to keep you down! Yeah its pretty tough to burn through my reserve.
Old     (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       03-09-2011, 9:30 PM Reply   
REGULATORS!!!!!!!! mount up


but seriously, I was wondering the same thing. My amp will put out 1350w @ 1ohm or 850ish @ 2ohm. I was going to get a sub that is rated at 1500rms and run the amp at 1ohm, but now I'm thinking getting a sub rated for 1000rms would be the better option....
Old     (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-10-2011, 7:42 AM Reply   
Ben -

I would be concerned about how the amp was rated. If the amp put's out 1350 watts @ 1ohm at 14.4v that means that your engine will need to be running to produce that number.

Most batteries resting voltage is in the upper 12v so you can see where I am going. At 12.7 volts the amp may not kick out that full 1350 watts.

As a rule of thumb - it is always better to have more amp than needed.

Another thought would be to concentrate on the type of enclosure you are using. A properly built and properly tuned enclosure and amp can certainly sound like more than what it actually being put out.

I am definitely no expert when it comes to this stuff so you may want consult other sources as well.
Old     (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-10-2011, 7:54 AM Reply   
I did some more research - and I think it confirms that each amp mfgr is different in how they rate the stuff. Based on the numbers below, I think that Arc is fairly conservative in their approach.

For example: I have an Arc Audio KS 300.2 and the advertised specs are
180x2 at 4 ohms
350x2 at 2 ohms
700x1 at 4ohms

Actual measured power by a unrelated third party was:
167x2 at 4ohms at 12.6 volts
274x2 at 2 ohms at 12.6 volts
557x1 at 4 ohms at 12.6 volts

222x2 at 4ohms at 14.4 volts
364x2 at 2 ohms at 14.4 volts
736x1 at 4 ohms at 14.4 volts
Old     (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       03-10-2011, 8:58 AM Reply   
Murphy,
You are so right about the specmanship of various brands. Is it at 12.5 or 14.4 volts? Is it at 50 Hz or 1 kHz? Is it unqualified dynamic power or real continuous power? Is it WLS (when lightning strikes) or JBF (just before fire)? And you have to take amplifier efficiency into the equation. The higher the efficiency, the higher the voltage reserves will be at any point in time and the higher the actual power will be.

And why have the additional power when you're giving it right back in poor system design, whether it is in the sub/enclosure selection or system tuning?

When it comes to woofer power handling...these can be the most meaningless specs of all. Copper voice coils are copper voice coils. No one has a secret alloy. There's only so many bobbin or former materials, whether Kapton or aluminum, and only so many ways to vent a voice coil. Ever wonder how you significantly increase a woofer's thermal capacity? One way is a larger gauge voice coil winding. A larger gauge means lower resistance and a longer winding in order to maintain the same impedance. This means more moving mass and more required power to drive. More amplifier power becomes essential resulting in a more rapid decline in voltage. It can also make for a clumsy and indiscriminate sounding woofer. Huge magnets and huge power handling specs do not necessarily mean a superior woofer. All woofers producers do is move around the priorities. For example, you have a trio of performance parameters, whether bass extension, efficiency or power handling. You can excced in two of the three but it always comes at the cost of another parameter. There is no free ride. So take those power handling specs with a boulder of salt.

No one regulates these specs so manufacturers are free to publish whatever they want up to the level of plausibilty and sometimes well beyond. And the print media is dead for the most part so independent test reviews are few and far between in order to keep the specs honest. Consumers don't generally understand the qualifications that must be attached to make specs genuine.

It is nice to see when a manufacturer exceeds its specs like the Arc Audio...which is a nice reflection on WetSounds btw.

David
Earmark Marine

Last edited by david_e_m; 03-10-2011 at 9:02 AM.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-10-2011, 10:25 AM Reply   
It would be nice to see a head to head comparison under the same conditions for all the popular brands used in boat audio, all done by a third party. Now that would be a party!
Old     (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       03-10-2011, 11:16 AM Reply   
Sorry for the hi-jack...

Quote:
Originally Posted by murphy_smith View Post
I am definitely no expert when it comes to this stuff so you may want consult other sources as well.
Well you certainly know more than I do, but more importantly, your post are easy to understand and not loaded down with audio technical terminology that the average person wouldn't understand.

