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Old    Ryan (bsebllhglyknit)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-09-2007, 4:58 PM Reply   
I have seen all the threads about the "me first attitude", "antipowerturing" ect. I know there is a forum on here about stopping power turning but powerturning is only a part of what ruins the water.

Here is my idea and I need your guys help.

First of all the goal: Educate everyone who has an object that floats ie: boats, pwc, ect. and those who partake in tubing, wakeboarding, skiing or whatever it is how to keep the lake fun for everyone.

Im sure simple fliers passed out would atleast educate those who dont know what they are doing. It has been said a thousand times that most of those so called idiots on the lake dont know any better.

Here is where I need your help. If you could just respond with a couple things that boaters need to educated on. Say what they shouldnt do and then say what they should do instead.

IE:

Please do not powerturn when retreiving a fallen rider. Slow down to idle and proceed to pick up your rider. (unless of an emergency)

Please do not dock you boat by the launch ramp so that is does not obstruct those trying to load and unload there boat onto a trailer. Instead idle around in the no wake zone while waiting for a trailer, person ect.

If you are new to backing a trailer up or unloading a boat dont be afraid to ask for help. There is almost always someone willing to help you.

If you have any questions visit www.wakeworld.com and view the discussion forums where you can ask questions ect.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-09-2007, 6:28 PM Reply   
I agree with you man. Ill put up some flyers by the ramp if someone can give me something to print out.
Old    Ryan (bsebllhglyknit)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-09-2007, 6:37 PM Reply   
Yeah I agree both Canyon and Saguaro could be so much nicer to ride on if we get the word out.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-09-2007, 6:39 PM Reply   
Yea def. Ryan do you go out to saguaro alot? what do you ride behind i might have see you out there?
Old    Jay (ironj32)      Join Date: Jan 2007       08-10-2007, 5:12 AM Reply   
i think i remember seeing a thread a while back that was on this subject, anyone remember??? if someone has something already made that would be awesome if you could post her up.
Old    wakegump (uppledup17)      Join Date: Sep 2005       08-10-2007, 6:45 AM Reply   
A little off topic but has anyone rode up to a boat to tell them what they are doing wrong. Last weekend I almost reached my breaking point. We live on a very busy waterway in IL. So in order to get any decent water you need to be out at 6 in the morning. Last week about 6 there were two boats on Pistakee just circling an island oh about 10 times. Not to mention other boats just running lines back and forth powerturning for no apparant reason. I got so pissed I just stopped riding. I really wanted to drive up to these guys and ask what the hell they were doing. A flyer would not work becuase most live right on the water. Has anyone actually approached a boat before. I understand the water is for everyone but making circles for no apparant reason at 6 in the morning, cmon.
Old    Jay (ironj32)      Join Date: Jan 2007       08-10-2007, 6:56 AM Reply   
do it...just be polite about it. explain to them what you are trying to accomplish, and ask them if they really need to be doing all that nonsense with their boat.
Old    eric (eas)      Join Date: Nov 2001       08-10-2007, 8:16 AM Reply   
I've got a buddy who will not hesitate to cruise up to a boat full of rednecks and proceed to "educate" them on how to minimize their negative effect on the water. This wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't 5'-6" and 150 lbs. soaking wet.

Just be careful about how you approach a boat full of beer-drinking ego maniacs who may or may not be ready to drown someone who dares to "educate" them!
Old    wakegump (uppledup17)      Join Date: Sep 2005       08-10-2007, 8:33 AM Reply   
IF the people I encounter are drinking beers on the boat at 6 in the morning, they have much larger problems than me pissing them off.
Old    eric (eas)      Join Date: Nov 2001       08-10-2007, 8:42 AM Reply   
well...I can definitely agree with that...but my warning was more of a general note.
Old    Clubjoe (clubjoe)      Join Date: Sep 2005       08-10-2007, 10:29 AM Reply   
Never mind my comment.......

(Message edited by clubjoe on August 10, 2007)
Old    swass            08-10-2007, 11:07 AM Reply   
"A little off topic but has anyone rode up to a boat to tell them what they are doing wrong."

"Last week about 6 there were two boats on Pistakee just circling an island oh about 10 times. Not to mention other boats just running lines back and forth powerturning for no apparant reason."

