I have toys

Not 870 pounds of blanks, but still fun.

Did you see "brand" on the right rear corner? "J" I'm disappointed it wasn't SD

Outline traced:

how much are you gettin blanks for jeff. i want to start shaping so i can put my own knowledge into my boards.

jeff you gonna make me one right?

Nice. I just got my fin boxes and fins yesterday. I'm going to start laminating tonight. I also found out that I have a patient who owns a foam factory. They do these precision foam trim products out of eps. I can give him an outline of what I want produced and he can make it. He has made skimboard blanks for a guy here locally for about ten years too. The only problem is that the blanks will be stringerless. Jeff how long are those blanks?

Hey Johnny, those are all PolyU blanks, I'm doing the same thing testing things out and I can prototype so much quicker with PolyU. I typically get my blanks from the folks at www.foamez.com They are great to work with and have tons of blanks in house. I paid...$70 each for those. The big thing for me is shipping, it's $120 to ship, and they can usually do 3-4 blanks for the same price.

Sean you goof. My final product is pretty "garage"'y. Typically once I get a shape that works I have it done professionally by someone like TWP - or this one will no doubt go through Jerry Price and Shred Stixx.

Matt, I'm looking forward to that final board. Can your patient do a block for me? I'm really interested in some .5 to 1.0 pound EPS with a hotwire cut rocker and I want both pieces. so that I can bag directly on to the off cut...it becomes a ready-built rocker table.

Matt, I'm sorry I blew off your question. Those blanks are 6'2". The way that I go about selecting the blank is to find a width that is suitable, that measurement eleminates a bunch of blanks and then the closest nose rocker to what I want. I hate to overshape PolyU, but trying to find blanks that are close to what I want is pretty tough after the shut down of Clark.

Hey Jeff, what boards do you guys have in stock right now? Like if I were to swing by tomorrow to pick one up...

Or are you a different Walker than http://www.thewalkerproject.com ? Now I'm confused.

Tim,
Jeff Walker is not The Walker Project. Mike Walker has made boards for Jeff and James.The boards Jeff makes are mainly R and D boards for himself. Though I do have a couple of Jeff Walker originals.I don't know if Mike Walker today has anything in stock. i do have a dealer in sacramento area that has a couple of boards at Mike's shop waiting to ship. One is a Composite X 4.5 the other is a 5.0. Let me know if that is what you are looking for. The rest of the line are custom built from 4' to 6' in length.

So, Jeff's not Mike's dad then?

I'll probably try to stop by the Walker Project Factory, since I live in the area. Thanks for the heads up on the connection... or lack there-of...

Hey Tim,

Common mistake...No relation between Mike and myself.

Preliminary shape. It's a squaretail with a HUGE single to double concave. I have also copied the nose from the Calibrated Telum which is also the same as 99% of all other skim style boards

James can throw shuv's but the nose on the original bullet would just sink when the board was revert, so...hopefully this nose will change that.

Also...we've made this board with a 3 stage rocker. Most of the skim boards are flat down the middle to the tail. The IS's are this way too. I wanted a little tail rocker for when James throws his airs, but the overall design, is to get more drive while still allowing the loose skaty feel that James likes.

I literally just finished laminating the bottom of mine tonight. That's a nice double barrel concave by the way. If you don't mind me asking, what are the dimensions (length X width (nose and tail) / thickness / and rocker). I can tell what your tail rocker is. Um alomst zero. My board is basically a popsicle. It's 5'2 by 18 1/2 by 2.5" with about 3 inches of nose rocker and little over 1 1/4 inch of tail rocker.

how thin are thoes boards jeff. they look to be under 2 inches ya?

Johnny you have a great eye. 1 7/8" BUT there is a huge concave...the last time I used the calipers they were at 1.25 except at the nose and extreme tail.

Matt, this prototype is 4'6" LOA, just a shade over 20" wide, as I described to Johnny...the height of the board is 1 7/8 but the actual thickness is around 1 1/4. The nose rocker is 3. I still have some work to do on it, but the tail rocker may come down a hiar from the current 3/8.

looking nice Jeff! I'm going to be shaping something similar -- the single to double, but perhaps just few inches longer and a hair or two wider...

All done. 9/13 to 9/22. Nine days from foam to ready for the water. I think that if I made a concerted effort, you could produce a board in a weekend.

