engine problem water inside combustion chambers

so here is my problem any advice would be great or storys of similar problems. friday night went wakeboarding first time this year boat ran fine. saturday too cold so we go to start the boat up sunday morning and she wont fire. charged the battery and went back to the boat and pulled the plugs water comes pourin out. so we tow her to land. once on the trailer we crank it over with the plugs out and get all the water out. at this point the oil is fine too. put the plugs back in and hook up the fake a lake and fire her up it starts and runs pretty good except we have to advance the idle so it wont stall at normal idle. once its up at running temp we turn it off. check the oil and its all tan and merky water is in it. so we dump the oil and put new stuff in run it and its fine. dump it back in the lake and went for about 2 15 min runs at about 20 to 35 miles and hour bring it back in and we think its great. next day fires right up let it idle for 5 min and then turn it off because we wanted to check the oil its good. go to start it again and there water in it again.
SO IF ANYONE KNOWS WHAT THIS MAY BE PLEASES HELP
were thinking manifold gasket because water is in all the cylinders some more than others though. or could it be risers or what i am not sure but it ruined my weekend and it is a pcm 351 ford in a 88supra mariah ...(sorry its a long post)
thanks a lot matt

The news is not good your block is cracked
it sounds like it was not winterized correctly

Could be intake manifold,head gaskets or risers. I would drain the oil and check for water. I had two bad head gaskets on mine and when I checked the oil it looked fine until I drained it and seen the water. There is definitely a problem some where. Sorry to hear. I know the fealing all to well.

well i dont think the block is cracked cause we drained all the water and filled it with anti freeze and winterized it fine im thinkin more intake manifold or gasket how long do the risers last for thanks so much matt

Do a compression test and then a leak down test. The leak down should show you exactly where the leak is coming from.

It could be one of several different things and you will need to take off the heads and intake manifold to find it, but honestly, I would start seriously considering a rebuild/replacement. You may be able to find the culprit and get by with it after fixing the problem, but I don't think the engine is gonna last much longer regardless. Reason being, water does not compress. When you get water in the cylinders (even a small amount) it puts enormous loads on the rings, rods, bearings and journals. The fact that you had enough water to "pour" out of the chambers tells me you may have already destroyed the bottom end (think bent rods).

yeah i know what your sayin but i cranked it over got the water out again through the plug holes then we drained all the water plugs put the plugs back in and decided to start it up for like 30 seconds to try to get any water that is in there back out and it started right away and there was no clanking or anything perfectly smooth. then we killed it dumped the oil put new stuff in and now were inspecting exhaust manifolds and intake. couldent you technically run water in the cylinger but it would just act as a pump and that cylinder would just not fire? has anyone out there had this same problem and if so what did you do thanks

If there is water in a cylinder and it comes up on compression stroke with all valves closed the water will not compress. Engine will not turn over, sometimes referred to as hydrolock. Small amounts of water can leak into a cylinder and flash off as steam. An engine cannot just act as a pump because on the compression stroke all valves are closed.

sounds like a cracked head... waterjacket is leaking directly into the cylinders, leakdown test should tell you what cylinders are losing compression and allowing water to pass through into them, as the other guy said...

Head gasket?

Here is the sad part..since you had water in the cylinders and did not pull the heads and completely dry them out, they may have rusted now and that is not good. Just taking the plugs out and firing will not completely get all the water out and if your boat sits for any extended period of time then the cylinder walls will start to rust. I would pull the heads and get a look in there ASAP. Probably blew a head gasket or something to that effect.

Just put a $5000 motor in my boat from a similar problem. Good luck..

Compression test will tell a lot in a short amount of time!

I guess I'm the only one that thinks doing the compression/leak down tests would be redundant. He already knows there is a major problem and its location. I say just yank the heads.....soon. The longer you let that water/moisture sit in there the worse it will get. I talked with the guy who helped us rebuild ours and he says its probably the head gasket.

Pulling the heads off the PCM is easy....we just replaced our heads and got it re-fired last week. You'll need some basic SAE tools and a torque wrench (for re-installing).

Here is a brief tutorial:
1. remove exhaust manifolds, intake manifold and valve covers.
2. take a piece of cardboard, mark front/rear on it and poke two rows of 8 holes.
3. loosen each rocker and remove the push rods. Use the cardboard holder to keep them in order. You can remove the rockers also (not necessary at this point), but you want to keep those in the right order as well.
4. Loosen the 10 head bolts and use a pry bar or long screw driver to carefully pry the head off the block.
5. inspect. You will likely see where the problem is at this point. Be sure to keep the engine covered up with rags/towels while the heads are off.

