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Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-11-2003, 7:57 PM Reply   
I'm working on a ballast system for a new boat, here's what I've come up with so far. I wanted it as compact as possible so i've mounted the pumps up and made a custom manifold for the in & outs. 1&1/4" to the hull fitting, 3/4" to the left & right sacs, 1" to the front sac. The front sac will be a 700-800 pounder and the rear sacs will be 400's so I've doubled up the pumps going to the front. In theroy the fill time will be around 6-7 minutes. Uses impellar pumps, no need for valves & will be fully automatic.
pump1
Pump2

The electrical system is almost finished, I'll post pics of that once it's done.
Old    str8jkt            06-11-2003, 8:34 PM Reply   
That looks great. What kind of pumps form where for how much??? I have to do the same project and am really thinking of the make-a-wake because it would be easy but I would like to be able to make a custom package as well. Mount it where I want how I want. So come on, get off the details!!!
Old    chris_hargis            06-12-2003, 6:23 AM Reply   
Very nice and compact. Those look like the Jabsco Waterpuppy pumps. Let us know when you get it done and what the fill times are for it when complete.
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       06-12-2003, 7:26 AM Reply   
awesome.
Old    barryb            06-12-2003, 10:14 AM Reply   
Make sure you use enough relays to turn all those pumps on and that you use very heavy gauge wiring. You need the relays very close to the battery and 10 gauge wiring to the pumps.

I had a problem with two simer pumps with 10 gauge wiring and the relays at the pump. Sometimes one of the pumps would blow a fuse because of the voltage drop at startup time, and the pumps ran noticeably slower when both were running due to the voltage drop in the relay and wiring.

I went totally overboard on my wiring like you have on your pump manifolds. I built a controller that switches on one pump, waits two seconds, switches on the second, and so on. It's easier on the pumps than turning them all on at once.
Old    Sean M (magic)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-12-2003, 11:01 AM Reply   
Nice!!!! I love to see good old Kiwi ingenuity at work!
Old    Salmon Tacos (salmon_tacos)      Join Date: Jan 2003       06-12-2003, 11:32 AM Reply   
Has anyone thought about using something like this for a ballast system?:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=37695

5780 GPH, self-priming. It would fill 2000lbs. of ballast in 2.5 minutes.

It's $299 and you'd also need a power inverter but that's fast.
Old    Salmon Tacos (salmon_tacos)      Join Date: Jan 2003       06-12-2003, 11:34 AM Reply   
Oh, actually that's a 220V. It might be hard to get power to that thing. But there are other similar "non-marine" pumps out there that seem like they might be good.
Old    Salmon Tacos (salmon_tacos)      Join Date: Jan 2003       06-12-2003, 11:42 AM Reply   
Or...if someone could figure out a way to drive this thing:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44138

A big motor or off the engine even?

...you'd get 14520 GPH. That's over 2000 lbs. per minute.

Is anyone on here that ambitious...and impatient?

(Message edited by salmon_tacos on June 12, 2003)
Old    helixthecat            06-12-2003, 11:56 AM Reply   
YOur crazy Taco!
Old                06-12-2003, 2:57 PM Reply   
I've thought about those things, but they only run in one direction. So you'd either have to have two of them or you'd need a whole bunch of very large solenoid valves.
I had thought in the past that you'd have to have a clutch pump if you put it on the motor and they're several hundred $$. But -- I now think you could do it with a cheap pump like you've shown and solenoid valves. The default configuration would have to be water in the boat then back out an overflow.
Fill would have to open a valve to the sacks and close the valve to the overflow. Empty would need to close the valve to the intake and open a valve to the sacks.

How much are 1.5" solenoid valves? Does anyone know of an inexpensive electric clutch pump?
Old    Jamie (yooper)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-13-2003, 7:36 AM Reply   
OK Barry! We get the point!
Old    Salmon Tacos (salmon_tacos)      Join Date: Jan 2003       06-13-2003, 9:51 AM Reply   
Barry,

You could make a completely reversible system with two 3-way valves. You would fill and empty through a single through-hull fitting.

I don't see why you'd need solenoids. It would just be two levers. You could even mount them in such a way that you could connect the ends of them together so you can't put them in an "invalid" configuration. If you can't figure out what I'm talking about, let me know and I'll draw you a picture.
Old    Al Carlaw (ally505)      Join Date: Jan 2003       06-13-2003, 11:00 AM Reply   
Salmon Taco's, I've done exactly that, built a twin pump system and reverse it using two 3 way valves. As I'm a lazy b£$^*&d I plan to connect the two levers together and use a long throw central door locking solenoid linked to a controller and a switch on the dash thus enabling me to reverse the throw. I'm not particulalry keen on wiring the Jabsco pumps so that they can reverse, it dramatically reduces the motor and impelor life) and you've also got to handle pretty significant stall torque currents..
Old    jmccallum            06-13-2003, 11:14 AM Reply   
Al;

Where do you get your "long throw central door locking solenoid" from?

