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Old     (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       02-02-2018, 4:32 AM Reply   
Personally 2017 was centurion year all the way with their new models.
2018, definitely goes to Supra SL.
They really achieve something to call it "game changer" With a fairly good price compare to his nearest competitors.
In a time that most models only made small upgrades Supra have done some Key changes that really put them on the elite boat map, maybe even in the top.

- The new tower is simply awesome. With the new Bimini top full coverage AND the automated folding that works very well.

- side in-floor ballast. Finally! Donít have to take the whole Port side storage to put a side bag anymore. Or you can even use it to put another side bag.

Sadly at the boat show you canít try them!
But the Wakesurf school professor has some business with the Nautique/Moomba dealership. He always Preached the G23 but he tried the SL for a month and just kept it.
I know him fair well and I think he ever spoke me of any boat like that and this long haha..
Canít wait to try it this summer.

I remember the times when we said Supra!? Nah just an entry boat for the big price.
Not the case anymore.
Supra made his name and itís an hidden gem that really worth the look.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Mike88; 02-02-2018 at 4:33 AM. Reason: Photos
Old     (aricsx15)      Join Date: Jan 2014       02-02-2018, 7:30 AM Reply   
That tower ruins it
Old     (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-02-2018, 7:34 AM Reply   
The tower is growing on me.

I'm excited to go sit in a SL this weekend at the boat show. As a supra guy I have been tempted to make my next boat be a used G23. The SL might just sway me back in the Supra direction.
Old     (CALIV210)      Join Date: Jun 2015       02-02-2018, 7:43 AM Reply   
Are the pics upside down for all of you too?
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-02-2018, 9:37 AM Reply   
SL is a gem without a doubts But as far as quality,size, wave I feel that a properly done 16-17 SE has top of the class credentials. It is just a DAMN Sweet boat. Supra is not messing around folks!
Old     (boatinal)      Join Date: Dec 2015       02-02-2018, 9:59 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by CALIV210 View Post
Are the pics upside down for all of you too?
Yes
Old     (Stazi)      Join Date: Sep 2011       02-02-2018, 12:32 PM Reply   
Holy **** the boat does inverts for you!
Old     (Ttime41)      Join Date: Nov 2011       02-02-2018, 1:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
SL is a gem without a doubts But as far as quality,size, wave I feel that a properly done 16-17 SE has top of the class credentials. It is just a DAMN Sweet boat. Supra is not messing around folks!
The SE is definitely awesome for the size and obviously great wakes, but it's missing a couple things that only the SL offers at this point. Sub-floor ballast (still 3500 lbs), hugely upgraded stereo system with dual sub option, subfloor storage locker, and surf locker in the rear. Don't get me wrong, I love the SE, but right now it is lacking in some things that the SL has. I'm really hoping they redesign the SE for next year to match the features the SL has.
Old     (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       02-02-2018, 2:33 PM Reply   
Totally agreed with Ttime

The SL have some serious options that other Supra ain’t have for now. Due to their huge innovation surely they gonna make it on the other models in 2019 maybe.
They concentrate their efforts in a particular boat to make a game changer and now they probably work a little bit on the others to integrate these new options.

And sorry guys for the pictures! I’ve tried two times to invert them and not capable -.-. Don’t know why

Last edited by Mike88; 02-02-2018 at 2:35 PM.
Old     (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-02-2018, 3:30 PM Reply   
If you run the boat upside down it will overheat, and all the water will fall out of the lake. Please fix, it is giving me a headache.
Old     (rexlex01)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-02-2018, 8:06 PM Reply   
Another boat with an extreme leaning tower touching the water.
Where is that old thread?
Old     (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-02-2018, 8:14 PM Reply   
I don’t like the tower. It’s like an ugly Malibu G4.... the new Tige and Malibu G4 are my two favourite towers
Old     (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       02-03-2018, 5:57 AM Reply   
I don’t find it ugly but yeah I admit that the tige tower looks better.
Thing is after owning a Tige i’ll NEVER own another again ��. Even if they make them the coolest boat in the world.

Beauty is nothing, it’s what you got inside that count hahaha.
And seriously... bu’s really got to do someting to upgrade their surfgate..

Don’t get it wrong. I never been a Supra fan and never owned a Supra either. But im capable to admit that they did really great on this one.

What’s convinced me the most is my past surf professor. The surf school of the city was there and they tried the SL. He always was a Nautique lover. Nothing but a G23 since I know him. But when we saw each other at the show man he was just so excited to talk about it. He was sceptical too at the beginning. A Supra.. nothing to do comparing to a G. But the wave was so large and not tweeking a bit he was sold the first time he tried it.
And it’s not because he can’t have anyrhing else, the school is in business with our biggest boat dealer - Moomba/Supra - Supreme/Centurion - Nautique dealer.
So each year they pick their prefered boat of the year.
Yeah I know he can’t take a MC or a Bu..

The thing is the 3 dealers are in the same 5miles. And i don’t even talk about tige because they was a Tige dealer in these 5miles too. And he stayed open 4years 2009 to 2013 and close his door because he was so messed up passing so much new boat in the meantime repairing the old models to keep his client happy. He decided to sell bu’s at the dealer next corner and now he is the co-owner. Now the only tige dealer in the state is 4hours away and trust me.. he gonna close his door soon too.

So if he wanted to have a MC or a bu for his school definitely he was capable but for some reason he decide each year to stay with Nautique/Centurion/Supra.
Old     (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       02-03-2018, 7:39 AM Reply   
IMO, those ^ are the top 3 anyway. I am also excited to try a Supra SL. I have a Centurion and when upgrading was positive it would be another Centurion in RI237 or FI23. The SL definately has my attention tho and I will be demoing an SL this spring. I thought the tower looked a bit strange in the pics at first too, in person its not so bad and I LOVE that its a "power tower"....only down side to Supra to me, is the Raptor engine. I really prefer PCM for a few reasons I wont get into, but doubt if that will be a deal breaker for me. A smaller part of my decision will also depend on how the fuel efficiency is. While that is not #1 on my list, having a boat now with an incredible wave, running 5k lbs of ballast and still getting -5GPH is super sweet....so be very interesting to see how well the SL does with the Raptor engine. I also really like the redudancy of the backup Supra switches so if there were electronic issues, you can get home. That is one thing that bothers me sometimes with the Centurion and some of the other brands, if screen goes out, you cannot do anything but get towed to dealer.
Old     (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       02-03-2018, 12:21 PM Reply   
Exactly D.
We both think the same haha.. I definitely prefer PCM too and When I’m gonna try the SL the fuel efficiency will be on my spec list and how is the difference between the 400 and 440 because with a 5,700 dry weight, 23,5ft and 10 people in the boat the raptor 400 seems a little tight haha but I can’t say that till I try it.
BUT I’ve seen the down side of PCM too. Don’t have the backup switch. That’s a really great pros from raptor engine.