I really didn't consider that amps are rated at 14.4v volts. I'm curious what the X1200.1's output would be on 12.8v at 1 ohm and 2 ohm. I read a post from Morgan (who I don't think works for Exile anymore) on the Exile forum. Below is his response to a question about actual output of the X1200.1.

"X1200.1 bench out about 1350 watts, but I have seen units in the 1400 watt range... With square wave, burpabble SPL power around 1600 watts or so... Bench power is 1 ohm, 1%THD and 14.4 VDC..."

I've done extensive research on sub options. I finally decided on Sundown. They have an excellent pricepoint, and everything I've read about them has been phenomenal. I was looking at the 12" Z v.2 (1500w RMS) or the SA-12 (600w RMS). From my gathering, Jacob from Sundown rates power handeling extremely low. Most people run 1000w RMS to the SA-12's daily with great results.

So really, I just need to figure out what the output on my amp at 12.8 is, and if I should get a D2 or D4 sub...
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-10-2011, 11:28 AM Reply   
Do a dual 2 ohm sub so you get the most out of that amp. Don't they have anything in between those two subs for power handling?
Old     (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       03-10-2011, 11:43 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05mobiuslsv View Post
Do a dual 2 ohm sub so you get the most out of that amp. Don't they have anything in between those two subs for power handling?
They're developing a new sub, I think it's going to be called the X-12 which is rated at 1000w RMS, but I want a sub by May and it won't be out by then.

And I have a design for the box. 1.75 cubic ft ported and tuned to 31hz.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-10-2011, 11:47 AM Reply   
Go with that higher power handling sub then, you'll have room to grow. 31hz is pretty low to tune a sub in a boat might want to revisit that.
Old     (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       03-10-2011, 12:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05mobiuslsv View Post
Go with that higher power handling sub then, you'll have room to grow. 31hz is pretty low to tune a sub in a boat might want to revisit that.
Really? I don't know too much about that stuff. All I know is the design I have says 1.75 @ 31hz 21.8 sq inch of port. I plan to have the sub face the back wall or the hull under the driver console. What should it be tuned to?
Old     (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       03-10-2011, 12:03 PM Reply   
Ah c'mon get a Nightshade! Bendow, check out DC audio labs and maybe Sound Solutions Audio, they make some pretty bad ass subs too.
Old     (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       03-10-2011, 12:26 PM Reply   
bendow,
An unregulated amplifier will generally drop over 20 percent but less than 25 percent when going from 14.4 volts to 12.7 volts which is what a good, normal and fully charged battery is while at rest, just a bit higher on an AGM battery. That's not an absolute. The drop-off may be less at a higher impedance but more severe at a lower impedance. Btw, it would be better to run a larger amplifier at a little higher load so you have a little more headroom. Something else to consider is the frequency used in the testing. If its 1 kHz then you may lose 15 percent of the maximum power at 50 Hz.
It will take a 25 percent drop in power in order to lose 1 DB of output which is the lowest amount that you could discern. The real audible concern is what the OP was referring to which is less about an output reduction and more about a bandwidth reduction and dynamic compression as the supply drops. The best way to avoid this is to run the amplifier a bit more conservatively and to keep up the voltage.
I'm not aware of any steadfast rule about a subwoofer tuning frequency, higher or lower, that is best for a open boat. But if there is any data on this I would really be interested. Each woofer is going to tune in a bass-reflex or other type enclosure according to its individual parameters and the listening style of the owner. Do you want deep bass extension and a smoother well-damped response or do you want the highest SPL with a peaky response. That's your call in cordinating with the woofer of your choice.

David
Earmark Marine
Old     (wetsounds1)      Join Date: Jan 2006       03-10-2011, 12:39 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05mobiuslsv View Post
It would be nice to see a head to head comparison under the same conditions for all the popular brands used in boat audio, all done by a third party. Now that would be a party!
We are down! I would love to do a 3rd party test. Would like to do tower speakers too. 1w/1m tests and 80 foot spl tests, off axis tests, etc

We could line up what tests to run and coordinate it. 3rd party would do tests and publish the results.

We would have to find a 3rd party testing company that could do the tests. And also what parameters to test.

Let me know!

