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Old    wayne_wilson            02-10-2004, 11:32 PM Reply   
Would you be interested in buying 5-10 hours per month from me on a SAN?

I am looking at buying a well-equiped SAN and want to sell leases/partnerships in the boat. Expecting the price to be approximately $50-$60 per hour.
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       02-11-2004, 12:22 AM Reply   
Bold move... it could really suck owning a boat with random people.
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       02-11-2004, 12:31 AM Reply   
How 'bout pulls for me for $20/day? That sounds much cheaper to me.

dane's right...pretty damn bold.
Old    BoRed (sdboardr99)      Join Date: Aug 2001       02-11-2004, 1:18 AM Reply   
Wow, 10 hrs per month at $50/hr = $500 a month!
Old    David (tparider)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-11-2004, 5:12 AM Reply   
For $500 a month I could buy, store, gas, and pay someone to wipe down my own SAN after each use.

Why would someone pay $500 a month just you "use" your SAN? Am I missing something here?
Old    whitechocolate            02-11-2004, 6:48 AM Reply   
Dave?
Where on this earth can you. Buy a new SAN. Gas it. Pay for insurance. Store it. Have someone wipe it down for you everytime you use it for $500.
Mabey Wayne is a little off on his hourly figure but I think you are way off on yours.
Old    tclagggym            02-11-2004, 6:55 AM Reply   
If your going to buy a SAN and can't or don't want to float the whole bill, just find one other person to go in on it. Just my 2 cents.
Old    Alpha_Beast (socalwakepunk)      Join Date: Dec 2002       02-11-2004, 8:59 AM Reply   
I don't think that Dave is that far off. For a few extra dollars, the SAN would be 100% yours.

BTW how many 5-10 hr slots do you plan on selling? Let me know if it works out, I'm looking for another line of work anyway !
Old    stormrider            02-11-2004, 10:01 AM Reply   
Whoa, put on your finance caps. Putting on my tax lawyer hat, Wayne's offering an interesting deal. I would look into it if I did not have a boat already.

Boat owners: what does it cost to operate your boat per hour? Factors are as follows: payment (principal and interest), fuel, maintenance, wear and tear to the tow vehicle and trailer, insurance, and depreciation. I have a 2002 Moomba Mobius LSV, capital cost 30k. My calculations show that it costs me $61.34/hour to run my boat without taking the tow vehicle factor into account.

I figure a SAN would cost $80-90, at least. I'm not sure how the economic items are being allocated under Wayne's proposal, but it is not something to dismiss out of hand.

A boat costs a lot more than its monthly payment. Simple example: payment is $300/mth. Boat costs 30, but after 200 hours and 1 year it is only worth 23k, or 7k less. Figure your payment covered 1k. How much did it cost to run the boat (leaving out insurance, gas, maintenance, tow vehicle, etc.)-- the monthly payment plust the depreciation. Monthly payment is 3.6k +6k depreciation= 9.6k total/200 hours= $48 an hour without gas, maintenance, tow or insurance.

In southern CA where you can "mooch" a ride for $7.5 to $10 a pull (1/2 hour each), the boat owner is being generous.
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       02-11-2004, 10:48 AM Reply   
Boat owners would be out of line to ask people on the boat to help pay for the depreciation of the boat/trailer/tow-vehicle.

Ownership costs should go to the owner. This includes the cost of the boat/trailer, service, storage, registration, and insurance. This is probably about $5K/year for a newer boat.

Daily usage costs are fair to disperse. To me, this is just gas. So, $20 per person per day (3 pulls each) is about right.
Old    Nick (tiger20)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-11-2004, 10:52 AM Reply   
That's a novel idea but you better have some thorough contracts written out for the "renters/leasers". Then have them reviewed by lawyers to cover yourself.
Old    wayne_wilson            02-11-2004, 11:01 AM Reply   
I agree that at first glance this appears expensive, but how many of you that responded to this actually own your own boat and have looked at the all in costs? I don't know that those numbers are the right answer and that is why I am on message board. I do know that on an all in cost that is significantly cheaper to own a boat and disperse the costs (That is not hard to prove). I am really not trying to make money on this (the goal of this post is to figure out what the fair price is), just to help reduce the costs of owning won of these fabulous machines. FYI - to keep it a legitimate business I will have to be a customer as well.

Lets look at the math below, but lets not debate the numbers to be super precise because the relationship in the numbers does not changes with immaterial moves in size.

Boat $50,000 (estimated) = $5,000 down by me on a depreciating asset
Annual Cost of Capital (assume 7%) = $3,150 on the $45,000 borrowed
Annual Depreciation = $4,000 for the LLC and 3,000 for an individual (do to less use) (This is actual market value, not book for the LLC, and may be low)
Annual Storage = 12*$250 (indoor) and individual is $50*12 (outdoor)
Annual Maintenance = $800, I plan on doing all the fluid changes and any minor repairs myself (assume $600 individual)
Annual Insurance = $800 for the LLC and assume $400 for an individual
Annual LLC Costs = $1,200, a cost not incurred by any individual

I know this analysis is not perfect, but is simply an example.

