Queen of Wake at all 9 stops

I want to know why the women are not at all PWT stops. The fixed cost do not increase such as renting lake, transporting obstacles, travel cost for ops team. The only additional cost may be gas, judges and prize money. The entry fee of $150 x 20 riders = $3000. That definitely covers gas and should cover judging cost. So what is the deal. Prize money? I bet the women would gladly take less money in order to get to ride at the PWT.

This is no knock against JR Men but I would be more enticed to go to a stop where the women ride as opposed to Jr Men. So why would they keep Jr Men and drop women. Who do you think would draw additional people to the tour- pro women or jr men?

Can anyone get the scoop from World Pub please

There was a thread about this like 4 days ago I think.... doubt it got pulled, it stayed pretty civil.

lots of talk about the women dealing with the pro-tour on this one

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/1/682437.html?1238376140

yes we covered it w input from nicolas dad. as i said, it's BS complete BS

prize money, insurance, marketing, housing, etc. $3k wouldn't even cover a small percentage of it. I'd think adding the women would be closer to $20k per event, so you're talking a nearly $200k investment over the series. I'm a big fan of the Q of W so I hope someone steps up.

Anybody know why there won't be any maven sessions this year?

No Maven sessions this year??? Really? I know a few girls that will be very unhappy about this.

This really true?

I asked over in the womens thread for info on this year's sessions and was told there will be none. Not too excited about it. Anybody have any more info?

I think in the minds of the organizers and sponsors men and junior men are the drawcard (maybe rightly so?)You would think though that the Pros would take preference over the amateurs?I have always felt that the women are not really taken seriously.You see more female models than female riders in the wakeboard magazines (unless they are in ads)

If it wasn't for Monavie there would be no Q of W at all this year.Who is going to sponsor it next year? Where does womens wakeboarding go from here?

i dont think World Pub would just yank women for no good reason. women def should be on display at all stops but its got to be more the 3k a stop to allow them to ride.

i know last queen of wake won a $10k bonus. plus prize money at each stop. so assuming the 1st, 2nd, 3rd place split like $5k at each stop 5000 x 9stops = $45,000 +10k bonus. Looking at $55k in prize money plus gas and judges and whatnot so...9stops x 3k in expenses 27k +55k = $82,000 to put on Qow. mucho dinero for qow.

glad to hear monavie is stepin up again for the women!!!!

The prize money is 35K. And you are leaving out the $150 per stop entry fee.

And its 5 stops. The other 4 have got nothing to do with the Pro Tour. Everybody, and I mean everybody is invited to those, so it would be kinda difficult to exclude Pro Women.

"prize money, insurance, marketing, housing, etc. $3k wouldn't even cover a small percentage of it"

Everything but the prize money is already covered. The men and jr men have already covered that cost. The only additional cost would be gas, maybe a little judge money and prize money. Chris Butler- Would the women ride for less prize money just to keep up the exposure or would they think that would hurt them? Is there any explanation out there from world pub?

I hate to say it but i think its a sign of the whole thing heading into the shizziter.I dont want this to be the case but im affraid it is.I dont really understand why the cost would be so much more either.

The money is not all covered by Jr Men and Pros, The women use a different boat driver and judges so they have to cover travel expenses and compensation for them. That is pretty minor, I would think the $150 entry fee covers that but I'm not sure.

The level of riding of women has stepped up the past couple years and draws more attention than in the past but from my perspective Jr Men riding is still a bigger draw than the women. It would help for there to be more competion, for several years women were dominated by Dallas then last year by Nicola. Potentially with Dallas healthy and the development of other young riders coming up the competition will draw a bigger audiance.

"I dont really understand why the cost would be so much more either"

Neither do I. And Roger I don't think it's the prize money that's the problem.

"the competition will draw a bigger audiance"

Not if they are not there it won't. I agree with Kevin. Circling the drain................

Well here is my shameless but absolutely true plug. I guess that the difference between paying a very large corporation to run your events instead of dedicated volunteers.

why do the women use a different boat driver and judges? if you already have judges and driver there for the men, why not use them??? and the money is not that much for someone like ROXY who spends a ton for mall space. or what about womens hair care products companies, makeup, etc. they spend a lot more for an ad in a major mag...

