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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       05-02-2006, 5:48 AM Reply   
Good or bad, I really would appreciate your gut reaction and feedback.

Here is the scenario:

A wakesurfing contest SERIES at the end the points leader is announced the winner.

Most likely there will be 5 contests in this series.

The venue for this series is a lake that is only 7-8 feet deep, so the wake height will be limited. It will be made CLEAR the wake is SMALL to MEDIUM in height.

The time alloted for the wakesurfing contest portion is only 1 hour. With that time constraint, that means only ONE weighted boat. Most likely REGULAR.

Most likely the tow boat will be the same through out the series

Most likely one class - Wakesurfing Open division.

Standard runs will be 2 passes with 2 falls per pass.

If done well, there is a possibility the contests could go on to a national level with regional and national championships.

The LONG-TERM goal is to get more time alloted, a deeper water venue, multiple divisions, etc. The reality is that may NEVER happen but if it does, it will be years away.

Your thoughts, good or bad, please. Thanks.
Old    Ed G (ed_g)      Join Date: Nov 2005       05-02-2006, 8:14 AM Reply   
sounds exactly what we will be doing and anticipating at the future Florida tournament.
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       05-02-2006, 11:08 AM Reply   
It's a lot better than having no contest at all but the regular side only is a bigtime bummer and is unfair to 1/3-1/2 of potential participants. I rode a regular side wake 2 weeks ago and rode so poorly that I ended up extremely frustrated and riding switch. (almost as poorly) I doubt I would consider entering a event set up so.

Since the boat isn't going to be able to be fully weighted couldn't you use lead or several smaller sacks that can be manhandled from locker to locker?

...but like I said it's better than nothing.

BTW-On my sister's boat 4 of the 6 people who regularly surf are goofy
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       05-02-2006, 11:18 AM Reply   
I do appreciate the concern over goofy vs. regular. If we are limited to a one hour time slot and the wake is ADVERTISED as small to medium, it may well be possible to just use "bodies" as the ballast and shift them via seating. THIS might prove to be the most useful arrangement anyway, considering the time constraints.

I honestly don't know the true sampling of goofy vs. regular. At most of the contests we ride, the ratio is closer to 4:1 regular to goofy, sometimes even more lopsided.

However, what I am hearing you say, Sean, is ANYTHING is better than nothing, a certain degree a NO goofy contest is still nothing.

Sean, you aren't the only person concerned about this issue
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       05-02-2006, 2:02 PM Reply   
4 to 1? Is having a regular wake only a common practice because this could have something to do with it?

Like I said a regular only event is better than no event at all as far as exposure goes but it's not without it's repercussions.

If this is going to be part of a series maybe you can alternate wakes each event with a "allaround" award at the end of the season.

goofyfooters unite!
Old    entrust clothing (entrustclothing)      Join Date: Jul 2005       05-02-2006, 2:28 PM Reply   
im not goofy so it wouldn't affect me, but you can't have an invite be regular only. if i was goofy i wouldn't ride and i would be pissed about it. just do 2 heats, one for regular and one for goofy
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       05-02-2006, 3:06 PM Reply   
Hey CA, no...most of the events do both sides. The common practice is to weight one side of the boat down, run all those folks, then weight down the OPPOSITE side and run the OTHER folks.

In my heat in AZ, it was 3 regular's 1 goofy. The last contest in MN was 1 goofy and 8 regular's.

I don't pretend to know what the ratio is, but it isn't enhanced because of a FAILURE to provide a goofy ride.

Entrust, I'm struggling with the time allowed. The sanctioning body is only slotting 1 hour, plus the lake's size (man made) doesn't effectively allow more than one boat on at a time, so if I have to empty one side and fill the other...I'm thinking that drops participation to maybe a max of 4 riders, 2 each side when we factor in falls, scoring, getting boats in and out.

Without the time constraint or the physical constraints it would be BEST and easy to either have 2 boats or fill/drain/fill opposite routine, accomodating both rider types.
Old    xtreme            05-02-2006, 3:32 PM Reply   
Most of the riders I know and ride with, in Discovery Bay are goofy foot. They wouldn't even consider riding port side at a competition level, trust me, we've all tried and tried, it's not like a foot overhead ocean wave is pushing, so you can do big bottom turns and return back up to the wave and do whips off the top. Like the 'pro' ocean surfer's do.

Although, I agree, anything is better than nothing.

Shifting 'bodies' and lead is the simplest answer, IMO.

I think it would be interesting to do a poll, regular vs. goofy.
Old    entrust clothing (entrustclothing)      Join Date: Jul 2005       05-02-2006, 4:23 PM Reply   
as said people ballast will be the best. so fill up the front ballast and then get like 6 or so people in the back of the boat and just have them switch sides for regular and goofy riders :-)
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       05-02-2006, 4:28 PM Reply   
Considering you only have an hour I say just do whatever you need to do to be included then press for more time in the future.