Hey Jeff,
Nice job. No yellow tint. It will be interesting to see it ridden Sunday

The interesting part is the weight. 68.9 ounces with traction and fins. To give you a comparison, my 1" Walzer with fins and traction is 80 ounces and THAT is a light board. TWP Comp X 4.5 without traction or fins is 70 ounces.

Direct costs:

Blank $70
Glass 25
Fin Boxes 20
Polyester Resin/MEKP 15

Consumables:

Sandpaper and masking tape $4

The more expensive part is the tools, the Future's Fin jig, alone, I believe was almost $200

So what is that $134? (and $3,000 in labor hours! ) Even if it rides like junk, it's not a bad option, if you have the tools, or intend to invest in them for additional boards.

We'll have to see how it rides.

Dennis I found the yellow tint, I was SERIOUSLY tempted to use it, but...then it would be a mini-yellow!

Imagine what you could do with a heated shop this winter. I sent you e-mail

Let us know how it rides, and then make me one!!

I bet it will ride just fine. You beat me. I just finished laminating the top last night.

Well, it certainly had down-the-line speed. James at 18.1 mph. I think the board could ride faster, but the boat would start to plane and the wake would disappear! Just a reminder, this board is 4'6" long - about the same size as a 4skim, telum 53, Walzer Alpha, TWP Comp X 4.5.

wow Jeff! that is fast! nice work! -- i think you've already started on the potential next "East West Challenge" -- who can design the fastest free riding board.

I know, it was crazy fast. Fastest 4'6" long board I've ever ridden.

It looks like James is riding a wakeboard because of how far back he is from the boat. How far do you think he was from the boat? How did the board ride at 10-12 miles per hour?

I honestly don't know Roy...maybe 45 feet?

The purpose behind this board was two fold, increase drive and also allow it to be ridden revert, long enough to throw a shuv back out.

The design elements I included (comparasions are to the 4'5" Bullet) were a fuller nose, a square tail (to give a longer rail line and more drive from pumping), slightly modified fin placement and the single to double concave.

It developed incredible drive, but was overkill. Who rides at 18.1 mph?

The board was exceptionally responsive rail-to-rail...I'd have to say, too much so. The deep concave allowed the rails to sink very easily, so turns were abrupt and harsh...couple this with the square tail which also tends to deliver quick turns and the board felt "twitchy" is probably the best description.

Also, there is an effective nose rocker that comes in to play. Due to the concave in the nose, the effective nose rocker was only about 1.25 inches. In hard turns, the nose would bury...and ALL turns were hard

The board rode revert well, in fact you could gain speed while riding fins first. So the fuller nose and concave worked, but I'm not sure how it will work when I increase the nose rocker.

Changes in store - rounding the tail somewhat, increasing nose rocker, decreasing the concave depth, possibly eliminating the double concave at the back.

The board REALLY flowed water well. There was no water that plowed forward. I'm sure this was partly why the board had so much down-the-line speed.

However, it literally stuck to the wake. When James was attempting airs the board wouldn't follow him off the lip. It was funny to watch, he'd blast up to the top and he would continue, the board wouldn't.

I would say it was a super responsive, super fast board for someone that didn't want to try and get airs...not quite what I want to achieve...so back to the drawing board.

James could spin surface 3's and Dennis was able to free ride it, although that man can free ride just about anything. I don't think there are too many 4'6"'s that have a weight rating in the 250+ pound range.

More toys! It's like Christmas, only in foam.
I got my d-cell today. This Divinycell is the H-80 grade 5lb./cu.ft., 48" X 85.6" rigid PVC (Polyvinyl Chloride) structural foam.

I have plans to build a few boards with d-cell rails and 1, 1.5 and 2 pound density EPS cores. If I have any d-cell left over I want to attempt to 'bag a board, skim'ish style, with the d-cell as the core. This is the foam, but not the grade, that some of the skim style boards are made of.

Ed? I'll send you piece as a memento.

The concept is a board without a center stringer, however, with d-cell rails to compensate. A simple visual.

Are D cells kind of heavy?

...but full of energy! Cute pic, Ed.

The vacuum bagging supplies arrived today. Breather fabric, peel ply, bagging film and bag sealant tape.

A quick and simplified diagram of how the vacuum bagging will work:

The "layer" from the bottom up

Rocker Table
release film (not shown) and Bag sealant tape
Surfboard core
Wetted out fiberglass
Peel Ply
Breather Fabric
Bagging film

The Breather Fabric absorbs excess resin that is squeezed out of the laminate with the vacuum pressure

The peel ply has a coating of chemical that the epoxy doesn't stick to, plus holes that allow the excess resin to flow through.

