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Old    nor_cal_01super            07-18-2006, 1:05 PM Reply   
DOes anyone own or has anyone had a chance to get a tow behind these new boats? Any pics or details you can give about your experience. Pros cons...
Old     (boardsandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2006       07-18-2006, 2:51 PM Reply   
E Money. I do not believe many people have ridden behind the Epic 23V. I have one available for demo rides in Northern California for those interested. I want to get this boat out and about so I can get feedback back to Chris Anthony. This can only lead to a stronger product offering.

We took the boat wakesurfing last Wednesday to get a feel for what it can do. I plan to link up with Jeff Walker and Dennis again very soon to tinker with the weight and weight distribution. You can find some of Jeff's comments in the wakesurfing forums.

The boat was also at the DRA event this past weekend and I know Gary took some riders out last Friday for some pulls. Maybe they can provide some feedback.

Here's my comments: The steering is different than other boats I've driven. I feel it is very responsive but some have said it's a tad sensitive. Gary mentioned the boat not tracking entirely straight but I can not confirm that until tomorrow as I'm picking the boat up from him tonight.

The engine is a beast and has no problem getting up to speed weighted.

The current side exhaust setup is too loud for my taste. Some may really enjoy the sound while others would prefer a quieter ride. Epic is aware of the feedback on this.

As far as the wake this is where we need more feedback. The key like any boat is getting all the ballast in the right spots as well as the trim. This takes tinkering and we honestly have not had enough local riders put this boat through its paces. I'm hoping to change this in the coming weeks. Most of the feedback has come from advanced riders behind preproduction boats and so far I am not aware of any complaints. The key is setup. I'm interested in feedback from novice to advanced local riders so email me if you want to get some pulls.
Old    nor_cal_01super            07-19-2006, 5:35 PM Reply   
I would curious to get a few tows behind it if its available. Compare it to my SAN. Let me know if that is an option, I can bring just myself (beginner wakeskater) or if needed a couple intermediate boarders can be brought as well.
Let me know... and thanks for the reply...
Old     (boardsandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2006       07-19-2006, 9:42 PM Reply   
I'll be happy to pull anyone interested all of next week. We can do the Sac River, the Delta, Berryessa, Folsom, and/or Shasta. Those interested please email and leave contact information as well as preferred day and location. If I get some groups together I can firm up a schedule.
Old    jfair            07-19-2006, 10:00 PM Reply   
how much the 23 epic going for any thing on the used market yet? any dealers in AZ
Old     (boardsandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2006       07-19-2006, 10:18 PM Reply   
Jesse,the boat is too new to have any used ones out there at the moment. There are a few preproduction boats floating around that you may be able to pick up if you like the boat. There is a dealer in Phoenix and I believe he has a boat available for test rides. Retail at the moment is approx 59k.
Old     (stevev210)      Join Date: Feb 2005       07-20-2006, 9:27 AM Reply   

Action Watersports in Mesa is a Session and Epic dealer. Robbie Brown is the owner.# 480-330-5726
Old     (showtime)      Join Date: Nov 2005       07-20-2006, 9:34 AM Reply --epic pics
Old     (greenpinky)      Join Date: Apr 2004       07-20-2006, 4:52 PM Reply   
Retail at $59K? I thought it was designed from the start to be under $50K completely decked out?
Old     (boardsandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2006       07-20-2006, 5:00 PM Reply   
That was the original plan but I believe the cost of materials increased. I'm sure Chris A can chime in on this.
Old     (malibuboarder75)      Join Date: Jan 2004       07-20-2006, 5:57 PM Reply   
$50k would have been nice, but honestly, no one (especially not a new company) can produce a boat with those types of standard features for under $50k and still be able to make a profit. The cheapest 23 foot v-drive costs about 45-50k from sanger or moomba. Epic is building a slightly larger boat with a 4000lb ballast system, using infused fiberglass, and large stock stereo. That is just a few.

(Message edited by malibuboarder75 on July 20, 2006)
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       07-20-2006, 9:26 PM Reply   
I agree leo, but from a marketing and business standpoint they NEED to be sold around 50k to begin with. They are a brand new company, with very few people ever actually riding behind one, and a very niche market; serious wakeboarders. As much I I would love to see this company do well for multiple reasons I truly believe they are going to need to take losses in the first 2-3 years of sales in order to build reputation and market awareness. Otherwise you are going to end up buying a boat with a large profit margin to offset the fleeting number of sales. I prefer to get as much out of my dollar as possible.
Old     (malibuboarder75)      Join Date: Jan 2004       07-20-2006, 11:47 PM Reply   
I agree that it would be easier for them to get into the market if they started off at such a low price that it would be dumb not to buy it. At the price they are at now, they are almost competing with all the other wakeboard boat companies. There biggest advantage now is that they have a huge stock ballast.
Old     (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       07-21-2006, 1:40 AM Reply   


There biggest advantage now is that they have a huge stock ballast.

that, and the transom speakers, among other things. transom speakers rule!
Old     (getssum)      Join Date: Jul 2005       07-21-2006, 8:34 AM Reply   
And don't forget the 8.1L motor.

Add that cost to most of the other brands, if it is offered, and epic is very competitive again..
Old     (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-21-2006, 8:58 AM Reply   
Boards & Boats hit it right on with his July 18th 2:51 post.

We were out in one earlier in the year and his comments pretty much echo what the "riders" in our group said.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that they are still tweeking the boat. They are not currently selling the boat to customers.......right????
Old     (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-21-2006, 9:03 AM Reply   
ADD......of course that was months ago and maybe they have tweeked and are good to go now.

I cannot echo the comments more about the LOUD, LOUD, LOUD side exhaust. I would NOT RECOMMEND getting that.

I was impressed the the layout, feel and ride of the boat and the 8.1 was impressive..... Ryan felt the dash could be lifted or adjusted to give a better view of the gauges.
Old     (boardsandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2006       07-21-2006, 10:46 AM Reply   
The boat has come along way from the black prototype you see in most pictures of the 23V. I've seen a handful of the preproduction boats and they continue to refine them.

I can order boats for those interested.

Anyone else in NorCal want to go out on some rides?
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-21-2006, 11:36 AM Reply   
I have had a very close look at this boat... keeping in mind that myself and many others that pay $50k+ for boats are keeping them longer and the resale value is based on how functional the boat is for future owners. I say this because, it would be a difficult decision for myself to pay the comparable price for an Epic as I would other more proven brand name boats.

Issues - Exhaust is loud. I understand that they have added a muffler, but due to the fact the side exhaust is out of water at running speeds, it is very loud. Also when you turn or the boat leans, the exhause oises changes from side to side.

Ballast fills from the back end of the boat. There are no check valves to stop water from flowing out. They claim it lets water out very slowly... my comment was.. so what... check valves are only a few bucks!

Ballast tanks... there are none... the water sits on the bottom of the hull... there are baffles and the floor is glassed over top to create the chambers... All I can say is... great... as long at you dont have a leak! If there is ever a leak into the coring of the boat... kiss the boat good bye. If water gets into the coring and you live in a climate where you have freezing over the winter... Yikes! I am just not a big fan of having 4000lbs of water sitting directly on the half inch thick fiberglass hull. But I am no expert.. just not something I would do to my own boat. I think if there were custom tanks built to fit in the chambers along with a glassed in stringer system... you might lose 300lbs total... but yo have the piece of mind that you wont have leaks into the integral structures of the boat.

Dual rudders... WHY? No performance difference. Why not cut cost on the extra rudder and put some check valves on the ballast pumps?

All in all... the boat has some great features... has great wake performance. I do feel it is one dimensional... meaning it only throws a big wake... other than that... there is no chance of it being multi-purpose.