But I also suggest changing it up every other contest (depending on the G to R ratio of course)
Old    Itch (fullonsalesgrp)      Join Date: Jan 2004       05-02-2006, 6:31 PM Reply   
Did I miss something? Why can't you have two boats set up for each. One goes the other waits at the dock. Get a boat manufacturer involved. And or a shop to use the team boat.
I would love to set two or three event here in Michigan but I have no knowledge of contests or sanctioning bodies.

Old    Dennis (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       05-02-2006, 6:37 PM Reply   
You know how I feel about Goofy foot. But I would attend if I had to ride backside. If the load could be moved safely and with minor differences they by all means do it.
By the way who is Ned?
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       05-02-2006, 7:52 PM Reply   
Besides myself only one other person that ride with has a regular stance, that's 5:1 in favor of Goofy. Good thing I don't live on the left coast. Can you have two boats ready to go?
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       05-02-2006, 8:40 PM Reply   
DENNIS! The stupid "e" key on this computer drives me crazy. :-)

The lake is 2,000 x 200 x 7. With obstacles (sliders) present. From the way I have seen the layout, it's hard to get a second boat in there and positioned quickly.

The premise is: I have 1 hour to launch boats, get riders out on the water, score, summarize, submit and retrive boats. Not 1 hour to pull folks, but 1 hour to do everything. There are different boats/contests before and after the slot proposed for us. It's not a bunch of time. I'm trying to consolidate as much as I can and I'm concerned that if I have to launch and retrive two boats, I have almost no riding time...but really this goofy riders outnumber regular riders discussion is a bit off track. Maybe I get NO GOOFY RIDERS that sign up. :-) Mostly all I'm hearing is you want goofy, but no one is saying SIGN ME UP. I REALLY don't care if there are more goofy than regular riders realistically it's all conjecture on EVERYONE'S part. I'd love to hear someone besides Dennis bellyup. Or tell me the format SUCKS! :-)

If I don't offer a goofy boat (or a regular boat) I can no doubt find 7 riders to fill my that isn't an issue for me in this preliminary discussion. What is important is what do folks feel...about the format as proposed.

Should we go for it? Should I pass, considering all the potential problems?
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       05-02-2006, 9:02 PM Reply   
Beating the same horse here, can't you launch sequentially? Launch regular, start riding regular while you launch goofy, then ride goofy while recovering regular, finish up with goofy and finally recover goofy? Sounds simple but I suppose there could be complications on site.

Iíd go with an event thatís not pretty and not perfect opposed to nothing. Just like Iíd rather be ride behind an old junker boat than watching on shore. As you establish interest you can justify more time and if available a better venue. Iím pretty far from the west coast so I suppose west coast opinions carry more weight.

The only reason not to go for it is that you have better options or some other better use of your time.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       05-03-2006, 7:19 AM Reply   
Ed, I do respect your opinion. On the line with this FIRST and NOT PRETTY contest is an "almost" guarantee that wakesurfing will then be included in the national finals.

To offer folks some perspective, the Centurion folks did a demo at the INT League national finals last year, with the hopes that they could get wakesurfing added as a component to INT League didn't happen. We are at the point of being able to succeeed where a BOAT MANUFACTURER couldn't. That's unheard of.

If we can pull it off with one sanctioning body, I am hopeful we can then ask the other sanctioning bodies to include wakesurfing on a national level, also.

At the National finals we WILL have two boats and a greater depth. I am expecting that for the second and succeeding contests I will find a way to succssfully provide regular and goofy wakes.

I think for the greater good, if you will, we have to make a few sacrifices, in the beginning and then build from there.

Oh and back to Itch I have talked to three of the boat manufacturers so far and they have each declined to assist. Mostly (one said they had no budget left for offering a boat) they looked at this venue (and I was straight with them about the time and depth) and they said: We don't want people to say; I rode behind a brand X at such-and-such contest and the wake sucked. When the reality is that the lake depth was the issue.

I do NOT have better options, in sight, Ed and I think there is a great deal to gain in terms of exposure and acceptance.
Old    Cliff (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       05-03-2006, 7:54 AM Reply   
I'm not sure that I understand
why can't you use 2 boats?
one set up regular and the other goofy

Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       05-03-2006, 8:18 AM Reply   
I think then that if there are 5 contests you should run a goofy wake in at least 2 of them or I think the whole things stinks-bad and is only providing a service for part of the community. Remember that a person is 20 times more likely to talk about a bad experience over a good one and only having one wake is exactly that for any goofyfooter that should happen to show up. The way I see it (and I admit my bias) your were right in quoting me that a no goofy contest is the same thing as no contest at all. (actually it's worse)
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       05-03-2006, 9:15 AM Reply   
Sean in my post...uuummm two above this one? I wrote:

"At the National finals we WILL have two boats and a greater depth. I am expecting that for the second and succeeding contests I will find a way to succssfully provide regular and goofy wakes. "

