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Old    surfdad            08-10-2006, 7:46 AM Reply   
Kyle, from my perspective, it feels like you keep mixing your analogies to justify your position...and the impression you give me isn't "I want them to succeed" the impression I get from your posts is you knock them REPEATEDLY and then say you aren't. I could be wrong, but it's what I keep "hearing" in your posts. For example:

"So you try and test drive the boat that is as close as possible to the one you end up ordering. Maybe the difference is the color. "

The Epic wasn't delivered or tested as a final product, it was delivered as a pre-production model. WITH the understanding that there would be issues and PLEASE tell us what you find good and bad.

If the boat were, as you assert, delivered as here's the product, ready to buy...I'd have been bothered, but it wasn't. Making analogies that assert that, are confusing, at best. It was delivered for our testing just as described - beta test it and give us the feedback.

From what I understand they WANT to figure out what the production issues are NOW, so like a rudder misalgnment comes up...if it's lack of training of assembly personnel or maybe it's whacked in delivery, they have represented they want to know NOW prior to ramping production up.

Anyway...just my 2 cents.
Old     (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       08-10-2006, 7:49 AM Reply   


from what I gather the rudders were functional but not optimal for wakesurfing

The rudder were functional but were sucking for wakeboarding too,not just wakesurfin.

I like the pre-production model 10X better,more of 100X better......well the wake at least!
Old     (bremsen)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-10-2006, 9:07 AM Reply   
Its my impression these aren't really "demos" in the traditional sense. A demo would be a dealer taking prospective customers out on a production boat. It appears as though its mostly been dealers/riders by invitation, not John Q Public. I would offer the analogy that what Chris is doing with his pre-production boats is the wake equivilant of a focus group. Not only will he get valuable feedback on design and functionality, but as the boat is put through its paces the mechanicals will show their weak points. The important part is that Chris/Epic listen to the feedback and make the engineering changes so the final production product is the best offering possible.
Old     (toyotafreak)      Join Date: Sep 2003       08-10-2006, 11:21 AM Reply   
Leo, you've got more firsthand on the 787 than I ever will. I'm just a fan of anything carbon and have spent much more time on lately than wakeworld :-(

Chris, you know I just like hearing myself speak. Hope it doesn't come out like I'm talking down to anyone - just trying to take the time to explain the basic stuff because it's important. Whenever I'm out of line, please correct me. I don't know your process, but spent way too much time in my garage bagging wings and carving fuselage plugs. The whole point was finding the best way to get accurate parts with the proper resin content and get the process so that it was repeatable. Which is what your methods are all about. The others will switch over too, no doubt about that.

Here's a quote from someone who states he's backing Chris and appreciates innovation and isn't personally involved: You dont need warranty!!! Just buy the boat... if it breaksdown... Buy the newer model!!! Its a good excuse to upgrade... or get a color change... Chris has taken the high road in public, but Kyle's for some reason acting like a bitter little boy. Maybe a peace pipe is in order. How do you spell cumbaya?
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-10-2006, 3:21 PM Reply   
Warranty on boats is not a huge deal. Remember the boats are built with warrantied items from the manufacturers of each of the individual parts of the boat.

The hull is what I think people are wondering about. Well of course they will do a lifetime hull warranty. Who wouldn't?

Also, Chris has stated that the boat is the same technology used in racing yachts, other sea worthy vessels and space shuttle parts etc...

So there is no need to question the production methods of the actual gel coat and fiberglass.

Funny how people think that I am bitter etc. I'm not really understanding where that is coming from.

I have way more questions about certain things about the boat in which I do not post on a public message board.

I am purchasing a new boat this winter... if I am looking at a new company's boat with no history... I want the peace of mind that the boat will have some worth down the road.

Whether the company still exists affects that... but also the quality of production will affect that too...

Look at Toyota Epic's. Even though they aren't being built anymore, I think people have faith in their quality of construction.

I have made many major purchases from companies that have not been around for long... buying new models etc... but I have done thorough research on how and what they were about. And have taken the chance.

My opinions are not to bash Chris or his boat.

This post is to offer opinions. So help Chris out by offering opinions... not trying to attack someone elses opinions.
Old     (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       08-21-2006, 1:54 PM Reply   
This was out on the river I ride on quite a bit about two weeks ago. I'm trying to find the rest of the pics. Unfortunately , I'd been sipping on grandpa's cough syrup a little too much to enjoy a ride behind it.

Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-21-2006, 3:40 PM Reply   
Keep your eyes open for the latest Epic that came out. I believe it went to Florida for the boat test. It is the one with the new deck and integrated floor. I assume that the all in one deck, floor, bulkhead will increase the strength of the boat. Thus, less flex throughout the entire boat will create a much stronger boat throughout.
Old     (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-21-2006, 10:55 PM Reply   
Hey Chris,
What compression drivers & horns lens & mid-bass drivers are you using for your transom pro-audio system? (if it's appropriate to answer..:-)

Did you get a chance to hear the Epic stereo? what was your impression?
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-22-2006, 10:28 AM Reply   
A friend of mine is the one who fined tuned the last boat that went out. Most of the speakers were the Calrion Marine line. I personally like the Infiniti's in the prototype. But there were only 4 6x9s in the prototype. Now there are 8 6.5s Clarion marine speakers.

The prototype sounded great. The rear storage acted as the enclosure for the rear firing transome speakers... so it added for mid bass in the cockpit... but full range to the rider. Because the sound was emitting from the water level... it sounded loud and clear from 80 feet out... and if tuned properly.. you can have a conversation in the cockpit...

