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Old    dahui            08-29-2005, 6:33 PM Reply   
I was out with my brother and a few friends this morning. My brother came up short on a large raley and caught his front edge. I sped back around because I thought he might be unconscious. He was conscious but had the wind knocked out of him. He got back in the boat saying his head hurt. We were hanging out while the next rider was getting set up. I asked him what day it was as a joke. He said he had no idea. I thought he was kidding and asked him what year it was and he looked at me funny and said I dont know. He didnt know where he was and how he got there. We were laughing at first because it was very weird. We asked him all kinds of basic questions to which 99% of the answers were I dont know. He at least knew who I was but couldnt tell me his birthday SSN and didnt even know who his girlfriend was. On the way home he started vomiting. I ended up taking him to the hospital. He kept trying to go to sleep so I kept him awake. He got a CT scan and all is good. After about 10 hours he still cant tell you what he has done for the past two weeks and has no idea where he works. I heard it will come back in a day or two. It was my first experience with a concussion. The one lesson I think I learned is to ALWAYS WEAR A VEST. After he smacked his head and had the wind knocked out of him, The CGA vest gave him the support to get his head out of water while he caught his breath. I cant imagine if he did not have a vest. I am sure concussions are pretty regular in this sport but it still opened my eyes to how hard of a fall you can take. Go Big, Have fun and be careful out there.
Old     (just_board)      Join Date: Jul 2005       08-29-2005, 6:46 PM Reply   
That's crazy, great story.

I hope he has a speedy and full recovery.
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       08-29-2005, 7:02 PM Reply   
Sounds similar to my story. Concussions are a lonely feeling. One I hope never to repeat. I actually put my board back on and went to ride again. As soon as I pulled up, I looked in the boat and realized I didn't know the other people on board. Then it dawned on me that something big had just happened and I couldn't remember what is was.

My wife quizzed me on the boat and we headed for the hospital minutes later.
Old     (twakess)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-29-2005, 7:06 PM Reply   
Been there before and also knocked out a few times. This is why I also wear a vest and everyone who rides behind my boat has to. I rember when a few of my friends didn't ware them back in the old days.
Old     (ashleyo)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-29-2005, 7:06 PM Reply   
whoa! sorry about that man. hope your brother can get his memory back soon so he can remember how to ride
Old    dahui            08-29-2005, 7:23 PM Reply   
I just talked to him about five minutes ago. He said he now remembers everything except the events from this morning to this afternoon. The hospital made me feel bad because myself along with my friend rode after he crashed and didnt rush to the hospital.

J-rod I was trying to tell him to strap on the board and keep riding because he had only been going for about 5 minutes and it was butter. He would have been so confused. He said no thanks and I helped him back in the boat.
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       08-29-2005, 7:35 PM Reply   
It took about a month, but eventually I was able to recall about 95% of that day.
Old    r_dub            08-30-2005, 7:51 AM Reply   
When I was 14, racing BMX on the national circuit, I crashed the day AFTER the Grand National (final national race of the season)and got knocked out.
This was the first season that I did well enough to get ranked, so it was a big deal for me.
And supposedly I beat some top rider at the time, which was a major upset. Anyway, I forgot the entire weekend.
So every time I wanted to "relive" it, I had to ask my friends to tell me the story about my first national ranking, lol.
What a bummer!


(Message edited by r_dub on August 30, 2005)
Old     (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Minnesnowda       08-30-2005, 8:55 AM Reply   
that happens week to someone in my posse'
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       08-30-2005, 11:07 AM Reply   
I've been smoked like that twice. Forgetting where I was and how I got there. Even forgetting what I had just said. Not fun. My GF really freaked out the last time it happened.

