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Old     (sdrider)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-21-2003, 6:14 PM Reply   
Alas, this enormous lake that has the capacity to hold as much water as Lake Havasu, will not ever accept recreation that involves water contact. The reason being that as we all know, anytime humans have contact that water has to be thrown down the sewer lines as it is too contaminated to filter for further use!!
The daily news is filled with stories of contaminated water finding its way into homes from the lakes that are currently open to water contact.
If you want to torture yourself, take a glimpse of one pristine area of this reservoir on this link.
With the strong chance that Castaic will close, where will those boaters go? As the population in So Cal continues to grow as well as more and more people taking up boating; has anyone heard of even 1 more public lake opening up for water contact recreation in the last 5-10 years?

Many don't want to go in salt water and many don't want to make the drive to the river so options are limited and becoming more crowded and zoo-like on the weekends.

Diamond Valley Lake is big enough to have separated areas for fishing, sailing, wakeboarding, skiing etc. These diverse groups could keep out of each others way which would go a long way in keeping the peace. Just put me down as another frustrated wakeboarder that was holding out hope that somehow, someway we might get one more place to ride. Notice that the fishermen just gained another nice fishery. Ahhhh, the fishermen, if only we had their connections and clout. All those hundreds of acres of water that will never be ridden....
Old     (sdboardr99)      Join Date: Aug 2001       08-21-2003, 7:00 PM Reply   
Yep, another win for the environmentalists. They were successful in their scare tactics campaign designed to prevent water contact and almost successful in getting all motor boats banned. They want this huge lake to be reserved for canoeing and kayaking and birdwatching, even though several million dollars in taxpayers money was used to build boat ramps. When the lake was first proposed they included all forms of recreation including houseboats.

Now that a decision has been made it will be incredibly difficult to overturn. It would take a huge coordinated effort from all of the potential lake users - wakeboarders, skiers, tubers, etc. - and I doubt that will happen.

The enviromentalists acted and the only fishermen reacted, so this is what we are stuck with.
Old     (slipknot)      Join Date: Aug 2001       08-21-2003, 7:50 PM Reply   
yea i called the phone number in the paper, what a joke, closed to all but its a giant they always say "only in california".

how about opening san v for the winter...? not a chance kids..

how can we protest at the closing on the weekends this fall.
Old     (socalwakepunk)      Join Date: Dec 2002       08-21-2003, 8:18 PM Reply   
I'm in! How 'bout it, Dave? How many riders do you suppose we could get together to raise awareness of this problem here in So Cal? Not only at Diamond Valley, but also for San V, and Castaic.
Old     (socalwakepunk)      Join Date: Dec 2002       08-21-2003, 8:21 PM Reply   
Also, here's some irony - They (water district) are draining water off of Canyon Lake for municipal use. This water is o.k. to play in and still drink, but D.V. is off limits? Someone please explain the logic to me!!!
Old     (got_river)      Join Date: Jul 2002       08-21-2003, 9:32 PM Reply   
I could have a boat in the water inside of 10 minutes from my home in Temecula. Very frustrating that we can't use it. Like Jeff, I need it explained to me why all our other water sources permit water contact, but at DV it would be bad.

In the early 90's I remember seeing ads and articles with all the wonderful facilities that would be available to So Cal if only we would kick in the tax payer support to get the dams/reservoir built. Seems like as soon as it was built, the sales pitch to potential users disappeared.

Is there anything that can be done? Is it a fight that can be won?

Old     (kristian)      Join Date: Nov 2002       08-21-2003, 10:38 PM Reply   
I swear these people have no sense of common logic!!!!

Side Note: Mike nice profile pic, very artistic.
Old     (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       08-22-2003, 12:38 AM Reply   
Been there, done that. I found that it's pretty hard to find people that are willing to put a lot of time into gaining access to the waterways in So Cal.