I assume there will be some people that do some overkill and add some NVS or something like that on the tower... I know I would... just for something to do.

This is not the first boat I have seen with transom audio. A friend of mine who has a Maristar put two 10s right behind the swim platform. It sounded great!

FYI.. if you see a black and white Maristart with Transom Speakers... it is a stolen boat... his truck and boat were stolen a few years ago.
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-22-2006, 11:22 AM Reply   
The transom Audio is comprised of 8 - 7" Clarion Marine Coax Speakers. And it B loud :-)
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       08-22-2006, 12:33 PM Reply   
The boat we rode behind needed NVS's just to outblare the exhaust noise......

I'm still waiting for a real ride behind a finished boat. The vector steer, perfect pass and exhaust weren't quite ready on the boat we rode behind.

The wake was big though and the big block did a proper job of getting it on plane.
Old     (knwebs)      Join Date: Sep 2005       08-22-2006, 2:17 PM Reply   
Chris, how long does it take to fill the balast? I've heard 20 minutes. Never seen one in Oklahoma but I'd love for you to sell one in this market so I can take a look/see. I'd jump onto your team but love my Calabria too much to depart from them.
Old     (wakerider42)      Join Date: May 2002       08-22-2006, 2:35 PM Reply   
I don't know Chris personally, but from what I can tell, he is a bada$$. I haven't really followed the history of Epic except for reading some posts here and there. I wish I had the balls to take such a big risk on something like a boat company. It's something that probably most of us have talked about, but that not too many actually do. I've designed and built some pretty cool stuff in my life, but haven't had the balls to actually do something as awesome as what he is doing. He's really charging it and pushing his potential. It would be cool to be a part of something like that. Probably more exciting than tooling around at a big corporation (like me!)

People also shouldn't be criticizing what he is doing at all. I mean, look at what he is up against. Just the fact that he (and a solid team, I am sure) actually has a boat for legitimate riders to experience is pretty amazing in terms of the financial capability that I can only imagine that would take. It sounds like he incorporates constructive criticism very well. People shouldn't outright bash him for anything.

I really hope Epic succeeds.

Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       08-22-2006, 3:18 PM Reply   
Yeah, Danny, I agree. Cool boat, awsome ideas and innovation, but very stout competition.
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-23-2006, 5:05 AM Reply   
I appreciate the kind words Danny. The industry is stout and most other companies out there make great boats that people love. Epic is a bit different...I mean...I built this thing in may driveway soo from the start I simply had to do things differently. Mostly $$$$ restricted me from getting things done quickly but the time I couldn't afford to press on only gave me more time to think about the design and refine features I would personally love to have. Sitting in your garage for hours on end starring at a half finished plug certainly helps your mind wonder. So I thought of things like the transom audio and vector system early on in the process. It was kind of like filling my own wish list:

If I had the perfect wake boat I would want it to-

Have a HUGE wake, so I'll need an awesome hull design and LOTS of ballast

Be easy to steer with all that weight

Be able to crank the tunes loud and clear to me while I'm pulling those wicked Fashion Airs behind the boat but I would still like to talk to my friends inside the boat when the rider is jamming out to the tunes(those putting the speakers on the transom)

And last but certainly not least, I want a boat that I can take out in salt or fresh and beat the hell out of it. Then take it home and leave it in the street and then go out the next day and beat it up some more. I don't want to have to be a slave to cleaning my boat and fighting a never ending corrosion battle. And if I need to change the oil I want to just change the oil. I don't want to drag it to my dealer and wait for them to get it done. Even if I have a great dealer who gets stuff done right away I would still rather spend that time on the water.

Anyways, I built my dream boat and am now building a company to make my dream boat for other people. Of course my dream might not be for everyone. That is ok. I have tweaked the 23v tremendously over the last year to make my dream boat more complete(sometimes my dreams are a bit fuzzy). That is where friends and people who have been able to ride these few initial boats have really helped. Their feedback has made the boats we are unveiling at Surf Expo 100% better than what I first took out on Mission Bay to test the wake almost two years ago now.

I think I am just babbling now...The bottom line is I hope people enjoy what my dream boat has evolved into. I will continue to make it, and the other two models we are bringing out, the best boats I can. I appreciate all the support and feedback. And yes it was a CRAZY and HUGE risk to give up being a stock broker to follow a dream but it seems to be coming together nicely. I hope everyone enjoys hearing the story and how it has changed my life and possibly the world :-) The fiberglass technology I developed for the 23v is now being used for a car that could really change the way people look at automotive technology. We even made the front cover of Popular Science with it this month :-) WakeBoarding technology making the world a better/cleaner/safer place to inhabit. It is certianly interesting what ideas a driveway can spawn in just a couple of yearsUpload

Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-23-2006, 9:57 AM Reply   
Chris, just wondering if that car is your answer to the new MB Tomcat. They look very similar. So what if it will get 300 mpg... what kind of wake will that bad boy throw?
Old    smooth_worm            08-24-2006, 10:37 PM Reply   
My spy pics... Looks awesome. Not sure about that tower though. I assume it will be changed for production models?

Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-24-2006, 11:07 PM Reply   
Mike... That is the very first prototype... lots has changed since that one... They now have a Samson Tower... in my opinion... more functional... but not much better looking... same tower that is being used on all the Tiges. Construction method is different. Motor is different. Interior is different... etc etc etc.. The list goes on... That is the new trailer!!!
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-24-2006, 11:16 PM Reply   
Some pics of the 2nd one ever built... Now the DVS boat...

Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-24-2006, 11:17 PM Reply   
More pics
Old     (garret_s)      Join Date: Apr 2006       08-25-2006, 10:53 AM Reply   
wow. That boat is absolutely gorgeous. The black just looks menacing, but the white is also very slick. I think, however, that I would like to see some sort of a design on the white, maybe like the tige limited sticker. Great job, looking forward to riding one of these. Coming close to KC any time soon? I would be willing to take some good, high res shots...
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-25-2006, 11:48 AM Reply   
Being from the town these boats are being built in... You get to hear lots of stuff about the Epic Boat...

Rumor has it... Parks said this is the sickest boat ever...

Rumor has it... 2007 Waterski Mag "Boat of the Year"

Rumor has it... If you havent already put a deposit on one... you may not be able to get one for awhile. The first 2000 boats are already spoken for... That would mean 2007, 2008, and 2009's are all sold out. Put your deposit in for the 2010 model!

I wanted to buy one, but due to some of my comments, it doesn't look like my purchase would be very well received.

If anyone can offer any thoughts of what else I should consider for next Spring.. let me know...

So far.. Tige RZ2, X-Star, SAN SV211, Sanger V215.

I just like big clean wakes and reliability. Not too fussy.

Or if someone has there name down on an Epic... Maybe I can buy yours...

There will be lots of them... soon... Keep your eyes open for them... I would expect you will see lots in California, Oregon, Washington... within the next 6-8 months.
Old     (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-25-2006, 12:59 PM Reply   
That dash is sick! That's one area where I think many manufactures lack -- (MB comes to mind first off.) That dash is much better looking than any MB's dash. Quite impressive, considering Epic did that right out of the starting gate.

The only thing better would be a suction cup Grass Skirt Hula Girl.
Old     (malibuboarder75)      Join Date: Jan 2004       08-25-2006, 2:45 PM Reply   
Hey Chris,

I have an idea to make your boat better. You may have already thought about it, but it was something that I was thinking about to make the boat super quiet.
Old    bocephus            08-25-2006, 3:04 PM Reply   
"The fiberglass technology I developed for the 23v"

What the hell? He now developed the fiberglass technology? I thought it was the same process Burt used, "methods are the same Burt Rutan used to put a man into Space". He implies that other wakeboard boats use "chopped" glass in their hulls, which is not true. So Chris, did you revolutionize the fiberglass industry or what, which is it?
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-25-2006, 11:53 PM Reply   
Yes, the Fiberglass technology "I" developed. Resin infusion has been around for years now, but noone is using it on large parts like boats and certainly nothing in the volumes we are ramping up to. The infusion processes that I have developed are unique to the world or composites and allows us to produce things like the 23v and the Aptera Car in volume. I don't know of a single tournament boat that is built today(aside from our 23v) that does not use chopped glass or chopped strand mat. I am not tremendously familiar with your Sanger's build process Bocephus but they at very least use chop in their skin coats and most likely as backing with any cloth that they hand lay. I am not bashing any other company's build process though. Boats have been built both completely and partially with chop for decades now and it is a very proven and certainly worthy build method for tournament boats. You can expect to enjoy your boat for many many years if it is built with chop. The real difference is weight and strength. The Infused Composites in our 23v is simply lighter and stronger than anything made with traditional fiberglass processes. Does a tournament boat need to be stronger? Possibly not, but I started from scratch here and wanted to build the best boat possible. This included refining manufacturing methods to produce the boat "I feel" is the best built. And the nearly 1300lbs of weight saving just in the glass with our Infusion Process makes the 23v incredibly nimble on the water when unweighted with ballast and a MUCH easier boat to tow. "Save some gas and buy a 23v" That should be our new catch phrase :-)

And what is this "Silent Running" technology you speak of Leo? It isn't a Worm Drive is it :-)
Old     (malibuboarder75)      Join Date: Jan 2004       08-26-2006, 6:54 AM Reply   
Its pretty simple, but i don't want to post it on here.
Old    bocephus            08-26-2006, 9:28 AM Reply   
Chris, can you please point me in the direction of the nearest fountain of youth, time machine, and perpetual motion machine, I'm sure you have those in your garage also. One other thing, can you ask Bill Gates, the next time he's over for dinner to return Warren Buffet's Ipod so I can copy his play list again, I lost my copy.

Old     (tlb)      Join Date: Feb 2003       08-26-2006, 9:41 AM Reply   
I assume you have the 21' on the drawing board..
Are there going to be any design changes or will it be a smaller version of the 23v?
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-26-2006, 3:02 PM Reply   
The 21' is on the drawing board and should be finished up by the end of the year and ready for dealers to try. It will retain the same running surface as the 23v and will just have a little less interior space and about 800lbs less ballast.

And Bo, I know it is odd to see a guy who started on a new boat design in his driveway come up with a lot of new features and technologies. But it has been a slow evolution with everything. The boat design has evolved over the last four years and the composite technology has been tweaked over the last two. It has been a loooong and expensive road to travel but I think we are on to something here with both the 23v and the composite technology. And I will try to get you Buffet's playlist but I don't know if you will want it as he listens to mostly Brittney Spears and Ashley Simpson... :-)

And just hit me up with any ideas you would like to discuss Leo
Old     (wakerider42)      Join Date: May 2002       08-26-2006, 4:41 PM Reply   

Is there a reason you are trying to be such a smart ass in your above comments? Maybe I missed something.....

