Muslims and Jews

At the end of the day the facts are the facts I suppose. Surprised the Jews having been accused of "stealing" all the prizes.


LIFE DOESN'T COME WITH AN UNDO BUTTON


The DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEWS AND MUSLIMS

The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000; that is ONE BILLION TWO HUNDRED MILLION or 20% of the world's population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

Literature:
1988 - Najib Mahfooz

Peace:
1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
1990 - Elias James Corey
1994 - Yaser Arafat:
1999 - Ahmed Zewai

Economics:
(zero)


Physics:
(zero)

Medicine:
1960 - Peter Brian Medawar
1998 - Ferid Mourad

TOTAL: 7 SEVEN


The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000; only FOURTEEN MILLION or about 0.02% of the world's population.
They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

Literature:
1910 - Paul Heyse
1927 - Henri Bergson
1958 - Boris Pasternak
1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
1966 - Nelly Sachs
1976 - Saul Bellow
1978 - Isaac Bashevis Si nger
1981 - Elias Canetti
1987 - Joseph Brodsky
1991 - Nadine Gordimer World

Peace:
1911 - Alfred Fried
1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
1968 - Rene Cassin
1973 - Henry Kissinger
1978 - Menachem Begin
1986 - Elie Wiesel
1994 - Shimon Peres
1994 - Yitzhak Rabin

Physics:
1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
1906 - Henri Moissan
1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
1910 - Otto Wallach
1915 - Richard Willstaetter
1918 - Fritz Haber
1921 - Albert Einstein
1922 - Niels Bohr
1925 - James Franck
1925 - Gustav Hertz
1943 - Gustav Stern
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
1952 - Felix Bloch
1954 - Max Born
1958 - Igor Tamm
1959 - Emilio Segre
1960 - Donald A. Glaser
1961 - Robert Hofstadter
1961 - Melvin Calvin
1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman
1965 - Julian Schwinger
1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
1971 - Dennis Gabor
1972 - William Howard Stein
1973 - Brian David Josephson
1975 - Ben jamin Mottleson
1976 - Burton Richter
1977 - Ilya Prigogine
1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
1978 - Peter L Kapitza
1979 - Stephen Weinberg
1979 - Sheldon Glashow
1979 - Herbert Charles Brown
1980 - Paul Berg
1980 - Walter Gilbert
1981 - Roald Hoffmann
1982 - Aaron Klug
1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
1985 - Jerome Karle
1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
1988 - Robert Huber
1988 - Leon Lederman
1988 - Melvin Schwartz
1988 - Jack Steinberger
1989 - Si dney Altman
1990 - Jerome Friedman
1992 - Rudolph Marc us
1995 - Martin Perl
2000 - Alan J. Heeger

Economics:
1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
1971 - Si mon Kuznets
1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
1976 - Milton Friedman
1978 - Herbert A. Si mon
1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
1985 - Franco Modigliani
1987 - Robert M. Solow
1990 - Harry Mark owitz
1990 - Merton Miller
1992 - Gary Becker
1993 - Robert Fogel

Medicine:
1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
1908 - Paul Erlich
1914 - Robert Barany
1922 - Otto Meyerhof
1930 - Karl Landsteiner
1931 - Otto Warburg
1936 - Otto Loewi
1944 - Joseph Erlanger
1944 - Herb ert Spencer Gasser
1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
1952 - Selman Abraham Waksman
1953 - Hans Krebs
1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
1958 - Joshua Lederberg
1959 - Arthur Kornberg
1964 - Konrad Bloch
1965 - Francois Jacob
1965 - Andre Lwoff
1967 - George Wald
1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
1969 - Salvador Luria
1970 - Julius Axelrod
1970 - Si r Bernard Katz
1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman
1975 - Howard Martin Temin
1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow
1978 - Daniel Nathans
1980 - Baruj Ben acerraf
1984 - Cesar Milstein
1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
1988 - Gertrude Elion
1989 - Harold Varmus
1991 - Erwin Neher
1991 - Bert Sakmann
1993 - Richard J. Roberts
1993 - Phillip Sharp
1994 - Alfred Gilman
1995 - Edward B. Lewis
1996- Lu Rose Iacovino
TOTAL: 129!


The Jews are NOT promoting brain washing children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non Muslims! The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics, or blow themselves up in German restaurants.
There is NOT one single Jew that has destroyed a church. There is NOT a single Jew that protests by killing people.

The Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels.

Perhaps the world's Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems.

Muslims must ask 'what can they do for humankind' before they demand that humankind respects them!!

Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors, even if you believe there is more culpability on Israel 's part, the following two sentences really say it all:

'If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more
Israel '. Ben jamin Netanyahu

General Eisenhower Warned Us
It is a matter of history that when the Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, General Dwight Eisenhower, found the victims of the death camps he
ordered all possible photographs to be taken, and for the German people from surrounding villages to be ushered through the camps and even made to bury the dead.

He did this because he said in words to this effect:

'Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses -because somewhere down the road of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened'

Recently, the UK debated whether to remove The Holocaust from its school curriculum because it 'offends' the Muslim population which claims it never occurred. It is not removed as yet.. However, this is a frightening portent of the fear that is gripping the world and how easily each country is giving into it.

It is now more than 60 years after the Second World War in Europe ended.
This e-mail is being sent as a memorial chain, in memory of the, 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians, and 1,900 Catholic priests who were 'murdered, raped, burned, starved, beat, experimented on and humiliated' while the German people looked the other way!

Now, more than ever, with Iran , among others, claiming the Holocaust to be 'a myth,' it is imperative to make sure the world never forgets.