Tim
Wet Sounds
Old     (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       03-10-2011, 1:29 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatepain View Post
Ah c'mon get a Nightshade! Bendow, check out DC audio labs and maybe Sound Solutions Audio, they make some pretty bad ass subs too.
ok...and then I can tow my boat to SPL competitions! lol. I've checked out SSA and DC, along with Incriminator Audio, RE, Digital Designs, Treo, Fi, Aq, Atomic, etc, etc. From everything I read on Car Audio forums the Sundown appeared to be the favorite. One thing I learned is that a lot of people on Car Audio forums have very poor grammar.
Old     (UNvisible)      Join Date: May 2010       03-10-2011, 3:25 PM Reply   
Wow the sundown audio website is about as useful as lemonparty.org.......

dont go to lemonparty.org if you dont understand the reference.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-10-2011, 4:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wetsounds1 View Post
We are down! I would love to do a 3rd party test. Would like to do tower speakers too. 1w/1m tests and 80 foot spl tests, off axis tests, etc

We could line up what tests to run and coordinate it. 3rd party would do tests and publish the results.

We would have to find a 3rd party testing company that could do the tests. And also what parameters to test.

Let me know!

Tim
Wet Sounds
Sounds like too much involvement by a manufacturer to me. I was thinking someone totally removed from it all to do the whole thing. Unfortunately something like that would probably happen. Too bad.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-10-2011, 4:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bendow View Post
Really? I don't know too much about that stuff. All I know is the design I have says 1.75 @ 31hz 21.8 sq inch of port. I plan to have the sub face the back wall or the hull under the driver console. What should it be tuned to?
I'd be shooting for something in the 35-40 hz range. As low as you are planning will be kind of a waste, that frequency range bass is nearly unuseable to you in your boat. With what you described as your goals I'd go higher.
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-10-2011, 4:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05mobiuslsv View Post
Sounds like too much involvement by a manufacturer to me. I was thinking someone totally removed from it all to do the whole thing. Unfortunately something like that would probably happen. Too bad.
So the suggested 3rd party not good enough for you? Whats your suggestion, 4th party?

Someone totally removed, who, Joe the plumber? Better yet, Obama, he's totally removed!
Old     (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-10-2011, 4:24 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wetsounds1 View Post
We are down! I would love to do a 3rd party test. Would like to do tower speakers too. 1w/1m tests and 80 foot spl tests, off axis tests, etc

We could line up what tests to run and coordinate it. 3rd party would do tests and publish the results.

We would have to find a 3rd party testing company that could do the tests. And also what parameters to test.

Let me know!

Tim
Wet Sounds
For some reason I don't think Tim was clear enough - Just to set the record straight it would be a 3rd party that did the testing.

Last edited by murphy_smith; 03-10-2011 at 4:26 PM. Reason: b/c this is a freaking joke!!!! 3rd party is said three times
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-10-2011, 4:26 PM Reply   
No it was the "We" this and "We" that. When Tim says we in threads he's usually referring to WS.

Obama might be a good one, it would be his chance to get something right.
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-10-2011, 4:28 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphy_smith View Post
For some reason I don't think Tim was clear enough - Just to set the record straight it would be a 3rd party that did the testing.
Tim should have typed "3rd party" a few more times, then maybe it would have been visible through Nu-bu's owner goggles
Old     (wetsounds1)      Join Date: Jan 2006       03-10-2011, 4:29 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05mobiuslsv View Post
Sounds like too much involvement by a manufacturer to me. I was thinking someone totally removed from it all to do the whole thing. Unfortunately something like that would probably happen. Too bad.
Maybe you read my post wrong. I said we could FIND A 3rd PARTY. "We would have to find a 3rd party testing company that could do the tests."

Never said WE would do the testing. We could line up what tests we want them to run. So yes you and I are saying the same thing.

So let's see if I can make it more clear. I would be willing to provide Wet Sounds product to an independent 3rd party who is not manufacturer related. So THEY can test on their own all products submitted to them.

Now if anyone else is willing to participate is up in the air.

And if it would make you feel better. If you or anyone else finds a 3rd party testing company that is qualified. That’s fine with me. True 3rd party testing companies are just that. They are 3rd party. So they are Non biased independent testing companies. So who actually finds them and lays out what tests to have them perform means nothing about the results.

Tim
Wet Sounds

Last edited by wetsounds1; 03-10-2011 at 4:36 PM.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-10-2011, 4:32 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chpthril View Post
Tim should have typed "3rd party" a few more times, then maybe it would have been visible through Nu-bu's owner goggles
Nice try Mike . Sorry didn't mean to insult Obama, you must be a big fan.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-10-2011, 4:38 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wetsounds1 View Post
Maybe you read my post wrong. I said we could FIND A 3rd PARTY. "We would have to find a 3rd party testing company that could do the tests."