Chris Anthony is probably doing a lot more exciting SHIZZ than you could ever hope for.


PS sell your sanger and buy a real wakeboarding boat....if you can actually jump the wake....

(Message edited by wakerider42 on August 26, 2006)
Old    sking55405            08-26-2006, 7:35 PM Reply   
Dude i agree that he shouldn't be as smart (maybe he's not maybe theres something that I dont know about) but I've ridden behind lots of boats and the sanger is still the best wake I've ever ridden IMHO
Old    bocephus            08-26-2006, 10:27 PM Reply   
If you have to ask why,then you haven't read a lot of my posts...I am an ass. It looks like Chris can take it though. I just think he might be a little full on the blowing smoke up the you know what fluid...
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-26-2006, 11:54 PM Reply   
I am happy to take criticism and certainly know that there will many who will be hard to convince on the subject of Epic. I don't expect anyone to give me an inch of credit until we are proven on and off the water although I greatly appreciate ALL the support and words of encouragement. Feedback/criticism/disbelief only serves to help Epic as a company, and me as a person, learn what we need to improve and focus on when it comes to informing people about what we are about. If people don't like something about our boats we will make it better and if people don't believe what we are saying then we will have to find a way to prove it to them. I know we will be doing a lot of both over the next few years. With peoples' feedback we will improve our boats and by getting these boats out in front of people we will prove the technology wrapped up in these boats. I am nothing but an optimist about Epic's future and hope people enjoy hearing the story of how we came to be and keep up with us through the next few years and possibly take a ride behind one of my creations...and maybe even choose one of our boats to sit in their driveway :-)
Old     (bmh2208)      Join Date: Apr 2004       08-29-2006, 11:09 AM Reply   
Chris...Coming from a marine/ocean engineering background, I applaud you on your efforts and pre-engineering done to come up with your product. From the hydro/fluiddynamic analysis to the usage of new and exotic materials, your product it top notch.

I am a little confused about your above post when you stated..."Yes, the Fiberglass technology "I" developed". Could you explain to me and others what it is about your procedure that makes it new technology than what has been done for years...

Examples of large parts for boats and in volume:

I know Azimut (motor yacht manufacturer) is using the process for a few of their models.

Not trying to call you out, I just wanted to know what it is about your procedures that constitute this being "new technology".

BTW, are you using something similar to polyworx software to analyze the best flow patterns and injection points to maximize manufacturing potentions?
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-29-2006, 12:35 PM Reply   
Vacuum pressure lamination is not new technology. I think anyone that has ever built anything that requires fusing two or more parts together, have used some form of infusion process. I have a friend who builds acousitic guitars and has been using the infusion process for over a decade. He uses a small compressor and large plastic bags and injects glue via a syringe. A cool little set up.

The nice thing when infusing small parts, you can visually see where the bonding material is required to properly infuse the layers.

I can only imagine that it would be difficult over large areas like a boat hull especially when you can't see through the layers to see where the resin has saturated and where it hasnt. Where it hasnt creats a major delamination issue.

At least with hand layed and chopper gun applications... you can be assured that all cloth or mat has been saturated with resin... the rolling process is based on attention to detail and proper rolling... assuming you have a roller who is getting rid of all air bubbles... you should have a good hull...

With the infusion process... I am guessing you don't really know until the resin has kicked and you take the bag off... and you pull the hull out of the mold... whether you have a good hull or more scrap material...

Lets just hope that the decision is made before the boat is built... so the factory finds the faulty hull before the consumer "boat owner" does.

I like any process or technology that can improve effiencies and costs. But I don't care if it doesn't offer me any value as the end user.

IMHO I think hand laid, chopper gun, or infusion... if they are all done PROPERLY... then I would expect you should have similar quality as in strength and longevity. I am guessing the processes vary in cost, time, and weight. But if the cost isn't passed on to the end consumer... who cares.

The other thing... how many "properly built boats" that have been "properly cared for" have been but to rest because of hull failure? I am guessing not many... I look out on the lake and see old boats that are still going strong! Most were hand laid or chopper gunned.

As for "high end racing yachts" or "off-shore racers" etc use the same technology doesnt matter to me either... Because they are sponsored by corporations with bottom-less pockets... so they can and do expect failures... they are on the edge... same with race cars... they don't want failures... but do have deep pockets to fix when there is failure.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-29-2006, 12:38 PM Reply   
As for the Epic... the infusion process saves overall weight... thus improving efficiency of gas mileage of the car..

Approx what is the weight difference vs hand laying or chopper gunned boat?

Also.. is there a cost reduction by doing resin infusion.. or is it more expensive?

At the end of the day... I don't think many buyers care how a boat is built... as long as it is reliable... and that they can get the best boat for the price.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-29-2006, 12:40 PM Reply   
Epic has a cool ad in the Wakeboard Magazine... but all it has is the Website Address... which has never been updated? Who is taking care of the marketing? Isn't marketing one of the most key components of introducing a new product to the market?
Old    bocephus            08-29-2006, 12:42 PM Reply   
That's what I was referring to.