Old     (ashleyo)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-30-2005, 1:25 PM Reply   
yea I have never had that happen to me. that really sucks Ryan W. thats a once in a life time thing and the memories would be sweet. and Da Hui thats good that your brother can remember some stuff. i don't know a lot about concussions. but can you lose your memory completely? if you could that would be a total MESS.
Old     (roberto)      Join Date: Aug 2004       08-30-2005, 1:40 PM Reply   
I see more riders strapping on the helmet. Who's riding with a bucket and how much cranial impact protection against the water does it provide? I blew out my eardrum and now ride with Aquanot ear plugs, but not sure about the benefits of the helmet vs H2O.
Old     (nauty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       08-30-2005, 1:56 PM Reply   
I got a concussion a little over a week ago. I got a little turned around in the air. I landed backwards, caught an edge, and got slammed backwards into the water. My headaches continued for 4 days after before I decided to get checked out. I went to the doctor, got an MRI, and everything looked good. My headaches finally went away after 8 days.

I thought about the helmet thing, but I wonder if it would have made a difference with my fall? I think it was as much the whiplash effect (if not more) than the actual impact of hitting my head on the water that caused my concussion. Therefore, would a helmet really give you any benefit from an injury caused by whiplash?
Old     (lzyboy)      Join Date: Jun 2001       08-30-2005, 2:49 PM Reply   
My Story from a way back :
Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 2:02 pm:

Concussion FYI:

I am not sure if ALL of you understand the impact a concusion has on your brain both in the short and long term.

My Story
couple months ago, I was throwing a raley in 2 feet of chop ( dumb idea i know ) and came up short. I was knocked out cold for 30 + seconds, and my boys had to "baywatch" / Jump in and save me. Luckily I was face up and wearing USCGA vest. I had no idea where I was, who I was with. I was comnpletley out of it. To this day 12 weeks later I cannot remeber any events of that session and virtually the entire trip. I went to the hosspitial the following day and received a catscan that showed swelling in the right side of my brain, but nothing too abnormal.

For several weeks after the accidnet I had balance problems and now have somewhat of a lazy eye on my right eye which has affcted my vision. I was diagnosed wiht a very severe grade 2 / mild grade 3 concussion and told to take a minimum of 6-8 weeks off the water / any sports. I meet with a neurologist every 6 weeks for testing hopefully to avoid any permanent damage. Side effects currently include memorly loss, dizziness, headaches and can last in my case in upwards of 3 months.


Information given to me by the Nuerologist

Every time you get a concussion, your chances of permanent or more severe problems increase 3 fold.

Repeated concussions have the potential to leave athletes with permanent brain damage. It is hard to say exactly how, or what aspect of mental function may stay permanently damaged because every injury and player is different. Brain cell death as a result of repeated concussions and internal bleeding can leave a person unable to control certain muscles, or motions, with dysfunctional memory, or unable to process information. scientific evidence now shows that the effects of repeated concussions accumulate and actually affect your intelligence, emotions, and thinking ability for years to come. A history of repeated concussions have even been associated with Alzheimer's disease. Even mild concussions suffered repeatedly, though separated by months or years, can cause problems.


-= peace =-
Aaron}

Old     (ashleyo)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-30-2005, 3:15 PM Reply   
whoa...yea i didn't relize they were that serious. thanks for the info!
Old     (shavis)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-30-2005, 4:48 PM Reply   
lesson of the day buy a helmet....best investment you can make...
Old     (utter_twat)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-31-2005, 6:54 AM Reply   
well f*ck me with a fishfork, thats crazzzzy...

I got a concussion a while back this season learning 360s. Luckily it was only mild, and I wasn't in too much pain or anything, but it is damn freaky. I thought I was alright until I got back to the changing room and had a shower. There I was getting dressed, and I suddenly freaked out and went dizzy, didn't know where I was or what happened, it was F*CKING SCARY - thats the worst part.

But that brain damage thing is scary, wouldn't want that happening
Old    wakemark            08-31-2005, 8:08 AM Reply   
Crazy story! Had a few myself but not as bad as you describe.

Kellan:
Helmets reducing the chance of a concussion on the water is a MYTH! A concussion is caused by your skull slowing down at a faster rate than your brain, thus slamming your brain into the inside of your skull and making a bruise. A helmet INCREASES the surface area of your melon thereby causing the rate of DECELERATION to INCREASE (read: your head stops faster when it hits the water).