BUT, to get this all out, BEFORE the contest, Sean's position is: "it's all or nothing". I appreciate your candor. So, from your perspective I should NEVER organize a contest unless I had classes for:

1) Surf - Regular
2) Surf - Goofy
3) Skim - Regular
4) Skim - Goofy

BECAUSE, I have just as much "stinks-bad" email from advocates of surf style. Your position is that I need to consider all, or NOT organize a contest. (play devils advocate with me, please :-) )

I'm chuckling just a bit, wondering why this sport languishes in obsecurity. :-)

I do believe, Sean, that if I can get this first contest going, that I CAN and WILL get a workable format to accomodate most styles and orientations, but...I disagree with you that it should be all or nothing from the start. Personally I feel we need to make inroads and THEN develop from there.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       05-03-2006, 9:46 AM Reply   
My point on relevance is that I'm too far away to show up, so don't rig the boat for my stance or my crew. I like Seanís proposal to run two of the contests on the starboard wake and three on the port wake.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       05-03-2006, 10:00 AM Reply   
uuummm, maybe I'm not clear. Sorry folks. First one is one side only ALL OTHERS are both sides.

We are working with EPIC Boats to try and get one of their boats to pull the contest and if we CAN with their HUGE ballast capacity, we might be able to pull it off. No guarantees.

C'mon folks! Work with me here! :-)
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       05-03-2006, 10:08 AM Reply   
D'oh, I totally missed that part. I thought it would be throughout the whole series. Nevermind
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       05-03-2006, 10:12 AM Reply   
I know that feeling :-) Is everyone ok with this? The first contest is a "best we can do under the circumstances" and then the rest we TRY and improve? First order of business is REGULAR and GOOFY. Next order of business is separate classes for skim and surf?
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       05-03-2006, 10:23 AM Reply   
I also don't mean to like I don't support this event because I'll stand behind any wakesurfing contest 110% because the #1 priority is to have at least something available to the largest concentration of surfers in the world. I just wanted to voice my concerns and not hinder the incredible time and effort you've put into bringing competitive wakesurfing to California
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       05-03-2006, 10:30 AM Reply   
You Rock Sean, I know that you are at the core of promoting wakesurfing throughout the country. I couldn't make things happen without folks like you and companies like Walzer Boards.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       05-04-2006, 9:06 AM Reply   
Ok, so at this venue, they have sliders and we all know that with sliders you have to accomodate regular and goofy stance, additional negotiation looks like we can get two hours for this initial contest AND provide for both regular and goofy stance. I will be using the same boat for both sides, so the best I can hope for is to get the wake on the goofy stance side about 80% of the regular side. Is that acceptable for my "goofy" folks? :-)

Next item of business. Should we consider surf vs skim at this contest? We can run all of the riders simultaneoulsy and then separate for awards. Thoughts?
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       05-21-2006, 7:06 AM Reply   
Just a quick update. The first contest of the series was yesterday. I'll post pictures and a blurb later in the week. Huge props to Jerry Price and Dennis Horton for all their help judging and helping making the event run so smoothly. Also to Chuck and Linda of the NorCal INT League for giving us the opportunity.

We only had 1.5 hours, which isn't much time. We filled that with 16 riders and had to turn away 5 folks I believe. The venue was Villa Lagos, a man made wakeboarding lake that is on average 10 feet deep. So some quick "findings".

The 10 foot depth is adequate to create a surfable wake. No one is going to walk away saying: That was the most killer wake ever!, but it can be done effectively. The greater issue is a rapid change in depth. When the depth goes from 10 feet to 6 feet quickly, the wake disappears. With a static depth, the wake can be formed. Also, 8 feet seems to be a marginal cutoff for depth. Less than 8 makes it hard to form a surfable wake.

Of the 16 riders, four rode with a goofy stance. In the OTHER contests I've attended, this is pretty typical. The regular stance riders outnumber the goofy stance riders by a considerable margin (the caveat - of those folks entering contests).

NO ONE entered a skim style division. There was only 1 Phase 5 at the event. All other riders were on some form of surf style board. (Shred Stixx, Shoreline Lake Board, Walker Project, Butter Churn) As I've mentioned in other threads, when we've been to contests out in say...Iowa, folks there haven't even HEARD of a skimboard. I'm not making a commentary about surf vs skim, but in my experince, to date, the
majority of folks, read amateurs, WHO ENTER a contest ride surf style. This would be in direct contrast to the World's which tends to feature skim style in the men's open. That isn't representative of the sport for the majority of amateur riders who enter contests. :-) It could be there are TONS of skim style riders and they just don't enter contests. :-)

More, later in the week. OH! Also thanks to our sponsors: Wakesurfing Magazine, Entrust Clothing, Inland Surfer, The Walker Project, Trick Boardz, Calibrated Wakesurfing, Xtreme Board Company, 2nsane and Shred Stixx.


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