I'd like to try using it for a similar application.
Old    Al Carlaw (ally505)      Join Date: Jan 2003       06-13-2003, 11:34 AM Reply   
James, first I need to measure the force required to actuate the two levers, I'll use s simple spring gauge for this. Once I have this I can work out where on the lever I need to place the solenoid actuator keeping in mind the max force the solenoid can exert. I'll let you know how I get on as I'll probably tackle this one sometime next week
Old    jmccallum            06-13-2003, 11:49 AM Reply   
Where do you buy these solenoids from?
Old    Rob Andrus (robandrus)      Join Date: Feb 2002       06-13-2003, 5:25 PM Reply   
I don't know if anyone has thought about this, but if you need valves, I was out in Home Depot today and noticed some great pre-assembled sprinkler valves that look like they run off of a system that requires less than 12 volts. They also have a manual shut off if you wanted one. They come in sets of 2 or three valves.
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-16-2003, 5:09 PM Reply   
Ok, finished & tested the wiring system. Works great, with all the pumps running the 1&1/4 feed pipe is gushing the water out at a huge rate. I didn't test it specifically but looked to be about 25 Gal/min give or take.

The box contains three relays per "zone", they are 20amp replays.

Box1
Box2
Box3

The switch mech is joined to the box using a 12pin plug & a 8 core wire. I cast it into a resin block to make it easier to mount. I have a stainless steel facia plate being lazer etched at the moment to go over the switches + some rubber fingers to water proof the switches themselves.

Switch
Switch2


Here's the dining room table after two weeks of inventing. I don't know how my girl puts up with me.....
Bomb site
Old    chris_hargis            06-16-2003, 7:51 PM Reply   
Man you seem to have a talent for this. Nice set up. Makes mine look very ghetto!!
Old    xwake            06-16-2003, 9:49 PM Reply   
Darren,

I may be missing something, but how are you going to control flow to each bag? What I mean is, what happens when one bag fills up faster than the others or someone moves?

Actually now that I've looked back at the pic again it looks like maybe you have built dividers into your output manifold which would allow you to control each bag. Is that right?


Bo
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-16-2003, 9:55 PM Reply   
Your onto it, the output manifold has baffels in it so the left-top and right-bottom pumps combine to the central 1" fitting. The Right-top and left-bottom pumps have there own 3/4" fitting each.
Old    xwake            06-16-2003, 10:23 PM Reply   
Very cool!!!!



-Bo
Old    fff88            06-17-2003, 12:11 AM Reply   
AWESOME. Thanks for sharing your project. Now, the real question is, how much did it cost, AND, how much do you want to build me one???
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-17-2003, 3:35 PM Reply   
I haven't added the costs up yet, if my girl asks it is $150-200, something like that. Yeah, I would consider making them, I'll get this finished & tested before getting serious about building them for other people.
Old    David Mason (rocketman)      Join Date: Feb 2003       06-18-2003, 1:53 PM Reply   
Darren,

Make sure you give us a final report on how well it works once it is installed (fill time, any issues, etc.)

Thanks!!
Old    chris_hargis            06-18-2003, 2:43 PM Reply   
Darren,
I can't see you making these for that price when the pumps alone are over $100 (those are waterpuppy's I think). Even with the Simer pumps you would be looking at over $250. However, I certainly understand about when you girl asks.

Either way, it is a great looking system, very clean and it is making me think about redoing the wiring in mine to clean it up some.
Old    wes_the_gimp            06-18-2003, 11:06 PM Reply   
Im interested in the amp draw. Will you be able to run all pumps at once?

Looks awesome!
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-18-2003, 11:40 PM Reply   
Darren, you rock man!
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-19-2003, 3:10 AM Reply   
Thanks for the feedback guys. Total amp draw in theroy is 24 amps, I haven't tested that specifically yet. I ran it off the car with jumper cables and it was fine with all pumps running. Even turning on all pumps at the same time didn't seem to upset it. I plan to run 4 guage wire directly into the box, the two stainless bolts next to the relays carry the main power in.

I've finished the box the pumps and relay box gets mounted into, just waiting for the carpet to cover it now.

(Message edited by ralph on June 19, 2003)
Old    wes_the_gimp            06-19-2003, 11:30 PM Reply   
Are you using SPDT relays? Schematic? Vented box? What is that you mounted the pumps to?

So clean, awesome.
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-22-2003, 11:02 PM Reply   
Yes, SPDT replays. I used a schematic from here by Chris Hargis. Thanks Chris!



Vented box? Sorry not sure what you mean? All my bags will be vented and my subs are going to be in sealed boxes if that helps!

Chassis & manifold are made from Acrylic. My bro says they will fall apart within a month, The bottle of wine will taste so good if he is wrong. If he's right I have a PP manufacturer lined up to weld a manifold up for me.
Old    barryb            06-23-2003, 12:42 PM Reply   
FYI -- you can do this with two relays instead of three.

I'll label the terminals common "30", gnd (87a), pwr (87), and control (85).

relay #1 :
common -> pump +

gnd -> gnd
pwr -> pwr
control -> switch at "fill" position

relay #2 :
common -> pump -
gnd -> gnd
pwr -> pwr
control -> switch at "empty" position.

