Diesel wakeboard Boat

I heard a rumor that someone was going to have a diesel wakeboard boat on the market next year... has anyone else heard anything about this?

Is this a good idea, could it work as well as a regular petro engine. Sure would cut back on fuel consumption, and the engine would probably last for ever.

i'd like to see a duramax w/ a banks big hoss package.

in all seriousness, i'd like to see a duramax or something available in the boats.

Lewis Ski Boats in Sydney Aus had a boat at the boat show fitted with a Steyr diesel, think they were trying to pitch it toward commercial operators though

madchild, a boat with a duramx and a banks package would take a crap and throw a rod thru the block in no time, let alone cost an arm and a leg for the overrated Banks product

you're just bashing it because it's not a cummins.

I don't think you'd see duramax/powerstroke/or cummings-dodge type diesel (probably a diffrent type of cummings). More likely see an exsisting style marine diesel - Yanmar, Volvo Penta, Caterpillar, Detroit, Hino, Etc.

It'd probably be cheaper to adapt one of these to our needs, rather than marinize a diesel 3/4-1 ton truck engine.

Had heard rumor Malibu had 5 year deal with idmar with duramax to do diesel in boat. Haven't seen it yet, just a rumor until it's seen I guess. Really have no merit on rumor just conversation with dealer months ago... Wait and see!

actually it is a great idea -- and i'm sure it has been thought about and considered... the only reason i can see why is hasn't already made the wakes is due to the initial cost... an extra 5-8k$$$ is a lot of money.. even in these 50K and up boats...

I believe Session has something in works also, but like the Malibu, it's just a rumor. If it's true, I don't think we're to far from a 100K wakeboard boat. XStar with a duramax, or other diesel would be close to it.

I don't think we're to far from a 100K wakeboard boat.

mc already makes them. i saw an x-star at the la la land boat show last jan and it sold for 98k less tax and license. the x-45 with all the trimmings is damn close to a c-note and the x-80 in stripped form is over 90, and over 105k for the sts.

malibu is getting up there too, the new 247lsv although a beaut, is DAMNED expensive.

I don't think it would take much to marinize a diesel since it is already completely inclosed!

i also heard that malibu was making one a while back, but i dont know what happened?

No one is making a DIESEL Boat... I did not know Malibu made motors. Possibly the engine supplier is.

No one is making a DIESEL Boat... I did not know Malibu made motors. Possibly the engine supplier is.

no $#!+ sherlock.

http://www.marinedieselusa.com/marine-engine-company.html

Order a boat without a motor and then drop one in.

Order a boat without a motor and then drop one in.

think they'd let you do that? if so, i'd like to see this in a boat

http://80.69.70.123/products/pdf/LYA_CX/6LY2A_TechData.pdf

440hp with 825lb/ft tq!!! at 1180lbs, there is no need for ballast in the back.

Do you think it is still worth it? With diesel fuel near $.50 over premium per gallon these days, that's an extra $20-$35 at the pump. Sure it consumes less gas, but how long would it take before you started seeing the benefit on a $6K upgrade?

Why would you want a diesel wakeboard boat?

Why would you want a diesel wakeboard boat?


did you not see the 440hp and 825 lbs of torque?!?!?!?!

Diesels rule.

My friend has a Duramax that produces 600 HP and 1100 pounds of torque. He smokes 40 inch dually tires.

Yeah, breathing diesel exhaust while wakesurfing would be the best.

With the kinda torque a diesel pulls, you'd diffently save big money on gas with they way everyone is weighting their boats. The diesels would work alot less then the gas engines to move the bigger weight

look at thiss site. it's in the netherland's but who care's. http://www.midlandwatersports.nl/ and then at diesel engine's

Check out Volvo's IPS Drive. That's where its at. I've been designing a boat for school this semester, and am building it around the drive. http://www.volvo.com/volvopenta/na/en-us/# -- click on "interactive overview" on the left. The motor coupled with the Drive is Volvo's state-of-the-art diesel, and the whole system is tied together with a solid central computer and drive-by-wire systems. Check out boat shows this year- you should see it on the bigger boats (30-50 foot) I think wakeboats will be using it in the near future.