The way I see it operating costs (exclusive of gas/ramp fees etc.) are $4,600 for an individual and $8,800 for the LLC.

When you take into account actual depreciation the costs are $12,950 for the LLC and $7,750 for the individual giving benefit to cost differentials from being an individual.

We can debate the numbers all day, but the issue is simply if there are three people (including me) then costs have to be much higher on the LLC side or much lower on the individual side to even make them comparable.

The question is how much are you going to use the boat? 100 hours per year? 50 hours per year? I know you can rent a couple year old Ski Nautique with a tower at Shasta from the Toy Box for $75/hour. What do we think the fair price is? And lets not low ball me cause I am trying to facilitate everybody having a nice boat to enjoy and reduce cost.
Old    Kilo Whiskey (wiltok)      Join Date: Feb 2003       02-11-2004, 11:37 AM Reply   
This thread proves that most non-boat owners have no idea of the costs associated with running a boat. I have had friends out for a whole day that toss me a fin - and wonder why they are never asked back. I personally think Wayne's assesment is conservative - registration fees, permits, upgrades (who doesn't?), props, etc... BOAT = Break Out Another Thousand.
Old    ag4ever            02-11-2004, 1:40 PM Reply   
I have a SAN, and I think the $50/hour is a little high depending on the usage of the boat, and if it is only to cover costs. If it is to make a little cash, then I think the number is a little low.

Assuming you keep the boat on the water running every weekend, and a couple night during the week, you should be able to get 30 billable hours run time (are these billable hour based on the hour meter, or from checkout to check in?).

This would work out to $1500 per month or $18,000 per year. I know that I don't spend that much on my boat, heck I don't think I spend half that on my boat each year.

Those that figure gas into the $50 figure, do you think he would fueling the boat himself after each use? The user would still be required to fill their own tank I bet.

While I agree that the extra costs should be spread between each of the "owners" I doubt the costs would be that much greater for a company boat vs. a consumer boat.

Sure the cost would be cheaper when divided by three, but that is why $50 an hour seems high when the usage is also high. I think a better number would be a set time frame cost with allowed usage in that time frame. I.E. you pay $350 a month, and can use the boat 10 of the 30 days.

BTW, I use my boat about 120 hours a year, and that makes my hourly use cost about $70/hr with fuel.

If I used it 360 hours a year as my example above, it would cost about $30/hr fuel included.

From what it sound like, you want to run a rental company, and not a shared ownership of a boat.
Old    stormrider            02-11-2004, 2:12 PM Reply   
Robert: what did you buy your SANTE for, tax, reg. etc. and what is it worth now? Does Texas have sales tax? What percentage?
Old    wayne_wilson            02-11-2004, 2:23 PM Reply   
Robert - I agree the hourly figure may be a little off. I think the target market for this is somebody who wants to pay an all-in cost of about $300-$350 per month and not have to hassle with the boat too much (i.e., down payment, maintenance, risk associated with owning, etc.) and who want to avoid the fight with their wife over owning a boat!!!

There is a tough balance that needs to be determined on how many hours that much should entitle the leasee to. As much as they want to be an owner, they will not be because of the structure, but they are benefiting from this as well and therefore should not be entitled to all the hours that an owner would want.

The question really comes down to how many hours they should receive on the boat per month for the reduced cost and reduced risk of ownership. There is value in these things, just as there is value in an individual owner being the sole user. The balance comes where you say if you get 10 hours a month then the cost is really $30 -35/hour and you get the equivalent of 120 hours per year. The boat is not completely scalable because maintenance, depreciation and other costs do increase as the hours go up. It seems a little rich to say that you can do it for $30 - 35/hr. Maybe $40 - 45 is the answer.

BTW - I would love to see the math on how you get to $70 per hour for the SAN. Trust me, I will not be running this for much profit, if any at all, I am just trying to get as much information as possible to figure out what the answer is on something that people think is fair. I am looking to have people that care about the boat and appreciate this cost reduction strategy. I am not looking for somebody who wants a SAN so they can put 250 hours/year on it and not have to bear any risk themselves.
Old    whitechocolate            02-11-2004, 4:05 PM Reply   
Keith Said It in his post. "This thread proves that most non-boat owners have no idea of the costs associated with running a boat"

"A-Men brother"
I know I take care of my boat alot better that most people, but theres lots of extra things the owner would have to do to keep his boat looking new. After people were done using it each time. I know when Im finished using my boat after the wipe down at the ramp when your finished you have to do a proper cleaning at home that takes time, are the people that rent it going to do that extra work hell no. It would be the owners problem to keep it cherry and protect his investment.
Im sure if he wanted to buy a SAN and rent it out for as much as he could get per hour and rent it to who ever had cash his boat would be a wreck after 1 year. Im sure that not what he is trying to do,

Wayne: If you told people here your were going to give them $100 dollar bills for free, they would complaine.

