Question for the audiophiles

Hoping Mike and/or Grant are watching.

My current system (modest)

Clarion XMD3
PPI DCX1000.4
Ft channels to Fusion T3 tower combo (2ohm)
Rr channels bridged to PPI PCX 1202 (2ohm VCs in series)

Troy has almost completely convinced me to get a preamp (Audio Control 3.1). I can probably pick it and the RCAs up for $300-$350.

My question is what will this do for the system, and will it be worth the $s?

I'm hoping that it will improve the line signal, and the clarity at higher volumes. Right now, my system probably needs to be tuned a little better, but at around 17 on the deck, the tower speakers start to pop. If I install the preamp, and make no adjustments to the existing components (as a referrence) what changes improvements should I expect to see?

Thanks - Jeff

I have a 3.1 for sale if you are interesed.

Later

Jeff,

that is a loaded question- there are a couple different ways to go......alot will depend on what you are looking for...

your system sounds pretty good, here are some suggestions depending how far you want to take it

btw, you have a really nice 210..thanks for the elsinore session - really appreciate it and really learned alot !!!

Option 1

add a audiocontrol "overdrive" (goes for $125 new or $60-$75 on ebay) and that would increase the preamp signal and really clean up the sound

increases the preamp voltage to 9.5v...

option 2.

add a audiocontrol 24xs or 3xs. these are crossovers that will accomplish a lot. you can run the amp in 4 channel mode /4 ohm( 2 channels going to the towers and the other 2 channels going to each voice coil of the sub

1. the 24xs and 3xs have a subsonic filter- this is mandatory with subs..this will limit frequencys below 33 hz from your sub. by limiting frequencys below 33hz, your amp will have more power to run the rest of the system.this does a lot-it will free up more power from you amp from producing low freqencies and clean up the subs sound.

2. 24 db crossover...preference here... i like 24 db slope- the sub hits harder and the mid/highs intergrates better than 18 db or 12db slope

3. 9.5v preamp out- this will make a hugh difference. your amp will not have to work as hard.

4. the 24xs has the ability to adjust the phase(timing) between the mid/highs and the subs. (much like when you heard my car system)

the 3xs is front rear fader.

imo, i dont think you need the 3.1, it is a nice unit but you dont need the eq...i dont suggest a eq...and if you do( ie last resort) then a parametric eq( my opinion) btw, when you heard my car system- that was with tone controls set flat and out of the circut - i am believer in maintaining the fidelity of the source unit without coloring the music in anyway.

the 3xs or 24xs goes for a average of $65-85 on ebay and $175 new....

OPTION 3
if you want to take it a "step further"- pick up a dedicated class D amp amp for the sub and use the ppi for the towers. the only reason i say this- most subs require dedicated class d amps of 500 watts or so...would suggest a jl 500/1 they can be picked up used for $275-$300 on ebay from a reliable seller or $550 new. the jl has subsonic filter and fully adjustable crossover.

add a audiocontrol "matrix" line driver (6 channels of high output) about $150 new or $75-$85 used on ebay...

this would give your system a boost all the way around on all levels(preamp, crossover, sub, tower)

also for the time, would suggest would suggest running tone controls flat as not to overdrive the speakers. you might want to crossover your tower speakers at 125 hz - 180hz ( this is might be causing the popping- the towers are trying to produce too low of frequency)

if you like i can come by on the weekend and take a lisen and dial in the system if you like.

mike


(Message edited by clubmyke on January 08, 2005)

Dammm

lets ask audiopimp....

Sorry to hijak your thread "Fruitcake" (I just feel funny typing that), but I wanted to ask a question about the line drivers as well. A buddy of mine got one and the sq and overall volume gains were pretty damn impressive

Mike or Grant or anyone else who may know about these more than I do.

