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Old    hipnotik            03-17-2005, 2:54 PM Reply   
i am about to redo the sound system in my boat...and i want all of the bling bling JL Audio / Zapco / NVS stuff that everyone else wants...but is it really worth it? i mean when floating on the lake with all of the ambient noise of being outside (others boats, wind, etc.) and loss of transfer function, am i gonna be able to tell the difference between one appropriately powered, high dollar sub and an appropriately powered, moderately priced onet? what about at riding speed where i will spend 90% of my time?

I have a 12w7 sitting in my closet that will probably never make it into my boat...not because it is not an awesome sub, but i think i may reach the point of diminishing returns long before i realize the true capabilities of that sub in this application...

grant, phaeton: i love your work, but at what point does the $$$/performance ratio get out of hand? what would satisfy 99% of the non-stereo insane people out there?

any other opinions? what do you think?
Old    Tate Viehmann (redv215)      Join Date: Mar 2005       03-17-2005, 3:24 PM Reply   
Extreme, I think it is all a matter of "keeping up". I have a modest system in my boat. It hits hard enough, can be heard by the boarder and has a clean sound. That is all that matters. Do what you want and forget the peer pressure.
Old    Face Planter (mastercraft1995)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-17-2005, 3:39 PM Reply   
I have a cd player and 4 speakers in my boat. It cost me $200 bucks and I'm happy with it. When your 50 and can't hear anymore or having ringing in your ears tell me if it was worth it. Just my opinion.
Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-17-2005, 3:58 PM Reply   
I like to have nice stuff and lot's of it so everything is prioritized and sacrafices are made accordingly because I do not have a large supply of discretionary funds. It's unlikely that you will see any of the big names in the stereo in my new boat unless somebody wants to sponsor me. My boat also lives outside on a lift where my gear is exposed to theft so off brands are actually more appealing in my case.

I firmly believe that 1/2 of the cost for most of the big names goes to marketing, in fact some of the big names are just marketing companies contracting out the production of their equipment. However in the very top tier of the products a significant portion of the money also goes to tech support, the access to that support is often worth the extra investment (ie. JL, MB Quart, Boston, etc.).

I would say that NVS is a little out of the norm because they use very expensive components in hand built enclosures produced in small quantities, not much on marketing, but the support is still there. The new Skylon gear may also fall into this area.

I have learned so much from the guys that pour huge sums of money into thier boat systems I am very thankful to them for sharing their knowledge. My needs are modest and therefore my budget is modest, I will be doing my own install using the lowest cost quality equipment I can find. Still I will try to incorporate as much of the quality that Grant and others employ when they install their systems.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       03-17-2005, 4:14 PM Reply   
My answer to the boat question is quantity, not quality. I won't spend the huge $ on a system exposed to water and elements and to be listened to over the sound of a slightly muffled engine.

I don't need to the top $ stuff to make my boat system sound good. Be very selective and spend money where it counts. Make sure you are running quality speakers that can handle the moisture, but seperates may be out of my league. Make sure your amp makes plenty of power and has some crossover flexibility. I'm running a 15 solobaric Kicker sub that wasn't expensive and is indestructible. My system conisists of: The kicker sub under the drivers dash, 2 MTX amps (don't remember power from the top of my head), 4 coax Boston Acoustics, a Loud Liquid box with 4 Krystal 6X9's, a Clarion Marine deck (junk), and a mono mosfet amp that is relly well built and rated at 1000watts @ 2ohms (don't remember the brand... Thanks e-bay).

I've heard a lot of systems, but not many of which really blow away my system and I spent a relatively modest amount creating it. The convenience of having a sub level control and remote for the head deck at the drivers seat was important.

I definitely think a lot of people go overboard, but if thats what makes them happy, then it's worth it. I just dont have the time to care. I want a system that works all the time, so I can ride and not worry about it.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       03-17-2005, 4:35 PM Reply   
Regardless, if you are riding and can hear the music and understand it... you are not riding hard enough. You are most likely just cruising around. I can hear and understand my music when I first get up, but, when I start to ride; it is all business and I do not hear anything until I am done with my run. I love my stereo and it is loud enough, but, it is mainly good for hanging out at the beach.
Old    Kraig Kaiser (kraig)      Join Date: Dec 2002       03-17-2005, 5:09 PM Reply   
I agree with Rod. When it comes time to concentrate on your game the music becomes secondary. But there is that part of my riding that is all about enjoying the riding AND the music. Like when I'm just cruising the wakes, cutting to the outside in flat water, doing some tight S turns.