The Idea of renting or selling slots of time to people like a time share sounds good.
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       02-11-2004, 4:25 PM Reply   
I may not know what goes into owning a boat, but I do know that for $500/mo., the registration would have my name on it.

Good luck.
Old    RodE (gymboarder)      Join Date: Feb 2003       02-11-2004, 4:40 PM Reply   
I agree with Keith that most people have no idea how much it costs to run and own a boat. Its also my opinion that if you can't afford these additional costs you shouldn't own a boat.
Old    wayne_wilson            02-11-2004, 5:11 PM Reply   
Rod - is what you are saying that if I can not afford those costs on my own I shouldn't own a boat? Where is the credit for coming up with a structure that allows you to disburse the costs amongst participants? If I can come up with a structure and find willing participants than why shouldn't I buy the boat.
Old    simba            02-11-2004, 5:22 PM Reply   
Just to chime in private lessons on a SAN with a X pro TEACHING and driving for you is 50.00 an hour and I dont even have to clean anything, bring drinks, pay for gas, clean the boat and have a excellent driver and a great coach and I can bring as many people as I want at the same price.

I think your price is way off IMO>
Old    stormrider            02-11-2004, 5:22 PM Reply   
Wayne, no need to be defensive. You're the only one with numbers.

Joe, I'd consider paying $500 a month for a new SANTE I didn't own. Here's why: Boat 50k, after tax, 55k. I walk out the door and I've lost at least 7k (the tax money and 2k off the value of the boat since it is now "used".) Before I even put it in the water I have lost, if one year is used, $583/mth. Gas, insurance, blah, blah, blah and my first year's costs are about $700 month. Other way I pay $500, save $200, ride my butt off and leave the owner with figuring out the details. Second year would be better, third more so but then maintenance costs start rising and boat value accelerates downward.

How about this deal, Joe-- you buy the SANTE and I'll pay you $20 a day to ride. Just kidding, but I think you see my point.
Old    wayne_wilson            02-11-2004, 5:41 PM Reply   
Ron,

SERIOUSLY - Where is this lesson? because I should probably just go do that.

WW
Old    David (tparider)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-11-2004, 7:57 PM Reply   
First of all (Grant, Wayne and Keith), just because I don't own a boat doesn't mean that I don't understand the expenses associated with owning one. I think you're insulting and underestimating the intelligence of the average poster on this board (or at least mine).

Next, I fully agree with Joe Umali on this - if I'm dropping $500 a month on something, it's sure as hell going to have my name on it. That's a little too much cash to be (more or less) paying for pulls.

Lastly, for me personally, your calculations on costs are off. They may work for others, but not for me. For instance, although it's a small detail, I'd store the boat in my garage (just $250 a month by your calculations, but worth mentioning nonetheless). I suppose I'm more in agreement with Robert's post above (he did say he owns a SAN already right?) - he mentioned 120 hours a year at $70/hour. That's a little too close to Wayne's rental figure to not justify owning the thing myself.

And Wayne, if you're looking for lessons, you should check into The Boarding School, The Projects, and OWC, all of which have all day rates of $300/day, $200/day, and $180/day respectively. The Boarding School and The Projects offer lessons inclusive of this price. All three have a new SAN.

(Message edited by tparider on February 11, 2004)
Old    wayne_wilson            02-11-2004, 8:44 PM Reply   
David - $500 per month will not get you a SAN.

You might be close to $500 in average monthly cash flows if you assume this scenario.

Assuming $45,000 financed (which is probably low if you are only putting 10% down on a well equipped SAN) at 6.5% for 15 years gets you a monthly payment of $392.00. Plus you put up the $5K that went down on it. Then you have $108.00 per month for insurance, maintenance and storage (only including the expenses I used above). Which comes out to about $1,300 per year. Not bad I will agree.

But we haven't hit depreciation! If you assume your 10% down covers sales tax, license and registration. Roughly speaking your loan amount will equal the price you paid for the boat. If the amount of real depreciation exceeds the principal amount you repay on your boat you are in the whole. In this scenario you only repay principal of $1,833, $1,956 and $2,087 in each of the first three years. If you think after three years you will be able to sell your boat for just $6,000 off what you paid then you might go buy a boat. I almost forgot! and then you have to add back the down payment, another $5K (we won't adjust for its potential investment value for conservatism). So lets see. When you add that to the six, it all of a sudden becomes $1K below what you paid three years later???

I don't think the math works. I am not trying to scam anybody, but I have been working on modeling this stuff out for a while. It is way more expensive than I ever would have thought and it makes me appreciate the guys that pull me.