I've installed 3 diesel engines in Mastercraft Sportstars. Oldest one has 9,900 hours on the clock and still kicking. Runs all day on a full tank.


(Message edited by wakemeister on November 29, 2005)

almost 10,000 hours....HOLY COW!!!

there is a pic of a MC X45 with a diesel motor or the X80 cant remeber where i saw it at.

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/253003.html It won't be long until we start seeing a few here or there. Expensive, but the benefits are there.

Yea,
I heard Session will make it an option on the 22si and 22xi this year, maybe this will break them out of the hole and get people to start buying session boats.

I stand corrected. Diesel was only $.10 more a gallon than premium when I stopped today...

plus, you can always make your own. www.biodiesel.org

I sat next to a Cat rep on a flight last night. Cat makes a C-7 that sounds like our ticket. I think the biggest problem will be a 2-speed tranny so we still have some low speed manuvering - otherwise it may clutch in at 10 knots like some of the USCG and Navy diesel small boats. I think the 2-speed MB tranny would not handle the diesel torque. Maybe a variable vane torque converter since we have an endless supply of cooling water...

Biggest obstacle is the price - probably adding $15k to the boat price.

Penninsula diesel in MI marinizes the old GM 7.5 and has a wiring harness compatable with Indmar/PCM/Merc for a drop in replacement.

I figure in 10 years when my engine takes a crap or time for a replacement......I'm looking into a diesel upgrade.By that time they will hopefully get some routin going.

i think i diesel would be awesome... the only downfall i can think is that it would be kinda loud

its official... Session will have a yanmar 315 hp engine option on its 22 foot boats. It'll cost a little extra, but last for ever.

Cody, where did you see that?

I went out on a 30 something ft. Blackfin off shore fishing boat down in Baja that had twin Diesel's that were super charged + intercooled Turbo's and that boat flat out hauled ass !

No doubt in my mind that a diesel would work well in a wakeboard boat but the exhaust fumes would be unpleasant.

When I was in Europe for a month last August,everybody has a diesel engines in their cars and I'll tell you something......either those were not regulated or diesels just pure stink.The whole town was poluted.

I think that they add achemical to the exhaust to help it not smell BICBW.

trurt about diesel pollution:

http://www.stealthtdi.com/Emissions.html

jeff,

I'm in orlando right now meeting with the session guys. They showed me the boat and I got to ride behind it today. Hopefully I'll post some pictures on monday when I get home.

I think everyone is missing a key point here... how many marinas that are on inland lakes carry diesel? If your not on the coast or a major river with transport boats/ships its gonna be real hard to find fuel on the water. Love the idea just see a few problems.

diesel will come available after a while, just bring gas cans.

I try to never fill up at the marina pump since it is usually a 100% mark up.

Kevin,you won't really need them since your not gonna be burning 50 gallons a day!Just fill her up at the gas station and then put it in the water!

Every newer boat is and is gonna be equiped with 30+ gallons tank.

I think a diesel powered wakeboarding boat is retarded for the following reasons...

1) Diesel exhaust stinks... unless you like a good migrain headache... I'm gettin one just thinking about it
2) Diesels are loud
3) Diesels cost a butt load of cash when they decide to give you trouble (turbo, injectors, injector pump, transmission). This can happen at any time... 1 hour to 10,000 hours.
4) Diesel fuel costs about $0.20/L more than gas right now
5) The diesel option would add about $7500-$10,000 to the cost of a boat.
6) Diesel fuel would be next to impossible to find.
7) If the diesel boat concept doesn't take off... good luck selling it or trading it in.
8) Service costs are going to go up

Simply stated... Diesel = more $$$ not less $$$

Kevin,
I think you have a good point on some of those reasons but some are not supported very well. After riding behind the Session Diesel this weekend here is what I think.