Last edited by Mike88; 02-03-2018 at 12:23 PM. Reason: Tapping
Old     (Kjkimball)      Join Date: Mar 2011       02-04-2018, 6:05 AM Reply   
D and Mike,

What are your concerns with the Raptor engine? 2019 will be the 5th year for Indmar Raptor engines in the market which is something over 20,000 of them. Which PCM engine do you guys prefer over the Raptor from Indmar?
Old     (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       02-04-2018, 8:15 AM Reply   
Hey Kevin!
It’s not that indmar is a "bad" thing. They made good engines and they keep getting better..
It’s only a matter of preferences. Like I prefer chevy trucks over Ford and it’s only a personal opinion.
For owning a raptor 400 and a PCM ZR4 I can tell you why I prefer PCM.

- Just when you look at the engines pcm looks more tough, the raptor cover flap and seems pretty fragile.. but it’s just esthetic.

- the noise, the boat brand play a good role in the insulation it’s true. Some brand pay less attention in insulation and sadly they use Raptor engine.
Which is ironic because the raptor make more noise and the engine is less fixed to the boat and it produce more vibration.
It makes a big difference for me if I don’t need to scream over the engine sound but maybe some poeple prefer to hear the v8 like putting a muffler on their car.

- fuel economy. The ZR4 and 400 have not so much difference on fuel effiency but they are a bit. When you compare their bigger engines the difference is kind of huge (a post been made here a months ago comparing on video the fuel efficiency of 3 different boat and engine)

- the power, PCM engine definitely have more power And they are more comfortable to drive.
Not to be rude but the raptor 400 feels like a turbo charged Honda Civic even if the engine is bigger (6.2 for raptor and 6.0 for zr4)
Raptor is VERY prime.
The pcm instead feels more smooth, like a V8 truck combine with the good transmission.
That’s another thing that brand play a role. Because each brand use a different trans for the same engine.
I’ve not tried EVERY setup, just Moomba and tige. Maybe other brand or model achieved the perfect trans/engine match too. Really possible

- part quality is another thing. Like I said earlier pcm looks more tough, but the parts are.
The engine in his entire design is more efficient too. where filters are placed and other specific parts that are likely to replace sooner than other are easier to access.

Truth is, PCM cost more and you definitely see why.
Raptor is more the "economic" one. But don’t get me wrong! Raptor are really good engine too and they do their job perfectly.
Just a little bit less reliable.

Each engine have pos and cons, I told you my pos of PCM and raptor have pos too.
- the backup switch, that’s a total miss from PCM lol.
If something broke raptor let you return home haha..

- parts of raptor engine are easier to find and are less expensive. Due to rolling,
Your solenoid breaks (or wathever the parts), local dealer will have 10 in stock because it’s a "recurent" problem. And tomorrow your good to go.
PCM are less likely to break so local dealer have maybe 2 in stock and if it broke one week after somebody else you got to wait few days receiving the parts (but that’s just an exemple). It may be a pos and a cons in the same time. More likely to break but easier to repair.

- cost, raptor parts cost a little less, but the entire engine cost less too. Making more affordable boat wich can be a huge deal breaker for a lot of people.
And it’s not like they are bad motors, they are good and does their job like I said.

That my opinion!

Last edited by Mike88; 02-04-2018 at 8:21 AM. Reason: Tapping
Old     (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       02-04-2018, 11:09 AM Reply   
Mike said most of it and there is a significant difference in noise and I have been in several different boats with the PCM and the Raptor, I hear that its the gear noise you hear on Raptor, not the engine but its noticeable for sure and of course some of it is also due to the insulation from engine bay.
On fuel efficiency, this is just personal opinion but I like that PCM ZR409 (the engine I have currently in my 2014 Centurion SV244) is rated for 87 octane since its easy for me to find 87 octane without ethenol and lets face it, it saves money being able to run 87 when you spend as much time on boat as I do, Raptors in 400/440 require 89 till you bump up to the 460/575 and then its 91/93 and I have trouble even being able to find that fuel here. Also the 400 raptor is only 350HP and 404ftlbs of torque....my ZR409 is 409HP and 492ftlbs of torque, so big difference in power when comparing "base engine to base engine" (I run 4400-4900lbs of ballast on my boat to get a fantastic surf wave and even with 8 people in boat this engine never struggles and still surfs @ 11mph @ 3400rpm with my Nauticurl suck gate. I am at 800ft elevation...thinking about adding the GSA tabs this Spring.
The power is very smooth and snappy and absolutely ZERO issues since buying boat new in March of 2015. It is also "partial" closed cooled and since heater is part of the closed cooled, its very easy to winterize the boat and do the maintenance myself. Oil and filters, including fuel filters are easy to access and change...impeller and belt requires some contortions, but that is true on any inboard, I will say that Raptor is also easy to do maintenance work on, so that was more of a comment, not comparison.
I think Raptor does some slick marketing on engine size since the 400/440 are identical engines and relate to torque, NOT HP, with just a different tune in the ECM and the 440 only adds about 30ftlbs of torque (think that is right from what I remember). I believe the 460 has different cams and maybe a couple other upgrades, but its been hard to find details like that on the Raptors, whether its cause they are new or cause the want it that way is not something I know.
A big thing that turns me off, I have heard a LOT of talk about the Raptor engine not liking to be run at idle speeds, there is a long thread on another forum that I spent about an hour reading earlier today and have also seen dialog on in past, that info comes from the manufacture and problems due to running below 2500rpm are a known issue. Basically they say its a "performance" engine and does not like to be run under 2500rpm and if you do idle a lot, condensation will build up in the manifolds due to small cracks... and you have O2 sensor issues. This can also happen during surfing for extended period of time unless you are running rpm at or over 3800rpm. They say you have to "hot lap" the engine at end of the day to burn off the carbon for 10-15mins and run boat at WOT....just does not make sense to me when there is a TON of historical data that says that basically 50% of these tow boat engines are run at idle speed when surfing cause you are picking up your rider when he/she falls, etc. Especially when someone is new to surfing, but even experienced surfers only go a couple mins cause you are trying new tricks and not just standing there doing nothing (least that is how we surf). I don't EVER run my boat at WOT and its not something I want to do since I baby my stuff, nor do I want to put another 10-15mins of extra time on engine burning off carbon, or have to leave surfing early to do that when we are on a time frame.
I have done a lot of research cause when I upgrade, it will to one of these 2 engines and since I keep my boats for a while, I want it to be the right choice, something that is going to be easy to keep up, have good resale value and not take me off the water cause of known issues. Luckily I have another year, maybe 2 before I buy so I will keep my ear to the ground. Hopefully these are things that they will address since overall these are obviously great engines made by a good company (I already heard they are designing the manifolds differently). Since I am blessed with an extreme case of OCD when it comes to all my toys, it would definately be a deal breaker to me if there are known issues with engine, in a boat that I am very interested in (like the SL). I love Centurion since they have incredible boats/interiors/warranty/support/forum/reliability and surf waves (surfing is what i do 95% of the time) .....and up until the SL came out would not have even considered switching but my one "beef" with Centurion and many other brands, is there is no backup/redundancy to the computer screen and since I plan to keep the next boat I buy for 4-5yrs, that is important to me regardless of if the warranty covers me or not.
Supra SL is the first new boat I have seen that may be comparable to my existing surf wave (we will see cause mine is pretty incredible....but lets not start a fight cause not saying its best in the world its just already at top of its class excluding the RI257 which is in a class of its own and why I have not already upgraded to new). SL has a great interior/layout with all the amenities I/family wants for a comfortable day on the water, including a power tower which is a big bonus since I store in garage and trailer, decent pricing, a good computer screen with all the options AND the redundant backup switches that I have been looking for, the steering wheel with the controls on it which seems like would come in very handy for small tweaks when surfing. On the resale value, guess we will see. Historically, it seems that Supra has done ok on most models but a couple of the brands have made some pretty big leaps in technology/comfort/quality and Supra is one of them in last couple years.
For me....if not the Supra SL, then it will be the Centurion FI23 or RI237 for sure!
Anyway, again this is all my OPINION. Not trying to start any fights since everyone likes something different and I respect that. Would not have even written something this details if not directly asked.
Old     (Kjkimball)      Join Date: Mar 2011       02-04-2018, 11:11 AM Reply   
Mike,