How many years will it be before the attack on the World Trade Center 'NEVER HAPPENED' because it offends some Muslim in the United States ?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/holocaust.asp

I love how the rumor took two forms in where it supposedly happened: the UK (Great Britain), and the UK (University of Kentucky).

They're all delusional ...Jews too. They think God gave all of Israel's land to them. Not that they acquired it, but that God gave it to them. This makes God a realestate broker.

It's the 21st century, yet all of these religous people are living like it's the 12th

Read a little history and you'll learn that Muslims have contributed much to math & science throughout history - just not recently.
All societies rise & fall - it's the natural course of events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire

Its so profound to accept horrible/despicable behavior as the ebb/flow of a "natural course of events".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They're all delusional ...Jews too. They think God gave all of Israel's land to them. Not that they acquired it, but that God gave it to them. This makes God a realestate broker.

It's the 21st century, yet all of these religous people are living like it's the 12th [quote]

Didnt America give the Jews the land after WW2? I agree though, formal religion is becoming more and more insane.

^ I'm referring to the Israel vs Palestine conflict

Good segway Big D. How many centuries has it been since the muslim world had any advances?

I just love the comments continued about Israel. Most people continue to say the same things about them taking land and yada yada. The were not necessarily given the land by God himself, though you can argue a guiding hand of God if you wish.

With the mention of the Ottoman empire ( Modern Turkey, who are not Arab's btw), they held Palestine for about 800 years. Palestine the land included arabs and jews. The Ottoman's (turkey) then gave up the land via a treaty after their defeat during WW1 to the British. The British then divided the land 80% to Arabs and 20% to the Jews. The Syrians which consisted of 20% of the population of arabs pretty much took over the 80% of the arab land. The Jews were given a crap hole of land that Mark Twain had actually toured during his travels and commented on how desolite it was. The Jews reclaimed the land and turned it into a very livable place. The arab's attacked the Jews at various times and lost land to the Jews during war.

Palestinians are just a hodge podge of arab tribes and Jews. The arabs just want to take the Jews 20%.

I think we are getting a little ethnocentric here. It sounds crazy to a lot of people that we believe a woman got pregnant without having sex, and then that child performed all sorts of miracles, died, and then rose from the dead. I mean, who's to say some of our assertions aren't just as crazy to them? I am a Christian, but the lack of respect for other religions on this forum is quite sad.

Religon of peace

Israel occupies 1/16thof 1% of the land in the middle east. At one end it is only 7 miles wide. History has shown that when Israel gives up land for peace it doesn't work. The palestinian people don't necessarily want the land, but rather Israel irraticated. Anyone who is gullable enogh to believe that there will ever be peace in Israel is dellusional. The bible shows us there will never be peace in Israel until the return of Christ.

This goes back to the time of Jacob and Easau, Israel ceased to be a nation for nearly 2000 years. As the Bible so accurately predicted, they once again became a nation. 1948 marked a huge time in bible prophecy, not other nation has ever ceased to exist then come back to be established again. In fact they even have their original Hebrew dialect which is in itself a miracle. I support Israel, I stand by them and lift them up in prayer as I do the Muslim people.

America has been blessed because of it's alliance with Isarael. God says whoever blesses Israel I will bless. He also says whoever curses Israel i will curse. If this administartion turns their backs on Israel Amercia may loose it's favor with God.

Originally Posted by poser007

He also says whoever curses Israel i will curse. If this administartion turns their backs on Israel Amercia may loose it's favor with God.

You should never keep your favor too tight.

"If this administartion turns their backs on Israel Amercia may loose it's favor with God."

If America does or does not turn it's back on Israel I surely hope it has absolutely nothing to do with religion. Religion has absolutely no business in politics whatsoever.

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Amen

If this administartion turns their backs on Israel Amercia may loose it's favor with God.

It all makes sense now... This is the reason that healthcare has been passed, that we are in a recession, that we have illegal immigrants, the reason the swine flu is here... All because God knew that Obama was not going to support Israel and their new settlement push.

Lots of things start to make sense when you believe the earth is only 6,000 years old...

Too bad the bible doesn't teach the difference between "lose" and "loose."

"America has been blessed because of it's alliance with Isarael. God says whoever blesses Israel I will bless. He also says whoever curses Israel i will curse. If this administartion turns their backs on Israel Amercia may loose it's favor with God."

Funny how most Christians believe in this idea, but yet most do not believe that Jews can get into heaven (They do not accept Christ as their savior, so doesn't that disqualify them?). Jews deny Jesus is the son of God (the heart of Christianity) just as much as Muslims do, so what makes these Christians advocates of Judaism?

And Flight, with enough firepower, any former nation can come back into existence,.

And I'm not sure where the author of this original post got their info but from Islamichistory.org this is the list of Muslim N.P. winners:

Nobel Prize in Chemistry
Ahmed Zewail, 1999

Nobel Prize in Literature
Naguib Mahfouz, 1988
Orhan Pamuk, 2006

Nobel Peace Prize
Anwar El-Sadat, 1978
Yasser Arafat, 1994
Shirin Ebadi, 2003
Mohamed ElBaradei, 2005
Muhammad Yunus, 2006

A total of eight not seven.

Holy crap Flight, seriously... Your posts just keep getting further and further out there. I'm curious, what sect espouses stuff like this?

All Christians believe that America is blessed for being kind to the Jewish people.

Nothing like going to some ones spelling again to try and make some sort of point. Nothing is more endearing.

Jeremy, seriously. Are you seriously making an argument in a difference of one? Really? You remind me of the kids rapping at Nebraska football fans after the game in berkeley. They were next to the football stadium rapping about how nebraska did not blow out Cal in football. I seem to remember them getting beat by 20 points or something like that. I was just thinking that this is the futures brightest?