Your definition of "wrong" seems to be "anything I don't like or otherwise impacts my riding."

Why are you more important than them? You do not have a divine right to butter.

I have to say, I would not take kindly to someone pulling up to me on the lake to hand me a flyer on how to "keep the lake fun for everyone" or to tell me what I'm doing "wrong." I don't care how friendly you are about it, that just wouldn't go well - for either of us. Please move on to the next boat that you think needs "educating." Well, I really don't care what you do - just don't stop at mine.


(Message edited by swass on August 10, 2007)
Old    Clubjoe (clubjoe)      Join Date: Sep 2005       08-10-2007, 11:23 AM Reply   
Swass--Your post is much nicer than mine was.....
Old    DG (dgunthert)      Join Date: Mar 2007       08-10-2007, 11:46 AM Reply   
I have to agree with Swass. I'm not about to go pulling up to some random guy who's cruising around the lake and presume to tell them how to drive so they don't disrupt my butter. That's a bit on the arrogant side.

On the other hand, if it's someone driving an X-series doing power turns to go pick up their rider as happened on Tuesday night, then yes, I will provide constructive comments on how they might want to handle their boat.

There's a big differnce between the two. In the first case, you're telling someone that their way of enjoying the water doesn't fit with yours, so they'll need to change it. In the second, you're giving someone information that will certainly benefit you, but will also increase their own enjoyment.
Old    Train (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       08-10-2007, 11:55 AM Reply   
I have pulled up to people who were pulling riders in the wrong direction on my home lake. we have a counterclockwise rule in Cali. what they were doing, is something I do when the lake is empty. not when there are 25 boats cruising by every few minutes. It is not safe at all. I kindly informed them of the violation, and let them know they could be in for a very large ticket, if the ranger saw them. they muttered something under their breath, and left.

with that said, I will not pull up to someone who is pulling tubers in circles, or powerturning. it is not my lake. I will try to set an example when I am driving, and hope that others pick up on it as well.
Old    Ben C (dadthedriver)      Join Date: Jul 2004       08-10-2007, 1:56 PM Reply   
that whole approaching the boat thing doesn't usually work out very well. That is why I said what I did in this thread.
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/1/487318.html?1186770702
Old    Ben C (dadthedriver)      Join Date: Jul 2004       08-10-2007, 2:00 PM Reply   
Thomas. you said, "we have a counterclockwise rule in Cali"

That is not true for all.

Our lake here in Fresno which is a state run facility is not directional. We will usually run back and forth against one edge or the other all day and the sheriff will just wave.
Old    Train (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       08-10-2007, 2:07 PM Reply   
I stand corrected then Ben. every public lake I have been on in Cali has had this rule.
Old    Ryan (bsebllhglyknit)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-12-2007, 6:39 PM Reply   
Joey C. I ride behind a black centurion enzo.. Im going to say dont approach a boat to let them know what there doing wrong. Maybe if you see them in the parking lot later or something then let them know. Or just hand them a flier or something so you dont even need to talk to them. I dont want to here on someone getting shot because they kindly approached there boat to educate them on something.
Old    Ryan (bsebllhglyknit)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-12-2007, 6:41 PM Reply   
What other things should i put in this flier. I know there is thousands of things but i dont want this to be a thesis im handing out at local lakes. What should the main things be. We need to try to exclude you cant go on the lake at this time and so on.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-12-2007, 7:03 PM Reply   
Be friendly, most people are willing to help if you ask.

use common sense, if you dont have it, get some.

the counter clockwise rule. keep the shor over your right shoulder

GIVE PEOPLE ROOM, ESPECIALLY WHEN PULLING SOMEONE

Go to the dock to drop/pick up people, dont just sit waiting for people or for your trailer, float around in the no wake zone till its your turn.

DO NOT FLOAT RIGHT BEHIND THE RAMP WAITING FOR PEOPLE OR YOUR TRAILER!