Have they achieved what they wanted to achieve... In my opinion yes... Simply put... put the boat in the water, fill the ballast... and you will have the biggest nicest shape wake on the lake.

As a boat owner... that is important to me... but I also look at the boat as investment... How much can I resell my boat for... and how quickly can I sell it...

I think the market to sell a used MC, BU, SAN... is a vast market... to sell a used lesser known unproven boat... can be difficult...

When I say unproven... The ideas and the construction methods used in the Epic... can only be proven over time...

I would like others to be the test dummies, then I would look at sinking a small fortune into one.
Old     (tlb)      Join Date: Feb 2003       07-21-2006, 11:53 AM Reply   
Wow, I'm suprised to read this from you Kyle,
I'm pretty sure it was you a few months back really talking this boat up.. sounds like you're trashing it now.

There's one in sacto right now I'm going to try and look at, I'm not interested in a 23' boat but if they come out with a 21' I think I would seriously consider purchasing one. I really don't care about dealer service, most of the boat dealers in Sac suck anyway..
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-21-2006, 11:57 AM Reply   
Ah the 50k debate :-) When I first started this project I had several goals in mind. In order they were:
1- Make a superior wake(thus the hull design and HUGE ballast)
2- Make a boat that is both functional and maintainable by the average rider(so they can spend more time on the water and less time maintaining and cleaning their boat)
3- Make an affordable boat for all of those who want one(thus the original 50k plan)

I believe we have accomplished all of these goals with our new 23v(to be unveiled at Surf Expo).

The pre-production boats worked out great and they have been a valuable testing tool. We have received a lot of great feedback which we incorporated into this new version of the boat. But the $$$ of the whole project dictate that 50k for a boat this size which is fully optioned as standard is unrealistic. This boat has: a resin infused hull, a 14 speaker audio system with 2 remotes and an I-pod doc, a collapsible billet tower with swivel racks, PP Wakeboard Pro, 3 vent heater, depth finder, clock, a boot luber, a travel cover and an 8.1l Volvo with a Hurth V-drive... This boat is STACKED! And when comparing the 23v to the competition it is still 20-40% less in price if you compared it comparably equipped. We have tried to keep the price down but it just the economics of the whole thing. We hope to get our 21v done by the end of the year and push it out to the more size and budget conscious of riders but as of now the 23v and 23vt will be priced in the 60s.

Overall I think riders who love the 23v after their first pull will be happy to pay a relatively budget price for a premium product that they know was designed with their needs in mind. I do appreciate everyones opinions on the price issue though and know that money does not grow on trees. I have worked my rear off getting Epic into a position to serve the wake sports community and I hope that people appreciate the effort we have put into making a great boat that will throw a monster of a wake when needed and a happy wake for beginners when unballasted yet is still easy to use and maintain and cost less than other comparable equipped boats :-)

And we are having a new muffler designed as we speak for the side exhaust but we are now making that standard as well. We had a down exhaust but it vibrates the boat at idle and makes for unpleasant siting time on the lake :-( The main problem with the side exhaust is when the tips break the plane of the water on starts it makes a loud flapping sound, we are also working on something to help with this as well :-)
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       07-21-2006, 12:12 PM Reply   
Chris: mad props regarding the company, boat, and creative ideas; I have a ton of respect for anyone who does what you have. Provided you obtained the capital to back the project I am assuming you are pretty business savy; just please dont go the HP route. (backstory for those un-aware: HP originally was all engineers who had great ideas and killer visions. They focused the entire company around engineering which worked until the competitors came along. Then they were beaten in all business areas except engineering (which is arguable as well). This was due to HP's inability to change with the market, their organization structure and company direction never changed while the market and competitors did. This lead to a massive loss in market share and poor financial performance)

This industry could really use a good shake-up and most of us know our limits; hire (if you havent already) a strong team of specifically successful associates. We all know you can either do a lot of things well or one thing exceptionally.

I am not bagging on you one bit, just pulling for the underdog!
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-21-2006, 12:48 PM Reply   
Hmmm, missed Kyles post while I was writing...

For those who don't know, Kyle runs a local WakeBoard school on the same lake as our factory up in the Great White North. He is actually the one who hooked up the manufacturer here to receive a bid request from us when we were first seeking out a new manufacturer. He has been involved with the project from the start and his input has helped us greatly and has been much appreciated along the way but he hasn't seen many of the recent developments with the 23v and the company that are pushing us to a whole new level of quality and production capacity. I guess I will have address his issue comments one at a time:

- The side exhaust is being worked on but is does exactly what is is designed for. When you are surfing and one side of the exhaust is under water the all of the exhaust is diverted out the other side which is opposite to the side being surfed. Thus no fumes for the surfer to suck down as he thrashes or just cruises for what is some times many many minutes of riding

- The ballast is proven and works great. We are not the first to use a ballast system like this. Offshore racers have been using the exact same set-up for 40 years. The tank is glass and the floor of the hull is glass. When you put them together you have one big glass tank. And I have never heard anyone complain about water leaking out of the tanks because we don't have check valves. We have had people out for a whole day of riding with out touching the ballast once and they have seen no significant drop in ballast levels. Basically we don't need check vales because we plumb the system correctly.

- The Vector Steer System(dual rudder thing) works great. I'm surprised anyone could say otherwise as it is usually one of the first comment every new driver makes, "wow this thing really handles". Across the board, I have head that fully loaded this boat's handling is in a whole new class. In general it has far exceeded my expectations of what it would do to improve the handling over traditional set-ups.

- And our construction methods are the same Burt Rutan used to put a man into Space. And now we are branching the technology out into the automotive and aerospace industries because it has proven so successful. Certainly there will be skeptics on this new technology but there are also people out there that refuse to use a computer because it's "THE DEVIL"...basically we have a method that makes a fiberglass part 30xstronger and weighs almost half as much as a traditionally manufactured part. The science is there and it is working great :-)

- I would say that the resale of a boat that is made with poor quality parts and has a bad reputation would be difficult. We are using the best parts available and building a top quality boat. The infusion technology provides a superior gel-coat adhesion and will keep the boat looking great for 10s of years longer than traditional boats. And as long as we are growing the company steadily and demand is high for our new boats then demand will be equally high for our used boats.

I guess I might have seemed a bit ranting in my response to those comments, but I though that Kyle would have a more positive outlook on the 23v as he is soo close to the project :-( I hope as he sees us progress we can bring him back into a positive mindset on Epic and our new boats as he is a great guy and one who's opinions I value. I will have to say though, that this boat does what it was designed to to, which is to meet the needs of wake sports enthusiasts. It is not meant to be a cross over boat. You can ski behind it and tube behind it, but you can do those things behind a zodiac if you want to. This boat is intended for those people who take their boats out and wakeskate, wakeboard, and wakesurf and like spending more time on the water and less time cleaning and maintaining their boats. You are no "dummie" if you love the sport and hop behind an Epic 23v and feel it is the best boat for you. Just take a pull when we are in your area. The 23v is not the boat for everyone but we know many people who already love the wake, comfort, useability and maintainability it offers :-) Maybe you will feel the same way after taking a pull?
Old     (malibuboarder75)      Join Date: Jan 2004       07-21-2006, 12:51 PM Reply   
Chris, I am hoping the the 21v will be more like the size of a 210 or x-1. If that is the case, I might buy one out of college in a few years.
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-21-2006, 12:52 PM Reply   
Thx Matt :-) I guess we are the underdog. But we are building a hell of a team here and we all love what we are doing. I just wish I could get more time on the water :-)
Old     (hal2814)      Join Date: Feb 2006       07-21-2006, 12:53 PM Reply   
"1- Make a superior wake(thus the hull design and HUGE ballast)
2- Make a boat that is both functional and maintainable by the average rider(so they can spend more time on the water and less time maintaining and cleaning their boat)
3- Make an affordable boat for all of those who want one(thus the original 50k plan)"

And which of the above 3 points covers the "14 speaker audio system with 2 remotes and an I-pod doc"? I'm not claiming that this boat isn't a good deal for the money and I'm not claiming the absence of the stereo would be enough to put you under $50k but when you have such utlitarian goals and can't meet your initial pricing objectives, the elite stereo system certainly makes me scratch my head.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-21-2006, 1:04 PM Reply   
Hey Tom... Not bashing the Epic at all. Chris wants honest opinions. Those are my opinions. I am pretty picky about how a boat is built and performs. So after taking a close look at the boat... those are my concerns. I can't say that the way the ballast will have longevity or not... It has not been around long enough. And that is my point. I don't know if I want to be a guy that owns one and five years down the road, the ballast system has issues. These boats have to be built with not only today in mind... but 10 years down the road.