Thank you for your detailed response. I too have always been a GM guy. Trucks, Corvettes, etc. The boats I have owned have had GM Indmar engines in them. My personal experience, however, is quite different from yours on several points when comparing PCM and Raptor. I have had the occasion to experience the 2 brands of engines in the exact same boat. A friend runs a wakeboard school in Orlando and puts time on engines in his boat for test reasons. A couple years ago, he had a 2013 G23 with PCM 450 in it and ran it for about 250 hours. He got a good feel for the power, load planing ability, sound levels and fuel consumption. Indmar then put a Raptor 440 in it that he ran another 300-400 hours. All the same driver on the same lake with both engines. Both with 1.5 trans ratio and 15" props. The Raptor saved him hundreds of dollars per month on fuel. It would plane a larger load than the PCM 450. The Raptor was not as loud in the cabin as the PCM 450.

The ZR4 is a 6L GM. It doesn't make the power of the raptor 440 when you look at the official power and torque numbers submitted by PCM and Indmar to the EPA and CARB. The info on the CARB website is a great place to get apples to apples comparisons on the power being produced by each engine brand. Why? ALL the engines are run on the EXACT same test fuel and these are the certified numbers as submitted by each engine company to the EPA and CARB even if they advertise otherwise. If the engine companies were to lie to EPA or CARB, they would find themselves in the same position as VW did recently.

PCM 409: 363hp@5500rpm and 341 ft-lb torque
PCM 450: 374hp@5600rpm and 351 ft-lb torque
Indmar Raptor 400: 350hp @5400rpm and 404 ft-lb
Indmar Raptor 440: 398hp @5500 rpm and 427ft-lb

The PCM 450 only makes 11 more HP and 10 ft-lb more torque than the PCM 409 and both are less than the Raptor 440. PCM went to 1.76:1 and then 2:1 gear to make the engines "feel" stronger when the Raptor first came out. Now the Raptor engines are getting these ratios too. On the CARB site, the PCM DI engines are 342hp and 390hp not 355hp and 450hp as advertised. Seems perception is marketed more than reality on some points.

I agree that the Indmar engines look more "utilitarian" than PCM or Ilmor. Indmar produces around 5000 engines per year for the tow sports market. That is roughly half of all the engines put in tow boats each year. PCM, Ilmor, Merc, Marine Power make up the other half of the roughly 10,000 new tow boats a year. That works out to about 20,000 Raptor engines in boats since 2015 model year compared to roughly 3000 PCM 6L engines during that time if we assume PCM spreads its 2500/yr between 5.7, 6L and LSA blocks. Volume helps reduce cost and since all the Raptors are a common block, dealers can have more parts for the one block instead of a couple for each of 3 blocks from a line of GM engines. Indmar recognized this too as the built GM engines for 25 years with a greater range of GM blocks than PCM.

Raptor doesn't have a backup switch. The post above was referring to how Supra helm has touch screen and switches for redundancy of the helm controls and systems. Not the engine.

The Ford/GM loyalty factor will always be there. A good friend of mine owns a 2010 Moomba. Has never owned and would never own a Ford car or truck. He is loyal to the General 100%. He has been a test boat operator for Indmar since the start of the Ford program. He has personally put thousands of hours on all the raptor engines from 360-575. He would never buy a boat with a FORD in it. But, he'll tell ya' right now, his next boat WILL have an Indmar Raptor in it, no questions asked. His time in the boats testing the engines has made him an Indmar fan in spite of his hard core GM car and truck loyalty.
Old     (Kjkimball)      Join Date: Mar 2011       02-04-2018, 11:19 AM Reply   
D wrote:
"On fuel efficiency, this is just personal opinion but I like that PCM ZR409 (the engine I have currently in my 2014 Centurion SV244) is rated for 87 octane since its easy for me to find 87 octane without ethenol and lets face it, it saves money being able to run 87 when you spend as much time on boat as I do, Raptors in 400/440 require 89 till you bump up to the 460/575 and then its 91/93 and I have trouble even being able to find that fuel here. Also the 400 raptor is only 350HP and 404ftlbs of torque....my ZR409 is 409HP and 492ftlbs of torque, so big difference in power when comparing "base engine to base engine"

No, the 409 makes 363hp and 341ft-lb and this is with 93 octane EPA test fuel NOT 87. It makes less with 87 but all EPA test are with certified 93 octane fuel.

D wrote:
" think Raptor does some slick marketing on engine size since the 400/440 are identical engines and relate to torque, NOT HP, with just a different tune in the ECM and the 440 only adds about 30ftlbs of torque (think that is right from what I remember). I believe the 460 has different cams and maybe a couple other upgrades, but its been hard to find details like that on the Raptors, whether its cause they are new or cause the want it that way is not something I know."