(Message edited by bocephus on August 29, 2006)
Old     (jiujitsuabs)      Join Date: Jul 2005       08-29-2006, 1:31 PM Reply   
100% agree. I run out of websites to pour over and I'm wanting them to update their website.
Old     (jiujitsuabs)      Join Date: Jul 2005       08-29-2006, 1:37 PM Reply   
One last thing, companies have to realize that people love doing research online. You are judged by consumers by how cool/interactive/informative your website is. Smart companies realize this and capatalize on it.
Old    bcboatman            08-29-2006, 5:04 PM Reply   
Saw this pink Epic in Penticton over Ironman Weekend. It is the boat that was given to the local Girls Wakeboard Club. It looked ok from a distance, but as I got closer, it looked really ROUGH. I also heard that they wanted a Pink boat, but this boat was one that came back to the factory after the hull developed large cracks in the hull. So they used a Pink Wrap after the hull was fixed. The funny part is that the girls never put oil in the motor. Needless to say. It needs a new motor. I hear this is the second motor issue. The first motor that blew up was the Camo DVS Boat. If I were to buy an Epic, I don't think I would want a vinyl wrap. It seems to be bad luck.

Epic is a brand new boat company and if I am correct, this is the first time we are seeing a Volvo powered tournament style boat.

If you have built less that 10 boats, why so many problems with the Volvo's? It seems that you are having to replace 20% of the motors to date. That seems like a high percentage to me.

I have never had a problem with any Indmar motor. I know there are problems here and there with anyones motors, but 20%?

Have you considered using a different supplier?

Old     (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-29-2006, 6:57 PM Reply   
"The funny part is that the girls never put oil in the motor. Needless to say. It needs a new motor."

"If you have built less that 10 boats, why so many problems with the Volvo's?"

Are you fricken smoking crack?
Old     (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-29-2006, 7:04 PM Reply   

In your next post, try using facts rather than all hear-say. It's sad to see people like you with some alternative agenda bash a start-up boat company. In that entire message, you said one thing about the boat that you learned first hand. "it looked rough"

I think it's obvious to anyone reading that post that you're just trying to bash epic. And the fact that you've made ONE POST on wakeworld indicates to me that you probably work for the competition that is afraid of EPIC storming your market share. Further more, going off your theme of making stuff up, since you sited Indmar as a quality engine, that indicates to me that you work for Malibu or Master Craft or Indmar itself.

(Message edited by yosquire on August 29, 2006)
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-29-2006, 7:27 PM Reply   
Keep in mind that some wakeboard clubs do not take great care of their boats. I run a wakeboard school/club. We make it a point that the oil gets checked every time it is filled with gas. Also once per week it is thourougly scrubbed down inside and out. If you don't take care of a boat, it will be more likely to fail.

If I were trying to field test a product... I would want to have some control over the situation so that any problems would be kept for Epic's purposes, not for general public knowledge.

No matter the situation... engine breakdowns have to be a concern for any company, not just new companies.

It would be nice to keep that on the low down so it doesn't slow down the process of vringing the production boat to full swing in the market.
Old     (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-29-2006, 7:45 PM Reply   
Hummm... I suggest that Kyle and Raley are the same person.

Let's look at some facts:
* Kyle's post's above (earlier today) bash Epic.
* Kyle is from Penticton Canada.
* Kyle Runs a wakeboarding School (
* RadGalz is from Kelowna (

Oh...Kyle competes for business against RadGalz..humm.. let's continue.

* Raley Smith claims to be from Kelowna BC - same place as RadGalz.

* Raley saw the boat in Penticton, Kyle's home town.

* Kelowna and Penticton are on the same lake (,+bc&daddr=kelowna,+ bc&ie=UTF8&z=9&ll=49.685401,-119.608154&spn=0.721462,1.746826&om=1)

Could it be possible that Kyle has lost all of his female business to RADGALZ? So he spent all day bashing Epic, then makes up this Raley Smith account to bash RadGalz? ("they didn't put oil in it")

I wonder what IP address Kyle comes from verses what IP address Raley comes from? Dave?

I haven't played connect the dots since I was a little kid. But when you get done, if it walks like a duck, qwacks like a duck, and is slimy like a's probably a slimy duck.

(Message edited by yosquire on August 29, 2006)
Old     (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       08-29-2006, 8:23 PM Reply   
Craig, you're correct. Kyle and Raley's posts come from the same computer. A very sad and ill-advised method of promoting one's business.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-29-2006, 8:23 PM Reply   
Hey Craig. Great points you make. We here in the Okanagan and across the Province of BC are pretty lucky. It is a tight wakeboarding association. No one bashes each others clubs/schools. Most members are offered the same rates no matter which club they ride at. Our riding season is short. So I don't think anyone runs a club/school to make money... basically just do it as a hobby. Tough to make money when your business is only open a few months of the year. It is a fact that as owner/operators of these schools, we don't get to ride, so it is a very regular occurance that I go with or others come with me so we can ride too. Its not competition. We are a vacation destination and we are always sending business back and forth because we are booked up. At times we will even lend our boat to the other school if their boat is in for servicing.

Have you been behind the Epic? You seem to have strong opinions about other people's opinions.

What are your thoughts?

It throws a great wake... I had full use of it while the deal was being finalized to get it built here in Penticton.

I am the one who connected Chris with the manufacturing plant in Penticton.

There is nothing wrong with a boat looking "rough". The prototype was rough. But that was because these boats are being used and abused and being towed across the country for testing.

If you could see the prototype right now... you would be amazed how great the boat looks considering where it has travelled over the past 2 years!

They have done so many refinements to the boat.. the production model will be great. I wish they would update the website. I tell customers to check out the boat via the website, but it is all old information.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-29-2006, 8:42 PM Reply   
Hey David, what are the chances of doing a deal with Epic to be the Wakeworld Boat... you guys were great promoting the VLX.

