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Old     (tdeneka)      Join Date: Aug 2002       09-22-2003, 11:48 AM Reply   
I have been trying back rolls occasionally lately. I am getting a full rotation, but it is more of a flip (end over end) than a normal back roll which sort of starts like a flip, but is a roll from middle to landing. If you can't visualise what I am doing, I am keeping my chest and ts edge toward the boat through the whole trick instead of pointing the tip at the boat mid flip. I have tantrums pretty much dialed in now, so I want to start really working on the back roll, but don't want this bad form to get too badly ingrained!!! I will try to post video up tonight. Thanks for any help!
Old     (tdeneka)      Join Date: Aug 2002       09-23-2003, 10:17 AM Reply   
Here is the link

This is not my best attempt, but it is a good example of my ugly form. I already know that I am throwing it too early, I am more concerned right now with body/board orientation once I'm up (although maybe this is made worse by my starting early???)
Old     (mvda)      Join Date: Dec 2002       09-23-2003, 12:31 PM Reply   
Your form is really pretty good. You are just coming up short. A backroll is much like a cartwheel or a side flip- which is what you're doing. I don't know where you got the idea that pointing the tip at the boat mid flip was a good idea, because it's not. You are dropping your butt a bit through the top of the wake. Keeping your hips up (knees still bent) will give you better leverage as you carve the board up through the top of the wake. This will generate better height and rotation. You are almost there. Focus less on speed at the wake and more on edging up through the top of the wake. Once you get full rotation, you will have a nice back roll.
Old                09-23-2003, 4:30 PM Reply   
Id sure like to know the answer to this since this is how the 100 or so Ive thrown look!! I dive the nose everytime just like him! looks the EXACT SAME lol .
Old     (tdeneka)      Join Date: Aug 2002       09-24-2003, 6:45 AM Reply   
Matt, thanks for the comments. Regarding the "tip toward the boat" thing. I see this in most instructional videos and picture sequences. Even the instructional on this site does this. Here are some links:

Old     (mvda)      Join Date: Dec 2002       09-24-2003, 8:12 AM Reply   
Ok, I see where you're getting the idea, however, I would still forget about it. I'm afraid your gonna start doing Mexican's if you work on that. Of the articles, McLin's had the best point for you to pay attention to...
"Start by cutting out about 15 feet. If you require a longer cut than 15 feet to do the trick, then your progressive edging still needs some work. You can improve in this area by working on shorter approaches to your wake jumps while concentrating on a nice progressive edge."

Right now, you are riding rather flat up the wake. You have 23 mph of water passing beneath you. The force of your board's edge against the 23 mph of water is what will generate your height and rotation. Do not think of this as hucking a flip. Think of it as carving your board up through the top of the wake so that the water passing beneath you throws your board up and around your body. Your handle is the pivot point, so keep it in tight to your middle.
Old                09-25-2003, 11:34 AM Reply   
Your backrolls are nice thomas, its good that youre not throwing mexican rolls...(which i commonly do) It looks to me like you're throwing the flip too early. Focus on popping, and when you are completely off the wake, throw the roll.....this is what helped me
Old     (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       09-25-2003, 2:49 PM Reply   
i really don't understand why people think so negatively about mexican style backrolls. apart from the fact that i think they look better actually than regular backrolls (especially from the side or when grabbed indy), it's the rotation used for backrolls to blind, double back rolls, etc.

i have always thought regular backrolls look ugly. i think they look sweet if grabbed well (like murray's nosegrabbed backroll or ruck's mute mobe), but just normally i've never liked the look of them.

don't get me wrong, i enjoy doing them but it always cracks me up when people say "at least you aren't doing them mexican..."
Old                09-25-2003, 5:22 PM Reply   
Chris, be nice!!!! One man's Mexican is another persons fashion air, or something like that.
Old     (tdeneka)      Join Date: Aug 2002       09-26-2003, 5:45 AM Reply   
It's the fault of whoever named the tricks originally.

HS Back roll (not mexican) is really a back flip (end over end)
Mexican backroll is really a hs frontroll (sort of, as it is edge over edge, opposite rotation from tantrum)
Tantrum is really a hs backroll (edge over edge)

(I know this is a contraversial subject, but the inconsistency is rather annoying)

And a fashion air is, well, a fashion air.

(Message edited by tdeneka on September 26, 2003)
Old                09-26-2003, 8:36 AM Reply   
Its not the fact that I think there is anything wrong with Mexican rolls....its the fact that it will ruin your form if you want to start grabbing you backroll...and plus its just NOT a backroll
Old                09-27-2003, 7:42 AM Reply   
There are a few things I noticed that may be of help.
You do not have enough pop off the wake. when you look at the vid, your shoulders never go any higher than they are at the dish of the wake, so air-wise you are only going up about 3-4 feet.
Your cut looks like a tantrum cut. really deep right off the bat, and backing off a bit at the wake. You need to slow down on your initial cut, and hold your edge as you stand up at the wake.
watch your back leg as you come up the wake. it is bent at 90 degrees until you come off the wake, then it straightens. all of your lift is from your front leg.
The rotation created by your front leg is enough to get you all the way around if you had enough pop. You will get more pop by holding your edge and getting that back leg to stay strong and provide lift. try not to bend your knees so much on approach.
One last thing. I cannot see the rope on this clip. make sure it stays tight for the whole trick.
Old     (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       09-29-2003, 7:54 PM Reply   
The main difference between your flip and the video links is that you are doing a cartwheel - the board is directly above you at the midpoint - whereas the pros actually have the board more trailing them. The pros spin like a helicopter, you spin like a prop plane.


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