1)I think diesel smells good, but you couldn't smell any exhaust behind this boat... it was very clean, no big puffs of black smoke or anything. It was actually cleaner than a gasoline engine.
2) This boat was the quietest and smoothest boat I have ever been in. Really, there were virtually no vibrations.
3)Maintenece does cost alot, I guess with a diesel you just have to hope it lasts like it should
4)This is true but the prices are slowly coming down. As they refine more diesel gas the prices will again drop below gasoline prices... just give it time.
5)Very true on the cost
6)diesel fuel is at about every other gas station around, I don't think there would ever be a problem finding it. Diesel at the marinas would be hard to find, but refer to the post above about that.
7)This could be true, but the international market of diesel boats is very high and you could probably resale it internationally fairly easily
8)Well stated

Cody,

Being one of, probably, a dozen people who have been in a diesel wakeboarding boat... you would know more about this topic than almost anyone... so I wont argue any of your points.

I liken a diesel boat to a diesel truck... there are good ones and bad ones with no way of telling them apart. If there is no practical reason for owning a diesel truck (towing power)... why pay the extra cash (through the entire ownership cycle) and assume the extra risk?

I dont know how long your season is... but, IMO a diesel will break down more often than a gas motor and you will spend more time waiting on hard to get replacement parts.

Sounds like less time on the water, less cash in your wallet and more time visting the inlaws

I think the diesel is only for a very small market. If someone has the extra money to spend on a diesel, then why not. The wake was more solid then the gas boat, and smoother, but unless you have extra money to unload there is probably no big reason. One other bonus to a diesel though... at least in utah, you can buy farm diesel (cannot buy for cars or other vehicles that will use the road) for about a buck cheaper than regular diesel. It cuts out the taxes on the gas.

I am surpised that no one has mentioned the 4 cylinder turbo diesel that Jeep is putting in some of their liberties as a possible engine..

deisel would be sweet, it could completely eliminat the need for ballast because of the sheer weight of the engine. And if you did want to add ballast, the boat would not be sluggish at all and would get the same gas mileage. It doesn't get any better than that. Think about it. A boat in stock form that could throw a pro wake with no ballast so all that sorage is opened up for whatever. It would be an expensive option, but the boat would hold it's value much better and it would be easier to sell a used diesel that it would be gas. How badass would it be to see a Powerstroke emblem on the side of a boat?

red diesel is a buck cheaper than regular in utah!!!??!?!?!?!?! damn!! it's a whole 11 cents cheaper here. damn, i wish ca wasn't the tax haven that it is.

Sorry guys, I can't find my camera cord. As soon as I do I'll post my pics.

Wakemeister,

Since you've built more than one, I assume the exhaust wasn't so bad?

Also, where did you get the engine? Was it previously marinized?

The place where people go wrong with Diesel engines and they start to give them trouble is where they are not properly and/or regularly serviced. If they are you shouldn't have any problems

i'm thinking a marinized duramax would be optimal. even in stock, CARB-approved form it has 360hp and 650 lbs of tq. that would be WAAAY more than adequate for a sacked-out vlx/xstar/24v/22ssv/sante/etc. you would be able to just about sink the boats before you ran out of power/torque! in addition, you could run at what, 2300rpm or something ridiculous like that? sounds perfect imho.

If they put one of the big 3's diesel engines in a boat I would only want the durmax. Could you imagine sitting next a powerstroke or cummings? Regardless of which engine is best, the noise of the other two is just too much for a boat IMO.

For those of you who are simply leaning towards a Powerstoke, or Duramax just because you like Ford, or Chevy respectively, I ask you if you have any reasons other than sound to back up your necessity of ONLY a duramax going into the boat. What about a cummins? Cummins is the only true diesel engine, being a 6 cylinder engine opposed to a v-8. For that reason, you can 1. put a much larger turbo anywhere you want, saving space. With a v-8 it has to be centered to get to both exhaust pipes. Diesel engines are big. Real big. Cummins engines are also built to be hopped up quite a bit more than a duramax is. Just a personal oppinion....

duramax because of indmar's affiliation with gm.