When looking at the brand name boats... I know the history.. both good and bad.. and I know other people that own them.. and have their feedback.. good and bad... so I can get a pretty good idea when I take the boat for a test drive.. which on average last about an hour...

If I could take an Epic... I would love to have it for a weekend and put it through the ringer.

That would give me a little more confidence before I put $50k+ down on a boat.

I was fully prepared to purchase one... but they have still being trying to "perfect" the production model... so I collapsed the deal on the boat I was selling.

Still there are no production models coming out.. so it looks like I may keep my boat for another year... and maybe upgrade the 85 Carerra to a 06 Carerra...

I will be looking at a new boat this year or next... don't know what I will go with.

I just need a good performing relable boat for the wakeboard club/school... and I like to work with a boat dealer, because we promote proper operation and test drives of the boats. So we sell a few boats for the dealer throughout the year.

Epic doesn't have a dealer for this area... so it may not be feasible for us to maintain a good relationship with our local boat dealer by using a boat they don't sell.

We actually approached Epic to promote the boat and open a dealership, but they were not interested at this point. We actually dealt through Chris, whom has taken on the behind the scenes role with Epic and other projects. Adam is responsible for dealer network and sales, which he hasn't expressed interest in what we have done as a small wakeboard school and networking with a local boat dealer.

We totally understand. We don't sell 250 boats per year... we don't do national advertising... we are just a small group that promote the sport of wakeboarding in our community.

Though we are still interested and hope their success as it is built in our hometown!

We feel we are somewhat responsible for finding this partnership between the local factory and Epic boats. As the two parties would have never have met if it wasn't for us making that connection possible.

We look forward to seeing more Epics on our local lakes.
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-21-2006, 1:27 PM Reply   
Dante - the stereo was kind of an evolution. I love music when I ride. I feel it is a necessity. We designed the boat with transom audio to replace the standard tower speakers which are very loud to the interior passengers and aren't as clear as they could be to the rider. This system is actually cheaper that a comparable tower set-up and was just a logical thing to have a standard on the 23v. We want the boat to come "ready to throw in the water and wakeboard" and I thing the stereo is part of that. :-)
Old     (hal2814)      Join Date: Feb 2006       07-21-2006, 1:48 PM Reply   
I guess I do some other sort of wakeboarding because I've never lost a day on the water because the stereo doesn't work. Maybe a boat company will actually follow your three stated objectives one day.
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-21-2006, 2:10 PM Reply   
Dante - it is a decision that anyone making a product for more than one person has to make. If you would like a boat that is just a glass hull, engine and ballast and you have 4,000 friends that want the exact same thing then we are in business with a 50k boat :-) Unfortunately, I just don't see the market accepting that kind of boat. We would be attempting to sell to a niche of a niche market and I don't think that would keep us in business very long. I do feel your pain and we are trying to get a 21'er done ASAP to hit a middle ground with people who want a more "bare" boat.
Old    surfdad            07-21-2006, 2:18 PM Reply   
I would like to chime in on a few issues. First is the steering/twin rudders. Principally, we only wakesurf these days. I load my '03 Tige 23V with about 1,300 pounds of ballast on the port side. That creates an ugly handling boat, it pulls to one side and feels heavy.

We had the opportunity to play with an Epic 23 and it handles like a dream. Plain and simple. Fullen ladden it still steers better than many boats I've driven unladen. PLUS, backing the Epic is controllable. You won't be doing figure 8's but you can back it pretty much in a straight line.

Personally, if I can get the wakesurf ballasting worked out, I think the Epic is multi-dimensional. Unladen it's easy to take into coves for fishing and the steering makes it possible to sneak in just about anywhere. You can slalom behind it - recreationally, that is. Tubing is possible too :-) Hate that fat kid that lives next door? Fill the ballast up and whip him around over the wake :-) We've surfed it, and I'm determined to get the ballasting worked out to make it above average. :-) Really it can do pretty much anything you want to do behind the boat.

It's a serious boat and my guess is that you'll start seeing the major boat companies borrowing ideas from the Epic.

Quiet the exhaust, OH! and add Surfboard racks! Chris what were you thinking?! :-) Beyond that, there isn't anything that feels like it's missing. Check the wakesurfing forum in a few weeks for a follow-up as we'll have a full day to play with the ballast - Thanks Dave! :-)
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-21-2006, 3:12 PM Reply   
I guess my comments are taken a little out of context. I could go through and list every piece of information of what makes the Epic a great wake creating machine.

As I have always said, in my opinion... it is a perfect boat for someone that wants to drop the boat into the lake, flip the switches, turn the key and build the perfect wake without having to fill extra sacks etc.

We do everything to promote Epic and still continue to do so.

There isn't a day that goes buy where I haven't had a phone call at my work... how someone gets my work phone number is beyond me... but I have received many phone calls at work.. from all over... BC, Alberta, Ontario, Washington, Oregon, and some other parts of North America about the progress of Epic boats.

I actually intended on being the first official owner of one of these boats to promote in the local area.

In my opinion Chris being the original designer, now the financial "behind the scenes" guy... was great when we looked at co-ordinating a strategy to promote the boat in the local area. But he has handed down that role to someone else. It was nice when Chris was promoting the boat because it was his own sweat and labour that went into it.

One of the key aspects of the area I live in... is that most of the people that ride with me are boat owners themselves. Unlike other clubs where people ride because it is cheap and they don't own a boat.

Just off the top of my head this year... riders in my group have bought (2) Malibu VLX, (1) Malibu LSV, (2) MC X-Star, (1) MC X-9, (1) MC X-45, (2) Supra 21V, (1) Tige 20V, (1) Tige 22V, and some other used purchases...

All which had asked about the progress of the Epic 23V. I had every intention of having at least 50% of those guys in an Epic!

I know part of the Epic plan is to support the wakeboarding community... but I also thought that it would be to make Epic a profitable venture to ensure the livelyhood of Epic in the future.

As a business owner and entrepreneur... I feel there is a fine line between marketing and making a profitable company...

I looked forward to helping Epic make a huge local splash economically... not only investing in my own Epic, but to promote and have a few boats sold in the area. But since Chris has taken a back seat to the sales side of Epic, it appears the promotion of Epic has taken a different direction.

I have and had no financial interest in Epic nor was I expecting financial gain. It was a project that I shared the same passion as Chris, also, that is where my comments opinions come from too. I want the boat that I have grown close to... to be perfect.

But I am not part of the company, I am not hands on with them. So my comments are not to bash, they are simply stating my opinions.