The PCM 409 and PCM 450 are identical engines except for the rev limiter being higher on the 450 to let it spool up and more more HP than the 409. PCM 409: 363hp@5500rpm and 341 ft-lb torque while PCM 450: 374hp@5600rpm and 351 ft-lb torque. Still both are less than the Raptor 440 on HP and torque.

The Raptor 440 is the rough equivalent to the Raptor truck engine. The 400 and 360 are detuned and reduced content. The 460 is a new intake manifold, larger throttle body, and 5" exhaust to breathe better. With all this, it is taller and doesn't fit in smaller boats.

Last edited by Kjkimball; 02-04-2018 at 11:26 AM.
Old     (Kjkimball)      Join Date: Mar 2011       02-04-2018, 11:37 AM Reply   
I must admit, my main reason for clicking on this thread was the SL. I haven't been able to see one in person yet but it sure seems to be the sum of a bunch of great things in a tow sports boat. I had a Supra 242 and sold it a couple years ago. Supra has progressed light years since 2011. Being an engineer for a living, I dig into the subject matter to compare facts to facts which is why I dug into the engine data above. I trust data that is certified under penalty of law over what engine or boat companies post on their websites or give out to sales staff.
Old     (Ttime41)      Join Date: Nov 2011       02-04-2018, 11:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjkimball View Post
Mike,

Thank you for your detailed response. I too have always been a GM guy. Trucks, Corvettes, etc. The boats I have owned have had GM Indmar engines in them. My personal experience, however, is quite different from yours on several points when comparing PCM and Raptor. I have had the occasion to experience the 2 brands of engines in the exact same boat. A friend runs a wakeboard school in Orlando and puts time on engines in his boat for test reasons. A couple years ago, he had a 2013 G23 with PCM 450 in it and ran it for about 250 hours. He got a good feel for the power, load planing ability, sound levels and fuel consumption. Indmar then put a Raptor 440 in it that he ran another 300-400 hours. All the same driver on the same lake with both engines. Both with 1.5 trans ratio and 15" props. The Raptor saved him hundreds of dollars per month on fuel. It would plane a larger load than the PCM 450. The Raptor was not as loud in the cabin as the PCM 450.

The ZR4 is a 6L GM. It doesn't make the power of the raptor 440 when you look at the official power and torque numbers submitted by PCM and Indmar to the EPA and CARB. The info on the CARB website is a great place to get apples to apples comparisons on the power being produced by each engine brand. Why? ALL the engines are run on the EXACT same test fuel and these are the certified numbers as submitted by each engine company to the EPA and CARB even if they advertise otherwise. If the engine companies were to lie to EPA or CARB, they would find themselves in the same position as VW did recently.

PCM 409: 363hp@5500rpm and 341 ft-lb torque
PCM 450: 374hp@5600rpm and 351 ft-lb torque
Indmar Raptor 400: 350hp @5400rpm and 404 ft-lb
Indmar Raptor 440: 398hp @5500 rpm and 427ft-lb

The PCM 450 only makes 11 more HP and 10 ft-lb more torque than the PCM 409 and both are less than the Raptor 440. PCM went to 1.76:1 and then 2:1 gear to make the engines "feel" stronger when the Raptor first came out. Now the Raptor engines are getting these ratios too. On the CARB site, the PCM DI engines are 342hp and 390hp not 355hp and 450hp as advertised. Seems perception is marketed more than reality on some points.

I agree that the Indmar engines look more "utilitarian" than PCM or Ilmor. Indmar produces around 5000 engines per year for the tow sports market. That is roughly half of all the engines put in tow boats each year. PCM, Ilmor, Merc, Marine Power make up the other half of the roughly 10,000 new tow boats a year. That works out to about 20,000 Raptor engines in boats since 2015 model year compared to roughly 3000 PCM 6L engines during that time if we assume PCM spreads its 2500/yr between 5.7, 6L and LSA blocks. Volume helps reduce cost and since all the Raptors are a common block, dealers can have more parts for the one block instead of a couple for each of 3 blocks from a line of GM engines. Indmar recognized this too as the built GM engines for 25 years with a greater range of GM blocks than PCM.

Raptor doesn't have a backup switch. The post above was referring to how Supra helm has touch screen and switches for redundancy of the helm controls and systems. Not the engine.

The Ford/GM loyalty factor will always be there. A good friend of mine owns a 2010 Moomba. Has never owned and would never own a Ford car or truck. He is loyal to the General 100%. He has been a test boat operator for Indmar since the start of the Ford program. He has personally put thousands of hours on all the raptor engines from 360-575. He would never buy a boat with a FORD in it. But, he'll tell ya' right now, his next boat WILL have an Indmar Raptor in it, no questions asked. His time in the boats testing the engines has made him an Indmar fan in spite of his hard core GM car and truck loyalty.
Love it when someone throws down cold hard facts. This response is gold.
Old     (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       02-04-2018, 2:44 PM Reply   
Good for you kev
You are sold indmar because your friends are and it’s obsolutely understandable.
When I was referring about gm over Ford it was not because one use a Ford block and the other GM.
It was just a comparaison of me preferring Chevy over Ford like I prefer red apple over the green ones and PCM over indmar and really not because one of them using a Ford block. It’s just a coincidence.

You can take all the specs you want.. and read everything the books says.
My life experience made me prefer my zr-409 over my raptor 400 and for me that’s The only fact I need to be on the PCM side lol..
You asked me why I prefer it and i told you.
You totally have the right to not have the same opinion !

Last edited by Mike88; 02-04-2018 at 2:45 PM. Reason: Tapping
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-04-2018, 6:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttime41 View Post
Love it when someone throws down cold hard facts. This response is gold.
Or...... love it when an inside man with indmar jumps in to threads on a couple different forums, only to defend the Indmar engines with plenty of different, unverifiable, stories about how the Indmar Raptor is not actually louder, less fuel efficient,or less powerful than any other offering out there.

I canít even count how many times I have got a PM from him on TMC.......Every time there has been a discussion on the Raptor engines......

Kind of annoying, but not nearly as annoying as how he plays it off as being completely unbiased, and just happens to have this unbelievable amount of first hand experience to support the claims that the Indmar offerings are superior in every way. Problem is, he only gets involved in Indmar Raptor discussions, and by the 10th random PM I got from him on TMC, I was 100% positive of the game he was playing.

For the record, I like the Indmar offerings as much as any other...... but shady internet games from manufacturers are annoying. Just come out with it, be upfront, and explain the high points of your product.

Last edited by Fixable; 02-04-2018 at 6:04 PM.
Old     (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       02-04-2018, 7:53 PM Reply   
Hahahaha that thing don’t surprise me at all
Old     (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Twin Cities       02-04-2018, 8:41 PM Reply   
Well I ordered mine with the same prop (2277) as my previous 2017 23 LSV so weíll see how the fuel consumption goes in comparison ... spray date is early March ...