Before you start preaching Jeremy:

http://www.al-qiyamah.org/_/do_the_m...e_in_jesus.htm

“Islam is the only non-Christian faith, which makes it an article of faith to believe in Jesus Christ (pbuh). No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus Christ (pbuh). We believe that he was one of the mightiest Messengers of Allah (swt). We believe that he was the Messiah, translated ‘Christ’. We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention, which many modern day Christians do not believe. We believe that he gave life to the dead with God’s permission. We believe that he healed those born blind and the lepers with God’s permission.

Allah says in the Qur'an regarding Jesus Christ (pbuh):

And remember Jesus the son of Mary said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you…” (Surah Saff 61:6)


Yasser Arafat got a nobel peace prize? That is nearly as bad as Obama getting an award like that. Funny about that Yasser Araffat guy. He was actually Egyptian not a "palestinian" or hodge podge of people from the ottoman empire.

Hate to disappoint, but Jews can still accept Jesus as their savior.

True Delta, but I seem to recall that Muslims do not view Jesus as the Savior, rather as a prophet from God. I could be wrong.

And I'm not making a point, I just feel that it is a bit contradictory that we should sacrifice everything to defend Israel and the Jewish people, yet you Delta do not feel that Jews fit the criteria to enter heaven if they practice the Jewish faith. I'm not disappointed.

Does everybody here hate Islam? Cause I do! Just checking.

Muslims believe in the devine nature of Jesus and to reject him in that manner is to reject the Quran.

Kind of funny. According to the bible and Jesus words, the Jews do not get in by rejecting Jesus, yet Christians still embrace Jews as Gods chosen people. Don't put it as my words bud. Those are the word so of Jesus. For the life of me, I can not figure out why a single jewish person would actually vote democrat since a vast majority of the left wing hates them. Even when confronted with fact after fact, the democrats still come down on the side of the arabs. The arabs are violent. The arabs were given 80% of the land by rightful treaty but still want the Jewish peoples 20% of the land. Arabs want Jeruselm as one of their plural holy cities even though Islam did not come around until several hundred years after Christianity and I don't know how many hundreds after Judaism. Arab's attacked the Israel I think more than once and lost the high land around Israel that was used to attack them. The Arab's lost that tiny bit of land in a fair fight. Actually not a fair fight. The Jews were totally out numbered. There is no such thing as a palestinian Arab. Yasser Arafat was a Egyptian for petes sake. So tell me, what is it that we are sacraficing? The truth?

The Jews gave all of you your God. Can't see why so many people hate them. There must a be subliminal message in there somewhere.

"A total of eight not seven."

Well,that changes everything.

Yasser Arafat was a crook who died a multi millionaire.He did not do one single thing to help the Arab cause. He rejected almost every olive branch that was extended while continuing to line his pockets How can the Hamas leaders and people like President: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad continually call for the eradication of the Jewish people without being hauled up on charges of promoting genocide?
The jews will never give up Israel. To do so would seal their fate.

Speaking of truth. Did you know that Arabs are allowed to become citizens of Israel and continue to live with the Jewish people. Did you know that Israel actually pays the people of occupied territory a month sum of money. The land that they rightfully took over during a war in which they were attacked. Did you know the arabs willfully will not become citizens of Israel because they will be considered traitors to Islam, so they don't even though they are invited to do so. Again, why do you and most democrats disregard truth and justice? In the name of what do you disregard the Jewish people in favor of the Muslims? You think Muslims will like the United States and Europe after we turn our backs on the Jews? I don't think so. The Russian's don't like the jews and they still have a horrible Muslim problem. Train bombing in Russia mean anything?

Only people I see disliking Jews, John are non christians and obviously American Jews since they vote with people who hate them.

And I was not making a big deal about the difference of one. But if I was wanting to be effective in bashing a group, I would at least make sure my information was accurate. But I still don't get singing the praises of a group that "my religion" feels is not going to heaven.

Delta, I believe that it is Conservatives that most regularly practice religious intolerance.

Funny Jeremy. You scold on getting details right, but, then proceed to scold others on a subject that you already have the facts wrong about. Interesting.

The christian religion tells you to love everyone and especially be kind to God's chosen people. What is so hard about that.

I just love the conservatives that practice religious intolerance card. if you call not letting other people make you believe that your belief system needs to include what you don't believe in as intolerance, then they are intolerant. I see nothing wrong with that. Just because you don't want to water down your beliefs does not mean you still can't love people and pray for them. I have a feeling you live in a very black and white world where you need a big government to keep you in step.

On the other side of the coin, I mostly see liberals going around trying bash anything christian they can. Heck, you see that on this forum all the time. Tell me who has tolerance issues? Matter of fact, you are trying it right now by making all sorts of wild claims that you are just repeating things you heard.

Kind of like the financial realities of healtcare, you seem to have side stepped the facts that lay behind the Israeli and Arab issues regarding Israel and want to argue subjective matters.

"The christian religion tells you to love everyone and especially be kind to God's chosen people. What is so hard about that."

Nothing hard about that at all. I just think that it is hypocritical to claim to love Jews and hate another religion (Islam).

Conservatives are religiously intolerant. Research what they are doing in Texas concerning textbooks. They don't want kids to learn about Thomas Jefferson, one of our founding fathers, and the principal authors of the Declaration of Independence, but because he supported separation of church and state, he is not worthy to be recognized.

The Texas schoolbook situation is a tragedy, but it is not solely a Christian problem - it is a problem of ignorance. There are countless Christians in this country who recognize the importance of separation of C & S and also recognize the dangers of whitewashing history (not to mention the dumbing down of our children and the disadvantage these particular idiotic conservatives are putting us at internationally).

I don't know much of the texas school book issue. If what you are saying is true then it would be stupid in your context and premise.