If all else fails, THINK! and pay attention.

if you have questions then ask someone!

for all of us: keep a good attitude unless the guys continue to be stupid.

let me know when this is up and ill start postin them up. ill try and think of some more things
Old    Steve Jones (steve_jones)      Join Date: Jun 2006       08-12-2007, 7:28 PM Reply   
try this:
http://coloradoadventuresports.com/DownloadsandForms.htm

At the bottom under boat courtesy tips
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-12-2007, 7:53 PM Reply   
I was just thinkin, what if a license was required to drive a boat just like for a car? this would be a hassle but could solve ALOT of our problems. granted there still will be the token few jerkoffs at the lake, but then we can skip the "they just dont know" and the lets "educate them" and label them as morons. donno what thatll solve but its just a thought. Ill pass stuff out at saguaro and wherever else i go
Old    Ryan (bsebllhglyknit)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-12-2007, 8:55 PM Reply   
Steve that is perfect. Im going to print that out and make copies. Joey you should do the same and pass them out or put them on windshields.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-12-2007, 9:05 PM Reply   
Will do. Ill do it next friday. I might add some things tho or shorten it a bit. gotta cater to those lacking the ability to reading and lacking in the common sense! hahaha ill let you know how it goes
Old    Ryan (bsebllhglyknit)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-12-2007, 9:08 PM Reply   
It wont show right away but hopefully we get more people not likeing those people doing these activities (powerturning ect.) and this "good water syndrome" becomes a disease.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-12-2007, 9:23 PM Reply   
haha yea man i hear i ya. it gets in your blood!
Old    Tim (monkey)      Join Date: Oct 2002       08-13-2007, 2:21 PM Reply   
How many people here think this guy would have seen and avoided your fallen rider as you slowly idled back to pick him up?

Upload

Anyway, I heard a rumor that he'll be taking a road trip to your local riding spot. Be sure to pull up next to him and give him some helpful hints about preserving the glassy water. That seems pretty important.
Old    Tim (monkey)      Join Date: Oct 2002       08-13-2007, 2:32 PM Reply   
p.s. When people keep their distance, we idle back. When people tailgate, follow in our path, and aim straight for our fallen riders, we go straight at them, full throttle, turn hard, and put our boat between our rider and them, giving the ridder a chance of survival, so, yes, I'm out there power turning hard about 75% of the time in the summer months, and I'm not gonna stop. Sorry. If you want glassy water, ride in the Fall, Winter, and Spring, or find a secret spot. Summertime in popular spots is a wholy owned subidiary of people like those in the picture above. That's just life.
Old    Steve Jones (steve_jones)      Join Date: Jun 2006       08-13-2007, 5:29 PM Reply   
If anyone would like that flyer we made in Word so you can make your own changes to it, hit me up pm and I'll email it to you in Word.
Old    Tim (monkey)      Join Date: Oct 2002       08-14-2007, 3:02 PM Reply   
There's about a zero percent chance that guys like the one in the picture above who didn't even see the elevated rocky shoreline that was right in front of him will see your fallen rider. If you put out a flyer that convinces people on crowded waterways (very different than private lakes) to take their time in getting back to their riders for fear of making the water choppy, you may very well convince them to do something that leaves their fallen rider in harms way. I'd think twice about it.
Old    Ryan (bsebllhglyknit)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-14-2007, 3:20 PM Reply   
Tim these powertuners we are talking about are not the ones that are in crowded areas where there are so many people going straight that the water is torn up. We are talking about the ones that are up at 7 powerturning to pick up there rider when there is no boat even close to them. These are the ones that should be educated. Now beleive me i understand there is emergencies where power turning is needed to protect your rider, but this isnt 75% of the time. If your needing to powerturn 75% of the time to make sure your rider is safe then you need to find a new lake or go earlier.
Old    daryl case (dcase69)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-14-2007, 3:26 PM Reply   
Tim, on more than one occasion, i have been behind a powerturner, and because they swing wide, they actually "funnel" you towards the fallen rider. if youre using the extreme in that picture as an example, i doubt he would see a 21 foot wake boat either. you cant use that as your example. there is a much better chance of seeing a boat in front of you than a head floating in the water. if you keep your boat in line with the boarder, instead of swinging wide, there is a better chance of someone who is not paying good attention, to notice and go around. if someone is following so close you feel you need to powerturn, it seems that thats the last person i would want to swing wide in front of and push him towards my rider. youll only see me power turn when my boarder gets hurt. sounds like youll never stop power turning, and thats your deal, but how often do you feel your boarder is in such peril he needs you back 3 seconds earlier? 75% of the time seems high to me. oh well, just my lame opinion for what its worth.
Old    Ben C (dadthedriver)      Join Date: Jul 2004       08-14-2007, 4:06 PM Reply   
Tim. To power turn still does not protect a fallen rider. If you come off of plane turn hard right and go directly back to your rider you will be directly in the line of the rider and on coming boat. If you power turn you swing wide and leave the rider completely exposed while you swing wide and hope to get back to your line before the other boat. Just my 2 cents.
Old    Tim (monkey)      Join Date: Oct 2002       08-15-2007, 7:51 AM Reply   
1) As I said in my original post, if nobody's following close to us, or aiming at our rider, etc, we preserve the water, just like most people in those circumstances. That's not going to be the case very often in popular places during the summer.