C.I.E.- I personally like quality over quantity. Why have a system that is louder than a club but sounds like sounds less than perfect? I was in Havasu last summer and there was this guy who was raving about his system and how big it was. He turned it on, turned a speaker on a pivot our way and it sounded like was cruel to sit and listen to it. I was just about to say something to the guy when a girl in our crew stopped me and told me not to. It's like telling a guy his equipment is too small. LOL!

All too often we go for the loudest system without taking into account how it's going to sound. We pump as much wattage to our speakers as we can to say we have the biggest choch. It can be too loud! My system is very clean, it's loud as hell too. Maybe not as loud as some others on here but it does just fine with a great clean sound cranked up. There is more to the equation than just volume. Then beyond that we are dealing with an open air system, unlike car installs which are in an enclosed vehicle.

As to answer your question: Stereo equipment is just like everything else out there. Eventually you get the diminishing on returns curve. There is awesome high end equipment which is very expensive, there's the cheap POS equipment that sounds like looks great! And then there's the middle of the road, name brand that sounds great to our ears. Research Research Research!!! Shop around, search the net, listen to the equipment at your local audio stores. I got all my Focal speakers at $99 a pair. That's a steal! And yes, most of the good stuff costs alot due to it's ALL luxury items. So name brands I think are the way to go if you want a quality sound.

Sorry, just my $.02 or $1.02! lol!
Old    2002_pro_v            03-17-2005, 8:57 PM Reply   
NVS high quality--sure!
NVS expensive components--not so! Here is what makes an NVS 1010:

$45 x 2 - Beta 10A (midbass driver)($41 for 8As)
$49 x 1 - PSD2002 (compression driver)
$23 x 1 - LT250 (Horn)
$20 x 1 - PXB:1k6 (or similar crossover)
$15 x 2 - Tower mounts
$10 x 2 - Polk speaker grills

Total = $232 for "expensive compenents" at consumer cost. imagine as a reseller, NVS pays 2/3 of that for a cost of $160. throw an extra $100 or so in there for other material and production costs and you come out to $260 max to make these things. your cost is $995, for a slim NVS profit of @ $735 per 1010 speaker.

with that in mind, you must think about ALL of your stereo components in the same mind set...speakers have been speakers for years...there have been no major technological advancements that justifies a $500 sub as opposed to a $150 sub...
Old    2002_pro_v            03-17-2005, 9:11 PM Reply   
here is another thought:

a sub's ability to handle power does not make it louder...it makes it more inefficient! to handle more power, the suspension (spider and surround) must be stiffer. the stiffer it is, the more power it takes to drive the speaker! this is one reason why pro audio equipment usually gets louder than car audio equipment with less power!

look at a subs SPL efficiency numbers (in the t/s parameters). the number represents the max SPL a speaker will reach given 1 watt of power. with that in mind, it is widely believed that it to achieve a 3 db increase in SPL, you must double the power deliver to the sub (creating an exponential curve)...if you choose a sub with a high SPL number, the more efficient it is, and will get loud with less power...for example:

Infinity Kappa Perfect 12-->SPL = 96
Kicker S12L7-->SPL = 87

------------SPL
Watts---Perfect---L7
1---------96------87
2---------99------90
4--------102------93
8--------105------96
16-------108------99
32-------111------102
64-------114------105
128------117------108
256------120------111
512------123------114
1024-----126------117

of course that is all in theory, but the point is this: you arent getting what you pay for...

(Message edited by 2002_pro_v on March 17, 2005)

(Message edited by 2002_pro_v on March 17, 2005)
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       03-17-2005, 9:23 PM Reply   
Audio is definitely a space of diminishing returns...

I am OK with stock boat speakers, stock stereo, an amp and tower speakers.