You really want to stand by the argument that christians are religiously intolerant mem? You and others like to mistake firm in your belief system as intolerance. I know it is a fine line, but, that is an argument of who gets the accusation on the table first sound more correct to the ignorant bystander. Most people don't want to use their head to discern the argument. If I believe something to be true or even better, know it to be true, is it intolerant to not accept the other point of view with the premise that the other point of view is telling you that you have to change your belief/ knowledge system? I call that being smart. Many activists intentionally go after christians and tell them they have to include this or that and say they have to change their belief systems to fit in. Then when they don't, they (YOU) say they are intolerant. I say they are intolerant if you tried to change them and then they shot you through your skull with a .44. Or they beat you up or did not even try to engage in some sort of discourse on the subject.

Christians are extremely tolerant. They will engage you in their belief system. They will invite you in to see for yourself. They show good will to their neighbors of all faiths. They will pray for their neighbors and friends and are even to pray especially for their enemies. You call that intolerant? I call that loving. Now, there are people in the faith that don't get that but that is through their own constructs not through Jesus.

Try that in a muslim country? See where the guy was scheduled to have his head lopped off yesterday in Saudi Arabia because he did a TV show in a different country about speaking to the dead (contact your dead grandmother deals). He was their on his pilgrimage and they arrested him and sentence him to die because of the show from a different country.

People have been allowed to prosper historically in christian nations unlike many roman catholic and muslim nations through history. Just because I say that does not mean I hate any people of these faiths. I am only looking at the facts I see. When I tell people about muslims and even roman catholic belief systems, I am talking from what they believe vs what christians believe point of view (since the usual motive is to bash christians here by placing them in with the other religions deeds).

I knew it was only a matter of time before you brought up Catholicism. I am an active Catholic, and we view ourselves as Christians (followers of Christ), but we are publicly condemned by most Protestants. Do you know how much scrutiny I have faced from "(I guess your idea of) Real Christians" living here in TN? I guess you guys became all-knowing from a less than 200 year old religion, even though Christ was around about 1800 years before that.

This topic is over for me. I refuse to get into a pizzing contest about religion.

All I will say is the evidence of religious intolerance is apparent in the form of the rampant anti-Muslim sentiment evident throughout most of the US.

We are intolerant of muslim actions in the world. There are many thousands of muslims living among the christians but you will not find too many christians living among muslims. I don't think you understand intolerance. If christians were intolerant like you claim, everyone would not be trying to get into the US by every means available.

Sorry to hear you are a practicing catholic. I will pray for you. Who's religion has only been around for 200 years? Uh, christians started with christ bud. Roman catholicism started around 400 years after christ and made pretty good headway with killing christians because they would not accept the roman catholics paganism (merger of christianized themes into pagan god worship). The catholic church pretty much irradicated them from europe and made them flee into north africa. Ever hear of the romans feeding christians to the lions? The romans were the roman catholic church. You may want to read up about your religion before you start calling other intolerant. You may want to look into what your religion believes before you start talking about how you follow christ. Not much in their that I can see that is christ like. I know there are hippocrits abound, but, maybe you should look as to why protestants mock the catholic church.

Please, save your prayer for someone that truly needs it. This is why you and the rest of the "real Christians" feel persecuted by everyone that doesn't believe the same as you. It's the same condescending message that we constantly get from you guys. I mean, come on, what makes you feel that God has given you something that billions of other people don't have? You guys act like the rest of us that don't believe along the same lines, just don't get it. Which is totally the opposite of Christ's teachings. You want to attack Catholicism on practices of the past (have you ever been to a Catholic mass, or did you get all of your info from hearsay?), what about the fact that less than 50 years ago, blacks did not have the same as whites? What about the fact that we slaughtered Native Americans to take their land? Does that make you want to denounce your American citizenship? The US military made US troops sit in the area of an atomic bomb detonation to test the effects of radiation on humans, are you against the US military?

I mean, you are against illegal immigration, what if the illegal is here to escape religious intolerance (which is exactly what pilgrims did approx. 500 years ago) and wants to be saved. What if it is 10 million illegals? Conservatives are waiting with open arms, right? Are you going to welcome that illegal openly into your church?

matthew 7:6 Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. This verese reminds my of Wes. Honestly 99% of the people on here can mock me all they want, I will still never turn my back on the one who died for me. God uses Israel to show the world his existance. Anyone who thinks it's possible for them to exist this long without any super natural influence is just crazy. The original post makes it clear, Israel has had more done more for the advancement of man kind then any other nation, especially when you calculate the percentage of the population of their people. They continure to defy the odds.

To anser your question Jeremy, no if they reject Jesus then they will not inherit heven. They have to get there the same way as everyone else, through the blood of Jesus Christ. The Bible makes it clear, no man comes to the father but through the man Christ Jesus. It's Easter Sunday tomorrow, 2000 years ago this Jesus hung on a cross for you and I, took your sins past, present and future, paid the price for everyone of us, As the thorns pressed into his skull, as the nails pierced his hands and feet, as the soldier thrust his spear into this side, as they whipped his back 40 times with metal shavings ripping his flesh to the point he was unrecognizable. he thought of you and me. As they sat and gambled for his clothes he prayed for them, as they mocked and sneared he loved them. Thats who I serve, and I do it unwavering, I do it because of his love for me. I believe his word to be faithful and true, I preach it not to push an agenda or my own ideology, but because so many people are on the road to hell and they don't even know it. The Gospel literally means good news, that is why it is preached, it brings healing to the hurting, victory to the lost, and hope to the hopeless. Mock it, reject it if you want to, that is your God given right, but remember this, when you take your last breath, and its time to meet your maker, the only question he will ask is this....What did you do with my son? The answer to this question will be the difference of where you spend eternity. God bless and happy Easter my wakeworld friends.