THANKS CARTER AND RJ!!! AND MY DUTCH FRIEND ROB AND HIS FAMILY!!!!
Old    whazzup (whazzup)      Join Date: Oct 2001       02-11-2004, 8:58 PM Reply   
Hey, whats up Wayne? I dont believe we have ever met because I ride with Carter quite a bit. I'm up at Castaic all the time so if you ever need a pull drop me an email. I have the same exact boat as Carter, minus the smell.
Old    Dan Noonan (depswa)      Join Date: Nov 2000       02-12-2004, 12:03 AM Reply   
Gid:
Wayne is a crappy rider and always hungover and never does anything productive...you don't want him on your boat. He never cleans and doesn't really go that big.







Just Kidding Wayne is the man! How have you been Bro? You definitely gotta come out with us soon! Gid's boat is sick (and doesn't have that smell like Carter's) although last time I rode with them they said it was my Drysuit? I don't think so, although there is some weird sh$t going on smell-wise on their boats.

Gid...tell the wind gods to "knock it off!!!" and we gotta hit up the lake ASAP! We'll get Wayne out there...he's a great guy and fun to watch ride...FEARLESS! He likes to go to Frat parties then ride at 6am, so that's definitely dedication.

Wayne...e-mail me noonand@verizon.net I think I lost your number!

Dan

Oh...and Wayne...how 'bout a spot on your future SAN. I can offer 4 Coors lights/hour! And at least one bad Joke!
Old    whazzup (whazzup)      Join Date: Oct 2001       02-12-2004, 8:34 AM Reply   
Yo Dan! Yeah the wind has been crazy lately. Hopefully we can get out next week.
Old    ag4ever            02-12-2004, 2:58 PM Reply   
I think some of the cost that are mentioned (actual numbers not hourly numbers) are close. I also think there are some numbers taht are being counted twice in some people's posts.

Depereciation is not a cost untill you sell. That does not mean it should not be counted, and if you what to count it each year, only the negative equity should be counted, and the slate wiped clean for the next year. This means that if you are upside down by $3,000 the first year you don't get to count that $3,000 the second year as you have already counted it before. This also means that if you strat getting in the black, you have to "give back" that negative equity.

If you are just looking at the costs of ownership each yaer, and not the initial investment or selling cost, then my quick calculations are fairly accurate.

The biggest thing I was trying to show is that hourly cost will drop sharply as the usage goes up for the same period of time.

If we look at the finances on a monthly basis, I spend about $30/hr during the summer months, and for the last 4 months I hav probably spent $2,000/hr. My cost have not gone up or down that much per month, but the usage is very different.

I also feel that without a $$$BIG$$$ down payment, you will not own a new SANTE or SAN for $500/month.

Heck, with a nice sized down payment, end of year discount, and most "other" costs figured in, I am still north of $750/month for mine.

As an additional bit of info, I would not let anybody use my boat unless I was the one running it. (Except my papa, that always let me run his unsupervised. He is the only person I trust my boat with, and he thinks it has too many gadgets)
Old    Mike (lehmur)      Join Date: Oct 2001       02-12-2004, 3:17 PM Reply   
It seems that the topic has gone in the direction of whether the cost is appropriate.

A bigger question about this situation is how do you fairly allot the windows of time on the boat between owners. Is it worth $500 a month if you can't take the boat out when you want to because someone else might have it? There most likely won't be alot of flexibility in scheduling time.
Old    jordan23            02-12-2004, 4:01 PM Reply   
Longtime reader/First time poster. LOL But I have to chime in.

I think Wayne is right on with $40-$50 a hour for a couple of reasons!

1st- Having owned a boat for many years (I don't anymore) I truly understand like Grant said, everything that comes with owning a boat. i.e. payments, tags, insurance, gas (for the boat and truck), set-up, maintenance, cleaning (detailed), wipe down after each ride and probably the most exspensive part is accidents. i.e. props, scuffs in gel coat, interior, etc.

2nd- After selling my boat to move to cali, I have rented a boat twice down in Mission Bay. It cost me $225.00 for 3 hours, which breaks out to $75.00 per hour. Now that did include 1 wakeboard and 1 pair of skis but still costly.

3rd- Everyone keeps saying if I'm going to pay $500 to rent a boat, I might as well have my name on the title. Well you are forgeting one thing.... That payment last all year long, even when the weather is bad!

Wayne if you decide to do this, please e-mail me, as I would love to have a boat 2-3 times a summer for 5-10 hours each time.

Late
Old    Troy (liveoz)      Join Date: May 2002       02-12-2004, 4:23 PM Reply   
Here is my problem with Wayne's plan. $500.00 a month would be a decent deal if you had unlimited access. Don't forget, That $500.00 only gets you 10 hours. That could be one day a month in the summer and only two or three days a month in the winter. Too much for too little. For that kind of money, anyone could buy a two or three year old boat and have access all day everyday. My $.02.

Since you guys already hijacked the site, Dan if you are up for Saturday or Sunday anytime let me know.

Old    Bill Montanye (bill)      Join Date: Feb 2001       02-12-2004, 4:40 PM Reply   
i got a number reading headache from these posts but from what ive read Wayne your asking way too much and offering way to little in return. Some of these posters are right on when saying maybe split the boat equally and ask for a little less per hour..id say 30 per hour might be fair and they could use the boat when your not with proper advanced notification.they also would agree that the deals off if they dont bring the boat back clean,full of gas,and no damage done to it each time...