I was watching Fuel TV and they had Hana Beaman(womens snowboarder) talking for about how women should be happy for what they are getting from sponsorships and contests and they(women) should not be complaining. She also said something along the lines of there are men that are so much better riders than us and they are getting nothing.

George isn't the other driver Kyle? Isn't he already there to compete in Pro Mens? How much does it actually cost to pay a driver to pull maybe 35 pulls at most? Chris again have you heard any explanation as to WHY? Guys I'm not being smart but I'm in business and the fixed cost are already in place by a single division rather that division is boys, girls, or pro men. Its simple math and actually Wal Marts idea. The more business you do in the same location YOUR COST ACTUALLY GO DOWN not up based on per pull cost. If you pull 1 your fixed cost is distributed over 1 person if you pull 100 that FIXED cost is now over 100. Yes you will have more gas to pull 100 but you also have $150 X 100 instead of 1. Is this not correct or am I missing something here?

Can someone have Dave W find out. He's definitely plugged in, I think. Then again, World Pub may see him as an on-line competitor.

George- I am not dissing Jr Men at all. I think it is great. But I really can't believe you get any extra fans coming to an event because the Jr Men are there (except family). But I know you bring out more people when the ladies are there. I am not saying drop Jr Men. I am saying it doesn't add up to drop the women over the Jr. Men.

Kyle is the womens driver, I'm sure they pay his expenses, he would be there anyway I know, if the women/tour stopped paying expenses woule he still drive?

I don't have attendance numbers but I been to lots of events over the past 3 years. Last year women were at all the events I don't think I coule tell a difference in the attendance from the previous 2 years when they were not there.

I think it is really short sighted to not include women at all events. Beyond prize money the cost can't be significant.

i for one would love to see all pros be there women and men at every stop..

However,i can see why they would choose the Jr men over the women if they had to make a choice,it obvious,the jr men are future pro men and their trick lists are twice what the women offer up.

so crowd appeal and overall impression of wakeboarding would be if you watched the jr men and the pro women which represents an extreme/action sports more just in terms of big air and trick difficulty?

Obviously the Jr Men are way better then the women and there is a huge drop off from the top 6 women that ride to the last 10-15 that ride in these events.

you also have to factor in the jr men are pushing the sport harder and they are trying to push the top pros for limited spots and eventually they will be in the pro ranks,so really the jr men riding is just a branch to the actual pros IMO.

so for the average joe who comes out to watch would be more impressed watching the jr men then pro women and as much as the truth hurts the above average crowds which include other wakeboarders would prefer to watch the jr men the Women riders just for entertainment or inspirational value.

Of course noone would openly admit it and the top pro women have come a long way and there are a few that are impressive and pushing forward but over all the men are better and more entertaining to watch.

Basically makes for a better competition IMO.

BTW have you watched Snowboarding on Tv of late? i watch the comps and you see the Men and then the women and its rediculous how the women look like they are going in slow motion,getting alot less air ,and the tricks they are doing seem amatuerrish compared to the men.Im not a snowboarder but when i watch it on tv as an extremem sports fan,simply the women make it look boring and the men make me want to run out and try it for the first time..

again nothing against the women,i personally hope they get to ride at every stop but if i had to choose id rather watch the jr men..

flame away...

The voice of wakeboarding has spoken!

"The voice of wakeboarding has spoken!"

Just saying what everyone already knows. When last you see a decent article about a female wakeboarder in a wakeboarding magazine?Lol. Nobody but family and friends seem to care about the women.

I bet you could get some of the pro men to judge the women. I would really like to see the women at all the stops.

Bill says "However,i can see why they would choose the Jr men over the women if they had to make a choice,it obvious,the jr men are future pro men and their trick lists are twice what the women offer up"

Have you ever watched beach volleyball? The men would cream the women and their skill set is much stronger than the women yet the TV ratings are stronger for the women. So I don't buy the that some people would not come out to see women over men or jr men.

The women have my vote. Bring them on.

How about women's tennis.... Nadal (or any male pro) would crush any of the best women, but the women's TV ratings are outstanding. You don't just have men watching because the female tennis players look good either. You have women that play tennis, watching the woman's game. Are there enough women that wakeboard?