The bag sealant tape is a putty that is pushed down on the table and the bagging film and this will seal the film so that a vacuum can be drawn.

The Vacuum system is here. The folks from Aerospace Composite Products treated me well, I ordered it yesterday (after fighting with another company) and it arrived today!

http://www.acp-composites.com/

This isn't a production system by any means, but for my limited purposes it will be more than adequate. I only intend to pull a vacuum of 8 inches of mercury and this will pull 20. It's comprised of an adjustible vacuum switch, vacuum gauge, large capacity reservoir, check valve, neoprene tubing and bag connectors. The vacuum switch allows the pump to cycle on and off. There are cheaper systems that are continuous run pumps, I liked this option better.

The reservoir will also act as a resin trap, although there is no way to clean it.

What the heck Jeff, I just returned from 2 week surf vacation at France (watching ASP Pro France action too) with 1 blank, and 3 set of fins with plugs for my 7' surf and some wakesurf projects and you alerady created new board, started another project gallore even with Vacuum, Johnny Stieg is asking for planer to start his own shaping.... WOW Im overwhelmed and pretty delayed ... and winter is near

But I was watching JCs Shaping 101 and now I know... something more

my 7' US blank and future fins


(Message edited by hawaj on September 30, 2007)

Nice blank Petr, what did that cost you in USD over there?

Thanx Jeff, its 7'3" A BLUE 1/4 Basswood Retro for 107,- USD, delivered by myself over 1300 miles

www.seabase.fr

Btw how many layers of glass you used? 4oz or 6oz?

(Message edited by hawaj on September 30, 2007)

Did you drive with that blank or did you load it on a train? That is funny.

On PolyU blanks that I want to keep I do a glass schedule of 1 bottom and 2 top all 6 oz. If I am doing a quick prototype or a contest board, I'll do 1 layer of 4 oz top and bottom. Sometimes with foot patches if I need additional strength.

Keep us posted on the shaping

No train (expensive), just driving Mazda mpv full of boards, friends and "few" french vine bottles

Hmm I am just surprised that 1 layer is inaf. How you glass EPS blank, same way or you add layers. I was thinking to add just thin Divinicell foam on top under feets and than use only one layer of glass.

First I will learn on couple EPS wakesurfs than I will touch this 7" beaty

I will share my progress here for sure.
I got couple construction and design ideas in mind and it grows.

You have to bring back French wines, everyone knows that! 1300 mile road trip in an MPV loaded with a blank and French wines. It sounds like a story that we'd see video on TV here in the US.

D-cell is pretty dense, 5+ pounds / cu ft. Typical spiderfoam - the PolyU in surfboards is 2.3 lb/cu ft. I don't think you'd need the d-cell skin until your core foam is less than 1 lb/cu ft. I know there is a thread by Bert Burger on swaylocks that shows him bagging 1/8 D-cell on .5 # eps cores. I think that you can glass normally on 1.5# EPS, but...it never hurts to go heavier. Also, D-cell is crazy expensive.

On eps, you can use the same glassing schedule, OR got a bit heavier on the fabric, due to the weight savings in the foam...and still wind up with a board that is the same weight as a PolyU board with less fabric.

The board in the pictures above, was glassed with a single layer of 4 oz top and bottom.

Story for TV? Nope just our regular trip to the nearest swell every year.

Maybe our friends can catch some attention - one destroyed nice silver BMW 5M and second created another hole in his a$$ with fin but now they are both safe.

It was just amazing trip, watching top 50 pros how they deal with huge beachbreak or Fanings evening session on our beach or met Kelly in tiny pub full of partying folks. Even my blank was slected by some pro shaper who stopped by just picking up some material at sharpers ware house - just genius loci.

Anyway thanks for helpful info Jeff

(Message edited by hawaj on October 02, 2007)

(Message edited by hawaj on October 02, 2007)

Jeff concerning your idea with D-cell rails I saw Taj in tv talking about Firewire board without stringer but with balsa rails - they just put the stringer on the rail fore more flex in turns. Its bagged EPS core.
Shaper even put some weight to the nose of board for better manoeuvrability check first board at this photo
http://img.timeinc.net/surf/content/images/06/cfin/boards900.jpg

(Message edited by hawaj on October 04, 2007)

Check out this Badboy! Someone needs to make some kind of scoop inbetween the floats and form a wave that way.