Ok that said for $60 dollars and hour i can take lessons from a local Pro on his heavily weighted boat annd get at least two sets with instruction..i would take that deal over yours..

BTW most of my crew or riders i invite hand me about ten dollars each for normal days maybe 15 for a road trip or extended day.. it hought that was fair but reading these posts i should as for a bit more this year..
Hell i provide a huge wake(more gas) on a big comfortable boat(still more gas and plush for them) in a hot 11 month a year riding season..they owe me more !! :-)

im going to send them the bill with interest for back rides and tell them it was WW idea :-)
Old    jordan23            02-12-2004, 4:48 PM Reply   
Troy & Bill good points! However, I still think it's not that bad of deal considering. Wayne would be assuming all the risk of owning a $50+k boat. I would only want to have it available once a month maybe during summer and maybe once over the winter. I guess because I travel 50-75% this doesn't sound like a bad deal. No boat to pay for while I'm gone. No storing, I could keep going. I guess if I was in the position to be at home everyone weekend, I would buy instead. Anyways, this is just my $.02.

Old    stormrider            02-12-2004, 5:16 PM Reply   
What these numbers show me is that it pays to be a non-owning third. Show up, board in hand, get on somebody else's boat, ride for an hour to an hour and a half then pay 10-20 and go home.

The boat owner gets to take time off work to pick the boat up for maintenance from the dealer the night before, get up early to load the boat, trailer it, launch it, fill the sacks then take the boat home, put the tower down, and store everything. The owner also gets to take money out of his or her pocket to make up for the difference between the $10-20 the rider pays and what the boat actually costs! And, on top of it all, since the entry cost to ride is so ridiculously cheap (10-20), we now have 2 or 3 times the number of boats on the same piece of water which means when the boat owner finally gets up from behind the wheel to take their turn the water will probably be crap.

Now I know why some people park their boats and ride with others.

Look, if a boat owner wants to subsidize others, out of friendship, or whatever, fine. Don't get me wrong. Just realize who is paying the bill.

(Message edited by stormrider on February 12, 2004)
Old    ag4ever            02-13-2004, 9:22 AM Reply   
A gree with what most have said.

I lokk at it this way:

If you "rent" the boat, and don't have a fixed monthly income on it, $50-70/hr is great.

If you are going into a partnership, then the $/hr argument does not really work. You should be paying an equal amount based on the time each partner has control of the boat.

I also think that if you are buying a boat only so you can have a ride, you are in for a big shock when the money comes into the picture.

My wife and I did not buy our boat to pul others, nor did we get it so we could pull each other when ever we wanted. We bought it because I grew up in a family that ALWAYS had a boat, and I wanted to be able to go on the water when I wanted to and whithout scheduling it first with others. I would say 75% of my time on the water is either idle with the engine off or just cruising.

If you just need a boat, and can't swing a parnership, I would suggest a used boat.

If you are trying to start a business and rent the boat, keep in mind you will most likely not have use of the boat when you want to. If you want to go boarding, most likely the boat will be rented due to good conditions.
Old    simba            02-13-2004, 11:28 AM Reply   
Hey wayne, heres the link and you can ride on a brand new X-star or SAN http://www.xcampflorida.com/

Maybe you SHOULD just do that ehh?

Your way off the rocker on this one wayne, 50 and hour is HIGH WAY ROBBERY for "leasing/partnership"

I Have owned boats for years, yes I know they are expensive but if you cant afford it, buy something less expensive you can afford.

Partnerships with boats is nothing but asking for trouble because so much can go wrong so fast and everyones pointing fingers.

Ok lets say you DO a partnership like you said though why would you charge 50.00 an hour? Why not half the payment, half the insurance, and say +50 bucks for maintaining it? that would come up to say roughly ..................400.00 a month and have access to the boat around 370 hours a month which comes out to a littl more than a dollar an hour+ gas.


Now, if your trying to get RICH of this, which it sounds like you are I suggest you buy a few boats and RENT THEM (key word there) for 50-60 an hour.

You see, the differnce is when you RENT something nobody is obligated for any certain amount of time but when you LEASE or PARTNERSHIP a boat you are obligated.

Again, I suggest you just contact that number and rent it yourself for 50 bucks an hour though and get the gas free, the drinks free, the snacks free, a excellent driver, and a pro teaching you.

And, because you probably cant ride for say 4 hours straight get a friend who wants to go and split the bill and now you at only 25.00 an hour FOR A BRAND NEW XSTAR, PRO TEACHER/DRIVER, FREE GAS, FREE SNACKS, anytime you want for as long as you want and nobody will be on the boat except for who YOU WANT On it. how about that!