I am looking to add an audio control line driver as well and I was just wondering what model to get. Quick system rundown:
PCX 4125 running 6 coaxials throughout the boat
PCX 4125 running 4 midrange drivers on the tower
PCX 1250 running 1 12 inch sub
PCX 250 running 2 compression driven horns
If not familiar with PPI there are all able to daisy chain

I've talked with the guys at Image dynamics and Eric told me that my amps should do all the equalization on thier own since each amp is dedicated to a specific set of speakers and frequency. I am just wondering what model to get just to boot the voltage? I really don't think I need or want one with any sort of EQ in it, but I am open to any suggestions. Thanks for the input ahead of time.

Chad

chad...very, very nice system.... here are a couple of questions...

1. what head unit are you using ?
2. since all the amps you have built in crossovers (12 db slopes), where are they crossed over at and does the PCX 1250 have a subsonic filter ?
3. what drivers, crossovers, slopes are the horns ?

btw, what is the status with 80feetout.com ?

mike

(Message edited by clubmyke on January 09, 2005)

mike

1.That's in debate, right now I have the stock JBL (M-22 I think it is) on my 03 VLX. The deck sucks and I know this, one of my biggest pet peeves of my boat, but I also don't want to loose my remotes (transom and dash). I have thought about switching it though. It does have 3 preamp outs though.

2.crossover points will be worked on. I am in the process of switching towers and when I get the new one up the new speakers go on. (I am switching from 6 6.5's coaxial to the compression horn system) Eric at Image Dynamics told me to call him back and we would work on that but I do remember him saying that the horns will probably be set at 1200-1400Hz. And yes the pcx 1250 has a subsonic filter 5-80Hz.

3. The horns are the CD1Pro's of Image Dynamics recommended at 800Hz-2000Hz 12dB-24dB Power: 60 watts; sensitivity 106dB; imp 8 OHMS;


4. 80feetout is no longer "in business," However, Paul (awake4air on here) still has the molds and will make boxes for people, just not on the scale he was doing it before. It was just taking too much of his time and he wasn't prepared to quit his day job. If you or someone you know is interested let me know and I can hook you up.


I hope I gave all the right info. I know a little bit about audio, but am no genius hence I am asking for your support on the line driver. I find the more I get into this system, the more I figure out that I need. It is a never ending money/marriage stress trap. When my wife read your responce she told me, "That's when you know you've gone too far, when audiophiles are telling you, you have a nice system." It's all in good fun though.

Chad

chad,

i hear the from my wife -" when are you going to stop ? ... you havent gone to far (unless you have a car system, 2 channel home system, house system, and home theatre system and are ALWAYS upgrading great gear- that is sign of going too far..btw, i only have a 2 channel home, car, and in process of the boat)

you are enjoying a clean hobby and
it takes alot to have decent sound on a boat...a boat is a bit more challenging than a car and your system is very well rounded with great gear.

Couple more questions.. how many mid/high channels (total) are you running (looks like 8) and can i assume 2 for the sub channels ?

PCX 4125 running 6 coaxials throughout the boat (4 channels or 2 channels ?????)
PCX 4125 running 4 midrange drivers on the tower (assume 2 channels)
PCX 1250 running 1 12 inch sub (2 channel mono)
PCX 250 running 2 compression driven horns (2 channel)

thanks,

mike

Mike

PCX 4125; bridged to 2 channels running 3 coaxials in series on each channel. (I found out it is a pain to try to wire 6 speakers and to get them to all play equal sound, or drop the ohm load too low on the amp, when running the six coaxials that I now have on my tower. This is what I found to work the best though, so I will now run that to the six boat speakers. (I am adding two in the bow to the stock four once I put the new system in)

PCX 4125; again, bridged to 2 channels running 2 midrange drivers in parrallel on each channel

PCX 1250; mono 1 channel amp running down to 2 ohms at 500 watts to 12 inch sub

PCX 250; 2 channels at 50 watt's 4 ohms, running straight to horns. (Not sure if I am going to run this down to 2 ohms at 100 watt's a channel) I'll discuss that with Eric again when the new tower get's here. He said that these need to run on very little power compared to everthing else as they will overpower everything so I am going to assume just running them straight at the 50 watt's with the crossover setting I mentioned before.