Jeremy. I am not sure where to being with you. I am glad you asked though.

Let's start with illegals. I am against illegals as a matter of law of the land and most importantly against it due to sound economic policy. Then you can go to the untold part that very few think about and that is public health. They have not had the immunizations and screenings like legals do. They are potentially exposing our children go who knows what. They are breaking the law of the land which if you truly are a practicing catholic you would know that Jesus told us to follow the laws of the land and our country can not continue with an economic drain. I don't think you have looking into the huge mexican gang problems with illegals coming in just for the gangs. Not everyone who comes here does it to work, they do it get in the gangs. Many are also just coming here to work to take advantage of the higher pay and then shipping all the money back to mexico so they don't actually have to work all year or they can get way ahead in their country. It is not always about starving and looking for work. I guess you have not heard of the mexican groups advocating re-conquest of the southwest and many of these protestors for illegals carry signs that even speak to it. It is not simple as poor hungry people wanting to look for work. My objection is not the humanistic side but common sense social economic policy. There are a couple rules of thumb. One is in life saving, don't become another victim. The other is you have to secure your own house before you can help others.

On you asking a question about what did God give me that he did not give billions of people tells me right their that you don't even know anything about your own religion. If you actually followed Jesus, you would know that answer. The answer is, he gave the gift to all the people and they will all have the opportunity to hear the word. It is that simple. It is a gift. He will not hunt you down. He will not strike you down for rejecting. He does not say pull out a sword and kill the non believer. It is a gift. It is your choice.


On the catholic business.

http://www.reachingcatholics.org/cath_islam.html

http://www.reachingcatholics.org/catholic_bashing.html

Please read and that website has more Q and A if you look at the articles section.

Delta, that website is crap. Why not go to a catholic mass instead of taking some "know-it-all's" word for it. I

I have been to a mass. I have in laws that are catholic and two of my best friends are catholic.

Do you not believe in Transubstantiation, the belief that the elements of the mass become the literal body and blood of Christ? Do you not believe in veneration of Mary as the mother of God?How about the veneration and bowing to images of saints? Have you every studied the Vatican I and II? How about the council of Trent?

Forgiveness of sins comes by confessing those sins to a priest. The priest then assigns acts of penance, which when completed will remove the consequences of those sins.

The Bible teaches us to confess our sins before God. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (I John 1:9). And, we must be willing to confess our faults to each other. "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much" (James 5:16). But nowhere does the Bible teach that confession must be made to a select group of individuals before forgiveness is granted. In reality, forgiveness of sins can only be granted by God; man cannot grant forgiveness of sins. The best that fellow Christians can do is to plead to God on a brother's behalf that his sins might be blotted out.

This brings up another point as well. In Christianity there is no separation of priests from laity as all Christians are priests. "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy" (I Peter 2:9-10).

Past saints, especially Mary, are venerated. Catholics believe they serve as mediators between the living and God

To focus the mind, Catholics make numerous images of those to whom they will be praying. All Catholics deny that these images are idols. They do not believe that the saint is physically there. Yet, it is really a matter of semantics. Idol worshipers also claim that their idols are merely representations and not the real thing. The fact is that many Catholics take their images and saints to a superstitious level. A statue of Mary or St. Joseph is supposed to keep your house in good order. Medallions of St. Christopher is supposed to prevent injuries. Other than terminology, how does the veneration of saints differ from idolatry?

The Bible clearly teaches that worship and prayers are only to be directed toward God. In Luke 9:32-35 the disciples wanted to offer worship to Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, but God told them that they were only to honor Jesus. "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8). Hence, Peter refused to have anyone bow before him. "As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I myself am also a man."" (Acts 10:25-26). Even angels refused worship. "And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!"" (Revelation 19:10; see also Revelation 22:8-9).

This link describes the bondage to the church that catholicism perpetuates. The bond starts from birth and even requires the church through death. Look at the rules that are continuously evolving with the catholic church. Seems like a control mechanism to me.

Let me ask. How do you get to heaven and how is that different than Islam? You even asked yourself what god gave us that he did not give to the other billions of people? You mean catholics in the context of the discussion right? What God gave everyone is the ability for salvation without man made constructs.

Supernatural Influences that Insure Israel’s Existence = approximately $119 billion since 1950.

I think God uses Israel to show Americans that lobbying works, really really well.

There you go again Stephan, clouding religious truth with facts.

but because he supported separation of church and state

lol....oh man, the whole separation of church and state. That never gets old. One of many unconstitutional things our supposedly Supreme Court continues to abide by to appease the non-religious.

Actually Skubz, it's the typical ignorance about separation of C&S that never gets old. separate of church and state was set up as much to protect the church as it was the state. The fervently religious realized (and still do) what happened to the church of England when it was institutionalized and compromised by the government.

Totally agree Wes. Ignorance that the government is making a law abriding someones freedom of religion, such as a prayer lead at a graduation at a public school, that is not a law of the land. It was written so that the Government would not make a law for or against, all I have seen it do is make laws against. All we have seen is this government has gone completely in the other direction from the Church of England. Neither was what was intended in my opinion.

I assume you mean prayer led at a public school graduation - and no that is not appropriate seeing as how it is a public school. How can you think that is appropriate?

It would also be inappropriate to prevent a group of students from holding their own prayer session.

"...such as a prayer lead at a graduation at a public school, that is not a law of the land."

Skubz, would it be okay with your "law of the land" that if they read a "Christian" prayer at the "public" school graduation, they also have to read a Muslim prayer, a Jewish prayer, a Buddhist prayer, a prayer to Satan, etc.?