Raley aka Jess is a young ripper (from Calgary) now going to school in Kelowna. I don't think his intention was to promote a business or bash someone else's business. Radgalz is a cool gig. He thought it was a funny story... not a bashing story.

I know everyone at the factory.

This is the story I heard. While using it at the school. The driver heard a strange noise, thought maybe they should bring it back to Penticton. Factory techs were thinking they would check to see what was wrong. When they checked, there was no oil in the motor. So now the motor is being replaced. I would assume it shouldn't take long. Just a re/re motor. Costly, but simple enough to do.

In my opinion, not much different than someone forgetting the boat plug, or leaving the leg down while towing out of the launch, or forgetting to hook the boat to the trailer... etc... they are funny... but costly errors. No big deal... Just another day at the boat launch.
Old     (tlb)      Join Date: Feb 2003       08-29-2006, 8:45 PM Reply   
Kyle, Why do you continue to bash Epic???
Looks to me like you just got busted using two different user names just to try to do more damage..
Old    bcboatman            08-29-2006, 8:45 PM Reply   
ha ha ha ha... some people have no sense of humor.

All I know is my parents told me if I went to school I could be anything I wanted to be.

So I chose to be a smart a$$!!!
Old     (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-29-2006, 9:03 PM Reply   
Kyle, Enough - you've lost. "Raley aka Jess is a young ripper (from Calgary) now going to school in Kelowna." Raley is 32, you are 33, and you call him "young"?

Kyle: "No one bashes each others clubs/schools."
Dave: "Craig, you're correct. Kyle and Raley's posts come from the same computer."


Kyle: "What are your thoughts?"
I think it's apparent that your tone through out this entire thread has been designed to tear down Epic in a covert attempt to see them fail. It's also apparent that there was some sort of arrangement or misunderstanding between you and Chris Anthony. Anyone who sits down and reads this entire thread will painfully see your character shine through as you're not very good at covering up your intentions. Chris Anthony has taken more flack on this thread than most people take in a year, how has he responded? IMO with highest level of professionalism.

Perhaps Chris has misspoke a time or two, perhaps some of his statements have been taken out of context. I too have misspoke, it can be difficult to articulate yourself with perfection on an online forum.

Kyle, you know the fiberglass technology Chris is using is top notch. I'm wondering if you work, or worked, at the factory in Penticton? As you know quite a lot about fiberglass technology. You can't tell me that the same process racecar teams use to build F1 and Indy car driver tubs produces a weak product. Remind you an Indy Car can take a head on collision with a wall at 200mph and the drivers feet, less than 3 feet from the front of the car, will not be crushed.

In sum, what most people on this thread suspected has now been discovered as truth. You are motivated to Damage Epic Wake Boats by reasons we'll never understand. It's a disgusting display.

(Message edited by yosquire on August 29, 2006)
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-29-2006, 9:27 PM Reply   
Double up had a great qoute on one of their rv's that really stuck with me..."mad love going out to all those hatin on us". I think its a said day when things like this happen.

Thanks for the "outing" Craig!

Edit: and Dave

(Message edited by liquidmx on August 29, 2006)
Old     (fullspeed)      Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Santa Cruz County CA       08-29-2006, 9:29 PM Reply   
Wow this has become an interesting thread. Thanks guys for the enjoyment. If I lived in the area of Wake Up Water Sports I would now think twice about giving them my money.

Kyle you get a big Capital "L" on your forehead for today. Ouch!!
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-29-2006, 9:29 PM Reply   
Hey Craig... back up a bit... hahaha...

Fact: I am not trying to damage Epic Wake Boats.

Fact: I have never been a part of Epic or the factory.

Fact: I would like to buy an Epic, when they are made available to a Canadian Dealer in this area.

Fact: If you talk to Chris, there has never been a misunderstanding what so ever.

Fact: I have never worked for the factory.

Fact: I have very close friends who work at the factory, whom rely on the success of this boat for their livelyhood.

Fact: I have no experience in fiberglass technology other than working on the odd wakeboard and hockey stick.

Fact: My boat is given to a driver/coach to help teach wakeboarding in our area. I do not make money with the operation. It is not a huge concern which boat I use every year because I am rarely on it, my boat and truck are left with many people who are responsible enough to take care of the boat and operate it in a responsible fashion.

Fact: My house is available for riders to come and stay throughout the summer.

Fact: We have brochures and decals available that we give out when we talk about the Epic boat when people ask about which boat they should buy.

Fact: My only grudge against Chris... He never did give me a hat!!!

This post is becoming useless.

It is odd why people get their feathers ruffled in these online forums. Whether someone praises someone's product or so called "bashes" someone's product... it won't damage or make someone fail.

Come on... get real...

Bottom line is... you build a great product... the better you are... the more people are going to bash...

Look at all the people who bash the big 5 now. No ones failed.

Chris has designed and built a great boat with great ideas. He has had some obstacles... And some critics and skeptics...

I think he thrives on that to build the best boat.

In my opinion.. assuming a flawless Epic... leaving out the esthetics... that all comes to personal opinion...

If you ride behind this boat... you will find the biggest nicest shaped wake anywhere... But everyone buys a boat for different reasons... but if you are buying purely for wake performance... oh yeah... and the nice sound you get from the stereo...