Helmets are extremely effective in guarding against injury when riding obstacles (sliders/kickers, etc.) Many also have earflaps to guard against blown out eardrums. Do not fool yourself in to thinking that a helmet will protect you in a head to water collision.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-31-2005, 8:30 AM Reply   
mjohnson, That's what the padding in the helmet is for... to ease the impact. As to whether the increased surface area of the helmet is enough to offset the cushion of the padding, that's a subject for measuring equipment and controlled testing to decide. My guess is that the padding will win out over a bare head.
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       08-31-2005, 9:23 AM Reply   
Originally I started wearing a helmet because I lost some hearing out of my left ear from blowing the ear drum too many times. Now I wear one for multiple reasons.

I received a concussion, big lazy shifty 360 to landing on my heelside edge, while wearing a friends helmet. Never again will I wear a Pro-Tec. I do however wear a Gath, that I will swear up and down has definetely reduced impacts when landing backwards. I have also gotten a concussion when over rotating a 5, landing face first while wearing my Gath.

"repeated concussions have even been associated with Alzheimer's disease" My Aunt was beat to heck in NY by a mugger and ten years ago lost her mind yet her body is still strong. The head wounds may very well be the cause of her Alzheimer's.
Old    wakemark            08-31-2005, 9:53 AM Reply   
Mr. Anderson,
Good point but 1/4 inch of soft foam hardly negates a 33% increase in the size of your dome. Also, water, while definitely being pretty firm on an "out-the front" type ejection, is softer than the styrofoam/plastic shell that your cranium ultimately rests against once it bottoms out the foam. I am telling you, leave the water helmets for the kayakers and the slider parks, and those with ear drum issues.

Peter,

I will say that the gath, with its lack of vents and such, seems to make way more sense than the pro-tec, even with the visor on the face opening. I rode with a helmet at OWC and while on the sliders it felt great, I felt more prone to injury crashing off of the kickers. I could swear the neck strap was going to kill me!
Old     (rootc)      Join Date: Aug 2002       08-31-2005, 11:25 AM Reply   
Johnson - Yeah a helmet will increase the surface area of your head, but the materials of the helmets shell are designed to reduce water drag. The engineered shape of a helmet will allow for the helmet to displace water more effectively then a helmet-less head. Most helmets have more then 1/4 inch of padding not to mention they are made of foam which also acts as a pad to some degree. Helmet increasing head size is a small part of a bigger picture.

I personally don't wear a helmet. However, I would never tell someone that they shouldn't wear a helmet for safety reasons.
Old    wakemark            08-31-2005, 12:02 PM Reply   
Actually surface area is a BIG deal. When you deal with hydrodynamics, surface area increases drag. This relationship is exponential. I took some pretty hefty physics classes in my day and drawing on my knowledge of the situations at hand, surface area (drag) would be the most influential variable in the equation leading to a bruised brain. The faster your head stops moving, the more prone you are to concussion. As for the foam material that the shell of the helmet is made from, drop a small rock on the material and see if it dents/penetrates the material. Now drop that same rock in water. The rock will completely dent (penetrate) the water. Imagine this rock is your head. I will debate this point healthily, gladly, and heartily. Some of my hardest crashes on water occurred in my dark ages of slalom skiing (gulp). Going 60 mph or so across the wakes and ejecting out the front is quite a faceplant. If helmets reduced the chance of concussion, why would they not be required on the pro slalom tour where safety is paramount? Okay, so lets not start a debate on slalom skiing crashes vs. wakeboard crashes, unless you have gotten in to very short rope lengths at 34mph or higher. Anyways, I would love to hear other points of view, I just don't think that wearing a helmet is productive for concussion reduction while wakeboarding without obstacles!
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004 Location: Tyler       08-31-2005, 12:16 PM Reply   
sort of like an airplane landing in water. large solid objects create the most drag, so increasing the size of your head (wearing a helmet) increases the drag when you hit the water. airplane analogy: the plane doesn't skip or skid and land evenly. it begins to cartwheel across the water because the first part to touch the water creates so much drag.