One thing I can confirm is the noise but only if you go over 3800rpm it starts to whine ... below that absolutely fine ...
Old     (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       02-05-2018, 6:56 AM Reply   
Interesting information, wonder why you cannot find any of that info on the Raptor's when searching online (I wasnt able to anyway without some serious digging and have heard the same comment from others)? One thing I like about the forums, is you get REAL LIFE information from people, not just the marketing hype.

Why not talk about the carbon/O2 sensor issue and what is being done to fix that (if anything)? Notice that was not mentioned at all and those real life issues are a problem in a sport where you have to idle when surfing....this is a well documented issue

My issues with Raptor have NOTHING to do with being a GM vs Ford guy. While I will admit I have always preferred GM trucks, I have also owned a couple fords and besides the 6.0 diesel catastrophe, I don't have issue with Ford. Its a preference, and not something that would keep me from buying a Ford engine. I would buy a Raptor IF I know it will be a reliable engine and can use it as intended for surfing.
Old     (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       02-05-2018, 8:02 AM Reply   
For those who care, here is the thread about some of the Raptor issues

http://www.themalibucrew.com/index.p...ory-rep%C2%A0/
Old     (kenv)      Join Date: May 2002       03-06-2018, 12:28 PM Reply   
Is it just me or are all of Mike Del Monte's posts in Tarzan voice.....lol. I kid... I kid. PCM rocks !!
Old     (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       03-07-2018, 9:42 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenv View Post
Is it just me or are all of Mike Del Monte's posts in Tarzan voice.....lol. I kid... I kid. PCM rocks !!
Hahaha.. not sure if it have a different ę*English*Ľ meaning that I don’t understand but yeah I’ve got to apologize for my talking and writing. English is not my primary language, even not my second.
Im French Canadian.
But up here I guess my English is good enough to understand well and be understand Hahaha..
Sometimes if things are direct or misunderstood it’s just because I don’t know very well how to say it.

And yeah ! PCM rocks haha.


Thanks D for the link. I Was reading it last year when I had my issues with the Tige.

Last edited by Mike88; 03-07-2018 at 9:45 AM. Reason: Tapping
Old     (kenv)      Join Date: May 2002       03-07-2018, 9:23 PM Reply   
Yeah.....,your French Cad to English isn't that bad. At least we get what you're saying!! Spring is just around the corner. 😃😃
Old     (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       03-08-2018, 7:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenv View Post
Yeah.....,your French Cad to English isn't that bad. At least we get what you're saying!! Spring is just around the corner. 😃😃
Haha yeah!
At least we have wakeworld for passing time thrue !
Old     (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       03-08-2018, 11:16 AM Reply   
I have the pcm zr409 in my g21. I will share a few observations in no particular order

* pcm seems quieter then other friends boats with non pcm...but no way to tell weather that is the engine or the sound material etc
* pcm requires you to take off engine cover, and drive belt to change impeller...That sucks...trust me it does if you have ever done before. yeah, you get used to it, but it is dumb
* minor but irriating issues like the glued together exhaust cooling thermostat requiring replacement
* pcm vdrive service vent kit required to stop leak of vdrive to bilge...pita because pcm purposely had narrow recall list, so plenty of people had the leak but not on list.
* no way to quantify but i hang out on planet nautique so i see lots of junk. like the person who had oxygen sensor errors to find out that the did not put the catalyst material into the actual exhaust part on someones engine
* and the ability to change the fuel filter in the fcc is terrible...but pcm blamed nautique on that
* the ability to drain oil and vdrive cooler terrible, but pcm blamed nautique on that
* engine circulation pump is off the shelf part with terribly small diameter thermostat bolts so you can plan on those breaking when you want to change your thermostat...i found out the hard way...

i think it is just one of those things that it is really hard to compare mfgrs...i am not saying pcm is bad, i am just saying it may not be possible to compare.
Old     (Bakes)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-08-2018, 12:20 PM Reply   
Well...my Raptor 440 on a Z3 has been flawless at 170 hours. Talk to me in 10yrs and I’ll have more data. Illmore, PCM, raptor....who cares. They are all good engines with great and crappy examples of each.

Things I like

Simple winterization/draining. Can be done in 10 minutes
Kinda simple impeller changes
Deceptively good power. So it does not feel like a rocket out of the hole; however, it easily pulls anyone up on slalom (from 100 pounders to 250 pounders) with a nice progressive pull. Never bogs down...just keeps pulling. Does fine with full ballast + 800 lbs when surfing
Starts every single time
Averages about 3.7 GPH all last summer (*or somewhere close to that. I need to look at my spreadsheet). We foil, slalom, wakeboard, knee board and skate. Maybe once a year surf and typically wreck the kids for 15 minutes on the tube at about noon.
Old     (Bakes)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-08-2018, 12:24 PM Reply   
Oh...and one more thing. Why is it my Ram truck with a 5.7 liter puts out about 400 HP and about 400 ft pounds of torque and similar displacement boat motors put out a lot less? Do they just detune them to improve the reliability given marine loads?
Old     (Blamey)      Join Date: Apr 2016       03-08-2018, 3:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes View Post
Oh...and one more thing. Why is it my Ram truck with a 5.7 liter puts out about 400 HP and about 400 ft pounds of torque and similar displacement boat motors put out a lot less? Do they just detune them to improve the reliability given marine loads?
Yup.
Old     (Stazi)      Join Date: Sep 2011       03-09-2018, 7:00 AM Reply   
Completely different type of cam. You boat never drops load like a car does while cruising.
Old     (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       03-09-2018, 1:07 PM Reply   
For owned a raptor 400 and a PCM zr409 I definitely have preference..

The ę*quiet*Ľ is much a brand thing. Raptor is little bit more noisy but difference is not so big when cruising the cover open on both.
Main thing is Nautique insulation. They take really good care of it and pretty much all brand that use raptor pass that step..
Really can’t stand the malibu noise haha it’s terrible..

For the simplicity it’s a great plus for raptor that’s true. We do our own mantenance and winterization and raptor was simpler. But not WAY MORE.
Some thing are little bit longer but still easy.

The main cons of raptor I found is fragility.
The V-drive bust up at the first 30hours.. and always had some minor issues like solenoid, hose leaking, fuel pump, sensor tweeking, cover flapping, cover brackets broken.
All was minor and repaired in a day or 2.. but still issues.