I suggest you have the heads checked and/or rebuilt while their off. Remove the rockers (keep them in order) and take the heads up to the machine shop. They'll let you know if they're good or not and you can have them freshened up at the same time. Its not too bad, especially if you're heads are rebuildable. We paid $600 for rebuildable heads (ours were cracked), 3-angle valve job and surfacing, new guides/seals/freeze plugs, all new gaskets and head bolts.

You might get lucky with the bottom end since our motors are very low compression, but you'll want to take a good look at the cylinders before you bolt it back together. I still think you'd be chancing it with the bottom end if you tried to run it/turn it over with water in the cylinders....but its your boat.

He doesn't know exactly where his problem is and if there are any other problems that led to his current problem. If he tears it apart now with out doing a proper leak down test he might miss something, put it back together and have the same problem. Not doing it is just lazy and stupid unless you are going to do a complete rebuild any way.

BTW, with that much water in the oil the engine is probably going to need a rebuild any way. The rings and cylinders now are rust and the bottom end bearings are pretty much shot. That's not even taking into consideration the fact that all his oil passages are now clogged and have all sorts of crap in them. The water jackets and water passages won't be much better. I have built probably 500 engines over the last 20 years and would highly recommend a leak down. I have also destroyed hundreds of engines in the last 20 years doing demo derbys and it's always the same, once your oil turns to mud then engine needs a complete rebuild or it will blow soon after you put that bandaid on it.

They don't call me Bocephus for nothing!

Matt:

When you winterized, how did you "fill it with antifreeze" ?

I looked at your profile and it says you live in Canada, so I assume it gets below freezing there. If you didn't get a good circulation of the antifreeze then it is possible that pocket of pain water was left behind which could have frozen, expanded and cracked something.

The fact that you had water in all cylinders is a bit strange. Generally a cracked block, head or blown head gasket will effect only one cylinder or one side. A problem with the intake manifold does fit the symptoms, but I would think it would be a lot more than just a gasket, probably a major crack in the manifold.

I would still do a compression check just to make sure, but if that turns out okay then I would pull the intake manifold. In many cases the intake manifold is fairly easy to take off.

I am thinking that a pocket of water remained in the intake manifold cooling jacket, froze and cracked the manifold big time. We are talking a crack big enough to leak water into the intake manifold where it can get into all cylinders AND leak down into the lifter gallery and get water in the oil. Such a crack would also allow the intake to suck a little air which would effect the idle.

You might be lucky and get away with just replacing the manifold.

But do the compression test.

hey thanks so much for every ones help i did a compression test did not start the motor and warm it up because we dont want to hook up the fake a lake and get any water inside wherever it is coming from but compression seemed even out 3 or 4 but looked pretty even across all cylinders gonna do the leak down test right away
thanks matt

Which cylinders had the most water? What were all the compression readings? BTW disconnect the belt for your impellar, when cranking it over.

Thanks did the impellar. the most water came from cylinders three & seven with traces in the others. It was hard to tell.

i bet your exhaust manifolds are bad....

Cyls 3 and 7 are on the same side but separated by #5 - I'm going with exhaust risers or manifolds on this one. Are you running in brackish water? On an '88, though, it is probably time anyway if they're original equipment.

Matt, if you can find a way to block of the exhaust manifolds water inlets along with the impellar outlet, then pressurize the system, you can probably find the problem. Make sure to keep the water pressure under 15 psi as you will need to use a garden hose which generally puts out 30 psi. Home Depot or the like can sell you a pressure regulator for cheap I am sure. Unless you have access to a radiator pressure tester and can modify some fittings to work.

I would assume that is a carbed engine?? Take the carb off and look down into the intake as you pressurize the system. A mirror and flashlight will help. As Rod said look for where the water is coming in at, which could very well be the intake. Look at the planes inside the manifold and it might make sense where the water is getting in if it is the intake itself. With the spark plugs removed and if it is flooding the cylinders you are disassembling the engine. The exhaust manifolds can be tested once removed for leakage, by pressurizing them and simply look in to see if water is squirting out where it shouldn't be.

Hey Peter Yes its a carb I think the pressure test for the intake leak is a great idea. I think that's the next thing. It sure looks more& more like a tear down. Just in time for season start up. Thanks for the tips. Compression reading were done cold, all were between 96 & 105

Sound like revision to me. You may have a problem with you exhaust somewhere. Also you mentioned having to charge your battery? Well if you start keep cranking your motor over with a low battery you can suck water back into your motor that way as well. Just a couple thoughts, hope its nothing too serious. Oh also im not to sure I agree with having to tear it down cause you got water in the motor. If its a head or intake gasket or even a cracked head, you should be able to just fix the problem, change the oil a couple of times and be good.

revision?

Sorry ment reversion, dont spell well.