(Message edited by simba on February 13, 2004)
Old    stormrider            02-13-2004, 12:08 PM Reply   
Ron:

Do you have any evidence/analysis that Wayne's numbers are wrong? Like many in the financial world, I am not persuaded by anecdotal evidence. I can't be persuaded by anecdotal evidence or nobody'd hire me! Through ignorance many business people charge less than it costs to keep their businesses afloat. That or, perhaps, the Florida outfit gets the boat for free or at a greatly decreased cost because of a promotional deal with CC or MC so we're not comparing apples with apples.

Ron, you may be right but so far I haven't seen the figures to prove it.
Old    aka Brad Beach            02-13-2004, 12:37 PM Reply   
WOW you people need more friends! Even if I didn't own my own boat (which I do and its payed for) I could probably still get as much time as I do now on the water... All this renting a boat business sounds ridiculous... For $500 a month I could buy a BRAND NEW BOAT and have money left over for lunch!
Old    simba            02-13-2004, 12:46 PM Reply   
Steve, numbers to prove it are u kidding me? A parntership is HALF of COST. So........Split the payment in HALF split the insurance in HALF split all mantaining costs in half. Then.... You dont have to worry about charging by the hour.

payments on 50k is 421 a month, insurance probably 500-600 a year plus upkeep like changing oil ect well put at 50 a month.

So you are looking at around 260 bucks a month. Dont put any money down buying it and dont sell it till its paid for so now you dont have to worry about depreciation. Theres your numbers.
Old    stormrider            02-13-2004, 12:59 PM Reply   
Ron: okay, that is one analysis. But it's slightly different than what Wayne is getting at. With Wayne, you need not agree to stay in for the full 15 years as under your proposal. I am asking this rhetorically, don't feel the need to respond, what would you pay for the right to use the boat for a 1 year, 2 year or 3 year period with the right to withdraw from the LLC after that period of time? With Wayne, he's also getting the loan and he's responsible for it. I'd pay more, as the owner would be assuming more risk.

But I'm gonna become a mooch now since they have the deal here in SoCal so it's all academic!

And for all my SoCal friends who are monitoring this thread, when I say I know people who park and ride, I'm not singling anybody out. A number of the people I ride with have boats. Me for one.
Old    Keith (rkg)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-13-2004, 1:14 PM Reply   
Couple of comments:
Actually, a partnership could be set up with different percentage ownership not 50/50 always.

The question of using the boat as a business means you would have to claim income offset by expenses. Doing this would make it a business, would that the invalidate the boat warranty?
Old    stormrider            02-13-2004, 1:16 PM Reply   
Excellent question. And would the insurance cost more? Probably.

Man, having that warranty go "poof" would be an ugly surprise.
Old    simba            02-13-2004, 7:49 PM Reply   
steve, its just not a smart decision to buy a brand new boat planning to get rid of it in 1-3 years, you lose too much money. Sure it can happen but if that happens something usually has went way wrong in the first place.

Yes, he would assume more risk and hey, who says he cant charge a little more.My rough figures came to 260 bucks a month so lets say he charges 350.00 a month which would probably even cover depreciation of the boat over a 5-6 year period.

350.00 a month for unlimited usage though (well time split between the two but not hourly) well HOURLY thats only 7 hours on a boat. Thats ONE DAY A MONTH. I go 2-4 times a week during the summer and 1 time a week in the winter for 3-10 hours a day each trip.

The thing is, the whole IDea is a bad idea IMO unless you are infact "renting" the boat out which then he would be right on the money at the 50-60 a hour but then you have people with the attitude its not my boat and not taking care of it.

I still think, if you cant comfortably afford it on your own, buy used or a less expensive model. Saves on all the headaches ect.
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-13-2004, 7:55 PM Reply   
i'll preface this by saying i don't own a boat, never have and probably never will (for various reasons, not just financial), and i completely appreciate that i am not fully aware of the hidden costs of ownership of a boat.

that said, im seeing a lot about the burden of ownership in this thread - but what about the benefits?

as a third, i don't determine when i ride. that's up to those who graciously take me out. i can't really plan on it for any particular day. i don't get to decide anything from where i want to ride and who to bring along (or not bring along as the case may be), down to what music is played on the stereo. i only have the option of turning down an offer. so there are definite benefits to ownership that the third doesn't share in.

granted, boats (at least when used for skiing/wakeboarding, etc.), are an unusual sitation in that the law requires you to find two other folks to indulge in your hobby. but ultimately, it feels disingenuous to me to purchase a boat and then complain that those who help you actually use it (whom you can't do without), aren't paying their share, whatever that may be.

i know this won't make me popular - but when you buy a boat, aren't you basically assuming the costs of that ownership? if you have a wife/girlfriend that can drive and an over-12 child to flag, both of whom don't want to ride and will sit on the boat while you do, then sit around and wait for another 1/2 hour while you catch your breath and then go again, great. but short of that, isn't part of buying a boat to be able to wakeboard require acknowledging that you may have to subsidize the riding of others so you can enjoy your boat?