If I upgrade, I would just add bigger tower speakers and a sub.
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-17-2005, 10:15 PM Reply   
believe it or not zapco/jl is mid level in mobile audio..there is better sounding gear. the question is what is important to you and is it worth spending more..

one of the most important factors for running decent mid level gear is reliability and repairability...

if one wants to listen at loud levels for a extended period of time and not have the amps shut down, then you cant go wrong with jl/zapco for amps, image dynamics for speakers, eclipse for head units....they are the best without breaking the bank imo.... you have to spend a lot more to do better (law of diminishing returns in effect). btw, there is also certain synergy between zapco amps and image dynamics speakers.

if something does go wrong (once in a while somethng goes) you can get it repaired inexpensivley ( that is the problem with brax, sinfioni, esoteric, addison -repairs are difficult or non exsistant).

btw, some really great used amps are the kicker zr series...they are a a/d/s design that are very reliable and way underspeced..

(Message edited by clubmyke on March 17, 2005)
Old    derek boyer (toyotafreak)      Join Date: Sep 2003       03-17-2005, 10:21 PM Reply   
This is coolest-titled thread of all time. It would work for audio equipment, boats, cars, smokes, whatever. Sierra Hotel and Bravo Zulu, Extreme!!!!
Old    Jason Pribyl (skibum69)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-18-2005, 6:32 AM Reply   
I don't think the Entities use the Beta 10A drivers, they are paper cones, I am pretty sure the Entities use poly cones.
Old    whitechocolate            03-18-2005, 8:53 AM Reply   
"2002 pro V" Great second post, Way to make friends by spreading mis-information,
Old    2002_pro_v            03-18-2005, 10:32 AM Reply   
grant,

i am open to constructive criticism and i am aware that making stoopid comments will result in a lack of trust/friends. if i mispoke, then by all means, correct me (i am often wrong)... the last thing i want to be is wrong, so please help me out here and tell me what mis-information i am spreading...

that being said, i feel it is important to note that my comments were based on theory (as i mentioned in the post)...
Old    Jason Pribyl (skibum69)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-18-2005, 10:52 AM Reply   
I think what grant is saying is that there is a differance between a $500 sub and a $150 one. If you don't agree let me ask you is there a differance between a $120,000 Mercedes SMG SL600 and a $9000 Kia Rio?
Old    Tallredrider (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       03-18-2005, 11:20 AM Reply   
Forgive me if I'm wrong, But Pro V didn't include the price of the cans the NVS come in, did he? I would think they are fairly pricey. I have to beleive there is some profit in it, but I think if the profit were that much, you'd be seeing someone else doing it and undercutting the price.
Old    swass            03-18-2005, 11:24 AM Reply   
There's a lot more overhead involved when producing a product than just materials.
Old    whitechocolate            03-18-2005, 1:10 PM Reply   
I was talking about your crazy price break down for the NVS stuff. Im not even sure or understand what you were talking about in the rest of your post. SPL this or DB that.

There is no way you could make a NVS 1010 for $160 as you suguest thats the mis information I was speaking of, Mabey I was a litle harsh, so sorry I came off that way. If you have ever made and sold stuff like this (The NVS speakers) you would understand that way more goes into getting somthing like this to market then just the list of thing's you listed, Its almost a insult to Duane, like he is ripping people off and making hand over fist money on each set of speakers, when you put it the way you did. I dont know if you ment to do that or you just dont know what your talking about. If thats the case you should put that in your post so people like me dont think your talking out of your a$$. Try using "IMO" or "I think" or "Im not sure but" that way no one is offended,

just my $0.02


Now get back to discussing how over priced stereo equipment from "Evil Money Grubbing Companys" has no place in a boat. LOL


Old    Bob (bob)      Join Date: Feb 2001       03-18-2005, 1:57 PM Reply   
Grant im sure you know what he means by db and spl as far as subs go, right? As far as the other numbers id like to see a more accurate list of parts cost if someone has one??
My buddy did buy one of those high priced boxes from another up and coming box builder and now he has to have major repairs done to fix the face of the box as it has broken away?? I know this is just a piece of the whole stereo but yes it is one of those that you must have.
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-18-2005, 2:11 PM Reply   
there are some very good $150-$200 subs out there...