I know the fact that Chris reads these forums will make him make the best boat possible. With no feedback, he would never know what to consider when making changes to the boat.

Again, the other major aspect is how good the dealer network and support is for Epic.

As of right now, there is no dealer that I know of in our area, so it makes it impossible to purchase the boat and provide more ongoing feedback.

As of right now, I own a boat, and will be selling this year as I turn my boat over every 2-3 years.

My buying is 95% based on the dealer and their support. The marine industry is a seasonal business here and we like to see our dealers do well. So if we can promote the brands our dealers carry which result is sales, then we know our dealers will support us too!

Too many schools and other groups and individuals get support from their dealers and they never result in a sale. We encourage people to come and test drive the boat, we give them driving lessons, and orientation on launching and loading etc. We do everything to show the full potential of the boat. Which at the end of the day, usually results in a sale.

Too many times I see people test drive... and they dont try the ballast... or launching... or loading.. or trailering... or top speed... or surf, or wake etc... if you can show a potential buy the MAXIMUM potential of the boat.. they will usually buy. Especially when it is as good as the Epic.

Honestly, it is painful when I hear... "the surf wake was good but would still like to play with the ballast to get it perfect" THE DEALER SHOULD HAVE EVERY ASPECT OF THE BOAT DIALED IN... SO WHEN THERE IS A TEST DRIVE... THEY CAN SHOW THEM THE MAXIMUM POTENTIAL.

I have heard so many dealers with their products tell me what the boat can do... but don't show me what it can do.

I currently own a Supreme. When my dealer has a client for a test drive. They call me and I take them out. I will show them what stock potential looks like. And then I will show them what 3500lbs looks like.

When we had access to the Epic Prototype, we did the same thing. We proved to people that what Chris claimed the boat would do... did!

So again, to clarify... I am a fan of Epic. I do not have any affiliation with Epic. I have some opinions about Epic, which you have read from previous posts, but I am not bashing them at all.

PS... if I had a role with the Epic 23V. You would have already seen and been in one of the many on lakes all over North America.

To give you an idea... Supreme had no representation on our local lake. So I test drove.. and liked... and have been instrumental in the handful you see on our lake now.

I love working with smaller companies and help them stand tall beside the big names.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-21-2006, 3:19 PM Reply   
Chris will confirm how much we support the wakeboarding in our community. Every club member gets a free pro model board and bindings. We will cover the cost of provincial memberships and contest entry fees for our members that want to compete.

For those that are on our local lake... it is a daily occurance that we will pull up beside total strangers and throw them a wakeboard spectra line and a proper sized board setup when we see them teaching a new rider.

We are not making money... quite the contrary.. we lose a ton of money... but it is fun being a part of the wakeboard community and the events and projects that go along with them.

I guess it is the help we offer that has given us the respect locally as the trusted source of advice when it comes to choosing a new/used boat, equipment etc... That is also part of the reason why dealers like to support us because they know we will send clients their way.

We do everything we can to support the sport... and that includes promoting and supporting Epic. Hence the reason for Epic decals on my truck, car, amongst some other toys.
Old    wake_skywalker            07-22-2006, 9:31 AM Reply   
Hey What's up every one my name is Anthony. I own an Epic preproduction 23v. I called Chris as soon as I heard about his Wake dream machine. We were in contact every day it seemed. As my emotions grew for this boat, I said ok make it. I made the decision with out driving it seening or anything of that nature. I went on my gut feeling. With all that been said I'm the happiest person with the raddest boat around period. This monster has well exceeded my expectations. For the price of an Epic you could'nt touch any other boat with the same features.
I can't understand why all of you don't except the fact that they have the same products as the other boat companies, For a fraction of the price. I would go through the features but Chris has already done so. Take it from me, I've owned a malibu wakesetter(02) sanger 210 (01) and there is no comparason.

Syndicate Industries Clothing
Bakersfield Combat Club
Old     (hal2814)      Join Date: Feb 2006       07-23-2006, 6:44 AM Reply   
"I do feel your pain and we are trying to get a 21'er done ASAP to hit a middle ground with people who want a more "bare" boat."

So your solution to my refusal to pay for a whizbang stereo is to ask me to give up the wake on a 23'er in exchange for giving me a more stripped down boat? Thanks but no thanks. I understand that the market in general wants most of the things you have installed on the 23' boat as standard. What I don't understand is why you can't make the things that don't directly affect the wake or towing an option. You can still market it the same and build most of your boats with those options installed but then have the stripped down one sitting on the lot or available to special order. The reason I think you're not making those things options is that too many people will order the stripped down ride if given the option.

And I realize that I'm holding Epic to a higher standard than the other guys but when they state goals like the above 3, they're asking to be held to a higher standard. I may be a niche of a niche but its a subniche that's growing. I was one of those teenagers who fell in love with wakeboarding back in the 90's. I'm in my late 20's now and can finally afford a true wakeboat if I want one. It's not a boat some kiddie is getting using his daddy's money and it's not something to get because I have all kinds of cash lying around. I just want to have the best wake and pull possible. I just want a simple boat that does one thing well. The waterskiing industry was able to do this in the 70's and 80's. I don't see why the wakeboard industry can't do it today.
Old     (malibuboarder75)      Join Date: Jan 2004       07-23-2006, 7:57 AM Reply   
Dante, well said. I agree, boat manufacturers are making boats with luxury and bling in mind. I want a boat that puts out a wake. So far there is no company that just focuses on the wake, all focus too much on the interior, tower design, graphic design, led lights, blinged tower, blinged cockpit, etc. That is why I would get a sanger when I graduate college.
Old     (brit_rider)      Join Date: May 2004       07-27-2006, 5:22 PM Reply   
woah Dante... just order one stereo delete and ask for a credit on it :-)

Chris Anthony - I'll be at Surf Expo this year and look forward to meeting you and checking out the boat. I'd love to grab a coffee and discuss the product and your international plans if you have time.

Mike Dovey
Old     (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       07-28-2006, 7:58 AM Reply   
This is all very interesting to watch, but the performance claims are starting to sound a little cliché. Get some boats in the market, and ease up on the hype.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-28-2006, 9:58 AM Reply   
wake_skywalker - Why not post a bunch of pics of your boat... interior... wake etc... Not many people have had the chance to see the developments from the original prototype. What color did you go with? Show us!!!
Old     (festivus)      Join Date: Jan 2006       07-28-2006, 11:54 AM Reply   
pics pics pics pics pics pics
Old     (dcooper)      Join Date: Mar 2005       07-28-2006, 1:42 PM Reply   
WOW... This is getting heated.

I have read most of the posts and think there are some valid points. Like any new company there are concerns of longenvity. Look at Toyota/Epic, lot's of financial backing and a good product but, gone none the less. Glad I don't havve one of those. Like Dante, I think that you can use the bling boat to bring people in a but, a lot of people need to cut the stereo or some things to get the boat. So having the option to get a good boat without all the bling is a good thing.

Got to give it to Chris to open up and post in this forum. That in my opinion takes guts.
Old    wake_skywalker            07-28-2006, 6:36 PM Reply   
Hey Dante, Dude take it from me I wasnt born with a silver spoon in my mouth or have money to throw away. Furthermore I'm sorry to tell you the world dosent revolve around you. My point is that when you purchace a boat you want the most for your money. With an Epic you get just that. So if you dont like the way the industry is ran start your own boat company and offer those options.
Hey Kyle I havent taken any pictures of my wake yet. Let me tell you that the wake is bigger than both of my old boats with 2k in them non weighted! I would like to end this with I'm in no way shape or form relateded to Epic Wake Boats other than a loyal customer and someone who is pulling for them to make it.