That's probably the reason that stuff like this happens; the fisherman and environmentalists are a lot more passionate about their causes than wakeboarders. Unfortunately, it might take the removal of all water access to wake (no pun intended) people up. Sad, but true.
Old     (sdboardr99)      Join Date: Aug 2001       08-22-2003, 2:10 AM Reply   
One big irony is that much of the water used to fill that reservoir comes from the Colorado River so there has already been enough bodily contact to thoroughly contaminate it.
Old     (salmon_tacos)      Join Date: Jan 2003       08-22-2003, 8:53 AM Reply   
Check out some of the rules on that link. Speed limits? Noise limits? Only non-modified OEM engines? You can't tell me these are for environmental reasons. Also, it's not like the lake will be very crowded with no swimming allowed.

So the no body contact rule gets rid of swimmers, boarders, skiers, etc. Then all the fishermen had left were the hot boaters?

Well, now they're gone too with those carefully targeted rules. Is the fishing lobby unstoppable? Maybe you guys could get the oil lobby on your side...wakeboats use a lot of gas?
Old    stormrider            08-22-2003, 8:57 AM Reply   
One key to stopping this madness: stop electing democrats. But then again, the mantra of the democrats is always "elect us to stop the religious right from taking over" and people fall for this. Well, the DV nonsense is the price you pay.
I'm helped because I feel like I understand what makes hyper-environmentalists tick: it's their religion. They like power and they like control. They like feeling better than others, more righteous and more englightened. They see themselves as having "the truth" and "the only way" and the rest of us are the "unwashed masses" and they get-off on this. Their belief system tells them that "any human contact with water is evil." (Like religionists, they divide things into good and evil.) This belief then becomes dogma when the science doesn't support them. Their goal in life is to "save" us.

They can be stopped, and pretty easily because they are a paper tiger. First, recall Davis and do not elect Bustamante-- who will have to kowtow to the environmentalists since they form a big chunk of his power base and he likes power. Second, we need to raise money and hire lawyers. Courts have incredible power and environmentalists get most of what they want by bluffing. We need a legal team in place to call their bluffs and use the law to protect our rights. Third, we need to elect responsible leaders. This has to be a concerted effort: wake industry, boat mfgs., dealers, riders, waterski folks, even the pwc crowd.

Unfortunately, Dave's right, the wake crowd likes to bitch but they won't put their money where their mouth is. Sorry!! I'd be happy to be proved wrong!!!
Old     (socalwakepunk)      Join Date: Dec 2002       08-22-2003, 9:10 AM Reply   
You know any good lawyers, Steven?
Old    stormrider            08-22-2003, 9:22 AM Reply   
Hey, Jeff: I'm a transactional lawyer, a tax specialist. I structure estates and businesses, primarily from a tax perspective. There's a courthouse a block from my firm; I've been there twice in the six years it's been open. If you've been in a courthouse in the last 6 months, you've been there more than me. IOW, I have no financial stake. In fact, fighting this will cost me money.

I do know how the system works, though. The system I describe is the exact same one used by the environmentalists-- and, as we know, it has proved very beneficial to their interests.

On a serious note, Paul Smith would be an excellent person to either head the damn thing or further refine it because he is a litigator. The organization raises money, Paul oversees or provides direction, etc- and he gets paid. We have the pieces. We have money. We have interests. We're type A people who like to "fix things."

But we can't do this for free. We need to raise money; the boat mfgs should be willing, at a minimum. Then we need to set up a 501c3 (I can help here-- for free or next to nothing.) And we need to hire a point person to start putting everything else in place. We'd need about 100k to start-- the cost of 1X-2 and 1San!

Or, we can sit around and complain-- and that is not my nature. IOW, I'm in and I'll put a grand toward the project. Our legal rights, unfortunately, are not self-executing. We have to fight for them sometimes, or become the victims of those who are willing to fight for their world view.
Old     (got_river)      Join Date: Jul 2002       08-22-2003, 1:38 PM Reply   

I am willing to help in any way I can.

If you are interested, email me and let's see what we can do.

Old    stormrider            08-22-2003, 1:46 PM Reply   
Hey, Josh:
Let's see how much more interest there is.