it is really, really, really, easy to make a $500 sub sound really bad...(it is quite often the chef vs. the ingrediants)

a lot comes down to box design, construction, crossover, and amp...
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-18-2005, 2:16 PM Reply   
btw, i think $1000 to $1500 for a set of tower speakers is pretty reasonable...

if you try building a pair of tower speakers you will come within $200 and have to tweek them (about a 1 year project) and they more than likely wont turn out as nice ( if you are a professional, then you could build them and have them turn out)
Old    2002_pro_v            03-18-2005, 2:22 PM Reply   
let me preface this with i think that NVS is a great idea, and i am sure it is a wonderful, quality product. demand exceeds supply, so the market has determined the appropriate cost of such an item.

here are a couple of references for what components are going into the NVS speakers:

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/79257.html
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/101848.html

here is a link to where you can get the critical components (AT CONSUMER COST) to make the same speakers:

www.bltsound.com

some of the prices won't show until you are ready to check out, just update your basket. this is where i got the CONSUMER prices for the components. i am certain that a reseller can get even lower prices. the same goes with aluminum tubing for the midrange drivers, the tower mounts, and the speaker grills...the most sophisticated part of the system that has to be fabricated is the front panel that has NVS etched into it...

i am not saying that there is anything wrong with making money...heck, if eskimos would buy snow cones, i would be the first one to move to Alaska to sell them...

now apply the same market approach to JL Audio (which i believe makes the best subs out there). because they mass produce there products, they can bring down the cost of parts, production, and labor...honestly, how much $$$ do you think goes into a 12w7? certainly not the $600+ they ask for them...
Old    swass            03-18-2005, 2:30 PM Reply   
Again, cost of components is not the only factor when figuring production overhead.

Can you make a one-off 1010 for less than retail, even figuring minimum wage for your time investment? I bet it would be close, and you have the benefit of reverse-engineering and you don't have to worry about marketing.

If you think the price is too high, don't buy 'em, but don't hate on the dudes for makin' a living. They make a quality product with a markup that the market will bear. That's business.
Old    2002_pro_v            03-18-2005, 2:37 PM Reply   
grant,

my knowledge only goes as deep as what i can consider reliable resources. i have spoken with a couple of pro audio dealers who claim that to increase the volume level 3db, you must double your power. they may not know what they are talking about, but somehow they have managed to stay in business for 12+ and 15+ years, respectively. as far as the power vs. output (my SPL this, DB that) nonsense that you raved about, a quick google returned mulitple sources claiming the same thing. here are three:

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Decibel
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/109138.html
http://www.ews64.com/mcdecibels.html

again, i claim to know nothing, but this is what others say.

i see nowhere in any of my previous posts where i need to use IMO, or I believe that...whatever. I showed you the price for components, i showed you the theory behind power vs. output...none of that is opinion...
Old    2002_pro_v            03-18-2005, 4:32 PM Reply   
whoa! why am i being attacked?

i already said that i am sure they are a great product...
i am a capatalist...so if they are "worth" that much, then NVS will stay afloat, which they are...consumers vote with their wallets...i hope NVS is making a killing on their products...

swass-->I couldn’t have said it better myself…and I am not mad at him for trying to make some scratch…

chavez-->come on bro, don't open yourself up so easy...

stoopid assertion #1: most of the people on this board don't "know" duane...they know of him and they know what he does. They don’t have his phone number, they don’t know where he lives, and they don’t go out for beers. at most, they could merely claim acquaintance because they have posted on the same thread as him. You probably fall into this category…

stoopid assertion #2: I have to personally meet duane to assign quality to his products. I have never met the meloons and I am quite certain correct craft makes quality products. And even if I had met them, that would have no bearing on their talent to produce great boats…the funny thing is that I have already said his products are high quality, but you are not convinced…

stoopid assertion #3: I think NVS just threw those speakers together and etched their name into the aluminum. Negative partner. Nowhere did I suggest that…it is true, however, that he did not make the parts of the system that make the noise: the mid bass drivers, the compression driver, and the horn…

stoopid assertion #4: I am an imbecile. You have yet to offer one credible argument as to why this would be true. In the place of fact, you have offered three ludicrous assertions…I wonder whom the imbecile is…

