Another "trying to learn the backroll" thread...

Okay, so I'm working on my first invert. Decided to try the backroll. I've tried to throw it about 5 times so far... no luck. Here is a video of me giving it a shot yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seJ3sNkn-Bs

I think I see a few of the issues... but would love some outside feedback.

Thanks!

1st and 3rd you just threw it too early, wait longer. the actual roll looks pretty good. if you would have pulled the handle in hard on the second attempt you would have been real close. you're almost there, just keep at it.

Rich, that is awesome!

So, it looks to me like you are letting off on your cut near the wake. On a backroll, speed = distance, angle = rotation.

To fix this, only cut from 10-15 feet outside of the wake. If you do this, the only way you can make it wake to wake is to keep the board on edge hard at the wake. If you come in too fast you will instinctively let off of the cut which kills your rotation. Take a few practice cuts from 10 feet out where you edge hard at the wake and get a feel for it - then let 'er rip.

Also, be prepared to throw it about 95 more times. I know everyone here says they learned it in 6 tries, but I sure didn't. You're definitely on the right track - keep on huckin'.

Scott- Thanks for the advice! Love the profile pic.

Daren! Good to hear from you, man! Huckin' is definitely the right word for it! My riding has progressed so much since last year... but it's all pretty much brute force right now. I'm working on shorter cuts with a more progressive edge, but mentally it's tough for me to imagine gettin' my big body all the way around without charging!

I'm riding with Troy on Sammamish tomorrow. We'll see how it goes. I'm mostly trying to tell myself to hang on to that handle all the way through the spin... and keep it in more toward my center. Feels like it's pulling away from me. (probably because I'm cutting too hard).

"Also, be prepared to throw it about 95 more times."

Man, am I glad you wrote this... I keep huckin' and huckin'. But no dice. I think I've dialed in my progressive edge pretty well. HS w2w's are easy (which in itself feels like a miracle)... but for some reason, I just can't seem to get the roll. I think it's mostly handle position.

I'm told I'm getting plenty of air, but keep doing the same things... letting the handle out too much, causing me to spin slower. I make it a little over 2/3's of the way around, landing with the nose/frontside edge digging in.
I also seem to be spinning somehow, like I'm trying to go to revert. Not sure why this is happening or how to stop it.

If you find yourself rotating to revert, let go with your back hand late through your rotating. I do this all the time, and it will straighten you out to stick it clean.

A few simple changes and you should have it. You are bending at the waist and somewhat looking down. On your approach you need to roll your knees forward and push your hips towards the boat leaning away with your upper body. Up the wake turn your head and look up. Basically stand tall making sure your hips are pushed forward. This will allow you to edge completely through the wake and get much more height. A little hard to explain in words but I hope you understand what I am talking about. Don't crouch and break at the waist.

Apparently, I bend at the waist a lot. It's something I'm working on. The guys I ride with are always telling me to stand taller at the wake... especially when trying to get w2w on my toeside.
Thanks again for all the advice!
I swear, I'ma get this thing!!

If you need to stand tall at the wake try this: Pull the handle in close to your hips and at the same time stick your chest out which makes you straighten your back.

I'm no expert on the backroll but I can land it sometimes (three times in last two sets). I am finding that I was trying to throw the roll too early. I am having better luck if I try to pop and wait as long as I can before I throw the roll. When I wait longer I find the rotation occurs much faster. Stay tucked until you see the water.

Good luck and nice video!

I agree with the above posts and don't think your handle position is the main problem. It looks to me like you don’t have enough line tension at the wake. I think about dropping my shoulders back an extra few inches from my normal cut – same idea as pushing your hips forward, etc. I learn tricks by feeling them out, it’s tough for me to learn by reading instructions in a magazine. Get a consistent approach, then get consistent rotation, then get consistent at spotting the landing, etc.

My buddy tried this trick at least 200 times (no exaggeration) without landing it. Finally, while on vacation at Club Med in Mexico, behind a slalom boat with an old board provided by the resort, he landed it right in front of the dock full of people waiting for their turn. He was known as “the amazing guy who could do a flip” for his entire week stay. I almost cried when he told me that story.

Haven't read any of the other responses, but it looks like you need to keep the handle much closer coming into the wake and get into a more squated position with your body. Pop off the with the handle tight and when you see yourself coming around (looking up the rope at the boat is a good way to do this) let the handle out which will stop/slow the rotation speed of your flip.