2) I don't know what the turning radius of these boats are that you say "swing wide" and funnel the other boat towards your rider, or how they're being driven for that matter, but that's not what happens with the boats I've driven.

3) I like my riders chances a whole lot better with another boat between him and that over-sized IO's that's barreling down on him, than I do with him bobbing around out there alone.

4) This entire discussion sounds like one in which you're trying to convince people out at tresles or rincon (or any crowded surf break for that matter) to show wave courtesy... not gonna happen.

So, to get back to my original point. Powering back to your rider should pretty much go away on it's own in the off season, at uncrowded spots, etc, because the people who do it when they don't need to are gone, and those who do it when they do need to, simply don't need to anymore.
Old    daryl case (dcase69)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-15-2007, 8:50 AM Reply   
75% of the time seems pretty high. like ryan said, if thats the true, why do you board there in the first place? sounds like being there at all is more dangerous than any other factor. it also sounds like youre going to be a lifetime powerturner, and will find any excuse to do it (a boater that is close, a boater that is far, a seagull bearing down at your rider, etc.). i guess we'll agree to disagree and both be happy we dont go to the same water.
Old    Tim (monkey)      Join Date: Oct 2002       08-15-2007, 9:03 AM Reply   
It sounds like some of you aren't bothering to read what I've actually written, and just assume that I have no idea what I'm talking about, when, in fact, I've been driving boats and wakeboarding for quite a while.

Here's a reasonable compromise. Please read it before you comment. Put a picture of a driver with his hand up on the flyer, with the following sentence: "If you signal and show us that you see our fallen rider, we'll idle back to preserve your water. We hope you'll do the same."

(Message edited by Monkey on August 15, 2007)
Old    Tim (monkey)      Join Date: Oct 2002       08-15-2007, 9:06 AM Reply   
read "...we'll idle back to preserve your water.."

(Message edited by Monkey on August 15, 2007)
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-15-2007, 10:58 AM Reply   
Tim, when power turning the boat does "swing wide" and you then have to come back in to your path. When "stopping" and turning around, you remain in the line that you were following, and if the other boat is coming from behind you this is putting you in their line as well, and probably protecting the rider a bit. You should really go out and do a little study for yourself. Powerturning actually can take more time to get back to the rider.
Old    Tim (monkey)      Join Date: Oct 2002       08-15-2007, 1:17 PM Reply   
Your turning radius is obviously a function of your speed, and you certainly can't argue that idling back the whole way is faster than using power on the way back. To say that any turn with power makes you swing wide and take longer is a big generalization (and just plain wrong), just as it's a generalization to put out a flyer that implies that people should always idle back to their rider unless there's some sort of emergency. Many times it makes no sense at all to idle back to your rider, like when the water's already choppy or there's another wake coming at you and failing to keep the nose of your boat up will cause you to take water over the bow, or when there are boats behind you in very nose high attitudes that clearly can't see your rider but can see your tower for sure, or, as I started by writing, when the guys behind you make no attempt to turn nor any indication that they see your rider at all, or when you've got jetskis jumping your wake, or when you've got a small child in the water who just fell and might be scared to death, or when your friend who your teaching how to ride forgot to let go of the rope and may have smacked his head too hard, or when everyone is riding on the same side of the lake, and your wake will be gone before anyone has a chance to cross it, or when you're the only one out who cares about whether it's choppy or not and your wake will be gone before you startup again, etc etc...