Helmets probably increase any whiplash caused by a fall as well
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-31-2005, 12:25 PM Reply   
Does 32 off at 34 count?

http://john.panelmagic.com/ski32off.mpg
Old    wakemark            08-31-2005, 12:30 PM Reply   
John,

Absolutely! My point was that coming out the front at speeds/angles like that has worked my brain over harder than almost any wakeboard crash has. (disclaimer...MY Experience)

P.S. Nice run!

(Message edited by wakemark on August 31, 2005)
Old     (zuka666)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-31-2005, 12:54 PM Reply   
I suffered many concussions in my 10yrs of boarding. You know what they say though, no pain no gain... You just have to remember one thing, the raley may be one of the easiest tricks in the book, but if you cannot get that board back under your feet, especially bringing it to blind, your in a world of hurtin'. Whiplash, concussion, the whole nine yards...
Old     (nauty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       08-31-2005, 12:57 PM Reply   
So I wonder..... which is worse, having an increased surface area (helmet), but also having an inch of foam to absorb the impact. Or, having no helmet at all and having nothing to absorb the impact? I'm not saying that I am behind one theory or the other, I am just trying to figure out how relative these arguments are.

In the case of the concussion I suffered a week or so ago, would my injuruy have been worse had I had a helmet on? Would it have been less of an injury had I had some foam to absorb the impact and give my brain a mili-second to slow down before slamming against the back of my skull?

If two helmetless riders take the exact same fall under the exact same conditions (speed, water conditions, etc.), but one rider had a small head and the other had a large head, are you saying that the guy with the larger head would be more prone to a concussion than the one with a smaller head?

I think this is all relative to the variables involved. Increased surface area will increase drag exponentially, but to what degree? Is the minimal increase in surface area from your head to a helmet really going to offset the benefits that an inch of foam can have in absorbing the impact? And vice versa..... Will an inch of foam offset the increased surface area?

Personally, I really think the increased surface area that a helmet adds is minimal. We can argue and debate it all day, but we can never really know for sure until the benefits/detriments of each are measured in a labratory experiment.

A buddy of mine is an orthopedic surgeon. He rides with a helmet religiously. I'm sure that this is something that he may not necessarily be an expert on, but he may have some insight on the subject. I am riding with him this weekend. You can be sure that I will ask him for his opinion on the matter.

(Message edited by nauty on August 31, 2005)
Old    wakemark            08-31-2005, 1:26 PM Reply   
Richard,

Excellent questions. Keep this point in mind:

If the increase in surface area will slow your head down faster (I'm tellin' ya, it will), then what good does the impact absorption of the foam do? The foams positive properties, I strongly believe, do not have the same exponential relationship to the equation that the increase in surface area does.
Old     (shavis)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-31-2005, 1:38 PM Reply   
believe it or not from one extent to another...a helmet is going to provide some sort of protection....so lets agree on that...
Old    wakemark            08-31-2005, 2:03 PM Reply   
Kellan