This situation is very similar to the closing of the dunes near Glammis. The recreational industry, including the manufacturers, clubs, user groups and individuals did organize enough to do something, but I don't know what the outcome was.

Key is there has to be broad support from a number of committed individuals, companies and user groups. There may already be a group like we envisioned organized or organizing, in which case we could join forces with them.

This thread is a start, a sort of trial balloon for measuring how much interest there is. Hopefully a number of people will step forward and say they'll contribute cash or time. We'll see.

If anybody's got information on what, if anything, the boating industry (dealers, mfgs., etc.) are doing, I'd appreciate it if you would bring me up to speed. Or if any politicians are involved.
Old     (sdboardr99)      Join Date: Aug 2001       08-22-2003, 1:56 PM Reply   
Salmon Tacos, you need to do a little research to fully understand the problem at Diamond Valley. The fishermen did not cause this problem the environmentalists did. At one point the decision was made to not allow any motorized boats on the lake and no shore fishing. That's when the fishing lobby got involved and was effective in getting that decision changed but with strict rules. You have to have your boat inspected before it is allowed on the lake for example. Only newer direct-injected 2-stroke engines that pass the strict California emissions limits.

And yes, the noise limits are the result of environmentalists too - they want a peaceful and serene place for birdwatching (seriously). Since they didn't get their way regarding banning all motor boats, they pushed for strict limits on noise levels even though the lake is HUGE and surrounded by nothing but empty hills.

These decisions were made by the agency that runs the lake, the Metropolitan Water District. This is the same agency that has failed to sign a new agreement regarding allocation of water from the Colorado River. It's so bad the guy in charge of the agreement for the Bush administration says that "California is my favorite reality show". It looks like local agencies may just end up going around the MWD. Here is a good article about it:

Old    corey_marotta            08-22-2003, 2:10 PM Reply   
All the Southern California boat dealerships should go to their manufactures for support in raising money for a venture like this. If the trend continues and worst-case sinareo happens, there really will be nowhere to ride or ski anymore. Boat sales would be directly affected by this and accentually hurt the manufactures.

Basically they would be investing into something that would increase boat sales and protect their dealers from possibly going under if it gets that bad.
Old     (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       08-22-2003, 4:10 PM Reply   
Corey has a good point. If I was a manufacturer and I looked at the size of that lake I would have dollar signs in my eyes. Think of how many boats they could sell through their Riverside dealers if that lake were opened to water contact.

Also, there is a division of USA Water Ski that specializes in this kind of thing and they may be able to help. Check out this link:
Old     (socalwakepunk)      Join Date: Dec 2002       08-22-2003, 4:28 PM Reply   
I'd be willing to work on this (may have to wait until after our last tournment at the end of October).

Additionally, how about we pitch this to a few wakeboard friendly bands (Blink, Depswa, ???) to hold a fund raising concert. Get one of the local radio stations in on it, and someone to promote it, and we could stand to raise quite a few dollars for the cause. If it's big enough, hold it someplace like the Irvine Amp., seats over 15,000, and at $10-15 net from ea. ticket for the cause, you do the math.
Here at Canyon Lake, Bill Medley (Rightious Bros fame) held a benefit dinner concert on behalf of the wakeboard club, and raised $25,000, after paying for all the expenses, in one night to build a playground.

(Message edited by socalwakepunk on August 22, 2003)
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-22-2003, 4:45 PM Reply   
I'll be happy to help... I'm not in SoCal but I can see this eventually taking over California.

Old     (sae4life)      Join Date: Mar 2003       08-22-2003, 6:25 PM Reply   
I'm in... i would like the option of not having to go all the way out to the river just to board for the day!!!
Old     (sdboardr99)      Join Date: Aug 2001       08-22-2003, 7:12 PM Reply   
Steve, the fight to reopen Glamis is not finished. The group that was formed to fight the closures, the American Sand Association (ASA), raised money to complete a scientific survey of the endangered plant and then filed suit to have the plant removed from the endangered species list (over 100,000 plants were found). But of course the environmentalists would never admit that the plant is doing just fine and are taking the BLM back to court to try to fight the new management plan.