I will not bring NVS up again…as I said before, I am certain their products are great…
Old    Psyclone (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       03-18-2005, 5:10 PM Reply   
Dude,
Duane did his homework, used off the shelf, quality parts, and made something nobody else thought of before. And, he tuned the off the shelf PA parts to work together well, and not sound like crap. Then, he got someone to make him enclosures, clamps, etc. to put it all together into a top quality, fully engineered product that you can buy today, right now. From day one, he posted pics of what he was doing and parts he used, and his sources. He alone caused a paradigm shift in speaker design for this application, and other companies like Skylon should pay him some $$ every time they sell a Defcon speaker, because they flat ripped off his design. I'd guess he's not making a kings ransom selling these things, it's a very narrow market. He sits squarely on top of it, deservedly so.

It's easy to second guess and reverse engineer stuff, if you were in the market for tower speakers two years ago you would know that a pair of Boss cans with 6.5's was the before Duane came along. If you can come up with something that works better, go nuts. If not, shut the F up.

(Message edited by cyclonecj on March 18, 2005)

(Message edited by cyclonecj on March 18, 2005)
Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-18-2005, 6:56 PM Reply   
2002-pro-v,

Welcome to wakeworld, no go back where you came from...

Seriously, you are bashing one of the most innovative products resulting from home brewed ambition from somebody that wanted to offer something better to the wakeboarding population.

When you buy the components to steal Duane's design are you going to leave them components in their shipping boxes when you mount them to the tower? You are close with some of the driver part numbers, but your prices are wrong and you are missing about half of the components. Shortly after hearing the NVS setup I thought I could build a setup for less, after shipping and enclosures I was only saving a couple hundred bucks then it dawned on me that they needed some seriously equalization and attenuation crossovers. If you are a machinist and your time is free then you might be able to copy a set of NVS speakers, but they won't sound the same until you rework the crossovers, and figure out the cone treatment.

There are a couple guys that have spent lots of money putting together successful home brewed tower speakers, I am sure all of us will tell you the little misc. costs and mistakes add up very quickly.

I am not sure where you are learning about speakers but your post about subwoofers is completely random. The suspension stiffness helps to keep a sub within it excursion limits, power handling is mainly the voice coil's ability to dissapate heat before self destructing having almost no relevance to efficiency.
Old    2002_pro_v            03-19-2005, 1:37 AM Reply   
I am having a difficult time understanding why you guys are attacking me. For the sake of argument, I will go along with you (all of the following I have admitted to before):

Duane: smart, great guy
NVS: well engineered, quality product

I have said it once, I will say it again: NVS is a quality product…

Now, if you follow the NVS product development from the beginning, you will see that the original products of an 808 are and 2 eminence Beta 8as, a PSD2002 and an LT250. I am not making this up, it is listed in the very first post regarding this:

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/79257.html

read it and you will understand….

Psyclone you are absoulutely right. Duane did his homework. And he did it well. He does sit very squarely on top of this market, and deservedly so…just remember this: eminence makes over half of the America’s loud speakers. To think that duane is the first to combine a couple of midbass drivers to a horn is ludacris. Credit definitely goes to the application, but not the combination…duane is not the first to make the pairing between these compenents….

Mikeski again, read my previous posts before you talk…I never bashed duane or his product. I am certain there are costs that I haven’t considered. However, follow the aforementioned post and you will learn of the products involved. That was HIS post, not mine. And if I am so wrong about speakers, then correct me…none of the other aficionados on this site have corrected me yet. If the surround is stiffer on any speaker (for whatever reason) then it takes more effort to move the cone (whether by hand or by electrical energy). If you agree that SPL is a function of :

surface area X displacement

then you will understand that a stiffer sub will take more power to equal the same amount of output…if you need a stiffer suspension to keep a sub within its power limits, then you are compensating for more power…why not soften the suspensions and reduce the power required to drive them…you don’t see any speakers nearly as “technologically advanced” as a JL W7 when you go to a concert, do you? I wonder why?