"Just saying what everyone already knows. When last you see a decent article about a female wakeboarder in a wakeboarding magazine?Lol. Nobody but family and friends seem to care about the women."

You just answered your own question. It's a numbers issue, and if nobody cares, then World Pub (or anyone else for that matter) is not going to put up the extra money to include the women at every stop. It's not an issue of whether or not the women should be there or whether or not the women are progressing the sport or whatever. It's a matter of dollar dollar bills, yall, and a dozen or so riders simply cannot support an entire tour. If there were a dozen guys showing up, do you think there would be as many events?

The women's division seems like it would/could be an invaluable tool for the tour to connect with a market that probably doesn't get a whole lot of play from (i.e. young girls, female riders, other riders' girlfriends, wives, sisters, etc...). I have a feeling that if they weren't actually losing money, they would keep the women around just for that different market exposure. It's pretty cliche by now, but these days, everyone's cutting back and the ladies' division seems to be World Pub's weakest link.

And comparing wakeboarding to anything else is pointless. It's not tennis, it's not beach volleyball; it's wakeboarding. If Grandma had balls, she'd be Grandpa. If wakeboarding had the audience that basketball has, pro riders would be making millions of dollars, but it doesn't, so they don't. That's just the way it is.

"i watch the comps and you see the Men and then the women and its rediculous how the women look like they are going in slow motion,getting alot less air ,and the tricks they are doing seem amatuerrish compared to the men."

Have you been watching pipe lately? Torah is throwing tricks most guys don't and Kelly is going bigger than some of the guys. Maybe ALL of the girls aren't as good but womens snow is progressing everyday! (as is wake)

"Nobody but family and friends seem to care about the women."
Thats not true. I know the guys in my crew stopped cruising through the tents last year in acworth to check out the women. I had planned on making the TN stop but DEF won't if the women aren't there.

didn't the women just start riding at all the pro tour stops last year. can someone confirm? i think they were only at 2 stops for a long time and just changed last year all 5. ya its a step back for women, but its not like they got cut from the tour completely. the story on wakeworld says they will be worlds, nationals wakegames, and 2 pwt stops. 5 contest for qow. thats still alot.

Wrapped KGB's. That is the answer to all the questions on this post.

They did all 5 stops for years and then were cut back to 2 stops 3 years ago. Last year back to 5 and now 2 again.

Marketing departments not doing their jobs!!

HH99 - i'm confused. how is it the marketing departments fault and which company's marketing department?

You want more sponsors, more prize money, more everything? Sales and Marketing!! They are not going to come to you (organizers), go out and get them. I've worked in this industry for some time, and I can assure you I would not eat if I sat on my ass.

for sure, marketing and sales have to bring in money and sponsors, but we're kinda in an economic recession. so i dont think organziers are just sitting on their asses, the cash flow is just not there.

i mean monavie sponsored women last year right? so why do u think they are only sponring them for 2 stops this year. cause they probably cant afford 5 stops. but at they are there for 2 of them.

the mt. dew tour is the most massive extreme sports tour in the country and they dont have women at any of their stops...and you know there women skateboarders and bmx and motox girls. so why are they not there at all. probably cause its hard to find someone to sponsor womens sports, plus the recesion makes it harder. its sad but true.

so its not just wakeboarding its womens sports in general. think about the top top female athletes in all sports dont even make big money unless they turn into models (danica patrick, ana cornicova, misty may, etc.) its sad but true. it think monavie and ROXY are the only companies that sponsor womens aciton sports tours.

(Message edited by waynesworld on April 02, 2009)

I don't think it's a case of Monavie being unable to afford it. They feel somebody should help them otherwise everybody sits back and thinks Monavie can just "pick up the tab"

Imagine what a scramble there would be if the men never had a sponsor? People would be making a few calls then wouldn't they?

"Wrapped KGB's. That is the answer to all the questions on this post."

Hilarious!!


I would blame Monavie for this... if they wanted someone else to help pick up the tab they shouldnt have been the one to pay for the whole women's tour last year and then back out this year. It's obvious that companies aren't seeing much value in sponsoring a women's tour.