obviously im not suggesting that anyone should mooch and NOT contribute to gas costs, help with the load-in and out, clean up, etc. but in the end, isn't the boat owner ultimately responsibile for their decision to own a boat?

another activity im involved with that seems similar is music.

i've had a band. because i wanted the band to exist, because it played my music, i paid for everything. i had a bass player, a drummer and a guitarist in addition to myself. did they get to have fun, play clubs and jam together and generally enjoy doing something they love and would do anyways? of course. did i fund everything? yes. i paid for the rehersal studio, the recording equipment, etc. i also "paid" in the hidden ways. i organized everyone. i spent countless hours preparing the charts for them, arranging gigs, making up flyers, sending out emails, writing the songs, etc.

i did all this, because i wanted to. i couldn't do it alone, and they shared in the fun of it all, but ultimately it was all my idea and my responsibility.

the decision to buy and own a boat seems very similar to me.

for those of you that are owners, did this discussion factor into your decision? did you figure for the most part you'd be covering all the costs, or did you assume most of the folks you would be riding with would contribute?

as those who i've ridden with can testify to - i give gas money, help in any way i can, etc. i hope they all feel im grateful enough to them for giving me the priviledge of enjoying their boat with them. i mean no disrespect by saying all this, i just hope to learn more how people view this topic, and perhaps give the perspective of a mooch. :-)
Old    simba            02-13-2004, 9:14 PM Reply   
Chris, a "mooch" doesnt pay their way or bring drinks or help clean the boat. I have brought people that dont even pitch in for gas and when I tell them to pitch in, they kick out 5 bucks (serious).

They dont go anymore either. Your right about family except for my whole family rides which consists of a 11 year old girl and a 4 year old girl and a wife. They all take turns and cant wait to go again.

Now, I dont take my girls when my wife doesnt go because I dont want whoevers driving to be responsible for "babysitting" while im riding. Hence something happen to one while im out there Id be pissed so I dont even ask anyone to take that responsibility.

So, point is, people like you become essential to people like me. I have one guy who just cant WAIT to go anytime, anywhere. He pays for his gas, his food, his drink. SO, basicly anytime I go, he goes. I searched hard and long for someone like this (believe me it was hard to find) infact, I didnt find him, I kinda made him.

I took him a bunch of times "free" and got him hooked and addicted then told him he has to pay his own way which by then, he had no problem.

IF he had his own boat, I'd be screwed with nobody to go with reliable on a regular basis so its good to have people like YOU.

Wakeboarding is VERY expensive but its like a vacation to me and my family every weekend and everyone loves it. How many things in life can you do on a regular basis that the WHOLE family LOVES. Its worth every dime for someone like me. Now I have a boy in the oven finally and makes my boat payment that much more worth it!

I dont blame people for not wanting a boat payment though and by all means us boat owners need responsible reliable "riders"
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-13-2004, 10:07 PM Reply   
lol ron, that's great. the 'ole pusher trick, "the first one's free..." :-)
Old    nooner            02-14-2004, 9:12 AM Reply   
I have seen Jet ski rentals here starting at $35 per hour. I think $50 is definetly fair. The only time the customer would pay it is when he needed to wakeboard. The owner still pays for the boat even if its winter or too crappy out to wakeboard. I would never lease my boat out. It would get fudged up really fast that way.
Old    stormrider            02-15-2004, 12:57 PM Reply   
Hey, Chris, "isn't part of buying a boat to be able to wakeboard require acknowledging that you may have to subsidize the riding of others so you can ride?"

Here's my analysis: It cost me @ $60/hr to run my boat this year. All I can go on are this years numbers. Might next year be less? Maybe-- but then if I smoke a motor sucking up the ash on San V or if I rip out the prop and shaft hitting a rock at the river, my hourly cost might be more.

Bottom line, and then I'll discuss: it costs me less to use my employee to sit on the boat than to take out a third. Here's how it works: my employee is $10/hr. He takes the boat to the lake, launches it, loads the fat sacs, etc. I show up about an hour after he leaves the house. I ride, twice, Christian rides twice (3 hours), then I leave and the employee reverses the process. Total cost to me for the employee: $50.

If I take a 3rd out and they ride for 1.5 hours and pay me $20, then it costs me $90 and I recouped $20, so I lost $70, $20 more than using my employee.

And, with a third, I am launching the boat AND driving for their 1.5 which means I'm not at my office making $100/hr gross. I'm $170 back.

The current third structure also makes no riding sense: If there are 4 boat owners, and they look to each other for their "crew" and they each pay enough to reimburse the owner for that day's cost of operation, then, in addition to 4 boat owners not losing money, there is only 1 boat on the water. With all four boats pulling "subsidized" thirds, you have each boat owner losing money and 4x as many boats-- which in Socal matters, as you know.

This is why I never pull thirds during the work week, or rarely, but the weekends, as Chris knows, is different.