Old    barryb            06-23-2003, 12:55 PM Reply   
Here's a schematic to clarify what I said in the last post.
Old    barryb            06-23-2003, 1:05 PM Reply   
Here's a schematic to clarify what I said in the last post.

Ballast relay schematic
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-23-2003, 2:41 PM Reply   
Wow, thats smart! I would probably switch it around so the pump has permanent ground rather than +
Old    grantmi1            06-23-2003, 7:46 PM Reply   
Isnt their a way to control openings to do gravity feed? Very impressive system man good job..
Old    wes_the_gimp            06-23-2003, 11:25 PM Reply   
awesome!
Old    grantmi1            07-07-2003, 10:33 PM Reply   
Yes acrylic isnt the greatest, I would do Polycarbonate. Any shop including mine can machine it and glue it, whatever is needed. Your setup rocks though.
Old    phimple            07-08-2003, 12:32 AM Reply   
Mate, that’s a thing of beauty, you must have too much time on your hands now that winters here....

I have just been finishing off the ballast system with all the bits I brought back from the US. I will post you some pics when I get a chance, I have used a Rule 1100 GPH to fill and a Rule 750 GPH to empty the sack in the ski locker and a Rule 3800 GPH with a Rule 500 GPH to prime it in the back to fill and empty via two gate valves.

With the two pumps on the back it gives me a total fill speed of 4300 GPH, which fills the custom sacks in the blink of an eye…It took a bit of plumbing and a couple of attempts to ensure no airlocks but its all good now so bring on the summer!

Still doesn’t look as good as yours, although I do have HEAPS more piping and valves with my setup…

Give me a yell if you are ever in CHCH
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-08-2003, 4:27 AM Reply   
I was in CHCH this morning for a meeting, flew in and out same day. If I'm there over a weekend I'll let you know. If you come north you can check out the new Sanger. Gets here in August.
Old    chris_hargis            07-08-2003, 8:15 AM Reply   
Barry, the problem with your schematic is that you seem to have + power to both sides of the pump with the switch in the off position. Would work great when the switch is in one position or the other, but when you put it in the middle off position, then you creat the positive loop to both sides of the pump and fry it out. The 3rd relay in the other schematic eliminates this problem (also the continuous run problem created by switching your wires). I didn't come up with the schematic above, I got it from this board, so I don't take credit for it, but I vouch for it working.

(Message edited by chris_hargis on July 08, 2003)
Old    barryb            07-08-2003, 8:58 AM Reply   
Chris, I've been using the schematic I posted (or a version with dual grounds) for years. I can assure you that the pumps don't fry out. The principles involved are the same ones used when wiring up a three way switch in your home.


Three relays work just as well as two. But the only reason to use three is that someone didn't think of using two.
Old    jmccallum            07-08-2003, 9:04 AM Reply   
Actually, Chris
I was think about using Barry schematic but changing it a bit.

With both motor leads held to +12Vdc when the pump is off, the motor could short to any ground points if someone was working near it (say me and a metalic can of beer).

I think it is better to have both sides of the motor held to ground when the circuit is off for safety. Then one or the other relay could bring their respective side of the motor upto +12Vdc.

Old    grantmi1            07-08-2003, 9:21 AM Reply   
Can you show what you mean James. Also what do you guys use for manifolds? You ever thought of using these. http://www.imscompany.com/webpage_03.asp?id=85


Old    grantmi1            07-08-2003, 9:37 AM Reply   
Or this if you like stainless

http://www.imscompany.com/webpage_03.asp?id=84


Old    jmccallum            07-08-2003, 9:38 AM Reply   
Like this


Old    jmccallum            07-08-2003, 9:45 AM Reply   
Or.... for non-Newfoundland wiring





Old    grantmi1            07-08-2003, 9:54 AM Reply   
www.ppe.com has better prices but they don't have online pricing and ordering, I do have their catalogue though and their customer service is better in my opinion.
Old    wes_the_gimp            07-10-2003, 8:15 PM Reply   
James thanx, thats the exact circuit Im useing. Works great!

Mike have you thought of useing the brass one? No rust. Im useing one of those when the time comes, thanx for the link. Did you see one in sch 80 PVC?

Awesome
Old    Deven Whitaker (nautiboarder)      Join Date: Mar 2003       07-10-2003, 9:24 PM Reply   
some people have way to much time on their hands. And they are alot smarter than I.
Old    chris_hargis            07-11-2003, 7:57 AM Reply   
Deven, this is how we get smarter! We share ideas and show new ways of doing things and all learn from it. Someone will always invent a better mousetrap. The rest of us just borrow the idea after they do.
Old    geforce            07-11-2003, 8:34 AM Reply   
I work in injection molding with plastics plus I design the molds which are steel so as far as plastics and steels I have some info. These guys definately have got the hook up on wiring and schematics. Maybe we should all come up with an invention that I should be molding.

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