Syndicate Industries Clothing
Bakersfield Combat Club
Old    wake_skywalker            07-28-2006, 6:55 PM Reply   

Hey Kyle here you go. Please disreguard the fact that I'm a slob
Old     (wallyworld)      Join Date: Jan 2003       07-28-2006, 9:43 PM Reply   
if it is the only true wakeboat how come there are no wake pics anywhere to be found?
Old    buckettim            07-28-2006, 10:57 PM Reply   
Have you look for any WallyWorld????????? doubt it i've found a few by using the world famous SEARCH engine....Man technology is getting so crazy these days that all you have to do is type what you are looking for and BAM!!!! you can find it!!!

(Message edited by buckettim on July 28, 2006)
Old    buckettim            07-28-2006, 11:01 PM Reply   
All of these Photos are from there web page

(Message edited by buckettim on July 28, 2006)
Old    buckettim            07-28-2006, 11:05 PM Reply   
Old     (wallyworld)      Join Date: Jan 2003       07-29-2006, 8:35 AM Reply   
hey south park retard boy,

of course I have seen their website photos. I would like to see an ACTUAL owner post pics of his epic. Dont any real owners exist or do they just take pictures of the boat in evey possible angle but never take their cameras out while people are riding the only true wakeboat?
Old    buckettim            07-29-2006, 9:12 AM Reply   
how about this Wallyworld I'm going to try and get a pull behind this boat as soon as can, or as one is made available, I'l take all the wake pics and post them so you can see the wake
Old     (wickii)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-03-2006, 12:25 AM Reply   
I was going to write an article about how Epic’s Chris Anthony abandoned wakeboarders by selling out his original goals, which were to “Build ‘The World's First Wake Boat’.” and “Sell their boats for less than $50,000 dollars”. Then I realized something earth shattering… Selling boats for under $50k was never Epic’s intention! It’s not in the press releases, and it’s not in any of the articles I have come across!! (See WakeWorld Online Article - Epic Wake Boats – Homegrown 7/25/05


I think we can stop busting Chris’s balls. We should also stop encouraging a fledgling company to build substandard products. I can see it now… 2000 boats sold with 15 holes where the stereo and speakers were supposed to be. Wait… The Extremely Religious demographic will probably like that. Epic’s got the Holiest boats on the market! No offence.

Realistically, removing a stereo from a boat will shave off $500 bucks, maybe. Good luck getting from 60k+ to less than 50k with that. The problem here is not cost; we all know this boat doesn't cost $50,000 in parts and labor, just like we know it doesn't cost $100,000 to make a Mercedes Benz. If they did then the company wouldn't be making a profit and it would go out of business. The question is, “Will Epic adjust to consumer demand and take less profit in order to enter and remain in the market?”

The boat market is saturated. There are plenty of great wakeboarding boats out there. Epic boats won’t make beginner or intermediate boarders ride better than any other boat on the market. And, professional riders have not maxed out their potential behind the boats available today. There is no proof that an Epic boat will help riders transcend any boundaries, and until they do, they cannot justify charging more than their competitors.

That said, the only thing a new boat company has to offer today is competitive pricing. Chris had an idea. Make the world’s first wake boat. He has done that, though I really don’t see how it’s any different than the other wakeboarding boats on the market. His boat performs as well, but not better, than many similarly equipped boats, and the price was $45k, standard (I was quoted this price 7/29/2006 by a Dealer in Kansas City, Mo). So as far as I can see, the only thing that puts an Epic boat ahead of the competition is the value price (same performance and equipment, less money). This combination is a winner for consumers!

Then something changed, and the price went up. I don’t know whether it was the new investors, who always want higher return on investment, or unexpected and very necessary marketing, sales, promotional, and manufacturing costs. All I know is Kenwood didn’t start charging $10,000 for their head units. It would be nice if Chris could set a precedent and let us in on what exactly is affecting the price.

Bottom line is, we need to stop bickering about the superficial things, because it won't solve the problem. Epic’s goal is to make and sell “Wake Boats”, and remain in business. So now you have to ask yourself, "Is this boat worth what Epic wants to charge me?" If not, don't buy it. Otherwise, make suggestions that will increase the boat's value to you, which will make the price-to-value ratio more desirable. And finally, if the price never matches the value, and consumers don't buy, I'm pretty sure no one will miss old…uhhh…. "What was that startup boat companies name again?"

I'm just stating my perspective as a prospective buyer and fellow wakeboarder. I think Epic is off to a good start. They have a good product. The organization and objectives are just flexing a bit as more interests are brought into the mix. Things will settle down. I just hope Epic will continue to listen and respond to customer’s suggestions and at the same time drive the “Wake Boat” industry through continued innovations and rider support.

Did somebody say Warranty? Hello? Is there a Warranty?

Steve Wick
Fellow Boarder
Kansas City, Missouri
Old     (doubleup10)      Join Date: Jun 2006       08-03-2006, 1:31 AM Reply   
The thing many of you are forgetting is that the market's movement towards "bling" was driven by us, the consumers. They aren't forcing speakers and lights and remotes and chrome upon us, we're asking for it. For every person who wants a stripped down wake machine, there's atleast one person dying to have the brightest, loudest, flashiest party/wake boat on the lake, so he can crank up the tunes, fill it up with friends, and show off for the ladies. As long as that guy is out there, the companies will keep selling and making a profit on "blinged" boats. There's no reason Epic should be asked to buck this market trend.
Old     (toyotafreak)      Join Date: Sep 2003       08-07-2006, 7:52 PM Reply   
Too funny about the whole "you're just trying to gouge us for profit" comment. You think Chris is pulling an Exxon Mobile, huh?

Good points about possibly shipping without the sound system to trim cost or if you're looking to customize. Don't know the system, but it'd obviously shave a few ducks. Might be smart to keep the transom speaks at least. My guess is he's not making anything on the stereo at this point - that one had me laughing too.

The comments regarding vector steer while the boat's loaded out seem to justify it for me - handling equals safety and if you're gonna roll with 4K, the mfr better do what he can to keep you in control.

We all bashed (not really, but criticized) the Epic's original tower, and now that he's put one on with some style, we're gonna bash him for that too because it costs too much.

If the resources of one of the world's most cash-rich auto makers couldn't build boats at a profit ($60K to build a $45K boat) while they were starting up, how are a handful of guys going to sell for $60K what MC would charge $80K for? You can blame the big three for gouging perhaps, but hey, they're pumping them out, huh? My guess is that Chris is probably just desparately trying to sell near enough to COST to help get through these first tough years.

Speaking of niches, I'm sure there is a niche group of riders that would pay $80K+ for the (and I quote), "most hardcore wake boat", but gaurantee you that's not the niche Chris is shooting for. That's not the way to maximize return, he's smart enough to know that, and to tell you the truth, he strikes me more as an excited cousin than an Uncle Scrooge.

I also agree (and sure Chris knows) that the Epic needs to get out there, to be run by people who ride daily. Needs to get out daily in the hands of people like Kyle. He knows that situations like Kyle's are the best way to get engineering feedback. People one Wakeworld and those other websites and local contests and pros and wakeboard schools...they all need to get to know the thing. Betcha that as soon as he can get that happening, the boat will speak for itself. Problem is, there's only so much time in the day, and only so much a team can do when you're talking things like molds for a 23-foot part, production agreements, gathering and implementing feedback, etc. I bet those boats spend more time on the road than the Angels.

And you're right, the big three will pimp any of Chris' ideas that turn out to be a hit and leave him for dead - without any shame whatsoever. Of course, he could spend a half man-year every year protecting his intellectual property but then we'd bash him for raising costs by a half man-year and how it slowed his race to full-rate production.