Cummins has been in marine market for years, engines are virtually unbreakable compared to strokes. Rebuilds are needed on strokes way before cummins and duramax has been in chevy's only about 5 years. Need more time to prove itself. We have cummins engines similar to what is in dodge's as auxilary engines on tugboats and they can scream for a week at a time 24/7 before shutting them down to check fluids and virtually trouble free. Wouldn't want anything less proven. No brand perfect, but cummins pretty reputable.
My 03 not nearly as loud as duramax or strokes.
Cummins heavier- Not much need for a lot of rear ballast = more storage, but going to need some serious weight to bring bow down.

some boats like weight in the rear.


example New X-star

Big Ed- I'm under impression new x is same as 03-05. Something change on those? The few 05's I've been out on have carried extra weight forward of engine. I'm not super familiar with best weight scenerio for them. What's best configuration you've found?
Sorry for wandering off of thread! Interested in opinion though.

When I said new x-star,I meant 03-05.

People swear they need to put tons of weight in them but I just think you need to shape it a little and put weight in the back to make it more steep b\c it comes too mellow stock but then again I just rode on one for a winter,don't own one.

Hey folks,

I'm new to this forum. I'm a regular at the Supra board, and Launch99 recommended this site. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even newbies, so i guess i'll just throw in my $0.02.

There were a few posts above that kinda bugged me. Thought i'd comment. Nothing personal to the posters; part of what is so great about a free society is the ability to say what you want. The cost of that is that sometimes you have to put up with people questioning your reasoning.

By Alex Spyksma:
"Cummins is the only true diesel engine, being a 6 cylinder engine opposed to a v-8."

Alex before i start, i will go ahead and state that i hold a loyalty to GM (my boat has a PCM Ford 351W, go figure). This doesnt have much effect on my opinion of diesels because none of the Big 3 manufacture their own. The GM Duramax is made by Isuzu; the Ford Powerstroke is made by International; and the Dodge, is obviously made by Cummins.

Hmmm... by definition, a diesel engine is essentially an internal combustion engine that relies on the pressure and heat of extreme compression alone to initiate combustion. I know of diesel engines ranging from inline-3s to v-16s. However, I do respect your point of view that an inline-6 design does have its advantages. The I-6 design does allow for more space efficient packaging of exhaust manifolds and turbos. It also produces virtually no harmonic vibration in the crankshaft. The v8 design also has good qualities as well. 1st, it, like the I-6 produces very little harmonic vibration. The biggest advantage however, especially for a ski boat, is the displacement per cylinder ratio. Consider two engines of similar displacement (i.e., 5.9L Cummins and 6.5L Duramax). The V8 design allows for a smaller displacement per cylinder. This allows for a shorter stroke, which allows the engine to freely rev to higher RPMs. I do understand that RPMs are not key in a truck application, but they become more important in a boat that has only one gear and must sustain high cruising RPMs for extended periods. Although a shorter stroke does comprimise some in the area of overall torque, it makes up for it in the fact that the torque band can extend to higher RPMs. In the end, i think its about a tie between the two, the key factors being packaging vs. higher RPM performance.


"Cummins engines are also built to be hopped up quite a bit more than a duramax is. Just a personal oppinion...."

I can respect your opinon, but I think it is purely speculative. "Hopping up" a modern diesel consists of two parts. The small part is increasing ancillary intake and exhaust flow through upgrades such as open air intakes and 5' exhausts. The BIG power gains come from software. The key thing that gives a modern turbodiesel HUGE potential for power gains is the fact that the engine computer controls the turbo wastegate. The wastegate regulates the boost the turbo supplies to the engine, and thus how much power it can put out. In a turbocharged gasoline engine, the amount of boost an engine can take is limited by the boost level that starts to produce spark knock, ping, or detonation. This obviously isnt a factor in a diesel because diesel RELIES on detonation without the aid of spark to run. The key thing that tells you how much boost the engine can take is the exhaust gas temperature. The higher the boost, the more air get crammed in the cylinder, and the injectors add the appropriate amount of fuel. More air and more fuel in the same space equals higher temps. Let the EGT get to high, and no matter what engine it is or what brand of truck its in, bad things will happen. Essentially, the pistons melt. Thats freshman level chemistry, and nothing can refute that. Engine failure in a gas engine can often be attributed to excessive engine speed. This obviously isnt a problem in a diesel; they rarely break 4K rpm. I suppose a diesel could bend a rod due to excessive force from high boost, but, i've never heard of it. It will most likely melt a piston and seize long before a rod lets go. In summary, most people dont realize the dangers of "hopping up" a diesel. To get back to my point though, any diesel, given too much boost, will melt a piston and fail. No matter how much R&D any of the big 3 put into an engine, they can't change the melting point of steel, which i consider to be the "redline" of diesel engines.