Mike

Also, I saw in the "what kind of reciever thread" that you are running close to the same set up as me on the tower. Can I ask why you are not going with Image dynamics horns? and I too am going to run all image dynamics speakers including the woofer, midrange drivers and the coaxials throughout the boat.

My second question would be what woofer to get... I am afraid that the PCX 1250 will not be enough to power an IDMAX 12 and I will do more harm than good, if not that I am going to go with the IDQ 12 obviously which I think is a better match up. What are your thoughts on this, should I just stick with the IDQ12? I don't need the most bommin system out there, just looking for real good quality full sound. I just don't want to feel like something is missing.

Third and last question, I see you dropped an eclipse head unit in yours. I have a 5442 eclipse HU with the 5 volt preout, aux inputs, yadda, yadda, and I have always thought about swapping the two, but always come back to loosing my remotes. What is an ir repeater and can I get this deck to operate the remotes? If so then that is a done deal, as I love my Eclipse deck and it does all that I need and more and I am not too concerned with the marine issue as the deck on a VLX is pretty damn protected.

Again thanks for all your help. If your ever up here in central/northern cali just look me up and you'll alway have a pull waiting. Nice boat btw.

Chad

chad,

will answer a couple of questions before i go to work....(have lots of questions going on)

i like image dynamics alot ( running them in car and boat- they replaced the dynaudio in my car) and the id horns are great...but they are designed for car(up close) and not 80 ft out....will they work..yes..but they are $$$$ and i think one can do just as well for less money.

look at the new defcon reference(awesome design and clamp system)..Image d. came up with a different lense and redesigned driver... with that being said...i would consider celestion or eminece horns- they cost less (200 with lenses) and probley will just as well- however they might need a little bit of tweeking to get to sound their best(dont know for sure, alot has to do with the lense- this is a really overlooked area)... the id horns are really designed for their lenses and are difficult to change( quoting eric from id here) also what eric @ id said is true... you only need 10-20 watts to power them, they are ultra efficent.

the idmax is a great sub and will work freeair(unique application, sealed, or ported but you will need at least 1 jl/500 for a single idmax 12 or jl 1000/1 for 2 and some BIG enclosures.

you wont missout on alot with running a idq12 in a ported box that is properly built and crossovered correctly ( would suggest 80 hz-90hz with 24 db slope). the idq are a "proven:" design.... sure there are newer designs but they need more power and bigger boxes(.85 sealed or 1.25 for a ported 12" is frigging amazing- with most boats one is really limited on box size).. the sound quality, impact, and slam from a idq sub is amazing..to do better you have to spend ALOT more, have ALOT more power, and a bigger box.not to mention the one piece surround wont wear out- a audio buddy has his 12" svc for 5 years now..

the big thing with boat subs is the cone area has to firing "into the listening area" and not the storage area where A LOT OF the sound is lost...you will feel some of it near the storage area but you wont hear it ( okay if you run 1500 watt amp and a couple jlw7's or a couple idmax 12's - then you will hear and feel some of it.

will come back to the other questions tonite if that is okay (work is calling)...and thanks for the compliment- you have a great ride with a nice system... will take you up on your offer when i am in the area and would like to extend the same when you in so cal.

mike



(Message edited by clubmyke on January 10, 2005)

chad,

was thinking about your system and would suggest going with the audiocontrol 24xs and the 3xs. the jvc is probley at .5 volts preamp output( that is a guess, i am going off memory with older jvc decks- they had very low preamp output...)

here are some suggestions- there are a lot of different ways you can configure your system.