This is the perfect boat for building a huge wake.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-29-2006, 9:34 PM Reply   
Also... I haven't seen the pink boat lately. But it was rough from the start... This boat has travelled up and down the west coast for demo's. So by the time it made it back here... they put the pink wrap on it to advertise for the school and Epic. I saw it the day they had it done. On the water and from a distance... I think it looks cool. From up close, it looks "rough". I have defended the "rough" look.

There isn't a day that goes by where someone doesn't ask me... "Why do you like the Epic so much?" They base their opinions on what they have seen... none have ridden. Some don't like the blunt nose... yet they like the picklefork on the MC... go figure... to each their own...
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-29-2006, 9:36 PM Reply   
Go on to another post.
Old    radgalz_ride            08-30-2006, 1:48 AM Reply   
oh boys...thx for the lil msg in our email and for posting pics of our RADGALZ HOT PINK EPIC...!!That boat really stepped up the level of riding for our students and coaches over this summer. The larger wake pushed galz as young as 7 and as old as 52 with instruction from our very talented crew of female coaches to step up to it, and learn a new bag of stylish tricks!

In the last 10 weeks that boat pulled over 150 students from all over Canada and the rest of the world!! Of those most were very new to wake sports/wakeboats (as we aim to bring galz into wake sports and hope to help grow this side of the market) and at times the boat was not attended to or the rough water got the better of us and this is why its looking a lil rough around the edges..but common that boat look so freaking cool...and its every galz dream to have a PINK boat...just our wrap is for 'image' and apart of the DREAM for our school, and Epic supports this. It is true we did not have enough oil in the boat (which we found out when we had it serviced) our boat was driven by 10 insturctor and in and out of the marina all day and this was overlooked. Each of our staff will be more attentive to this in the future.

Our Epic Boat was the key component to the successful launch of our full summer and female focused Wake school this season. We had many rider come just to check out the Epic (both galz and guys) plus many media people, company reps, and Pro's come take a ride to check out what all the hype was, and we loved to show off what the Epic could do... make wake riding fun as hell, and make you step up!! Everyone was stoked on the shape of the wake (for both wakeboarding and so sick for surfing), the size and the power of this boat( especially needed for Okanagan Lake)... plus this boat looks Saweet...with the pink wrap or without... and of course we made most riders rock our customed designed water durable TUTU's so they look hot behind it too...!!

Check out our first full summer of wake school and classic coverage locally in Snap Magazine, nationally on Much Music's Razor TV (airing Sept 21 on 969) or on our website in two weeks.

Our summer was a HUGE success and the wake world is about to experience an influx of female rippers thanks to EPIC BOATS!!

here some pics of the galz...enjoi!
Old    radgalz_ride            08-30-2006, 2:33 AM Reply   
Old    radgalz_ride            08-30-2006, 2:38 AM Reply   
Old    radgalz_ride            08-30-2006, 2:40 AM Reply   
Old    radgalz_ride            08-30-2006, 3:08 AM Reply   
Old    radgalz_ride            08-30-2006, 3:16 AM Reply   
Old    radgalz_ride            08-30-2006, 3:21 AM Reply   
Old     (airrantz)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-30-2006, 10:15 AM Reply   
Kyle, you still haven't answered why you created a new account to make claims about the pink Epic, and ever so slightly bash both the boat and the Radgalz school. Are you upset that they got a hot pink Epic and you didn't? I used to appreciate your input on Epic boats and your enthusiasm for the sport on this message board, but it appears someone upset you at Epic and you're goal is to bash the company. My advice to you is to spend more time looking for your new boat and less time creating new accounts as fronts.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-30-2006, 12:30 PM Reply   
To clarify. I did not set up a new account. Those comments came from Jess who is at the house until the dorms are available. I wouldn't doubt that you will see him convince his Dad to buy him an Epic when it is available. He was one of the riders that came to ride when it was unveiled in Penticton last summer. He was a little disappoineted because he did not get to ride that day. Nor, to my knowledge has he ever ridden behind it.

Again, I don't know why people's comments get twisted into bashing.

As Radgalz says... most of the schools/clubs have so many coaches/drivers that somethimes things get overlooked.

I am on prop #3 this summer.

Just because damage happens to a boat does not constitute bashing another business.

I was the one who joked around with him when I told him not to get a camo wrap on a boat. It appears to be bad luck.

Both boats to my knowledge that had a vinyl wraps... had serious engine problems.

It really has nothing to do with the wrap.. it is just a coincidence.

I find this all entertaining too... could go down as the most popular thread.

Its great exposure for Epic... Controversy turns to success in the end!
Old     (ferrarispider95)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-30-2006, 12:43 PM Reply   
Kyle you got owned and called out, atleast fess up and try to save a shred of dignity instead of making up another excuse.

I find it quite humerous you go back and forth, taking jabs at Epic and then saying it is a great boat.

You have an agenda and I take away that you are mad because Epic won't allow you become a dealer and another wake school has been using a Epic demo all summer.

Also I would give a lot of respect to Sarah J (radgalz_ride) for posting and not even commenting on Kyles bashing, but just supporting her demo boat. I would love to be on the boat with all those girls, and by the way the boat is killer looking.
Old     (jiujitsuabs)      Join Date: Jul 2005       08-30-2006, 1:08 PM Reply   
Kyle you're only making it worse man! Man up!
Old    bocephus            08-30-2006, 1:09 PM Reply   
I'm just curious as to why everyone feels that they have to come out and protect Chris and Epic. It appears that Chris is more than capable of defending himself. I can't believe the amount of interest, enthusiasm, and brand loyalty that Epic has already benefited from. Why not just let the boat speak for itself? If it is good it will be around and sell like hotcakes, if it's garbage it will fail miserably.