I am not yet ready to agree that a helmet will protect against a concussion in a head meets water type impact.
Old     (shavis)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-31-2005, 2:13 PM Reply   
i didnt say concussion i just said some sort of protection
Old    260searay            08-31-2005, 2:47 PM Reply   
I wear a helmet everytime i ride and think i had a concussion this spring. I had a head ache for 4 days and right after felt dizzy. I did it again this last sunday on a toeside w2w the board hit sideways and toe edge dug and smack. felt like i went 10 feet under and my eyes hurt because it folded my eye lids back and again a wicked head ache. I wish there was a way to avoid those nasty face plants.
Old     (roberto)      Join Date: Aug 2004       08-31-2005, 3:38 PM Reply   
The helmet will help prevent skull fractures but is not a defense against concussions. Think of your skull as an egg shell and your brain as a 3lb. yolk (adjust brain size accordingly). When your head impacts the water your yolk/brain continues forward pushing up against the inside of your egg shell head. It's the force/speed at which your yolk impacts which equals concussion or no concussion. A helmet will keep you from cracking your egg shell on a slider, so strap up if you're flirting with ridgid obstacles. Otherwise you'd be better off spending money on ear protection like AquaNots (custom formed ear plugs) than a lid. So I guess I'm just agreeing with our "Physicists", Richard and Wakemark. Remember: This is your Brain...This is you Brain on WakeWorld.
Old     (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       08-31-2005, 6:26 PM Reply   
m johnson, you can debate all you want but it don't mean nuthin to me. I've been wearing the 05 Wake Ace by Pro-Tech and have now taken several "plants" that would normally give me a good bell ringing and a headache for a while after, and I have not suffered any of these symptoms while wearing the helmet. Speaking from only experience, it is working for me. I do believe that in certain falls it may make things worse. Life is about playing odds, and I believe odds are better with all the safety equipment in place. Debris is also an issue since we ride the delta often. So for now the helmet stays.
Old     (blueplastic)      Join Date: Jan 2004       08-31-2005, 11:51 PM Reply   
Here are some of my raley attempts. I haven't landed one yet. After reading this thread though, I'm not sure whether I'll be trying a raley ever again...I was lucky not to get hurt on any of the three attempts below.


Old     (rootc)      Join Date: Aug 2002       09-01-2005, 6:41 AM Reply   
Helmet = better materials and shape to displace water more effeciently. Helmet provides padding in the form of soft foam pads and a hard styrofoam shell. All this at the expense of increased surface area.

The concusion occurs at the point of impact. Two questions: What breaks surface tension most effectively. 2)Does the padding in the helmet offset any possible negative proprieties associated with the increased surface area.