I would be curious to know what the real ratio is of woman riders to male riders - not just "oh I have wakeboarded once" but people who have some basic knowledge and skills. 50 to 1? 100 to 1? 1000 to 1? Most women I know would rather look cute in the boat.

What is the point of the pro tour? Exposure of the sport to non-wakeboarders? Continuation of support from people who already ride? Trying to get people to cross over from other board sports? Financial support of the meager list of pros? Promotion of the credibility of wakeboarding?

you pay for what you get. if monavie only wants to pay half and there is no one else willing to pay the other half. then the blame lies within monavie for setting the bar so high last year.

Monavie was trying to set a trend, other sponsors should have followed. There are plenty out there. Problem is the powers that be got too comfortable, and now the sport is in a downturn. If you want the sport to grow, you have to put something into it. I have been on here for years saying these things, and all I got was " for someone who is in the business, you sure do a lot of bashing". Now look where it's at. You would think the Pro's would be chiming in to get more support, they must be content in their own little world. You can't put the blame on the economy, it has to do with how bad do you want it. Not only is it hurting the athletes, but the industry as a whole.

Oh so it's Monavies fault. Well thanks for opening our eyes to how selfish they have been.Now we all have somebody to blame.

If the allegations and statements weren't so stupid they would be funny.

They didn't set the bar so high, they paid the money that the organizers asked for in order to have a Q of W. The only mistake Monavie made was thinking that anybody else cared.They won't be doing that again I'm sure. The ladies are very fortunate that they put up any money this year. Nobody else did.

chris, i agree with you 100%. the stupidity of some of these posts blows my mind. i dont think anyone should post about business decisions unless they own or run a business, and i dont mean a lemonade stand...

Ya. it is their fault!!!

and chris i never, NEVER, said monavie was selfish.

Chris YOU however did say "I don't think it's a case of Monavie being unable to afford it. They feel somebody should help them otherwise everybody sits back and thinks Monavie can just "pick up the tab"."

so monavie has the money. they just don't want to spend it. So how are they not selfish this year?

and why are you all attakcing my comments. i like the qow, and thank monavie for steppin up last year and this year. but i am just calling it as i see it. sorry if you dont like it. truth hurts sometimes.}

To believe this is Monavie's fault is about as rediculous as believing that I need to bailout a banker who loaned money to someone without any chance that the person could repay the loan without regular refinancing and appreciation in home value. Just bacause Monivie was generous in the past does not mean they are being selfish now.

There was a women's tour last year?

I don't think it was Monavie the company but one of the distributors who also are the parents of Raimie Merrit. That was a big check for a guy to write and I think Monavie has hit its plateau and isn't growing like it was.

He probably planned on getting it up and thinking that would cause others to promote. I wondered what it cost him last year.

"Waynesworld' About says it all.

Why should the same people keep piling in more and more money every year while everybody else sits on their hands??
If this was the men we were talking about people would be scrambling to make it happen. But it's only the women........

Oh and Monavie have raised the bar too high.

Roger,you are correct it is one person and not the actual company that has put up the money. And now he has failed us. Selfish, selfish man.
Lol you couldn't make this nonsense up.

i like playing devils advicate.

Chris this is your quote "Why should the same people keep piling in more and more money every year while everybody else sits on their hands??"

So by your logic, master craft (who has sponsorsed the tour for the past 15,16,17,18 years or what ever it is) should pull out as well cause they too keep piling more and more money while everyone else sits on their hands.

Now that logic is "about as rediculous as believing that I need to bailout a banker who loaned money to someone without any chance that the person could repay the loan without regular refinancing and appreciation in home value."

Wayne, does MC finance the tour on their own??? Do they?

touche

as far as i know they do. i'm not 100%, i dont run the tour. but i do know it is called the MASTERCRAFT pro wakeboard tour. and to have your name on somehting like that be the offical boat of the tour has got to cost mucho dinero!!! and i doubt other coompanies are helping MC put their name in front of the tour.

Chris, trying to reach out to folks on this forum is futile. 99% of them are weekend faceplanters, and don't have a clue...

waynesworld, before one speaks, they should understand completely what the facts are.