5 short years ago, 3 12w6s were the bomb… the required 300 watts apiece and blow you mind…now the marketing of big companies has you convinced that you need 1500w and a JL12w7 to get loud….yet competition SPLrecords have only risen 10 db in the past 5 years…you do the math…


(Message edited by 2002_pro_v on March 19, 2005)
Old    hipnotik            03-19-2005, 7:52 AM Reply   
holy hijack! well, after some careful consideration the 12w7 is definitely not going in the boat...i have decided to go with 3 x 12s: one under the dash and two behind the observers seat...now i just need to decide which ones:

infiniti perfect 12s
kicker comp VR 12s

any other suggestions for cheap 12 subs that will do the trick?


Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-19-2005, 8:51 AM Reply   
image dynamic idq 12 v2.....awesome sub !!!! a lot of audiophiles and competitors use it...

to do bettter you will have to spend a lot more..

Old    swpmwinc            03-19-2005, 9:03 AM Reply   
Polk Momo
Old    Timothy (timmy)      Join Date: Jul 2001       03-19-2005, 2:49 PM Reply   
haha if you go waaaay back you could probably find posts by me and others suggesting use of PA components for tower speakers long before nvs came into play. of course, i did not have the motivation to make it happen, as i personally don't want tower speakers on my boat. much props to duane for making it happen and I am delighted to see that it is working great for him!

to address the original question, yes you can use mid grade subs and have it sound good. I have two infinity perfect 12's in my boat, in front of the drivers feet. they sound wonderful (sealed enclosure, plenty of power), are resistant to the elements, and play very loud. you can easily hear me coming from quite a ways away if i have it cranked. I'll personally neve buy a jl w7 sub because i don't think it gains much over another decent sub. on the other hand i DO have two boston pro10's in my car, so I am not adverse to overpriced subs (which i bought used so i saved a lot of money)
Old    Bill Bierbower (monstertower)      Join Date: Mar 2003       03-19-2005, 10:39 PM Reply   
Years ago on these boards Tim and others were saying ProAudio was the way to go. A few innovative wakeboarders invested the time and effort to make a tower speaker system with HLCD's and higher efficiency mid-bass for their boat.

Kudo's to Duane for being the FIRST (OK, nVert had something but I dont know that it ever really made it to market) to make a ProAudio product for the market.

The $232 may be what you can buy the raw components for in the gray market but if you add the cost of the cans, labor, wiring, binding posts, billet parts, research, advertising, assembly, packaging, insurance, phone lines, employees, legal fees (welcome to the sue happy world of wakeboarding), promotions, sponsorships, etc, etc, etc (and profit) then you will realize that Duane has been a true innovator and has done a great job hooking fellow wakeboarders up with a great product at a fair price - IMHO.
Old    Duane (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-29-2005, 12:28 AM Reply   
Well now! Some people had told me about this thread but only today did I actually have time to find it.
Firstly, let me thank ALL of you that have supported NVS, myself, and my partner Todd. I could not have done it without your help.
At the top of the list for supporters is Bill of Monster Tower and Mike Helweg of Wakeside. These two guys were crucial in my taking the product from a simple DIY project and making a marketable product of it.
Above we saw some posts suggesting that the consumer do "reserch, research and research" and most of us do that IMO. Personally, I think that Pro v knows more then the average person about speakers based on some of his comments above. The only thing that bothers me is the statement "Here is what makes an NVS 1010:" I would rather hear someone say the don't like the way they look....which is of course subjective much like sound reproduction.
But unless you've taken one completely apart, there is only 2 people on this planet that has that information, myself, and Todd.
Research is an awesome thing....when complete. When incomplete or wrong, all kinds of poop happens. Sometimes resulting in verbal attacks.
Although it would be awesome to be able to make a living doing the NVS thing, the fact is I don't, nor does Todd.... maybe some day.
Thanks again for the props.
Oh, and Brand does Matter IMO, but it's not all inclusive. By that I mean research, research to find what those brands are. You may surprise yourself as to what the BEST brands really are for a given product.

D out

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