DeltaHoosier, I don't believe any religion is perfect, religion is created my man's ideologies, man is not perfect, therefore NO religion can be perfect. Do I believe that Jews can get into my idea of heaven? Yes. Do I believe that some young African tribesman that has had no exposure (or the opportunity to any outside exposure) to Western ideas can get into my idea of heaven? Yes. Do I believe that someone that has never stepped foot into a church or read one page of any version of the Bible can get into heaven? Yes.

Addressing your thoughts that Catholics pray (or your words idolize saints). Taken from catholic.org.

"Do Catholics pray TO saints?

We pray with saints, not to them.
Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you when you were having a hard time? Why did you choose to ask that person?

You may have chosen someone you could trust, or someone who understood your problem, or someone who was close to God. Those are all reasons we ask saints to pray for us in times of trouble.

Since saints led holy lives and are close to God in heaven, we feel that their prayers are particularly effective. Often we ask particular saints to pray for us if we feel they have a particular interest in our problem. For example, many people ask Saint Monica to pray for them if they have trouble with unanswered prayers, because Monica prayed for twenty years for her son to be converted. Finally her prayers were answered in a way she never dreamed of -- her son, Augustine, became a canonized saint and a Doctor of the Church."

I believe that this contradicts most of what you posted and this is directly from the Catholic Church. Nor have I ever heard of bowing to saint. And considering there are over 10,000 saints that would be a lot of bowing.

"The fact is that many Catholics take their images and saints to a superstitious level. "

I would assume that most Christians (including yourself) can be found guilty of this. Isn't Santa Claus (St. Nicholas) everywhere during Christmas Time.

Concerning transubstantiation.

"The Gospel of John presents Jesus as saying: "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you … he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him" (6:53-56), and as then not toning down these sayings, even when many of his disciples thereupon abandoned him (6:66), shocked at the idea. Protestants compare that passage to John 6:63 where Jesus says "the flesh profits nothing". However, Catholics argue, if this was meant to refer to Jesus' flesh, His flesh dying on the cross would profit nothing, which is theologically unacceptable to both Catholics and Protestants."

How do you prove your belief is right and Catholics, Orthodoxes, and other Protestants are wrong?

Skubz, would it be okay with your "law of the land" that if they read a "Christian" prayer at the "public" school graduation, they also have to read a Muslim prayer, a Jewish prayer, a Buddhist prayer, a prayer to Satan, etc.?

If a private citzen gets up to speak, regardless of their location, they have a freedom to speak. If they choose to say Allah is King or Jesus is Lord, it is their right. If they choose to bow their head in prayer, it is their right!!!! Wow, how hard is that to understand????

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

How can you think that is appropriate?

Because the Constitution says I should. Now, that doesn't mean others don't have a right to object, since that is their right also, but when the Supreme Court steps in and claims separation of church and state, it's totally bogus! Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. It doesn't say, except if you are on public property or in a public school. Last time I checked Congress hasn't made a law indicating anyone not particpating in a school prayer shall be fined, that would be unconstitutional. If by social convention a public school chooses to hold a prayer, Congress cannot make a law stopping it. See how it works both ways?

Jeremy I don't know what any of this has to do with muslims and jews? but santa is a secular,commercial invention. In fact there arecountries that refer to satan as "old Nick" and the name santa itself,is an anagram of satan.Many christians that I know see santa as someone who is displacing Christ at christmas,as opposed to perpetuating the true meaning of it.No christians I know are sold on santa.I dispelled the myth of santa claus very early in the upbringing of my children. Just like many parents,no doubt, dispel the "myth" of Christ in the upbringing of theirs.

.I dispelled the myth of santa claus very early in the upbringing of my children.

Chris, am I reading this correctly in that you told your kids early on that there is no such thing as Santa?

"santa itself,is an anagram of satan."

Elvis is an anagram of Lives. Live is an anagram of evil. Because you can rearrange the letters of one thing and spell something else, that makes it the something else? What exactly is the myth? Santa Claus is based on St. Nicholas, who was not a myth.

Skubz, look at what you posted. "Establishment of religion". Here is the Supreme Court's 1962 ruling on prayer in school:

"The petitioners contend, among other things, that the state laws requiring or permitting use of the Regents' prayer must be struck down as a violation of the Establishment Clause because that prayer was composed by governmental officials as a part of a governmental program to further religious beliefs. For this reason, petitioners argue, the State's use of the Regents' prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State. We agree with that contention, since we think that the constitutional prohibition against laws respecting an establishment of religion must at least mean that, in this country, it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government."

Public schools fall under USDE, a federal agency.

Its amazing how Jesus's message of love and forgiveness gets twisted into to hate and intolerance. I'm sure god is looking down on his children so proud of the loving hearts they possess. NOT!

Chris, am I reading this correctly in that you told your kids early on that there is no such thing as Santa?

Yeah,I did. What's wrong with that? Christmas is meant to celebrate the birth of Christ. What has santa got to do with it? He isn't real. People that don't believe in creation teach their kids from the get go that Christ isn't real.Yet they let their kids believe santa is real. You don't see the irony?

i am not sure who I feel more sorry for, you kids because they lost out on all of the fun that goes along with Christmas or you for not getting to experience the fun that goes along with having kids who believe in Santa.

Did you do gifts?

The irony? I actually think that the irony exists that once kids get to a certain age they realize that Santa is a story... Can;t say the same about Jesus....

Manzo, plenty of kids do...

true that...

chris, did you also debunk the tooth fairy, easter bunny, uncle sam among others?

Wait, there's no Uncle Sam?

im a proud jew

so ha

Manzo IMO not having Santa doesn't suck the fun out of Christmas. Its just as fun knowing your parents have bought you presents rather than some mythical guy with a beard.

Originally Posted by ralph

Manzo IMO not having Santa doesn't suck the fun out of Christmas. Its just as fun knowing your parents have bought you presents rather than some mythical guy with a beard.