Not trying to cheerlead here. I love my boat, and like all the rest of you, can appreciate a 247 or SANTE or the MC swivel-rack tower. I can also see that the Epic is a serious bad boy. Kinda like what the X-Star would've been if it had grown up on the streets before making it big. A little more muscle and a little out of place at the prom.
Old     (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       08-07-2006, 8:03 PM Reply   
I say.....get rid of the Vector steering.WHY you say???

1)I like the fact that the boat back up to the driver side.....easy to dock.

2)It makes the boat more expensive.

3)Actually,I won't get into it but all I know is it needs to go!!!!
Old     (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-07-2006, 8:19 PM Reply   
Big Ed,

1) You can still back up to the driver's side with Vector steering.

2) So you scrap the second Rudder? On a manufacturing cost level, you just saved $300. Plus maybe $20 for the tie-rod. Your $60k boat can now be sold for $59,680. Good work, way to save 1/2%! You should start a business.

3) I think you'll make a great CEO.
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-07-2006, 10:32 PM Reply   
Hmm, this has been an interesting post to say the least. I appreciate everyones' opinion and most peoples' stoke for this new boat and my efforts to bring something different to the table. I feel the pain of high priced boats and can only tell you that Derek pretty much hit it on the head - we are trying to gain traction in the market and are not making any $$$ on our first offerings. It will take a long time to streamline production and our profit potential. I started building a boat to throw a better wake along the way I've had to build a company that is capable enough to bring this dream to life. The complexities of bringing such a large and feature filled boat to market has been a bit overwhelming at times. We are bringing a unique, some would say better, product to market. We are building with a method that is good enough for Space Ship parts(literally). I haven't made a big deal of the resin infusion(mostly because it is difficult to explain and most will probably view it as a marketing tool rather than a truly advanced technique that REALLY makes a better fiberglass part) but this process is not cheap. The fiberglass technology alone in our 23v should have it selling at a premium. Yet even with all the features and advanced design included in the 23v we are pricing this boat out at 60k. I know it is a lot of $$$ and I wish we could bring a cheaper boat to market for those who want something more budget conscious but I made a decision early on in this process to build a "better" boat. That includes the Resin Infusion, the Vector Steer System, the Transom Audio, the 4,000lbs ballast system and all the other features that make this boat durable, maintainable, useable, and the most fun to drive and to ride behind(in my humble opinion).

If I just wanted to make a boat that threw a good wake and was cheap I would have just used an old x-star to copy the hull design and then made the deck look a bit different so I wouldn't get in trouble(this has happened to many companies including MasterCraft) Once I had a copied design I would have just used chopped glass, cheap gel-coat and all the bargain parts I could put on a boat and still look good at the dealership. The boat would have the same features you have seen for years - ballast, tower, small stereo, Perfect Pass clone and a crappy trailer that will rust out from under your boat in two years.

That idea just doesn't excite me. I have a background in race kayak design and race river design and I love the art of fluid dynamics. It is something that has fascinated me since I was in highschool. It is a science that is largely misunderstood but which has ramifications in almost everything and almost any product in any market today. This boat arose from my curiosity on the issue of fluid dynamics and boat design. I just don't see why I would waste so much time improving on fundamental hull design with the 23v and then not improve any other aspect of the boat. Thus the Resin Infusion and all the other features I mentioned. I know many may have approached the design of this boat differently but this is just how I really feel a boat should be built.

We could discuss pairing down the 23v to be a cheaper offering but in a manufacturing environment most of the features we include do not cost that much to include. We try to include these features to make our boat even more attractive and beyond reproach in terms of cost comparisons. If we took some of these features out it would only minimally lower the retail price and then we would be on the downside of apple to apple comparisons with other boat manufacturers. To me this is just not the route we should travel.

In the end I know people just have to get behind the boat and determine that it is the best boat for them. The 23v will certainly not be the boat for everyone for a number of reasons but we hope to pair down those negatives over the next couple of years and truly make this not only a great boat but also a great boat company that is respected for bringing a great product to the public at a very reasonable price. Take a pull and sit behind the wheel when a 23v is in your area. I hope you like it and tell your friends that we make a great product. But if you find things you don't like or that could use improvement please drop me an e-mail so we can fix it and attain the goal I just mentioned. I will listen and have taken a WHOLE lot of feedback thus far to improve this product from the glob that was shaped in my driveway( to the refined product we will unveil at SurfExpo this year.

In any case please remember that I am a fan of Wake Sports. I love the sport and the other boats that have brought the sport to the level it is at today. I still get all giddy inside every time I meet a BIG name rider and love to cheer on every new rider I meet. It is soo cool to see the look on someone's face the first time they stand up on a board or land their first wake to wake. We have all been there :-) I just took my passion a bit further and am now in the middle of discussions just like this...I LOVE IT :-)
Old     (luchog)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-07-2006, 10:59 PM Reply   
I was just wondering how much would the Epic 23 retail if it was made with a "regular" construction method and a smaller block engine?.
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-08-2006, 12:46 AM Reply   
With a small block and Chopped Fiberglass instead of the infusion the 23v would probably be just over 55k. Most of the savings would be from the smaller engine but with 4,000lbs of ballast I really like the extraordinary time to plane with the 8.1l. Quicker to plane means better fuel economy. We are working on hard numbers but we think the 8.1l is only about 10 less fuel efficient than a 5.7l because the time to plane is soo much better :-)
Old     (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       08-08-2006, 6:31 AM Reply   
Saw this boat out on the river I ride on, just drivign over the rollers the wake is freakin huge. Whoeever was drivin was doing some crazy turns , unlike anything you'd see made by a 23 foot boat. The boat looks really big sitting in the water
Old     (jon4pres)      Join Date: May 2004       08-08-2006, 7:23 AM Reply   
Chris, When will the 21 be out and what options and price will it have?
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-08-2006, 9:58 AM Reply   
The 21v will have pretty much everything the 23v has except it will have a 5.7l engine, slightly smaller ballast(like 3,200lbs). The price will probably fall in the 55k range.
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-08-2006, 10:05 AM Reply   
Chris I know you havent pushed the whole resin infused, but personally it gets me pretty excited. I like the idea of a hull that will outlast the driveline and interior; but thats my mechanical side talking. I am curious to see what things will be like in 10-15 years, if these boats will be the "hotrods" of the industry since they can continually be rebuilt (provided I am understanding the longevity of these hulls correctly).

Derek I like that line: "Kinda like what the X-Star would've been if it had grown up on the streets before making it big."
Old     (toyotafreak)      Join Date: Sep 2003       08-08-2006, 11:14 AM Reply   
Okay, to do this without adding to the hype....From my recreational experience vacuum bagging r/c sailplane parts (despite being toys, weight and strength are critical), I can tell you that in terms of getting strength out of a given amount of weight, keeping parts tight and clean, and getting really reproducable results...comparing open-mold fiberglass parts (like production boats have done for all these years) with curing under vacuum is the equivalent to comparing 1975 and 2006 Cadillacs on a road course. Maybe a better comparison would be a cast prop versus a CNC one. A REEEEEALLY good prop guy could turn out a really good cast prop, but even his best won't be as good as the worst milled one. How many REEEEEEALY good prop guys are there compared to how many mill operators capable of placing a rought-cast NiBrAl chunk into a mill and pressing GO?

For an industry used to open-molding, resin infusion is new ground. For the broader composites industry, it's old news for the high tech stuff. One big draw is that you can get the same (proper) amount of resin in the layup each and every time, where each really well-trained, experienced hand-lay guy will do things a little different.