My dad owned a 230 for 8 years with the ZR6 and that engine was second to none seriously.
Never had any issue in almost 700hours. Loaded up, speeding, this motor has been surexposed of everything haha.
2 or 3 things like the O2 sensor and gas pump change in the last year but that was all man. Straight beast engine.

With the raptor I’ll be septical of keeping it 8years + sadly.
For working in mechanical car parts daily, my pcm engine is definitely built thoughter just for parts they use.
Like said earlier on this thread. Many issues on throttle too and we pretty much done the ę*all around*Ľ question haha..
And not saying PCM is framed better.. just 2 simple bars was holding the engine with the boat that was my first raptor lack when I saw that.

Fuel consumption is a thing too. Put a 87 octane in a raptor and you will broke it, simply like that.
You just can’t.
PCM engineered their motors to be 87 friendly (not the best thing to do. But you can without breaking it after 50hours)
Just need to make sure putting some ethanol cleaner for the gas tank. Putting 89 octane did great for 8years in zr6 but got to put 91 in raptor if not warranty avoided.
Raptor was more hungry too. Not WAY more, but still.
With that said, more hungry for less power and torque on a 500 pounds less weighted boat and cost more for high fuel octane..
not the best thing..

Raptor have great motors, proven engine but more an economical one instead..
For my opinion

Last edited by Mike88; 03-09-2018 at 1:13 PM. Reason: Tapping
Old     (Smoothie)      Join Date: Feb 2018       03-09-2018, 1:55 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike88 View Post
Fuel consumption is a thing too. Put a 87 octane in a raptor and you will broke it, simply like that.
You just canít.
I have a 2014 Ford Raptor truck with the 6.2L, and only use 87. Lots if guys on the forum have >100k miles with no issues?
Old     (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       03-09-2018, 4:31 PM Reply   
Maybe they spec different in the trucks, I don't know as I have not owned a Raptor nor do I plan too...pretty sure in the trucks you are also supposed to run higher octane and have heard a lot of talk that once you get over 100k miles they have constant issues (not fuel related), but that is just what I have heard and may not be true. I have checked into the Raptor quite a bit cause I really like the Supra SL and considered the Tige RZX3. In boats, Raptor specifies 91 octane, think you may be allowed to run 89 minimum in the 400, but 440 and up is 91 only and Tige and Supra dealers around me say the same thing. Sure you can put 87 in anything and probably due to the technology, it will retard the timing so it doesn't do immediate damage....but Raptor does say you are not supposed to and probably would test octane if it was fuel related warranty work.
I have also ready in couple places where people tried to run lower octane in their Raptor engine for boat and said it made a significant difference and they had to go back to 91. I have PCM and have used 87 ethenol free for a long time without issue (great power and fuel consumption) and manufacture says they are built/timed for that tho it will learn the octane you use over time unless you reset it by unhooking batteries for like 10mins, then its supposed to reset timing immediately to what you are burning. So you can use 87....but you can also use premium if you want since it probably does run a tad better. For me, I rather save a couple dollars a gallon buying ethenol free 87 at gas pump ($2.80 gallon here right now) , rather than 91-93 at marina where its marked up ($4.80-$5.50 gallon here right now).

8hrs surfing @ 4.5GPH can cost $100.80 @ 87 ethenol free...or $175-$198 @ 91/93 ethenol free. A 100hr season.....$1,260....or $2,160-$2,475 (so double cost for me). Maybe I am a tightwad, but seems like a no-brainer to me on the 87 octane alone, have not even brought up the other things that I don't like about the Raptor tho they do have a couple well thought out things, like the super easy impeller changes, etc. Like everything on boats, personal preference. What matters to make wont be worth a damn to someone else
Old     (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       03-09-2018, 5:47 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoothie View Post
I have a 2014 Ford Raptor truck with the 6.2L, and only use 87. Lots if guys on the forum have >100k miles with no issues?
Trucks and boats are significally different. indmar take the head unit of ford motors. PCM take GM one.
But everything else is different. You canít really compare them.. everything is different unless the 6.2L and the ę*raptor*Ľ name. Cams are different, ratios, trans and every other parts that made your engine complete.

Like D said maybe itís a false statement putting 87 in a raptor 400 gonna break it.
I just said what the salesman told me when I bought it. He clearly said to me NEVER put 87 octane in a raptor.. even it can void my warranty.. so Iíve taking it seriously.

i really have no problems with ford and indmar either
my dream car will always be a big f150 like Shelby or other monster models with a v8 since they put only the 3,5L in the raptor ( Iím so disappointed!) or a 250 black ops. Ford are confortable and the interior rocks.
But I prefer chevyís since they are more in my price range and really does the job too. For working everyday, maybe not a super good idea to put 75k on a truck! The 50k fully loaded gonna make the job for now haha..
And itís not because I prefer GM over ford that I prefer PCM over indmar. Just circonstances
Like I said owning the 2 motors just have a personal preference! But they are all good engines at the end.
Old     (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       03-09-2018, 8:23 PM Reply   
Me thinks it is NOT necessary to pay extra and run ethanol free. At end of season for storage you can switch to ethanol free to avoid storing boat with ethanol. But probably does not matter much if you treat the gas.
Old     (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       03-09-2018, 9:49 PM Reply   
Just to clarify things here. The 400 and 440 need 91 octane, the 460 and 575 need the 91.
Old     (Shockthis)      Join Date: May 2014       03-10-2018, 7:14 AM Reply   
Straight from the Indmar manual, the 400 and the 440 require 89
The460 and 575 require 91
I am not sure wear you guys get your info from. It took all of 10 seconds to find on Indmar's web page.

Fuel – Your engine was designed and certified to operate on the unleaded fuels listed below. Fuel ratings must be based on the (R+M)/2 method and meet the specifications ASTM D4814 in the US. These fuels need no additives for proper operation.
© 2017 Indmar Marine Engines
ix
In order to keep your engine operating efficiently and to maintain the Emission Control System the following requirements must be observed.
6.2L Indmar Standard 360 and Premium 400 and 440 Engines 89 Octane
460 and 6.2L Supercharged 575 Engines 91-93 Octane
Old     (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       03-10-2018, 8:29 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfer101 View Post
Just to clarify things here. The 400 and 440 need 91 octane, the 460 and 575 need the 91.
89 octane for the 400/440 typo
Old     (fullspeed)      Join Date: Oct 2005       03-10-2018, 9:15 AM Reply   
First off my first Choice is a Supra SL after going to Sacremento Cal Expo boat show. The price for a full loaded SL was right up there with a loaded Ri 237, but after sitting in both the SL had excited for a 2019 purchase.

Lots of great boats at the show, worth going. I should of taken pictures, but i was talking to lots of salesmen and pictures was an after thought.