Seriously though, why are you trying to school me here, like I don't know what I'm talking about? I've been doing this for a long long time.
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-15-2007, 1:45 PM Reply   
Ha!!! "or when you're the only one out who cares about whether it's choppy or not and your wake will be gone before you startup again"

You're totally right man, with all that experience you have, you don't need any schooling. What I quoted is a prime example. D case was right, a that sea gull is bearing down on your rider. There's no use in trying to explain any of this to you, you already said you would power turn at all times you deem necessary, which includes when no one is around. The wake created when you turn around will go down your previous path, which if you return to going that direction you will hit those rollers eventually. Turn around enough and you just messed up your whole run, let alone you probably did a few more trying to dodge the rider. Some people just seem to have a heart attack when the rider goes down, like they're so vulnerable sitting there in the water. Unless it's a kid, or another boat really is bearing down on the rider, there is no reason to power turn. Maybe someday you will lose the selfish attitude and realize power turning is useless and a waste of energy. This said, a flyer wouldn't do much good, everyone would react the same way you just did.
Old    Ryan (bsebllhglyknit)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-15-2007, 1:54 PM Reply   
A-Dub I dont beleive, I may be wrong, that everyone will act the same way tim is right now. I was a powerturner when i started in water sking and wakeboarding. I came onto this forum and with "reading that powerturning is ruining the water and is not neccessary" I stopped and have never since. When the water gets to the point that a rider is in danger because of boats following to close or jet ski's jumping your wake we leave. The beautiful thing of having a boat is that you can come again when the water is less hazardous.
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-15-2007, 2:08 PM Reply   
Hopefully you are right. I'm going to hand some to the enty gate personnel at my lake and see how that goes. I can't wait till after Labor Day when everyone's gone though.
Old    Tim (monkey)      Join Date: Oct 2002       08-15-2007, 2:44 PM Reply   
I don't cross over my own wake when there's nobody out, no. That's not how it works. You're making alot of false assumptions, and clearly, no matter what I write, you're going to continue to read something completely different into it, so I'm just going to stop now and let real world experience teach you the lessons that you could have learned right here. Enjoy.

(Message edited by Monkey on August 15, 2007)
Old    daryl case (dcase69)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-15-2007, 3:26 PM Reply   
"I've been driving boats and wakeboarding for quite a while."


that means nothing, my moms been driving cars for over 35 years and still sucks at it.

"Many times it makes no sense at all to idle back to your rider, like when the water's already choppy or there's another wake coming at you and failing to keep the nose of your boat up will cause you to take water over the bow"

someone with all of your expertise and experience should know its just as easy to turn the boat sideways....at an idle....to avoid taking on water over the bow. maybe a few more years of experience will show you that maneuver.


Tim, when i first read your posts, i respected your opinion, although severely disagreed. after a few more posts of yours that i read, you come off to me as someone unwilling and too close minded to see that there may be a better way to do something. its your life and your prerogative to go out and feel like mister safety guy, and haul ass back when all your doing is tearing up the water for yourself and everyone else. i defy anyone to show that they "need" to powerturn 75% of the time. its just a weak attempt at justification for doing something that is almost never necessary. have fun in your rollers. man i cant wait for winter.
Old    Tim (monkey)      Join Date: Oct 2002       08-15-2007, 4:45 PM Reply   
I'm closed minded because I presented a different point of view. Got it. Thanks for straightening me out. Anything else?
Old    Steve (sdmjr)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-15-2007, 7:06 PM Reply   
You guys are arguing like little girls. cant we all just get along ?
Old    Steve Jones (steve_jones)      Join Date: Jun 2006       08-15-2007, 7:26 PM Reply   
Man, there are a few "aggro" peeps on this post.

To say it neutrally, I agree with many of the people on this post but remember, "a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still".

I've had about a dozen people PM me for the flyer I made in a Word document. I just put it up on the website in Word for those that want it.

My intention was to spread courtesy so feel free to change whatever you need to, or shorten it, or whatever. I'm in the process of doing another one that is titled "Do you like to ride smooth water?" with more specific items, and less information. This flyer was the original so do what you need to with it, it's up on the site now.

It's called Boating Courtesy Tips - In Word. Here is the link: http://coloradoadventuresports.com/TipsandInstruction.htm

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