Mastercraft is the only boat sponsor of the 5 pro tour stops. Local dealers can have a booth (there is probably some co-op ad money to the dealer from the other manufactures) They will not announce a "Malibu Team" autograph session from the anouncers booth. They will announce a "team autograph session" at "XYZ Marine Booth.

Rock Star Energy Drink, Board Companies, Oakley, Epiphone, Bilabong, Wakeboarding Mag., Indmar, are sponsors of the tour.

Evidently the major "womens" clothing and accessories do not see the demographics helpful for promoting their products. That has to change for the pro womens tour to be successful.

As a side note, the LPGA has cut the number of tournaments this year due to a drop sponsorship the PGA has not.

The guy is comparing a multi million dollar boat company with the father of a girl that competes on the tour.

A father who ploughed a whole lot of his own money into starting a Q of W series for the women,obviously thinking that people would "get on board" and support the cause. Silly him. Imagine if he reads some of this stuff. Anybody blame him for pulling out?

You guys are right. This is a waste of time.

George i am not saying you are wrong about "Rock Star Energy Drink, Board Companies, Oakley, Epiphone, Bilabong, Wakeboarding Mag., Indmar, are sponsors of the tour" becuase i dont know. but are they in fact sponsoring the tour itself or paying for a booth at tour stops. as far as i know it is not the MC RS board company indmar oakley epiphone bilbong pro wakeboard tour.

michaelspsp. do you have all the facts? if so, provide them for us so we can all understand them. if not...then you have no right to talk either.

chris i am just going by your logic of "why should the same people keep piling in more and more money." you are the one comparing appels to oranges.

sponsors pay money to support something/someone. regardless if it is a multi million $ company or a parent. either you pay or you dont sponsor. u cant have your cake and eat it too, by saying we want to sponsor women, but we dont want to pay to sponsor them.

And the "we". There is no we.It is one person.
Wayne I don't really want to debate this with you anymore especially as you know even less than I do.

Apples,oranges?? I don't even know what you are talking about.

Wayne, the "protourwebsite" list all of those companies as "partners". I don't see how you can distinguish sponsor, from paying for a booth. All the money goes to supporting the tour. I'm sure Mastercraft puts up more money than the others.

You are correct, "we" is referring to mr. merrit.

you probably do know more than me about the biz. I am not questioning your knwoledge.

What i am questioning is the logic of moanvie/mr. merrit...which according to you is "I don't think it's a case of Monavie being unable to afford it. They feel somebody should help them otherwise everybody sits back and thinks Monavie can just "pick up the tab"

Monavie/mr. merrit has the money to sponsor women at all 5 stop, but just don't want to spend the money. That is my only issue.

Chris if it is so important to you for QoW to be at all the tour stops this year why don't you foot the bill this year?? That way you and Raimie's dad can switch off each year paying for the tour. Or instead of bitching on a forum go out and make some calls and find the sponsors that the QoW needs.

mk Who pulled your chain?? I knew way back this was happening. And it's not that important to me. There are other options.

"Switch off". You guys cannot even speak english.

mk, im sorry , did i miss something? 1 Chris did not start this thread. 2 I didnt see any bitching anywhere. i did see added input from someone who knows more about the subject than you.

I'm sure womens board sales are weak compared to mens and in a tight year where board companies are preparing for the worst they have to look at each dollar spent to make sure they are getting their monies worth.

It may be unfair or sad but I think it is just a reality of the market this year.

Most of the pro mens riders are ambassadors to our sport. They really promote it and try to grow the sport by sharing their stoke. Now I am not saying that women don't do that, but from what I have seen the men do a better job at that. If I am right in that belief (and it is only just an opinion I have) then sponsors are going to put their dollars behind the people growing the sport.

the point of sponsorships is to get some ROI. I dont think Mr. Merrit or MonaVie saw any of that, and therefore felt it was not a wise business decision to continue throwing money into the tour.

and how does that apply to womens volleyball and other womens sports that both men and women watch/compete? do you think women buy more volleyballs? What if roxy or a hair care company or a makeup company got involved? its about women and sports not just wakeboarding. the point made , i believe is..is anyone from the Pro Tour trying to contact these companies to get sponsorship money? if not, why not?

find a way to do it cheaper........more volunteers, find a venue that would be stoked to hold a world class competition giving there ski/wake school exposure, im sure a wake fan would gladly donate a boat for the day, accomadation=camping=bbq=cheap=fun! sick! ! around our area if i wanted to host a competition i could call on loads of friends who would be stoked to be spending the day chilling at the lake helping out with other friends knowing they have given back to the sport!............the whole thing just needs more love and less "we need it to be big time" its not a big massive sport that will compete with snowboarding or tennis or what ever so it needs more home grown competitions building the sport from the base. and for the record i vote for pro women over junior men.