The only way Chris could do the big parts better would be to use pre-preg, which is fabric that's already got it's optimal amount of resin built in and won't cure until you bake it. Pre-preg is a WAAAAAY more expensive material, where infusion uses more reasonably-priced materials but more sophistication in the tooling and processes than typical open molding.

In my limited experience, I don't see bagged parts as 50 time stronger for 1/10 of the weight, but can imagine that compared to a really well-done (ehem, Correct Craft) hand lay, the same hull might be 30% lighter, will not have any voids or delaminations (ehem, Airbus rudders), and will not have any of the interruptions like chunks of resin that cause stress risers. The fabric is placed when dry (no rush to get stuff positioned before it cooks off) so an average guy can get MUCH more consistent results. Every single layer of fabric is compressed and contains darn near exactly the right amount of resin (don't recall if it's like 25% of the weight of the part should be resin and 75% fabric). Almost every single air bubble is pulled out, and if you tested the two to failure, the hand laid hull would fail much earlier even if you chose to take the 30% weight savings. Another option would be to add 30% more structure to match the weight of the open mold part. Then you're talking much more than 30% stronger (more material but no voids, delams, resin pockets, stress risers). Remember that the resin's job is to hold the load-carrying fibers in place - by weight, more resin means less fiber and a weaker part. Varying amounts of resin across a part makes the part either more flexible or more brittle and losing consistency kills the strength of your part.

Nobody wants to be the most anal guy around, but when you buy a used boat, isn't that the type of guy you're looking for? In terms of crafting something out of fiberglass, some people are plenty happy with doing it the way it's been done for years, but when an engineer sees a vacuum-cured part alongside a good hand-laid one, his wheels will turn in one direction only. It's not so much a question of whether a towboat so needs all this strength in a hull, it's just basic workmanship skills and a desire to make sure that a hungover fiberglass guy is not gonna build you a lemon. Ever. There are also environmental reasons that the broader industry is moving towards closed-molding, but the big thing for me is just how crude conventional layup is compared to vacuum molding. Why invest all the effort into hull design and layup schedules and then stop short when you could have a lean, mean, and repeatable part?

Get right down to it, in the long haul a part like this will probably be cheaper to make because the really hard work is done during design of the part and process, not in the daily production.

Hopefully someone will man up and order one made 100% of carbon fiber. THAT would be a sick beast. How'd you like a hull with the same 1/2" of carbon used in a 787 wing skin?
Old     (tlb)      Join Date: Feb 2003       08-08-2006, 12:19 PM Reply   
We sold our SAN at the end of last year and have been without a boat this year (sucks).. I won't go another summer without a boat.. I'm looking to buy this fall or winter.. The new x-2 had my interest until reviews of the wake..
If Chris comes out with a 21' I will seriously consider buying one. I like never having to fill a fat sack or add lead to get a decent wake..
Old    buttskimmer            08-08-2006, 2:47 PM Reply   
Sounds strangely familar to glastrons VEC system. Not only do you get an even layer through out the boat, use less resin because its machine controlled, less hull thickness because the resin and fiber are controlled better(machine) and are of superior quality. I also agree on the eviromental side - much cleaner.
Got a look at the prep production boat this past weekend. Jury is still out because of time and water depth. Reread Jeff Walkers surfing solutions on Wake world - had a step in the surf wake ?
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-08-2006, 4:28 PM Reply   
Steve Wick... You dont need warranty!!! Just buy the boat... if it breaksdown... Buy the newer model!!! Its a good excuse to upgrade... or get a color change...
Old     (luchog)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-08-2006, 5:53 PM Reply   
Chris, thank you for your quick and sincere answer.
So with chopped fiberglass and a 5.7 engine we could say that the Epic 21' would be around 50k?

what other boats are on the 48-52k price range?
Old     (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-08-2006, 6:17 PM Reply   

well said.

A Carbon Fiber hull would be sick. That'd blow apart any $60k target price. Lets say $160k? Probably weight in at 2500lbs. That'd be cool.

Aside, the thing that is confusing to me about this thread, is that it seems there is a general ripping of Epic for not delivering an X-Star equivalent boat at Moomba pricing.

If you want a Moomba priced boat, go buy a Moomba.
Old     (wallyworld)      Join Date: Jan 2003       08-08-2006, 9:07 PM Reply   
if the EPIC hull is made like a glastron then I feel sorry for them. Glastron's are not far from Bayliner in I/O quality.
Old     (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       08-08-2006, 9:23 PM Reply   
Hey Scott,
Just a note on the Epic wakesurfing test. There are some issues with rudder alignment and perfect pass not working. I think that the rudder issue could have a great effect on the surf wake as the goofy side was not as pronounced. We will be retesting and dialing in the Epic in the near future. The great thing about the surfwake is that it is very surfable at 15 mph. This make the experience more like the ocean.
Old    buttskimmer            08-09-2006, 8:13 AM Reply   
The way its made maybe simular - not to say the same quality. The glastrons hulls are far superior to Bayliner - its the stuff they put in them and the way they finish them. This is new technol. to the boat business. Larson hulls are made the same way up to about 24ft in lenght.
Having been in the tank trailer business for many years - the lined tankers that use resin/fiber materals to protect the tanks from acids and caustics - I have seen great installation jobs and very poor ones. The new tech stuff here is to make the entire tank out of that material in a new manufacturing process.
Taking the human part out of the install has made the tanks much better. Same idea has worked for boats and in the future I would guess that more manufactures will go that way.
Dennis - the wakeplate was non-functioning and stuck in the middle, that might have something to do with it. Like I said the jury is out. Things go wrong with boats - I do however like the Volvo power in the boat - very strong pull!!!!
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-09-2006, 8:47 AM Reply   
Just a question... if you are a marketing a new product... and dealers currently have demos in their hands...

What is a boat that is not 100% in perfect operating fashion being demoed by the public?

In my honest opinion, you only get one chance to make a memorable fisrt impression... don't you want that one to be a memorable positive impression.

Rudders not lined up? Trim tab not functioning? Etc.

Should these not be tested by the people who you think would know best how to ensure perfect operation and how to make the adjustments before hitting the hands and eyes of the public?

If there are only a handful of these boats out there... make sure they are perfect!

I am not a marketing major, but as a buyer of any product, I want to know what the product can do... not what it should be able to do if everything is working properly.

Also, doesn't instill confidence when you see something that is less than 6 months old with problems.

Another opinion... I would rather have one demo in the market place that is perfect... than 10... where they are "almost" perfect.

To me... as a start up company... money is too valuable to let things go out the door that are less than perfect.

Make a perfect demo product exactly the way you want them to be. And no doubt, you will sell lots!

If you make a product that has features that are mssing or do not operate properly... and you will lose potential buyers.

I am still at a loss when I read the feedback of how this or that wasn't working... how did that boat get int he hands of a potential buyer without the boat being in perfect operating condition?
Old     (wallyworld)      Join Date: Jan 2003       08-09-2006, 9:01 AM Reply   
anyone heard of QC at EPIC???
Old     (luchog)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-09-2006, 9:40 AM Reply   
I know bayliners are cheap boats and suposedly bad built, but I'm yet to see one with a major structural problem.
Anyone has pics on this?

(Message edited by luchog on August 09, 2006)
Old    buttskimmer            08-09-2006, 1:37 PM Reply   
Not a business major either I am guessing. Hopefully you are not talking about me as I am not John Q public.
There is perfect business sense to it. You have to build some boats (or widgets) to see if your idea has merit, need in the market place. During this time you work out problems with the boat, test all equipment,maybe even incorp. some new ideas that the public comes up once they see your ideas. Along with all that, by building the boats you get a better handle on the costs to build it in production. All of which ( and more) is required before anyone will lend you money to get this off the ground.
So why not let the public see it - test it - add their ideas. It only serves to make it better.