the eclipse is a great sounding deck and it puts out 5 volts but the JVC wired remote is greatly desired. the 9v from the 24xs /3xs is a hugh "right now" solution(though the eclipse will have better sound quality.. would suggest adding it on later and rewiring the system with audio control universal marine remote combo ( here is the link-http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/205225.html?1105285870

something like this a MAJOR project- the upside is once installed it will pretty much work with all any deck you want.

or you can add a ir repeater and use the eclipse remote ( that is what i am doing)

system comfiguration with the audiocontrol 24xs/3xs crossovers ( this will give you five sets of 9 volt outputs)

would suggest the 24 xs for the tower horns and mids. it has 9 volts out...most important, it has a phase control(the only model that does this) which would allow you to "slow down" the horns.. this will allow for a better intergration of the drivers.
the 24xs will also crossover between the mids and horns at 24 db crossover slope and can be used to cut off the bottom and top of the mids ( hence all electronic crossovers on the towers- very efficent.. use the subsonic filter to crossover the bottom of the mods or use the one on your amp. it has resistors to adjust the top of the mids and the bottom of the horns)

the 3xs can be used as a line driver and crossover (and 24 db slope is you wish for the bottom of the mids and subs and have 9 volts) the outputs can head out to the interior coaxial amp and the sub amp..

something to consider is the pac lc-1 on the PCX 4125 that runs the interior coaxial system (mounted close to the driver). this will allow you to turn down the interior speakers while the towers are really going unless you run the whole system really loud..kinda cool- it will give you the option for 2 volome controls- you can run the system at the same volume or turn down the interior speakers if you want..btw, this will not efect the level of the sub...

(here is the link) http://www.pac-audio.com/products/lc.htm

hope this helps.....

btw, what are plans for your tower ? i am in the process of putting one together and looking for enclosure ideas...}

(Message edited by clubmyke on January 11, 2005)

typo..

would suggest the 24 xs for the tower horns and mids. it has 9 volts out...most important, it has a phase control(the only model that does this) which would allow you to "slow down" the horns.. this will allow for a better intergration of the drivers.
the 24xs will also crossover for the mids and horns (24 db crossover slope) and can be used to crossover off the bottom and top of the mids ( hence all electronic crossovers on the towers- very efficent..) or you can use the subsonic filter to crossover the bottom of the mids on the one on the amp. the 24 xs has resistors to adjust the crossover top of the mids and the bottom of the horns)

Thanks for all your help mike. I've seen the two models you mentioned on ebay for around 20-40 bucks. I'll probably just pick them up. By "slowing down" I assume you mean that the horns are so peircing you need to time them a little down so the mids get thier at the same time. One last question about them though, if 24xs/3xs are doing all of the "crossing over and equilization" what are the amps going to be doing/will I just have the setting at what Eric has recommended? It sounds redundant to me.

As for the tower enclosure I am going to do one of two things.

First see if I can make my existing box work, as it is one of only 3 out there thanks to Paul and Squid at 80feetout.

I am fortunate enough to have 80feetout as my crew so they are of great assistance in this department. Basically if I think something up they will accomodate along with my help and funds.

If the first idea doesn't work or we feel like spending the enormous time and effort I might have them build another custom box. I already have an idea in mind what to do with the titan III when it gets here if we choose that rout, I'll just have to wait and see. I was going to kinda form fit it to the tower this time, make it look like it was for my tower and none other. It's hard to explain, but think of the new blade tower by malibu, just not as integrated and it somewhere along the lines of what I am thinking. Either way I am going with the all fiberglass box.

What have been your ideas so far?