The Malibu rep told me that the raptor 400 is more than capably of push a loaded down LSV and he felt it was enough for a SL. What is everyones thoughts on that statement. He says the bump up to the next upgrade was not worth it.

Also Tige offers that 460 Raptor, I was wondering if that is also a program upgrade only like the 440.

I did get pricing for the boats i was looking at.

SL 128K
Fi23 110k
RI237 134K
LSV 23 110k
MXZ 22 101k
RXZ2 124K

Malibu are no longer on my list.
Fi would be my second choice, RXZ2 and 3 were also very nice boats.
RI was a beast and was huge like a G.

I did like the GS22 and GS24 nautique. Very nice crossover boat.
Old     (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       03-10-2018, 9:55 AM Reply   
I’m not completely sure but I I’m pretty sure the 460 is more than just a programming upgrade. More like a downgrade to the 575
Old     (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       03-10-2018, 4:09 PM Reply   
Supra dealer here claimed same thing about the Raptor 400 being able to capably push the SL. I know the 2:1 trans in the Tiges have made a big difference in being able to push the RZX2 with a 400, so probably true with SL. The Centurion FI23 (Sexy boat) and the SL (power tower and redundant switches are a big draw for me, great looking boat) are also my 2 favorites but don't think I will be owning a Raptor till there is more verifiable info on them. Noisy and hear about way too many little issues with them. My PCM ZR409 has never given me issues, plenty of power and is super quiet in my current 24ft Centurion.

Pretty sure I remember reading that the 460 was more than just programming too
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       03-10-2018, 6:14 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfer101 View Post
Iím not completely sure but I Iím pretty sure the 460 is more than just a programming upgrade. More like a downgrade to the 575
The 460 is exactly the same as the 440, except calibrated to run on 93 octane instead of 89 like the 440. It is just a tune...... but also requires that you run 93, to get the extra 12hp.
Old     (Smoothie)      Join Date: Feb 2018       03-10-2018, 10:03 PM Reply   
Hmm, very interesting about the Raptor boat vs truck engines. My boat is always in the water and they only have 91 octane, ethanol free, but good to know!
Old     (Kjkimball)      Join Date: Mar 2011       03-11-2018, 6:26 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
The 460 is exactly the same as the 440, except calibrated to run on 93 octane instead of 89 like the 440. It is just a tune...... but also requires that you run 93, to get the extra 12hp.
Incorrect. All the raptor engines share a common block. The 460 has a different intake manifold that is taller than the 400/440. It has a larger throttle body to go with the big intake. It also has 5" exhaust instead of 4" like the 360/400/440/575. It has a different cover on top to fit the taller intake and does have a different calibration than the other models. The added height of the intake and cover over it makes the 460 too tall for some boats.
Old     (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       03-11-2018, 7:26 AM Reply   
It does seem pretty dumb to NOT tune the engines to work on 87 octane...Would be better if they could adjust to have engine run on 87 octane and then just tell people there are some performance gains on 89.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by scottb7; 03-11-2018 at 7:30 AM.
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       03-11-2018, 5:17 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjkimball View Post
Incorrect. All the raptor engines share a common block. The 460 has a different intake manifold that is taller than the 400/440. It has a larger throttle body to go with the big intake. It also has 5" exhaust instead of 4" like the 360/400/440/575. It has a different cover on top to fit the taller intake and does have a different calibration than the other models. The added height of the intake and cover over it makes the 460 too tall for some boats.
Exhaust outlet pipe on both offerings looks exactly the same size to me

I do see the added portion on the intake cover. Good to know.
Old     (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-12-2018, 10:36 AM Reply   
My SL just came in and excited to get it on the water and share how she does. Only been hearing awesome things from everyone. Few customizations being done and then we will be ready to hit the water... Will share pics once we have it all dialed up...
Attached Images
 
Old     (onlyinboards)      Join Date: Oct 2014       03-12-2018, 1:37 PM Reply   
Nice work!
Old     (Spotless)      Join Date: May 2016       03-12-2018, 1:51 PM Reply   
Wow Diggs, just wow. Really noticing how cool the lines on this boat are. I've seen SL in so many colors but just the lines don't pop like your picture does. Dying to know if that just a one-off lighting thing on this pic or if ghost makes it pop.

My son, Nick, always wanted to me to order a ghost. Now that he is gone, it's about all I think about. I cant wait to see more pics.
Old     (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-13-2018, 6:00 AM Reply   
Good looking boat Diggs

You usually only keep boats for a year or two right. That would put it at about the perfect time for me to take it off your hands for ya.
Old     (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-13-2018, 8:45 AM Reply   
Yeah i am excited about this one. I guess it is not true when they say "once you go black....." I am removing all the gray Seadek on the trailer and the boat and turning it to a teak brown from GatorStep. Tinting the windows and she will be ready to rock and roll. Should have some updated photos once it is done and will share.

Last edited by tyler97217; 03-13-2018 at 8:50 AM.
Old     (fullspeed)      Join Date: Oct 2005       03-17-2018, 3:24 PM Reply   
Diggs excited to see some more pictures of the boat on the water. Why did you decided to get rid of the Seadek and go with GatorStep? Also what engine did you end up getting?
Old     (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-19-2018, 8:11 AM Reply   
I got the SL400. It is only a few hundred pounds heavier than my last SA and it did totally fine with the 400.
GatorStep offers a wide variety of colors and with Seadek through Supra you can only get 2 colors I think. I want to go with a teak look. GatorStep is also just a good company and local. They support a lot of stuff around here and like to give them my support.
Old     (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       03-19-2018, 3:10 PM Reply   
So I have our SL coming in may but I have a few comments that may help.

1. On the raptors, I have now put hundreds of ours on several raptor motors. One issue, our SE that had I think 400 hours on it and a pulley for the SC on the 575 went out. The computer protected the engine, took to the shop and they replaced the pulley and belt and we were good to go. I have never had any other issues. And our SE was very quiet. I have noticed differences in loudness between boats before, but not due to indmar/pcm. It is usually due to the manufacturer and how they insulate for noise. I was VERY skeptical moving from PCM to Indmar but I am a diehard Indmar fan now, they have worked flawlessly. I probably have 1000 hours across a 400, 2 575s, and then maybe 100 or so on a 440, give or take.

2. Regarding tne 2:1 ratios and such. You don't need it with the Supra and I think moomba uses the same tech. I have been working on a video of this for quite some time, but I wanted to experience the feature on more than one boat before I finished the video. Let me explain...