So if you decide to take on this fight for access to Diamond Valley (and maybe other lakes) just be prepared for a long hard battle.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-22-2003, 9:38 PM Reply   
Here ya go, straight from the EPA website.

What are sources of recreational water pollution?
EPA asks survey respondents to identify the sources of pollution that cause advisories or closings. Without precise information, respondents use their best judgment to identify sources. In more than half the cases, the source is unknown (Exhibit 2-9). The most frequently identified source is storm water runoff that contains harmful contaminants such as bacteria from livestock or pet waste, inadequate sewage treatment, or poorly designed or operated septic systems.36

and.. exhibit 2-9:

Although 52% is unknown, it appears based on their research, closing recreational waterways will improve water quality by 2%!
A large part of the pollutants are uncontrollable and the closing of the lake will do next to nothing to promote cleaner water.

Special interest groups need to be stopped. Most often it's the minority that controlling the majority. Classic example.


Old     (rock_n_boardin)      Join Date: May 2003       08-25-2003, 2:49 PM Reply   
I am in, and would love to help in any way possible. But for a fight this big, the Wakeboarding community will need help, Waterskiers and even Hotboaters will have to join in the fight. Notice I left out PWC users. "I couldn't resist" Anyway, where do we go from here?
Old     (sdboardr99)      Join Date: Aug 2001       08-25-2003, 3:01 PM Reply   
Well most PWCs would be out of luck no matter what since very few are 4-stroke or direct-injected 2-stroke. It's a huge lake so I wouldn't mind them allowing PWC in their own area either.

So sad to see another lake in SoCal without water contact.
Old    stormrider            08-25-2003, 3:13 PM Reply   
Dammit, Barry. Will you quit bringing up science? How can the environmentalists defend against a claim that what they are really doing is imposing their morality on the rest of us (and that their "science" is just a bunch of hokum they use for cover) if you produce real scientific findings?

Honestly, folks, my biggest concern isn't the science, it's the state of our judiciary. When Davis first took office, as reported in the State Bar magazine, he told the legal world that if a judge he nominates cannot implement the policies that Davis stands for, the judge should resign or not accept appointment. There was some outrage by us "old school" lawyers who value an independent judiciary.

Without science, that is really what the environmentalists are doing: imposing their morality on the rest of us. I guess that's what bugs me about this the most.

Anybody got any time to chase down the Waterski group lead to see if there are forces we can join with?

Old     (rock_n_boardin)      Join Date: May 2003       08-25-2003, 3:35 PM Reply   
I will do some research tomorrow on Waterski clubs/groups that we can bring into the fight. I will also post a thread on Hotboats and see what happens.

I know they have not been any help on the Castaic Lake situation, because they all seem to hate that lake. It seems the 35 mph speed limit, noise restrictions, no alcohol policy and strict enforcement over there, has POed a bunch of them.

But with a lake this big, there is no reason not to have a high speed area on the lake away from the general boating area.
Old    stormrider            08-25-2003, 3:40 PM Reply   
Jonathan, thanks.
Old     (paulsmith)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-25-2003, 5:49 PM Reply   
I fully support what you folks are trying to do here, and may be willing to help if litigation becomes an option, to the point of representing the group pro bono with the proviso I can go after fees from the defendant if there is a statutory basis.

At any rate, the real reason I am posting is to caution you to narrow in like a laser on the issue at hand and avoid blaming "the environmentalists" or "the Democrats" or even our favorite punching bag, Gray Davis. If you do, you'll be diluting your message and turning off a lot of people that might be willing to help.

By way of example, I consider myself both a Democrat and sympathetic to many environmentalist causes. Frankly, reading the posts above made me not want to help. I hope you avoid the blame game and instead focus on the issue and strategy.
Old    stormrider            08-25-2003, 6:19 PM Reply   
If I was ever in a war, and artillery shells were blowing up all around me, I wouldn't spend my time running around trying to fill in the holes.

I'd spend my time going after the artillery.