(Message edited by forwaken on January 11, 2005)

(Message edited by forwaken on January 11, 2005)

not that the horns are piercing( they may not be)...it is they are much, much "faster" and are generally crossed over lower than a typical tweeter (this is the problem area in in the frequency range with horns) and will more than likey reach the listener sooner than the mids...

by adjusting the "phase"(i would start 135 degrees and play around +/- 25 degrees you allow for much better driver intergration right around the crossover slopes of the drivers ( you can actually introduce cancelation of some of the highs or mids if you wish...this is some of the image dynamic crossover tweeking you see in the upper end models that dont require equalization...

the 24xs and the 3xs are just crossovers- they are not equalizers..the big difference is slopes. slope is the "steepness"( think of it like a hill, the larger the number the steeper the hill) that the frequecy is going to crossovered......12 db slope is kinda slow(6 db is even slower)....24 db is a much steeper slope and will allow for better driver intergration (i actually prefer 6 or 18 db for highs(odd number) and 24/48 db for mids/subs (even number - very steep..again my prefence). the 3xs and the 24 xs will allow for that and the 24 xs will allow for the phase adjustment (0-180 degreess and also increasing the preamp voltage..also it is a little better to do the "majority" adjustents outside of the amp (the digital domain is best...again my preference...the reason why- amps is going through HUGH voltage swings and even on the high end stuff the internal crossover are okay parts quality compared to the rest of the amp ( okay i am being nit picky- but listen to the signal is crossed over in the amp vs a deck or external crossover... the deck or external sounds better)

hope this helped...the slope and phasing stuff is a lot of techical goobly gook... but once you hear a system that has phase adjustment in it withthe slopes dialed in...it is very obvious = the sound is very cohesive and coherent...

could i bother you for some pics of your tower ???? i am going between a glass enclosure or a tube/polished ( like the skylon defcon reference)

i will more than likely running 4-idq 6.5's and 2 emience horns with a different spin on the lenses (lenses make a BIG differnce on how drivers sounds)

regards,

mike

2 crossfire horns / 2 6.5 drivers

Hey Adam, how did that setup sound on your tower (at rest and at 70 feet)? How does it compare to the Electrovoice Evids you had up at one point? Didn't you recently buy a NVS Entity for your tower?

Mike

sorry I took so long, I had to get the pics from Paul. Here is my existing box now with the 6.5's. I want to go to the lense that you see in the new skylons but will see.

Chad

Mike,

At 70 feet, the EVID's sound ok, you get alot of the "highs" and very little mid-bass. For what you pay they are better than a four 6.5 setup by far. I've never heard a 6 6.5 set-up. The horn set-up w/ the 6.5 mid-bass drivers was simialr to the EVID's but much louder, and you could hear even less of the mid's at 70 feet than the EVID's. IT was almost piercing in some spots. If you put another pair of drivers in there or tuned the horns properly, I'm convinced you could get alto better sound. The NVS is like everyone says, its the loudest clearest thing I've heard to date. The sound is alot "fuller" back at 70 feet. By far the best. I had a guy riding out on the river where I'm at that has 4 -6x9's on his tower, as we drove past each other everyone in his boat turned there head as I passed. Talked to him, and the rider 20 min later. He said he could here my music loud and clear over his 6x9's , the rider behind his boat said the same thing. I've been nothing but very impressed w/ the NVS, don't regret at all paying close to 1500 for them.

Mike,

Before I hi-jack this thread. The HLCD setup in the pic is not tuned properly and does sound harsh, especially at rest. I was throwing a life jacket over the horns to try and drown them out (helped a little) . It still amazes me how loud those horns are. There is no typ of attentuation circuit on it. If anyone is interested in buying it and tickering with it I'll sell it for $550 plus shipping. Its brand new. I can pm all the equipment inside.

Adam,
you stated you paid 1500. Did you get the second NVS unit? I know you started with just one. Can you elaborate on 1 vs 2 units?

I had to buy the pair to get the price. I had just one on my tower , but decided to add the second last week. One is more than enough, but I can tell a difference between one and two in the boat. I haven't tried shutting dwon one while I'm riding. I'm running one amp to each module and have one wired so one of the accessory controls the remote turn on, so I can shut down the amp if I have to. (For sound and power draw reasons) I have the RCA's run so that I still have a stereo effect while running the amps in mono. I'll be out again this weekend and will run some "tests" on how 1 vs 2 sound while riding. With the way evrything is setup I will be able to compare the difference between 1 vs 2 w/ the flip of a switch.