I respectfully disagree..... kids going to see Santa, writing letters to Santa, Getting so excited about him coming that night, leaving cookies out for him and getting so crazed when they see they are gone in the AM. among all of the other stuff that goes along with the kids believing in Santa.

My daughter already has a letter written to Santa for xmas 2010. She was so excited about it that she just couldn't wait. No way she is excited to write me a letter about stuff she would like to have.

I guess that I just look at it a little differently. If I knew that I took that one single moment of excitement (her writing the letter this year already not to mention all of the other amazing times in her young life) away from her because of my own selfish reasons, well I just would not be happy about it. I am raising my kids to make up their own mind, and to do it when they are ready. I won't allow them to be brainwashed in any direction and will always present them with the alternative option in a discussion to help them make up their own mind about a particular topic as opposed to just following what they are told. I will let them figure out Santa when they are ready, on their own. till then, I will throughly enjoy them believing and the pure joy and excitement that believing in santa brings to the young ones...

No doubt Santa is a fun concept for the littlies. I don't think our boy has ever believed in Santa (12 now) its not a concept we have pushed for whatever reason, he gets presents from the cats tho!

Manzo, if you were a founding father the Texas school board would strip you from the schoolbooks haha. You just make too much sense.

because of my own selfish reasons

I won't allow them to be brainwashed in any direction

lol...and believing in Santa isn't a brainwash?

Jeremy that situation again, should not apply to an individual citizens right to lead a prayer at a graduation, whether it's publicly funded or not.

Establishment Clause because that prayer was composed by governmental officials as a part of a governmental program to further religious beliefs

And I totally disagree with this assessment, and have that right by the way, much to the dismay of those who would like to take that right away from me. Prayer was a part of societal customs that were in place at the time. It wasn't part of some governmental program to push religious beliefs. Congress did not setup a law establishing that program.

Skubz, that is the Supreme Court's interpretation, not mine. I think you are getting all bent out of shape because of the wording.

Needless to say, this is how the High Court rules on this matter. And grant you, there have been numerous lawsuits on this matter, and this ruling has yet to be overturned.

P.S. Who is trying to take that "right away from you".

"Jeremy that situation again, should not apply to an individual citizens right to lead a prayer at a graduation, whether it's publicly funded or not."

You just don't get it. You are letting your morals prevent you from seeing that everyone, including the taxpayers that pay for that graduation, don't believe the same things that you do.

"chris, did you also debunk the tooth fairy, easter bunny, uncle sam among others?"

They didn't grow up in the US so Uncle Sam was not in question. Do you honestly believe that not believing in Santa and the Easter bunny sucks the life out of Christmas band Easter? Why? They still got presents. We just taught them what we believe is the true meaning. Not some fat guy roaring around on a sled,squeezing himself down a chimney and leaving them gifts. What possible explanation for the gifts???As preposterous to us as the story of the resurrection is to others. And for the record easter is probably the most significant event in the christian calendar. What has a bunny got to do with it?
However, I have nothing against people who choose to raise their children believing in these fictional characters. Unlike peoples sneering, intolerant attitude to those that believe in Christ.

Do you honestly believe that not believing in Santa and the Easter bunny sucks the life out of Christmas band Easter? Why? They still got presents.

For Christmas, yes i believe that it sucks a good deal of the life out of it... For Easter, I believe that it sucks all of the life out of it, since the choco bunnies et all are the extent of Easter fun.

And for the record easter is probably the most significant event in the christian calendar. What has a bunny got to do with it?

I am not saying that a bunny has anything to do with it, only that the Bunny is what makes easter interesting, esp in the eyes of kids...

You just don't get it. You are letting your morals prevent you from seeing that everyone, including the taxpayers that pay for that graduation, don't believe the same things that you do.

lol...yeah man, that's what I'm doing. Where have I mentioned anything about my religious beliefs? So the new standard, according to your own words, in order for something to be spoken at an event paid by taxpayers, everyone must agree on it, is that correct?

Chris, such a message full of hate. Telling the truth about santa? Shame shame. (sarcasm)

Jeremy,

You just proved what I posted about the catholic religion. How can you debunk what I posted about the catholic church when it is in their history and the belief system. It is what it is. Do you believe that the pope is infalable? The church (man) determined that the pope is infalable in one of the major councils.

On your post you posted that you do indeed pray to saints. Masking it as having them praying for you still praying to them. Sainthood is a human construct. Basically you have established deity status to humans. Their works do not give them special status. I know people who pray everyday and they are not a deity. You mean to tell me that if someone is considered better than others during their life, they can have members from a certain church vote them to the ability of omnipresence and be able to hear millions of people at once? Interesting.

On transubstantiation. You do realize it is not the same as the lords supper? Transubstantiation is where a MAN prays over wine and bread and actually believes that Jesus himself enters the wine and bread and literally becomes the body and blood of Christ.

Look, I can post item after item. You sound like you are more of a social catholic vs an actual practicing catholic. The information is out there if you really want to understand the history of the church and where many of the beliefs came from and where the first pope came from and how the church replaced pagan gods with christianized themes (such as saints in place of the gods of the local populations).

At the end of the day, you are correct that most religions are man made. It is trait that is as long as man has been man. When moses came off the mountain the people with him were already making idols. There is a need to worship in the human. You ask what is different is that I have a relationship with God through Jesus. That is what he wanted. It is as simple as that. That is what is different. That is why Jesus turned over the money changers table in the temple. People can not get that simple concept. When you pray to saints, worship mary, celebrate santa or the easter bunny it only clouds Jesus message. The clouding is what is dangerous for man kind. It is what sets people into bondage. You know, looking for government to solve their problems or having central church figures telling you what you need to do.