Peter- The only issue with that is when someone gets hurt using someones personal boat, here comes the lawsuits. But yes the more volunteers is a start. But this brings us back to the question NOBODY has wanted to talk about. REALISTICLY HOW MUCH MORE DOES IT COST TO ADD ANOTHER DIVISION TO AN ALREADY EXISTING EVENT?
I do run a business and am very hard pressed to believe it cost a significant amount of money to make a few more pulls. Best case they had aprox 20 women last year (4 heats of 5). Then narrow that # down to say 8 (2 heats of 4) and then 1 heat of 4 for finals. Total 32 pulls. at OWC how much does it cost to drive the boat down and back 32 times? What other cost does World Pub incur besides gas, a driver, and judges? Then there is the prize money which everyone has already said.
PLEASE what other cost could there be? The boat is already there. Sliders are set up. Kyle (boat driver #2) is there. Judges? Someone please tell me what additional cost are incurred by running Pro Women?

Also I heard the womens board sales have increased exponentially over the last few years? Anyone know is this correct?

I too am a business owner of various businesses over the past 25 years. i agree with Jim T, fixed costs are there. variable costs are minimal. i planed on going to Knoxville with my 11 yr old daughter because i thought the women would be there.... i already paid for the hotel, non-refundable...

USA Wakeboard would love to have the chance to do it. Our entry fees are 1/2 and so is the annual membership. Nationals is set on a non pro tour date. Y'all get the cash purse and Ill make sure that 100% of it is paid out to Womans Division. It would be an honor to do so. Oh and no it would not cost me any more than boat gas.

Michael, wish we would have heard about this earlier too. We got flights to the Knoxville stop based on the tour schedule released in Jan. where women were supposed to be at all 5 stops.

I would love to see the women ride also but I think your underestimating what it takes to operate the tour. There are 3 parts of putting on a tour. 1. Promoting the event to get a good crowd. 2. Getting sponsorship money. 3. Operating the tour.

World Pub doesn't just sit on their hands. They are very involved in trying to get people out to the site. They have an advanced team that goes out and works it before the date to get the crowds out there. The more sponsorships they get the more money they make. I think most people feel they have not performed well in those 2 areas but it is not because they sit on their hands.

The 3rd, operating the tour, they absolutely kill it. The pro tour and KOW events are very, very well run. From Priscilla getting the registration going and basically managing much of the event to Chris organizing and training judges to Bob who makes sure everything runs smoothly. You could not do this with a volunteer squad. Getting the obstacles and all the other stuff from site to site, the boats there and running a seamless tournament every time is not easy. Say what you want about the other part but they run a great tournament operationally.

"I would love to see the women ride also but I think your underestimating what it takes to operate the tour."

THIS IS WHAT WE ARE ASKING. What does it take to run the womens division? NOBODY YET has wanted to address this question other than World Pub does good yada yada yada. We know they do good. I am asking how much MORE could it cost to make 32 more pulls. TO MY KNOWLEDGE THERE ARE NO OTHER ADDITIONAL COSTS other than gas, driver, judges and would this not easily be covered by the womens entry fee of $150? If I am missing something SOMEONE please say

and prize money which is a given.

thats the $64 question...

You can see what Anna Hajek thinks about it here.
http://www.boardingitup.com/Anna_Hajek_interview.htm

Chris Walker- What would it take to put on a legitimate Pro Tour for the women? A multi stop series with the atmosphere that the Pro Tour has with booths and so forth. Could this be done on your end? Im sure its a little late for 2009 but what about 2010? Doesn't Mike Brown have multi sliders that could be used?