Old     (zuka666)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-01-2005, 6:57 AM Reply   
Farooqui, at least your not star gazing, remember-have equal pressure on both feet when leaving the wake and maintain your cut all the way through the wake!
Old    wakebmxer            09-02-2005, 11:02 PM Reply   
I had a friemd who was suseptible to getting concussions and it happened more frequently with a helmet , because it make his head bigger creating more drag. He eventually stopped wakeboarding. I just suffered a concussion from a 15ft wall to my face at my indoor skatepark on my bmx bike. The helmet saved me cause I hit a solid object. If were strickly riding water with no sliders, I would never wear a hemlet. Concussions suck from what I remember. And the the black eyes and 3layers of stitches in my head suck too. And putting my teeth through my lip is uncomfortable too. But I would never wear a helmet strictly for wake.
Old     (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       09-03-2005, 8:43 PM Reply   
Tell that kid that split his head wide open from hitting a peice of debris on the WATER and almost died that you never need a helmet on the water! Someone post that pic again of the kids melon with all the staples from one end to the other.
Old     (winky)      Join Date: Jun 2004       09-04-2005, 6:27 AM Reply   
Here is my bit of anecdotal experience. I initially bought a Pro-Tec helmet w/o ear flaps, then after personally knowing 4 people who blew out ear drums, I started wearing ear plugs. The ear plugs sucked, so I bought a Gath, which makes me look like a total dork, and I was taunted unmercifully by my crew. Then after the biggest tease in my boat, on a whim demo'ed the old Pro-Tec and promptly had a big helmet/board Bell Ringer, a consensus developed that a helmet was a good idea. I sold the my old Pro-Tec to another friend (The second biggest tease), who not two weeks later, takes a lateral face slam and blows his drum (My personally know tally increments to 5). BTW one of my friends ruptured his ear drum so bad, he wears a hearing aid. (Actually looks as dorky as my Gath). As I circled the boat to pick up my friend, he had this blank look on his face, and was too dizzy to get in the boat. Water in the inner ear is very disorienting. I can still remember his words "Winky there is air coming out of my ear. That's not suppose to happen is it?". The old Pro-Tec then went in the garbage, and he bought a Pro-Tec with flaps. I wore the Pro-Tec a few times, because I don't really want to look like a dork, but the Gath is just too comfy, so I returned to wearing it. Two weeks ago I over rotated a 3 and had a massive side face slap, the kind perfect for rupturing an ear. Hit so hard that the audio vent on my Gath blew out. So bottom line, I keep a Gath and a Pro-Tec w/ flaps in the boat. Some wear em and some don't. As for the hydrodynamic deceleration/helmet shape argument, has anyone seen any actual scientific measurement of this phenomenon? i.e. a deceleration vs melon size/shape study?
Old    wakegal02            09-04-2005, 7:02 AM Reply   
someone mentioned something about skiers not being required to wear a helmet, but what about the jumpers, is that for the major crashes or b/c they may goof up on the ramp? I doubt the ramp unless they are beginners but I don't really follow skiing so I don't really know...But I noticed in wakeboarding comps. on the D-up they throw their helmets to the side and are no longer required to wear them, I'd really like to see some hard evidence on all the theories of wearing a helmet or not b/c I can see it from both directions, it could or does slow you down b/c of surface area, but then again if it's shaped a certain way it may slice through the water easier b/c it's more arrow dynamic...someone please figure this out instead of just guessing
Old     (whitie)      Join Date: Jul 2004       09-04-2005, 9:50 AM Reply   
I am no expert but helmets by design are for solid object impacts. This could be resolved by calling the manufacture and ask the what kind of test the put their product thru. Do they test rate of deceliration on water,or just a drop test to make sure they dont crack. Here is a thought top fuel drag cars at the point the shoots fill can exceed 8gs for a breef sec. If the shoots fill to quickly drivers have been know to suffer concusions or even been knocked out just a thought.note no impact. IF YOU FEEL SAFE WEARING ONE THEN WEAR ONE AND TELL EVERY ONE TO JUST GO AND HUCK THEM SELFS
Old    mile_high_rider            09-04-2005, 11:15 AM Reply   
I ride with a healmet, dont know how well it works, but I have not lost consciousness sence I started wearing it.
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       09-04-2005, 2:02 PM Reply   
Bill Wilson, "Hit so hard that the audio vent on my Gath blew out" Same thing happened to mine so after a couple of times, of loosing the ear covers, I glued them in place and they have not been lost since.
Old     (winky)      Join Date: Jun 2004       09-04-2005, 8:19 PM Reply   
Thanks for the tip Pete, sounds like a good Idea. I will give em a good dose of epoxy.
Old     (winky)      Join Date: Jun 2004       09-04-2005, 8:30 PM Reply   
Oh, and while on the subject of minimizing head damage, Last year I got the bright idea that I could minimize the gawd awful eye peeler by wearing prescription swimming goggles instead of my contacts. Bad Idea. Rather than just an eye whack, the goggles gave my corneas a good raking that took a few days to recover from...not worth trying.
Old     (nauty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       09-05-2005, 7:53 PM Reply   
As promised, this weekend I spoke with my buddy, who is a surgeon, about the pros and cons of wearing a helmet for general wakeboarding. He wears a helmet himself when he rides and had this to say.....

He said that even though a helmet may increase the surface area that is impacting the water, the helmet helps to dissapate the engery from the impact. Rather than the engergy generated from the impact being directed staright to your brain pan, the helmet absorbs a great deal of this engery and dissapates it. He actually found it quite humerous that this subject was even being debated.

After suffering a concussion two weeks ago, my doctor gave me the green light to return to the water this weekend. On saturday I was riding and caught another edge and got slammed backwards into the water. I was not wearing a helmet and took another pretty good ringer that ended my riding for that day. I had a pretty good headache the rest of the day.

Today, against my better judgement, I went out again. This time I was wearing a helmet. On my last set of the day I caught another edge. This was one of the nastiest face plants I have ever taken. I came flying out of my boots and got the wind knocked out of me. The impact was so strong that it tore the padding from inside my helmet. The padding ended up getting pushed up towards the crown of the helmet as a result of the impact.

After I caught my breath guess what? No headache what so ever! Now say what you will about helmets and surface area, but I am sold. I really don't care how goofy I look or how much crap my friends give me for wearing one, but I am wearing a helmet form here on out.

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