Also check this out, something different:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLC5q6fAiUw&mode=related&search=

Better version of Glacier Surfing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKRR9RMmcIQ

petr, check board shots at http://www.firewiresurfboards.com/visualize.php
mmm ... did you receive my pm?

Hey Petr,

That's where I stole the idea!!!! Way back in the early days, Bert Burger was shaping with d-cell rails, a .5# density EPS core and then the 1/8" H-60 d-cell skins.

I do believe that American Blanks sells a line of blanks with 1 pound EPS core and 3 pound EPS parabolic stringers.

http://www.segwaycomposites.com/ParabolicSystem.html

Mike at TWP owed me 2 boards, so I had him do a stringerless board, glassed light. Check this picture:

Two more pictures. These are of Dennis on the Single to Double we recently did in the garage. This board is a PolyU with a single layer of 4oz glass top and bottom, it is 4'6" long and Dennis is probably pushing 260+ pounds with PFD and wetsuit.

(note the stylish neck brace in the first picture )

I am really of the opinion that, for our purposes behind the boat, we are over-building these things. We were afraid to let Dennis ride this board last weekend, for fear of it snapping, but he rode it most of yesterday and ripped it up without anything more than the usual pressure dents.

Jeff, my boards are tanks compared to yours. My biggest riding buddy is 6'2 and about 235. I kept the boards thick mainly for him. I'm going to laminate number two tonight. I shaped it friday afternoon. I need to get one of showing the thickness of the tail. We copied a McCoy Nugget tail somewhat. Dimensions as of right now are 5'0 x 19 x 2 1/4. I assume the water where you're at is already cold by looking at the wetsuit. It's still around 82 degrees here in North Florida. By mid to late november we will be in fullsuits.

Hey Matt,

I think we are getting old and wimpy. James trunked it, but the rest of us old farts donned wetsuits. The water temp was in the high 60's and the air temp made the low 70's...eventually

I like that outline!

You'll have to tell me if you reach the same conclusion after a few miles on that stick. I don't think we need to build them this "durable".

woohoo shapers popin everywere

yep Jeff, but didnt you forget that balsa springer on top of a board? It works with rails somehow together
http://www.firewiresurfboards.com/tech2.php

I saw that "springer" in the details, but it's only in their Guns, not all of the FW's. I don't feel that much flex in these shorter boards.

matt, if you ever make it over to the tallahassee area p.m. and lets ride!!

Can you guess what this is?

dinner?

a new idea for the shaping contest

Hey Matt,
Jeff and I made the mistake in shaping boards for me that we needed thickness. The fact is that I ride a 5' Walker Composite X 1" thick. I weigh over 265. I don't think thickness is important except for strength to prevent breakage, and based on the board I rode yesterday that Jeff built, even light glassing is good enough.

Josh, too funny the "ugliest board shaping contest"

No, it's a contour mat. As we move over to vacuum bagging the very light EPS on the rocker table, the concave of the Bullet will just press out. So...enter the contour mat. It is a duplicate of the concave, only inverse. What we will do is lay this out on the rocker table and then rather than shape the contour into the EPS, we'll just press it in with the vaccuum.

I can see how a shop could make several contour mats and then use them rather than shaping them. The one interesting thing is that while this mat is somewhat stiff, it has some flexibility. In other words, unlike a mold, if we wanted to use this mat on a board with 1/2 less rocker, it would be easy. I wouldn't have to start all over.

Picture of the mat removed from the pattern (the board).

You mean it's not dinner

Dennis, you can call me late for dinner.

The mat still needs to be cleaned up, but the process is pretty straight forward. As with any tool or pattern, I laid up several layers of mold release wax. There are several brands available, it's a paste wax, rather than liquid. Rub it in, let it dry, break the surface and repeat. I believe I did 3 layers of wax. Typically Polyvinyl Alcohol (PVA) is misted over the wax. PVA is a parting film that helps prevent the tool and the laminate from sticking. I don't have the necessary spray equipment, so I used hair spray It's TRUE! It contains many of the same ingredients and is easy to mist from an aeresol can. I misted 3 layers of hair spray and then another heavier coat.

With the pattern ready I painted on two layers of white tolling gel coat...gel coat just like that used in the manufacture of your boat. I used a white Gel Coat because the board I was duplicated had a black bottom. I was able to see thin spots show through and covered those up with the second coat.

Next I mixed up some ployester and laid up a layer of vail. I used the light weight vail so that I could conform to all the curves of the concave.