Sorry, Paul. The political leadership in California that is creating all of these problems is one of the main issues and one of the smartest things we can do, especially with a special election coming up, is to boldly, confidently and without regret change that leadership. Do you think we'd all be on the cusp of having to commit substantial dollars and time fighting to get the lake open if moderate Republicans were in control in Sacramento and on the board that controls DVL?

Paul, if you are going to stand up for the democratic party, and attempt to silence its critics (something I've realized is only done when democrats think their opponents are being too successful) I think you should also point out that as a trial lawyer you are, no-doubt, a member of one of the staunchest allies the democrats have in the state of California, the California Trial Lawyers Association.

(Message edited by stormrider on August 25, 2003)
Old     (paulsmith)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-25-2003, 6:44 PM Reply   
Ah, I see. Good luck then.
Old     (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-26-2003, 3:33 PM Reply   
well, that's off to a good start then eh?
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-26-2003, 4:54 PM Reply   
As you have stated, I think it's important to focus on the issue at hand. I may have completely mis-understood your last post and forgive me if I have. It appears you're saying: 'if you do not agree with my views, I will not help'.
I think it's important to remember that even though we don't all see eye-to-eye when it comes to political stands, we're all cheering for the same team to win in this situation. I don't think anyone here is against opening the lake for recreational use.
If you truly do have the ability to help and choose not to based on critics of your politcal beliefs, that's selfish, sorry...

We can all play the blame game after the lake is open.

Again, I hope I haven't mis-understood your position.


Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-26-2003, 4:57 PM Reply   
I forgot to mention, thanks for offering to help to begin with.

Old     (stephan)      Join Date: Nov 2002       08-26-2003, 5:04 PM Reply   
Hmmm elect republicans and all our troubles go away hmmm. So does that also include the deficit as well cuz from what I can tell and what i read today from a Congressional Budget Analyst is that our national debt is balooning, with all the wars and security and especially the tax cuts. So yeah Republicans will definately solve everything. Now I know they did not create the deficit but i am sure wondering why the deficit is predicted to double in only ten years. I agree with the people who say that the environmentalist can skew research to make things sound treacherous, but I can't believe that only Democrats fall for it. We all know that the water contact issue is a bunch of bullcrap. The problem is, it's very popular to be neo-enviromentalist and these organizations have tons of money and lobby swing. I say it's not the Democrats fault, it's the fault of the entire system that allows the highest bidder's terms to be put into place. And you know, Republicans are all about big business and major corporations governing our nation.

My final take is don't point the finger at anyone but yourself, because if you want to enact change then by God take the matter into your own hands. The part where the other guy says "yeah let's do it" and you responded "let's see how much support we could get 1st", you are not a leader, you are standing by the sidelines waiting to jump on the coattails of success. You blame others for the troubles that plague you, yet you want to see what other people do before you make a move. Hell it won't cost you but a stamp to send a damn letter. Ahhh I feel beter...
Old    stormrider            08-26-2003, 5:25 PM Reply   
Hey, alright you guys, we're starting to go a little sideways here . . . no surprise, if you board you ain't no shrinking violet.

Paul, my friend, I'm sorry if I came off a little harsh yesterday. I just felt like you were ripping us, which, as Barry points out I may have misunderstood. Paul, if you could help, it would certainly be welcome. . . . I promise, I won't use the "d" word anymore!

My thought is this: if some other credible group has got a legit organization up and running, it would seem to be prudent to think about joining forces. Jonathan French, I understand, is going to bird-dog this so let's see what he scouts out.

I think we all share the frustration of not being able to use this lake. Last weekend, I had to trapse 180 miles each way out to the river just to find some good water. Nicked the prop. and got a speeding ticket on the way home for my trouble. A lake closer to home would be sweet.

I'll make a point of contacting Jonathan if we don't hear back from him within a week. I'll be out of the country on a vacation for a week, but whoever wants to run with this, feel free!
Old     (paulsmith)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-26-2003, 7:37 PM Reply   
Barry, I appreciate your efforts to tactfully pull things back together but do not see how you could possibly have come to that conclusion. My point was this should be a bipartisan effort and many people from all over the political spectrum might help or agree with us. Steve's response was to attack me and say quite specifically this is an effort to go after Democrats. Obviously, being a Democrat myself, that is not an effort I care to join, and so I attempted to bow out gracefully without stoking the fire any further.