I think the Supra has a 1.5(ish):1 trans ratio and is one of the reasons for the great fuel economy. I was concerned about this, but our SE had a 550, so what about in a 400 or a 440? Well the SL we took out, it also had a 550. But then we spent time on a max with a 400, and then finally a few weekends ago, I had the use of an SA with a 400 for 3 days and I was floored with the performance and Supra engineering. The Supra has something called Auto Launch, and it works extremely well. It works for surfing, wake boarding, and even cruising across the lake (with a small caveat). So how does this work and allow you to not need the 2:1?

First you have to look at the HUGE surface area of the Supra wake plate. You can see that plate on the SL (and its the same on all the Supras that I know of) at 8:28 in this video:



So when you surf and you hit it out of the hole that plate is ALL the way down and it doesn't start to go into your desired position until maybe 9mph or so. I have seen others with similar tech, but that huge wake plate really gets that back of the boat out of the hole and I can easily say that all of these supra got up to speed surfing as fast or faster than ANY other boats I have been on. I have even tested this and timed it with drones and such. The fastest boat to surf speed I had before was a 2016 RZX3 with a 575. I don't remember the exact time but it was under 10 secs to 11.4 MPH with a fully formed wave. Our SE was noticeably better. But here is the thing, that SA with the 400 and fully weighted with 4000 lbs, was ALSO at least that fast.

Now on that RZX3 and other boats, if you had a boat full of ballast for surfing, and you need to get to another part of the lake, you drain, right? I think we put 4300 lbs of ballast in our RZX3 and even with the 575, I had to drop down to about 3200 to be able to plane. Somewhere around there.

Well, our SE is a bigger boat, and we put 5000 lbs of ballast in there and it also won't plane to go across the lake. Until I understood how the Auto Launch worked.

The Auto Launch is software controlled and in order for it to work, it has to know what you are doing. When you are surfing, that is easy, you are using the swell system so the computer knows you are surfing and it does the right thing. But other than that, when you hit the throttle the boat has no idea what your intentions are unless you tell it and its as simple as using a profile.

So the Supras come with a profile called "back to dock". This profile is set at I think 25 mph and all ballast to zero. So you hit this and it starts draining and you head back. Well I did this one day and hit it immediately and there was no time to drain. Damn thing planed like it was nothing. I was going 24 MPH in a few seconds with 5000 lbs of ballast. There was no cavitation or struggling or anything. I was floored. I have had the boat for 2 months and didn't even know it did this. I had been draining my ballast to go from place to place.

So now on every supra I get in, I make a new profile. I copy "back to dock" to another, called "back loaded" with all ballast at 100%. The key for auto launch is just the speed setting. So I can fill up my ballast, all 5k of it, and then go 25mph just fine. And here is the kicker, this worked flawlessly with the 2017 Supra SA 400 I was in for the Wakesurf AZ event I drove for. I did this all day for 2 days with full ballast and full boats of people. I think one one occasion we had 8 or 9 peeps in there plus T and I. It didn't stutter AT ALL.

This works the same for wake boarding. If you are using a profile for wake boarding, it uses this system to pull you out of the hole.

So I left something out. How does that one wake plate do this? Its one thing for surfing, but wake boarding and cruising? Well, when surfing the auto launch system only uses the center wake plate. But when using a wake boarding profile or "back to dock" profile it uses the swell plates as well. So when you are set to wakeboard or go "back to dock" and you hit it you will see ALL of the 3 plates on the back of the boat go down into position and they don't start to come up until you are a few miles away from your target speed.

It works. I get the best of both worlds and I just have to use a profile that I have preset. I get out of the hole like I have a monster tranny and I am surfing with 5k lbs at 11.4 MPH at 3500 rpm all day long getting good fuel economy.

I tested this on the SE, the SL, and the SA 400. I don't remember doing it on the Max or the Craz though, but I am pretty sure it works the same.

One last note on this, I did notice that if you set the cruising speed too low, it may not work so well. So on the SA for instance, I set it for 22 MPH. And this caused the plates to come UP around 18 or 19 mph and then the boat dropped down and slowed down and then the plates went back down and it was a cycle and we couldn't reach speed. But if I set it for 24, it worked great. I just had to have the speed set high enough so the plates didn't come up until AFTER the boat was on plane. Other than that, it just worked.
Old     (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       03-19-2018, 3:16 PM Reply   
Oh, I forgot about the video test I did of the SE. So this video is "unlisted" on youtube, it was just a private test. There is no music or voice over or anything so I need to explain it a bit.

This was the day after I accidentally discovered the SE would plane with full ballast if I just used a profile. In this video I am using the "back loaded" preset I mentioned that is set to 25 MPH and 100% full ballast, which is 4500 or so plus 600 lbs of lead and my family and gear inside. Once the boat got to 25, I dropped it down a bit to prevent air from removing out boards from the top and such.

You will see telemetry on the bottom of the screen. This NOT from my drone, this is from the REMOTE I have for my drone. My remote has its only telemetry data and it is more stable since it is attached to he boat.

I am also filming this video from inside, but I don't have that with me, would have to dig it up, but if would show you that I do NOTHING but set the "back loaded" profile to active and then put the hammer down. In the upper left inset, you can see the display that shows you the status of the 3 plates, the center is the wake plate and the outer are the swell surf plates. The higher the number, the farther down they are deployed.

Again, I was not controlling these and there is no way I know of to manually deploy the swell plates at the same time.


Last edited by ragboy; 03-19-2018 at 3:20 PM. Reason: typo
Old     (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       03-19-2018, 3:53 PM Reply   
Good videos
Old     (bill)      Join Date: Feb 2001       03-20-2018, 12:49 PM Reply   
Its really impressive that it can fly and hover upside down LOL!!
Old     (supradougi)      Join Date: Mar 2018       03-21-2018, 7:42 PM Reply   
Ragboy, this was a great post, thank you. Iím new to the wake surf world and a first time boat owner. Tips like this are great for a newbie like me.

A few years ago I started surfing once or twice a year behind a friends MC. Last year when my 3 year old said he wanted to try it and we got him out on the board with my friend, he was grinning ear to ear and my wife and I decided we ďneededĒ a boat. So at the end of the year we purchased our first boat, a 2017 Supra SE 550. This winter Iíve been following this forum along with the Moomba forum, and I have spent lots of time watching your Wake9 videos, very informative, thank you for that. I was super stoked to find your You Tube channel and to see your boat of choice for 2017 was a Supra SE as well.

Needless to say I canít wait for summer, hoping to go wireless this year!

Cheers
Old     (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       03-21-2018, 8:11 PM Reply   
Our SE was a great boat, and can't wait for the SL.

You are getting in for the right reasons. ;-) I have 6 kids, only 2 left at home, but I firmly believe that playing on the water is one of the BEST things for a family. There is nothing that compares, and wakesurfing is our favorite thing to do and has been for 10 years and I don't see that changing.

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