After that was cured, I laid up two layers of chopped strand mat. After the whole thing cured, I popped it off the board. I'll clean up the edges and feather everthing so that the final board is smooth.

It seems to me that in a production environment, rather than depending upon a CNC machine that might be out of the reach of smaller manufacturers, this concept of contour mats and vacuum bagging can allow a shaper to replicate a design and also copy a hand shaped design EXACTLY.

Fun stuff.

Dennis if THAT was dinner, you could call me late for dinner also!

Hey Jeff, this morning the midwesterners were surfing. Air temp was mid 60s, water temp was 77. No wet suits in sight.

I had a great time Roy, Thanks for having me down!!

Roy, Saturday morning we woke up to an air temp of 42, Dennis who lives about 1,500 feet higher had frost, so their air temp was below 40. Later in the afternoon it broke 70. Air temps in the 50's are just COLD when the water temp is 60'ish!!!! Today, the current air temp is 50 with an expected high of 81! You folks must be living right to have such nice weather in October.

Jeff thanks for the compliment. I'm thinking this is going to be too thick. Especially the tail. How far up are you putting your side fins if you don't mind me asking. Also, how far off the nose are you towing them in?

Petr, I would never consider myself a shaper by any account other than the fact that I had two blanks lying around and some free time on my hands. But this whole process has inspired me to make a few longboards. These will be purely for me and my friends or whoever to ride.

As far as our weather goes, October to me is our best month. It was 72 this morning. Should get to 87 by mid-afternoon. Water is still warm. Late August is brutally hot down here. Temps in the mid 90's with 90% plus humidity. By late December our water should be in the mid to low 60's. January and February the water usually dips into the high 50's low 60's. March it starts warming up pretty fast.

Hey it's Monday. Gotta start work.

we are still in the 90's in florida. water temps about 80.

I am getting jealous.. i wish i some of yals shaping skillz and blanks to shape so i could join and represent the south east.

Dennis makes a good point, that is possibly hidden in here. If we think about a board as a composite structure (glass/foam/glass) there is an equation that is predictive of the strength of that structure. I don't claim to understand the formula, but "know" that it's the distance between the "skins" that has the greatest impact on strength. I can't remember where I located this blurb, and I can't copy the formula, but the text on sandwich construction reads:


The sandwich concept is based on two main ideas: increasing the stiffness in bending of a beam or panel and doing so without adding excessive weight. The general term for bending stiffness is flexural rigidity (D), which is the product of the material(s) elastic modulus, and the cross section moment of inertia (I). For a symmetric sandwich beam (both skins have the same thickness and material properties), the formula for flexural rigidity is:

With:
Ef = Elastic Modulus of the Facings (Skins)
Ec = Elastic Modulus of the Core
b = Width of the Beam
d = Distance Between Facing Centroids
t = Thickness of a Facing
c = Core Thickness

If the skins are relatively thin compared to the core (d/t > 6) and the core material is considerably weaker than the skins (Ef/Ec . td2/c3 > 17), the equation can be reduced to:

From this equation, it is apparent that the core material does not directly contribute to the stiffness of the panel or beam, (at least in lower density cores) but it's the distance between the skins that is the overwhelming factor. Increasing the "d" variable will have a much greater effect on the flexural rigidity than any other component in the equation, since every other variable has a linear contribution.


Yeah, everybody knows that! I have to tell you I absolute HATE IT when the Distance Between my Facing Centroids gets too big. Anyway...a board that is 4 inches thick, will be stronger than a board that is 1/2 inch thick, all other variables being the same. As Dennis was pointing out, the 1" thick board is suitable for his riding style and weight. A 2" thick board is, possibly, over built. Conversely, using the same materials, a board can be made stronger by increasing the distance between the skins (eg thicker core), rather than adding additional layers of glass.

The strongest structure per unit weight will be a sphere. Increasing the thinness is s step toward the shape of a sphere. I doubt a sphere would be a practical surf board.

Next year's challenge. Board cloest to a perfect sphere - 2' loa, 2' width, 2' thick...I think I have the foam for that, somewhere, round the edges just a bit.

Two years ago I shaped a board for Dennis that was - shoot 3" thick? It was crazy thick, and very short...about 5' long. Dennis said it was corky, but it's very strong. The last board that I have shaped and Dennis rode was about 1.25" thick, only 1 layer of 4oz glass and it held up for him.

There is a magic number in there that I want to say is around 1" thick with 4oz e-glass and a 250 pound person and 2 pound density foam.