So I've tried to throw the backroll about 25 or 30 times so far. They have all looked pretty much the same... I pop, flip 2/3rds of the way... bury the nose/toeside edge and crash.
Last week, I got some advice from an accomplished rider that I was spinning to revert and that I should just go ahead and embrace that.

So... I've been going for it. Backroll to Revert. Today, I NEARLY STUCK IT!
I popped, rolled and landed on the board perfectly... until I dug my heelside edge in and wiped out.
I didn't care. It felt AWESOME! I'm almost there!!!

less cut, more edge.

dont cut out as far, maybee 2/3rds as far.

on a backroll less is more

Spent a set trying these again tonight... like I said in an earlier post, I'm spinning to revert most of the time. Trying to just go with that, but still having problems sticking it.
New video here:

or here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqv6mI1g4K8

Rich

Rich, you are getting a lot of wrong advice on here. The problem you are having is all related to your cut.

After you edge out you are cutting back in towards the wake really hard then holding that edge all the way to the wake. This is wrong and it doesn't build the line tension you need for the trick. It looks like you are completing the rotation only because you are hucking your body into a roll.

If you do this trick correctly you only need to look up and over your left shoulder and the roll happens automatically...no hucking required.

If you fix your edge you will have a much better time landing this trick.

The correct edge is a progressive edge, you are not being progressive at all right now. You are getting up to top speed 1/3 of the way through your cut in then holding top speed the last 2/3 of your cut. This is wrong.

You want to reach top speed at the top of the wake, not before the wake, not before the trough, not right after starting your cut.

You need to just let the boat pull you in slowly first then SLOWLY build up an edge. Don't accelerate so fast! When you are half way to the wake you should only be at like 25% speed. At the trough of the wake you are maybe at 70% speed, then while carving up the wake you reach 100% speed. This creates a crazy amount of line tension which is what you need for this trick.

Take a look at your video again, notice that you reach 100% speed during the beginning of your cut, which gives you line tension. Then, after reaching 100% you hold that same edge all the way to the wake, in effect losing your tension and having to huck the roll.

Does this make sense?

It does make sense Chad... and in fact, that was the thing that surprised me most when I saw the video. Believe it or not, I thought I WAS using a progressive edge.
Then, when I saw it, I couldn't believe how much of a hard turn and cut it was. I'm also really surprised at how far behind me the board was getting. The crew on my boat told me this was happening, so I tried to fix it in my last couple attempts, but man... I'm shocked that I can't feel how sort of laid out I'm getting. I'm sure that's at least partly a result of how hard I'm cutting.
I'll definitely work on taking it a little easier next time out...
progressive edge. progressive edge. progressive edge. gonna be saying that to myself all week.

Cool, also I would recommend learning the backroll before you do the roll to revert. If you do a backroll correctly it will naturally want to go to revert. You have to counter-act this by moving the handle out towards the flat as you spot the landing to stop the frontside 180 from happening. Once you get consistent with the backroll then you can go for the roll to revert. I think it would hurt future progression to skip ahead.

I'm beginning to work on the backroll. The actual flip seems awkward to me... I can do a front flip or a back flip on the trampline just fine, but I can't do a "side" flip on the tramp. I believe that I'm supposed to look up and over my right shoulder which does get the flip started, but I find that I stop rotating about 2/3 of the way around and can't figure out where to get the energy to continue through the flip.

Derek,
As you can see from this thread, I'm just trying to learn these myself.
But... I'll throw in my .02 cents and people can correct me if I'm wrong. On the water, the line tension is what will allow you to get the full rotation. I have a number of flips on the trampoline myself... but the side roll motion is one that stumps me there.
However, I rotate pretty easily on the water (even if I can't quite control it) by simply keeping the line loaded and cutting up the wake.

Derek, Rich, I am in the same boat that you guys are in

I even went to a local gymnastics teacher and tried to learn the side roll on the trampoline

no luck
the videos that I've seen, and the kids in person that I've seen do these, make it look sooooo easy

I'm about to start trying them on the water again

guys, for the back roll on the tramp, lead with your head/shoulders, the body will follow. make sure you don't get laid out halfway thru as that will stall the rotation. and keep looking for the landing! once you see it keep your eyes glued on it.

(Message edited by mbsteez on August 20, 2009)