WOW, Chad that has no bugs on it. That must of been its first day out.

Chad hows it going? And I am with your wife on this one....haha I thought you system sounded great before...

chad & adam,

thanks for the pics... sweet setup !!!

mind if i ask some questions about the enclosures ???

1. how much do they weigh ?
2. any rattle ?
3. can they be heard 70'-80' out to the point where it is enjoyable for the rider ?

thanks,

mike

mike,

sorry for the long reply, I had a long weekend in San Francisco.

1.) I think my box weighs 17 pounds. The glass was put on a little heavier on mine though with a chopper gun.

2.) No rattles at all. The box, along with "Raul's clamps" are rock solid.

3.)I ride at 75' and the "sound" can be heard clearly where I am at. We often find people not realizing that they are singing along with the music while they are riding. The sounds does lack completness (meaning I'd like to hear the music other that the words a little more clearly) hence I am switching to the horn setup. The dispersion (if that is the right word) is a little off as well. Meaning it is louder in some spots than others. All in all though it is most likely enough with just the coaxials, but like I said before, the deeper i get into this stuff, the more I find that I can do. I am hoping this horn set up will be my final resting place when it comes to the stereo. That is why I am trying to be as thourough as I can be on this install.

Chad,

Thanks for the comeback...

Another question about the box (sorry)..is inside of the box seperated ?( are all the drivers sharing the same air space ?

thanks,

mike

Mike

No, it is all one airspace for this one. But I was going to talk to eric and see what will work best with the horn setup. Seperating each component won't really be too much work on this box. And if I build a new one,(which is what I really want to do, I just don't want to spend the time) it will be to ID's specs for the drivers/speakers.

Chad

Mike, I don't knwo the exact weight of the box my guess is aroudn 25lbs. the HLCD's weigh about 6-7lbs a piece. the actual enclosure is very light. and no, the encolsure is not sectioned off , its all open. Like chad, my box to is solid , no rattling what so ever. I think chad's description oif his sound (6 6.5's ) is simialr to what I experienced w/ that horn setup. I had no attentuation circuit on the horn and it screamed. you could hear the words very clearly but you lost alot of the "music" . Chad's "dispersion" was similar o what I experienced. I'll try and get some pics of what my box looks like on the inside.

"The sounds does lack completness (meaning I'd like to hear the music other that the words a little more clearly) hence I am switching to the horn setup."

Chad, the HLCD will not add any completness. The "completeness" I'm sure your refferring too is all in the mid-bass driver. If it sould be done I'd throw a couple of 15's up on my tower I now the 6.5 inch drivers don't cut it, I thin a minimum of 8, 10 is good (NVS) obviously 12 or 15 would be ideal, but not practical......yet

chad,

yea... seperating the left channel airspace from the right channel airspace is very, very critical ( and the further they are physically apart the better..)

i think this might be the loss of sound definition..

25lbs is pretty good for a enclosure that size..

Chad if you do this I am running for the hills. Its all in pauls hands till the paint time comes

Squid,

Hahahahaha. Let's get elaborate on this one. No building a mold this time. Just a one off so it won't take so damn long.

Adam or Chad, do you think by adding 2 more 6.5" midbass's (4 mids and 2 horns) it would have helped the "completeness" of the system? I know the ideal are 8's or 10's to hang with the horns but I was thinking of trying 2 horns with 4 6.5" mids. Any thoughts?

tmorefi,

I tried adding another set of 6.5 fosgate separates in cans. I just disconnect the tweeter. It helped, but was not enough. 4 6.5's with one horn would probably sound better. I'm pretty sure that ID recommends 4 8's @ a min. But remeber my horns had no attenuation circuit on them. With either that or a separate amp pushing the horns, would/could make a huge difference. The 6.5's just don't carry far enough.

(Message edited by acurtis_ttu on January 24, 2005)