By Mad Child (madchild1) on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 3:09 am:

"duramax because of indmar's affiliation with gm."
As mentioned above, GM doesnt make the duramax, they purchase it from Isuzu. Its plausible that Indmar might make this choice because of the relationship that GM has with Isuzu, but to say so would be no more than mere conjecture. I would think it more likely that they would choose a manufacturer with experience with marine diesels; such as Cummins, Caterpillar, or more likely Yanmar, because of their experience with smaller marine diesels (the Cummins and Cat powerplants are typically large and used in yachts and commercial vessels).



By Chris (badknees) on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 8:34 am:

"Cummins has been in marine market for years, engines are virtually unbreakable compared to strokes. Rebuilds are needed on strokes way before cummins and duramax has been in chevy's only about 5 years. "

If this is true, it would be very interesting to read about. Granted, Cummins built the first commercially avaialble diesel in the U.S. (admittedly, it WAS marketed primarily for stationary or marine use) in 1919, the other two arent too far behind. Isuzu started building diesels in the early 50's. I wasnt able to find the date for when International built its first diesel, but i' guessing somewhere between the two. Regardless, Cummins has been building them for 86 years, International roughly 65 years, and Isuzu, roughly 55 years; NONE of these companies are new kids on the block. I admit, i know very little about Isuzu diesels, but I DO know that in general, the Japanese CAN build a darn good diesel engine. We have an '86 John Deere tractor with a 3-cylinder Yanmar diesel that cranks on the first turn of the key every time; it has even done so after sitting for over a year! If you do have any credible info that Cummins are more durable than the others,i would love to see it. Primarily, the manufacturers' Mean Time Between Overhauls (MTBO). Although consumers dont look at this type of info, commercial and industrial customers certainly do, and that leads me to have at least a little faith in the manufacturers' claims.


By Kevin Vandergaag (kvanderg) on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 2:05 pm:
"IMO a diesel will break down more often than a gas motor."

Uhhh, no. Ask any mechanic that knows a torque wrench from an acetylene torch; diesels are waaaayyy more reliable. Commercial and industrial customers dont just choose diesel because of power and efficiency, they also do it because they are more reliable. Like anything mechanical, whether it runs of gas, diesel or "the force" routine maintenance is key. About all it asks for is an oil change every 400 hrs or 2 years (See the VolvoPenta website) and draining the water from the strainer bowl. Hmmm...arent you supposed to change the oil in a petrol engine every 50-100 hrs?Granted, when it breaks, a diesel is more expensive to fix; it is less likely to break than a gas powerplant. That is ALMOST clear enough to be considered fact.


OK, now i'll throw my opinion out there. Would a diesel in a ski-boat be cool? YES!!! However, with my personal useage (50hrs/season) there is no way i could justfy it. Even with the savings on fuel and maintenance (oil change is only every two years, but i bet the thing probably holds at least 10 quarts :-)), I would NEVER recoup the extra outlay of cash to upgrade to the diesel. Also, I always get a kick from the sound of the gas smallblock when riding behind the boat. Most never think about it, but next time you're on your board, stop, chill, and have a listen (Insert Tim Allenn grunt grunt sound here). I just have the feeling the clackety clack of an oil-burner just wouldn't be the same.

There it is: my $0.02. Thats gotta be the least per hour i've ever heard of. A penny an hour, ahhhh, if i could only make a living talking about boats. Hope I havent offended anyone, and if I have please feel free to vocalize a well- thought-out retort.

Cheers,
DKJ

good post derek.

Thanks MadChild,
Means alot to a newbie to get a compliment from a veteran of the board.

Cheers,
DKJ