Chris, your thoughts? BTW, how're the ribs?
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-16-2004, 7:03 PM Reply   
thanks for responding steven! this was exactly the kind of information/perspective i wanted to discover. i never would have thought about this from those angles.

the ribs are o.k. rode three times last week (first time in 6 weeks saturday 2/7). i felt a bit more sore after each time out - need to give them a bit more time to rest in between rides for now. basically fine tho. thanks for asking!


so as to my thoughts...

first, like i said above, thanks for contributing this. i really wouldn't have come up with the perspective you have. thats whats so helpful about discussions like this - i learn so much.

you make an excellent argument for both using an employee and for the four boat owners working together. honestly i'd forgotten you had an employee and i never thought about how folks might work together not only to reduce costs that way, but also to reduce the amount of boat traffic. it does seem tho that this example is tailor made for an individual such as your self (and obviously works very well for you), but in general might not be such an obvious benefit for others, especially if the way the hourly rate is calculated is contested.


although we've already abundantly discussed this (the hourly rate), your calculations made me realize something. the main problem i have with this argument is exactly that - the way the hourly cost is determined.

you're getting this rate by dividing by the amount of hours on your boat, which are arbitrary, into fixed costs like the price of the boat. yet the price of the boat and some other associated costs are the same regardless of the amount of hours put on the boat or who puts those hours on it (original price, storage, need for a tow vehicle, insurance, etc).

so one could argue (tho spuriously), that using your methodology it makes more sense to utilize a third, since it puts more hours on the boat and thus lowers the hourly operating rate. in essence, you're getting more bang for your buck (well, SOMEone is). :-)

so to compare the cost of taking out a third by factoring those costs in, in addition to using an hourly rate calculated with an hours total that was arrived at by NOT using a third (you use an employee, which lowers the amount of hours on the boat since he/she doesn't ride, and thus elevates the per hour cost), seems inaccurate.

i'll leave out your missing work factor, as for most people that probably doesn't apply (they ride when they're off work or don't charge by the hour).

in other words, 2nds and 3rds only contribute to the actual additional running cost of owning a boat - so why should they subsidize the actual ownership of a boat?


after all that, it seems the only fair comparison is between "running" costs; i.e., any additional cost that is accrued by having another rider other than oneself. any and all other costs would exist regardless.

so, correct me if im wrong, but this would basically mean gas, oil and average hourly "wear and tear" cost on the boat. and since many people don't have a son to bring riding with them, lets compare a 2nd/3rd with two employees...which might look like this:

3 riders
hours on boat (1.5 per): 4.5
fixed costs: none

vs

1 rider, 2 employees
hours on boat (1.5 per): 2.0 (.5 for rest)
fixed costs:
2 employees @10/hr for 2hrs= $40*
fixed costs alternate:
1 employee @10/hr for 4hrs= $40
1 employee @10/hr for 2hrs=$20**
* this assumes the "employees" are just place-holders for the 2nd/3rd. these employees don't help out with any duties before or after the riding.
** this assumes one place-holder employee and one for boat set-up/clean-up in addition to place-holding


so, if C equals the hourly cost of running the boat, the following formula might apply:

[2nd/3rd] (C*4.5hr)-($30) vs [employee] (C*2hr)+$40

or the alternate employee version:

[2nd/3rd] (C*4.5hr)-($30) vs [employee] (C*2hr)+$60

of course, this assumes a few things:
- 3 pulls in 1.5hrs. i usually ride 20-30mins with my friends and i think this is more the norm than 45mins per pull.

- the two riders give $15 each for the day (thus the -$30). i've heard a vague standard of $5/pull on wakeworld.

putting in some numbers, we get paths that look like this:

chart

the breakeven point with two place-holder employees seems to be around $30/hr. i have no idea what a realistic gas/oil/wear cost per hour might be.
Old    stormrider            02-17-2004, 6:23 PM Reply   
Running cost; that should probably be the minimum number since it is only covering the actual economic outlay.

Factors: gas/oil, etc./share of maintenance and depreciation. A nicely ballasted boat consumes, what, $10/hr in gas? So figure $12 for a total. Next factor, depreciation: How much is an 02 Moomba with 100 hours on it worth compared to an 02 with 200 hours? 1.5k sound about right? $15/hr. $27/hr. for running time. Matches up with your cross-over point.

Market might require a 3rd to pay more. Not now. More boat owners than 3rds much of the time.

Nice analysis, by the way. Not too late for an MBA or law school. The legal/business and accounting professions can always use minds that think like yours!
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-17-2004, 7:06 PM Reply   
you're more than gracious steven. i think i actually hurt something creating that post! :-)
Old    Hate2party (slipknot)      Join Date: Aug 2001       02-17-2004, 7:07 PM Reply   
just buy it already

it's simple really, if you cant afford it, dont buy it
Old    wayne_wilson            02-18-2004, 10:51 AM Reply   
Let's ask a more simple question. Uh oh!!! Here it goes again...

How many hours would you expect in a year if you were asked to pay $300 or 250 per month($3600 - 3000 per year)????


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