It didn't turn me off seeing the boat this way. After many years of building things myself, tearing stuff totally apart to repair things - I can see through the dirt. Hopefully others can.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-09-2006, 6:44 PM Reply   
Scott, there is a major difference between "testing" and having options that aren't working properly.

When this or that isn't working, I wonder if it will be of value to me. I want a product that works and is reliable.

If you put a trim tab on a boat... make sure it is functional.. then you can "test" to see if it offers improvement to the boat.

If you put dual rudders on the boat.. make sure it steers properly.. then you can "test:" to see if it offers improvement to the boat.

You get the idea... there is a difference to testing... or showing how unreliable your product might be as a potential owner.
Old     (malibuboarder75)      Join Date: Jan 2004       08-09-2006, 8:45 PM Reply   
Hey Derek, how do you know about the 787 wing? Do you work for Boeing. I just spent most of my summer working on the composite thrust reversers.
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-10-2006, 2:53 AM Reply   
Good explanation Derek...our resident engineer :-) And I'm sure he could fill you in on the Boeing stuff as well Leo. About the QC on our pre-production stuff - I know these boats have not gone out in perfect condition. The goal with these initial boats was to learn a lot about the build process, try different parts out, and spread the stoke for the 23v by getting them to all those interested. Hopefully everyone that has been in these first ten boats are fully aware that they are pre-production boats and they are just out there to let people see the potential of a new offering. Most people have appreciated the pull and been able to comment on the performance of the boat in general and give us great feedback for the new 23v which we will unveil at Surf Expo. Added features like - an all fiberglass floor with a new flooring material - an anchor locker up front - an easier to use cooler - and even more cup holders have all come from riders feedback on these initial boats. I know we have had our problems out there and completely abandoned some vendor relationships because of them. But these difficulties will only serve to make our production boats that much better. And even though information travels at the speed of light now and some of the negative issues with these initial boats would have never been discussed so freely 5 years ago as they are today on beautiful WW, I would still take the feedback and testing knowledge we have gained from these first boats over our Epic crew spending 3 years trying to gain the same amount of feedback. My marketing sense tells me that it will be our fully tested and proven production boats over the next year that will build Epic's reputation. All of our advanced design and build techniques will pay dividends as we press into production in the coming months. And the resin infusion is just one aspect but a strong one. The extremely low resin to fiber ratios that we are able to achieve truly do make a better and longer lasting composite part. It is very near pre-preg efficiency with a lot less effort to use it and a lot less $$$. My car company is utilizing the same technology to build a small fuel efficient car that has greater strength than a steel vehicle with much MUCH less weight. Check out the cover of the new Popular Science Magazine, the car is on the cover with a nice article and 2 page pic inside. And the military and aerospace applications we are exploring are limitless. Basically, this fiberglass technique is "The Bomb"... Boats built with traditional methods won't fall apart on you but as I said before "I made a decision early on in this process to build a "better" boat" which included developing better manufacturing processes along the way. Hopefully that along with all the great features of the boat and selling the 23v for what I feel is a reasonable price will peak peoples interest and get them behind the boat for a test pull :-)
Old    surfdad            08-10-2006, 5:21 AM Reply   
Kyle is taking this way too personally for me to give him any credibility, to me it sounds like he got his feelings hurt.

I've been able to test the boat, and it was made clear to me that it was a pre-production model and that Chris wanted input for use in the final production model. Just like when software is released in beta format - it's UNDERSTOOD that there will be issues, let the beta testers find them quickly so that the final product is a good as it can get. To me, from a biz standpoint, getting that sort of feedback quickly allows the manufacturing environment to make adjustments quickly, and it costs you virtually nothing. PLUS, if you get input from potential final consumers, they actually feel like they have a stake in the product development - you create brand loyalty from the onset - more than a little bit "smart" (there is some research in this regard that was done by Purdue, I think on a grant by Microsoft, and looked into the reduction in correction times of finding issues by sending beta tests outside the company because you remove the "don't say anything" mentality AND that there was this dynamic created between folks allowed this "insider knowledge" and the company that involved them).

Virtually all MAJOR software manufactures avail themselves of this methodology with new product releases.
Old     (hal2814)      Join Date: Feb 2006       08-10-2006, 6:13 AM Reply   
While I do think Kyle is being a bit hard on the rudder and trim tab issues (from what I gather the rudders were functional but not optimal for wakesurfing), comparing the testing process of a boat to the software development cycle is a bit foolish. It's very easy to modify software even in very drastic ways and rebistribute a new version and/or patch at very little material cost. An issue with a boat is not always so easy to rectify.

In a day, I've been through about 40 iterations of a software package during pre-alpha testing. (Can there really be such thing as pre-alpha? That never made sense to me.) That's just not possible in boat testing unless we're talking about purely software issues like fuel injection, automatic speed control, etc.

And that's not neccessarily a bad thing. Software engineers have gotten into bad habits because software is so easy to fix and patch now. A lot of them are relying on heuristics instead of proof. A lot of them are just trying solutions and seeing if they work instead of spending time upfront to come up with the best solution. A boat builder doesn't have that luxury/crutch.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-10-2006, 6:46 AM Reply   
Jeff Walker... Again, I think there is a misunderstanding. I am not taking this personally at all... and as for feelings getting hurt... this is a boat project... not a life altering moment... so my feelings are not involved.

What I was simply stating is that there is a huge difference between a trial process and a non-functional item.

For example...

If you want to see how a trim tab will affect the size and shape of the wake... it needs to be working.

If you want to see if dual rudders will improve the handling of the boat... the rudders need to be aligned in a fashion that allows the boat to at least drive in a straight line.

Here is a classic example of what I mean about testing and the proving ground process.

Lets say Chris puts the 5.7L motor into the 23V boat. With full ballast the boat doesn't plane. Would you as a buyer think to yourself... I want this boat with the 8.1L... or would you think... Lets try it with the 8.1L motor.

Chris is not stupid, he wouldnt put a boat out that doesn't function as it was meant to be.

So that is why I had to question... allow testers to test the boat the way it is meant to be.

Yes I know there are innovative ideas that may or may not work which testers will determine for themselves and pass along to Chris.

But come on? A trim tab. That is not a new innovation... it is simply an add on product that wasn't imoperable. So I say fix it and get the boat back on the water.

Boat testing versus software development.

When I test beta version software, I know I am testing something for its main use. If I like the functionality of the software then I look forward to future releases.

When I test a boat that doesn't have ballast installed, or trim tab not working, or has a different motor, or is different configuration (direct vs v-drive)... you cannot truly get a feel if the boat is going to perform the way I want.

So you try and test drive the boat that is as close as possible to the one you end up ordering. Maybe the difference is the color.

If you have never ridden in or owned a Malibu... would you feel confident going to a dealer and test driving the boat and having a true feel for the performance when the dealer tells you that you can't use the Power Wedge because it is broken. Do you know what the difference is with and without the Wedge? Do you wonder if you order a new boat will your Power Wedge break too? My guess is you may strike that one off your list and look at other boats.

I want to see Epic succeed. The purpose of offering feedback is to hopefully help the success of Epic.

I think the boat has exceeded the developers expectations... so maybe they don't get as concerned when there are minor gliches.

As a potential boat buyer... Minor gliches concern me.

Knock on wood, none of my boats have ever had to go into the shop for any more than an oil change!!!

As of right now... I will be boatless come Sept 1. So I am considering all the boats on the market as my next boat purchase.


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