(Message edited by bocephus on August 30, 2006)
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-30-2006, 1:36 PM Reply   
If you want to go back into history and see my previous posts on other threads... If I want to stir the pot... I will... I am not going to use another handle to take jabs or bash... or whatever you want to call it.

I like coming on these discussion boards to stir the pot. Nothing better than people getting their back up about something that is really unimportant.

Honestly, I really have nothing better to do.

I am a professional discussion board author. This is what I do for a living. It is a lot of fun.

This is one of my favourite threads... but my favourite one was the guy who had a brand new Supra and could not back his boat up so he drained his brake fluid out of his trailer to back it up... then he was concerned about the enging noise in his boat... so I told him to drain the oil... that may solve the problem.


This is a great thread which I will take credit for keeping alive...

To date there is only one true Owner of an Epic... and afterall... the thread title reads..

"EPIC Owners, some details please"
Old     (jiujitsuabs)      Join Date: Jul 2005       08-30-2006, 1:50 PM Reply   
Speachless!!! How do you respond to that? Kyle, you're making this thread a joke. Bocephus is right...If I was Chris I would be getting steamed at you right now.
Old     (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       08-30-2006, 2:00 PM Reply   
Bocephus, I don't know what pic you're talking about, but if you want the full back story and a real pic of the original "garage," check out this link from last year:
Old     (jiujitsuabs)      Join Date: Jul 2005       08-30-2006, 2:10 PM Reply   
What a dark twisted mess this has turned into. I have two wishes right now regarding Epic. I would like them to update their website, and as soon as I find a local dealer I would love to check out the boat in person so I can make a decision for myself.
Old     (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-30-2006, 4:37 PM Reply   
I too was impressed by Sarah's, MadGalz, response.

I'm curious if "Mike (smooth_worm)" is also posting from the same computer as Kyle? Smooth_worm posted some pics on the 24th of the first prototype boat, see above. It's suspicious that Kyle responded to Smooth_worm's post in less than 20 minutes. Smooth_worm is also from Penticton.
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-31-2006, 12:22 AM Reply   
Hmm, lots of fun stuff since I last checked in huh I guess I will address some of this stuff in order.

The composite technology we are using is certainly unique in many respects. And unfortunately I cant go into any more detail than that(mostly because of the car and military stuff we are into now). The KelSall and PolyWorx methods are very expensive and time consuming. We have cut the time to produce parts significantly and are able to produce these large parts in volume now. In the end we produce excellent parts with extremely low resin to fiber ratios which are much stronger and lighter than anything else currently used.

Our new website will come out in three steps. The first basic website will be out before Surf Expo on Sept 15. The we will work on the much more featured site for the next few months and have a more feature filled site sometime in November. Then we will start on the "extras" that will make the site a bit more enjoyable and interactive and get the new growing Epic Owners group involved. I know the current site sux and doesn't meet anyone's expectations. I put that site together(I used to program in college) while I was finishing up the original prototype. I didn't have a ton of time to devote to it in the beginning and as soon as the boat started proving itself to other riders I had to focus my energy on everything else that goes into making this great boat and building Epic into a real company. The site has been neglected and I know it all too well. I know a lot about web design and it pains me to not have the info I know people are searching out. I can't wait to have our new site up with new pics and vids and all the fixings. People call me daily and tell me how they are impressed by the boat on our site. If they are impressed with the old site I should get some amazing feedback once the new site is up :-)

RadGalz has been awesome to work with. Sarah did an awesome job promoting her camp and spreading the stoke for wake sports to many many girls from all over North America. She is super enthusiastic and loves the sport and sharing it with other girls. We did what we could to get her a boat that would meet all their needs but they ended up with a black pre-production boat that was a little rough on the edges to start. They were paying out the nose to rent boats for their efforts and they asked us for help and we gave them what we could. I think once they wrapped it the boat looked awesome. It may have looked better with a white hull but for what they had to work with I think it looked very cool. And it served its purpose as a tow boat for a whole season of training without incident. I guess the oil was overlooked and the engine started knocking but we will get it fixed and the boat will be back on the water sometime next week. We knew the boat would be abused but RadGalz did a great job spreading the love for the sport and our new boat. We couldn't have asked for more. RadGalz will have a boat next year(with a couple extra cans of oil) and I am sure they will have an even bigger and better season. Thanks for the pics Sarah, I especially like the pic with Steph Tor in the walk-thru :-)

And Bo says "Why not just let the boat speak for itself?". We fully expect that our 23v will do just that. I am stoked every time a new rider gets behind our boat and gives me their feedback. I wish everyone on the board could have a pull this weekend but we have to start somewhere. I have yet to start a post on WW about our new boat. I only respond to questions/concerns/comments/and feedback. I am happy to share my story and all I can about the 23v. I appreciate these forums and respect their goal to entertain and inform wake sports enthusiasts. I try to stay on topic but you can see this thread has taken many many turns now. I have said it many times now - I am just a guy who loves the sport and thought he could build something new and novel in this industry. I continue to appreciate all the support and feedback I have received. I guess people just stay tuned and see how the Epic story unfolds. If this thread is any indication it will be a movie worthy story, for sure...
Old    bcboatman            08-31-2006, 2:55 PM Reply   
Aww.. finally some sanity to this post.


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