That being said, I do appreciate your efforts to refocus this, Steve, and your apology is very much accepted. For the record, I am not now (nor have I ever been) a member of CTLA, although I would not be ashamed if I were and may end up being a member at some point in the near future. In fact, as you may or may not know I spent my first two years in practice at one of California's largest law firms as a litigator defending mostly huge corporations.

Anyway, refocusing on the issue, I admit to being a little jaded after my experiences with San Vicente trying to get that open further, which was pretty much a complete failure (some of which is my fault). I may, however, be willing to help as needed at least as far as evaluating certain issues or the possibility of litigation as the means to the end. Just let me know.
Old     (baldboarder)      Join Date: Aug 2002       08-26-2003, 7:57 PM Reply   
Over 160 municipalities dump their treated sewage in the Colorado River which fills Diamond Lake. If they can clean it up before it gets there, they can clean it up after human contact and minimal boat pollution. This is a no brainer. Any reasonable logical person knows this. Any truly educated and not brainwashed environmentalist knows this also. It is all about power, control, and the environmentalist wacko religion as mentioned previously. These are the people leading California in the State Assembly, State Senate, and Governor's Mansion. Until some of these people are defeated, recreational watersports will continue to decline in California.
Old     (paulsmith)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-26-2003, 8:01 PM Reply   
Well that didn't last long.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-26-2003, 10:38 PM Reply   
Barry, I appreciate your efforts to tactfully pull things back together but do not see how you could possibly have come to that conclusion.

Text environments are tricky and trying to explain how I came to that conclusion is futile at this point. It appeared as though that's what you were saying.. blame it on my lack of comprehension, I had to drop out of school in fifth-grade to get a head start on paying for this boat of mine.


(Message edited by Barry on August 26, 2003)
Old     (canaday)      Join Date: Dec 2002       08-27-2003, 9:59 AM Reply   
I think I'm going to run for governor. If you all vote for me and send a $20 contribution my way, I'll make sure the lake is open.

On a serious note, how much pull does a governor have in this issue? Would it be easier to offer support to a certain candidate that seems likely to win, that can do a competent job as governor, and would be sympathetic to our concerns as recreational water users? I'm sorry if I seem blatently naive in politics, but it seems to me I pay the same taxes if a Dem. or a Rep. is in office.
Basically, I was curious about how successful we could be if we had a potential governor on our side of the issue.
Old     (sdrider)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-27-2003, 1:44 PM Reply   
Sean, I understand that Arnold finally landed a backroll the other day. I think the choice is obvious.

Seriously, I posted this thread out of frustration and the response has been overwhelming. Corey has started another thread as well along the same lines.

As riders we do not currently have the clout nor the connections of the environmentalists and the fishermen but after reading everyones' comments, we do not lack passion. How that passion translates into constructive action will determine our success, obviously.

As some of you have stated, our priorities are in the right place with our families first; fighting to open up or keep open existing recreational water facilities is an issue that takes up valuable time. I commend all whom can contribute any time and/or guidance and do not fault those that can not.

Regardless, we are all in this together and if a concerted effort from a core group of us brings about change, then all riders will benefit and the result will be a stronger, more powerful voice than ever before.
Old     (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       08-27-2003, 2:38 PM Reply   
just a tid bit of information. the lake we ride after work in our area has the no body contact b.s. rule also. but here is the catch, you can wakeboard, tube or waterski...but you cannot swim. if you are out swimming the ranger will tell you to get back into the boat.
Old     (sdrider)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-27-2003, 3:00 PM Reply   
Ty, that is exactly the same rule at San Vicente. Some Rangers will tell you to get back in the boat and others, as I witnessed last week, allowed an individual to swim while drinking a beer. Inconsistency of enforcement(or selective enforcement) is one of my pet peeves and was covered extensively in past threads.


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