Never said WE would do the testing. We could line up what tests we want them to run. So yes you and I are saying the same thing.

So let's see if I can make it more clear. I would be willing to provide Wet Sounds product to an independent 3rd party who is not manufacturer related. So THEY can test on their own all products submitted to them.

Now if anyone else is willing to participate is up in the air.

Tim
Wet Sounds
I've seen reviews in Caraudiomag and that's kinda what I had in mind, not sure if they are unbiased or not.
Old     (wetsounds1)      Join Date: Jan 2006       03-10-2011, 4:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05mobiuslsv View Post
I've seen reviews in Caraudiomag and that's kinda what I had in mind, not sure if they are unbiased or not.
Well an RTA doesn’t lie and SPL meters don’t lie so that would be cut and dry and non biased. Same thing with the amp testing measurements. Same thing with Full frequency response in an anechoic chamber at 1watt/1meter which is industry standard testing.

So I think it would provide some good solid truthful results. As those are facts if given from a 3rd party company using the same machines and same testing procedures etc...The only opinions come into play when it is talking about what people like as far as sound. Some like highs, some like lows, etc..so on testing for sound, that is subjective. Not really bias but subjective

But there are plenty of things that can be tested with measuring devices and provide real non biased results

Tim
Wet Sounds
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-10-2011, 4:48 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05mobiuslsv View Post
Nice try Mike . Sorry didn't mean to insult Obama, you must be a big fan.
I work for a living and pay taxes, so you must have me confused with someone else
Old     (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       03-10-2011, 5:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
ok...and then I can tow my boat to SPL competitions! lol. I've checked out SSA and DC, along with Incriminator Audio, RE, Digital Designs, Treo, Fi, Aq, Atomic, etc, etc. From everything I read on Car Audio forums the Sundown appeared to be the favorite. One thing I learned is that a lot of people on Car Audio forums have very poor grammar.
Looks like you have done almost no research Yeah poor grammer and they almost exclusively install expensive systems in total POS'. Incidentally, I was being facetious about the Sundown since you'd want something that can bang allday ey'day.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-10-2011, 5:03 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chpthril View Post
I work for a living and pay taxes, so you must have me confused with someone else
Glad we cleared that up, you can't be to bad then. He's definitely not the working man's president.
Old     (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       03-10-2011, 5:42 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatepain View Post
Looks like you have done almost no research Yeah poor grammer and they almost exclusively install expensive systems in total POS'. Incidentally, I was being facetious about the Sundown since you'd want something that can bang allday ey'day.
You are not exaggerating in the slightest about them putting stereos that cost many times more than what the car is worth. I was really shocked and baffled when I saw some of the pictures.

Sun-up, Sundown, I don't discriminate.
Old     (UNvisible)      Join Date: May 2010       03-10-2011, 8:08 PM Reply   
There are several people on this forum wtih systems approaching half or more the value of their boat. Who cares, it's a hobby in and of its self.
Old     (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       03-10-2011, 8:47 PM Reply   
Yes half of a 50k boat maybe not a 6k system thrown into a $1500 branded title 2002 Potiac Grand Prix. But you're right we all need hobbies.
Old     (UNvisible)      Join Date: May 2010       03-10-2011, 8:59 PM Reply   
Agreed.
Old     (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       03-11-2011, 5:29 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNvisible View Post
There are several people on this forum wtih systems approaching half or more the value of their boat. Who cares, it's a hobby in and of its self.
I know everyone has hobbies, but I really don't understand why people put $6k stereos in a $2k car..if anything it should be a $2k stereo in a $6k car. It would be like you taking the stereo out of your boat and installing it in 14ft camoflage jon boat...
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-11-2011, 5:21 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bendow View Post
I know everyone has hobbies, but I really don't understand why people put $6k stereos in a $2k car..if anything it should be a $2k stereo in a $6k car. It would be like you taking the stereo out of your boat and installing it in 14ft camoflage jon boat...
Same reason some put 2K in wheels and tires on a 78 chevy caprice
Old     (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       03-12-2011, 10:29 AM Reply   
Yeah but TM that looks killer

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