On the christmas deal. Growing up we never celebrated christmas and we did not do easter bunny stuff either. You know the catholic church started christmas don't you? They put a christianized theme again into a pagan ritual. Instead of a celebration of the pagan sun god, the catholic church add saint nick into the equation and the rest is history. Not saying it is bad to celebrate the birth of christ but that is the way it came about.

Delta, you underestimate most of mankind's ability to decipher between holiday messages (the Easter Bunny, Santa, etc.) and "God's" message. I can watch a violent movie or listen to a rap song, but yet it doesn't make me want to mimic the things I just saw or heard. I don't see the bondage. The Catholic church does not force anyone to pray to any saint. How exactly did my post imply that catholics pray to saints? The post clearly states that catholics pray WITH saints during certain times of needs, but ultimately our prayers are directed towards God. I mean I am sure you do not think that it is wrong to pray with your pastor or members of your church or remembering the strength and courage that deceased family members or friends possessed.

Transubstantiation: I have posted my belief on that. Nothing makes you an authority on communion, nor me. These are theological differences. Again, I don't condemn you (or your religion) for not believing the same and again, nothing makes you the ultimate authority.

Being voted into sainthood is not as easy (it is a very difficult process) as your post would make one believe. And yes, I would say that Mother Teresa (who over 10 years after her death, has yet to be elected a Saint) exhibited exponentially more "Christ-like" behavior and compassion than most.

I'll end this post with your incorrect and biased assumption that Catholics "worship" Mary. Catholics do not worship Mary, we honor her. Because there is a prayer, which is based on these verses, Luke 1:28-35, 42-48, does not mean that Catholics believe that "worshipping" Mary will gain them entrance to heaven. I don't see what the big deal is for paying homage to Mary.

All of your "info" is from Protestant sources. I'm sorry that I would rather believe what the catholic church actually says and believes, than some group that posts what THEY believe the catholic church says. I have very few Catholic friends and the majority of my side of the family is Catholic so I would have to disagree with your analysis that I am a "social" catholic, as I do attend mass (almost) every Sunday.

I understand that man can tell the difference between different messages. I just believe you don't lie to kids when it comes God vs easter bunny. My kids did the egg thing and they still get gifts for Christmas. When they started to ask questions I told them the truth. I told them where Chirstmas came from and that Saint Nick was considered a good man and how he tied into it. I shared the story of Jesus birth and what it means for mankind. That is the most inspirational story of all. It has not hurt their fun one bit.

I understand that you are praying with a saint is also praying to a saint. In order to pray with you first have to communicate to get them to pray with you right? Well, regardless of the with or to case, man has held up another human as a deity. You see, you kind of can not communicate with someone who is dead (unless you go to a TV show). For all those millions to just ask a saint to pray with them means they have been granted some sort of God like status from God himself. Since God seemed to be pretty clear about placing gods before him, I think that is not happening. Then throw in the whole there is not way to the father but through me thing about Jesus (the guy your religion is based on). I agree that sometimes you have people pray with you and for you. The difference is they are not considered a deity with powers of omnipresence.

If you want I can get you catholic source on transubstantiation. I was just asking your thoughts on it. Seems a little odd that's all.

On being voted to sainthood. I was being a little sarcastic. It is not about the ease of being a saint. It is the fact that a man made body can promote another man to a deity status. Sounds sacreligous to me.

Yes, you do honor mary. It is the same reason in regarding saints. I will post this passage again since it is in your bible too.

The Bible clearly teaches that worship and prayers are only to be directed toward God. In Luke 9:32-35 the disciples wanted to offer worship to Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, but God told them that they were only to honor Jesus. "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8). Hence, Peter refused to have anyone bow before him. "As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I myself am also a man."" (Acts 10:25-26). Even angels refused worship. "And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!"" (Revelation 19:10; see also Revelation 22:8-9).

Interesting that you would do as the church says. What about what Jesus actually asked to be done? Isn't he the basis for the religion? Remember the church is just men unless you buy into the whole pope is infallible bit when it comes to the word of god. You know they defined him as infallible during Vatican I. Seams a little wrong too me considering the popes change their minds on principles of the church over time but Jesus simple rule for getting into heaven never changed.

I don't hate you for your beliefs. Just because you go to mass does not mean you really know your religion. I get that based on some of your original questions based on what is different about our religions in regards to what God gave us vs you. The answer is in Jesus words, not mans words.

Have a good one. This debate can go forever. Like I said there are many sources.

Look at you 2...arguing over a book written hundreds of years ago by man in attempt to explain the unexplainable. I'm so glad George Lucas wasn't around 2,000 years ago...you guys would be arguing over who is the superior Clingion.

You really want to go this path Ben? This coming from a person who thinks that health insurance is actually health care.

Originally Posted by deltahoosier

You really want to go this path Ben? This coming from a person who thinks that health insurance is actually health care.

I think you may have me confused with someone else on the HC thing. And no, I guess I don't want to go that path with you. No amount of fact or common sense will change your opinion. In some ways I'm envious of you. It's comforting thinking you will go to a mystical place called heaven after you die, this is why man created religion, unfortunately it doesn't work on everyone.



I knew you were going to get me on the spelling....I don't have time to spell check your post.

I will pull my best Wes since I rarely get the chance. It is Klingon not clingion. If you are going to try and insult someone, at least do it right.

Besides we all know that Michael Ansara (Kang) was a much better Klingon than Michael Dorn (WORF), JG Hertzler (Martok), and Christopher Plummber (Chang the Shakesspear spewing Klingon).

It's Roddenberry not Lucas.

But yeah, I love it when people diss the Catholics who invented their neo Judaism religion. Can't let a myth go stale.