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Old    hacko_man            06-15-2003, 2:54 AM Reply   
Me and my friend have just started pulling this trick off on his tramp (360 front roll). But we are at a mental block about what the trick is actually called in wakeboarding terms. Can anybody help us out?
Thanx!
Old    chase            06-15-2003, 4:43 AM Reply   
Toeside, I think it would be a crow mobe.
Old    ross_carter            06-15-2003, 6:56 AM Reply   
is it a bs or fs spin?
Old    reefhunter            06-15-2003, 8:46 PM Reply   
tootsie roll
Old    English (kristian)      Join Date: Nov 2002       06-15-2003, 9:08 PM Reply   
fs spin is a crow mobe
bs spin is a dum-dum
Old    hacko_man            06-18-2003, 12:54 AM Reply   
Thanx guys, i think it is a tootsie roll.
Old    eric (eas)      Join Date: Nov 2001       06-18-2003, 6:06 AM Reply   
doesn't a tootsie roll involve a bs 180, not 360? i think kristian has it right.
Old    wakeboarder4lif            06-18-2003, 9:40 AM Reply   
it's not a tootsie roll(toeside fornt roll with a blind 180) it's either a dum-dum(toeside front roll with a blind 360), a toeside front mobe(toeside front roll with a front side 360), or crow mobe(scarecrow to blind) yes a front mobe and a scarcrow are different moves
Old    ALee (aaronlee13)      Join Date: Jul 2001       06-18-2003, 9:45 AM Reply   
Being on the topic of proper names for tricks... whats would a HS front roll 180... is that a tootsie roll?
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-18-2003, 10:10 AM Reply   
there's no such thing as a hs front roll. you can do a hs front flip with a 180...which is either a front to revert or front to blind, dependant on direction.
Old    root (rootc)      Join Date: Aug 2002       06-18-2003, 10:14 AM Reply   
HS Front flip with fs 180 spin is a front flip to fakie. A tootsie roll is a toeside front flip with blind 180.
Old    ALee (aaronlee13)      Join Date: Jul 2001       06-18-2003, 10:18 AM Reply   
ok my bad on terminology... HS front flip to revert or front flip to fakie... Wow one of the few trick names that is self explanitory....
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-18-2003, 10:29 AM Reply   
ya aaron - my friends and i were at ride the spot with darin shapiro recently and we were talking about trick names. he was laughing at all the trick names now. he said back when he was inventing a lot of the tricks for wakeboarding they gave them names that made sense (roll-to-revert, etc.), but now you have no idea what a trick is by it's name. but hey, prosaic names are boring. wouldn't you rather say you can do a whirly bird than a tantrum with a bs overhead 3? ;)

actually i guess technically i should say "backflip with a bs overhead 3"...

(Message edited by deepstructure on June 18, 2003)
Old    ALee (aaronlee13)      Join Date: Jul 2001       06-18-2003, 11:35 AM Reply   
true. It sounds very kewl
Old    Thane Dogg (thane_dogg)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-18-2003, 3:50 PM Reply   
Rob - a front mobe and a crow mobe are the same thing. You're saying that a scarecrow isn't a toeside front roll to revert, and that's exactly what it is. Saying "a scarecrow to blind" is just ludicrous, it's a crow mobe. Crow mobe = ts front roll with a fs 360.......and Kristian is right.
Old    wakeboarder4lif            06-18-2003, 9:39 PM Reply   
Man, a scarecrow is a LAID OUT frontroll with a 180 in the middle of the trick. A front roll 180 is just that a 180 on your way down from a frontroll. You don't even throgh them the same at all. So if you are going to do a front mobe then you would take a front roll and do a frontside 360 on your way down. If you were going to do a crow mobe then you would take a scarecrow to blind. But what do you know, all you have is a stalefish.
Old    Tyler Hildebrand (ty540)      Join Date: Nov 2001       06-18-2003, 11:03 PM Reply   
Rob, you have a point... but it's really just two ways of doing the same trick. Oh, and just to clarify, rootc, a tootsie roll is a ts front roll with a bs180. A ts front flip with a bs180 is called a fruit loop.
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-18-2003, 11:17 PM Reply   
y'know, it's interesting because i've seen this debate going on before. just recently in wakeboarding magazine in an article about the last pro stop the author said that erik ruck's tantrum with a late bs 360 wasn't a moby there is precedence for this. for instance the slowball. i've always thought it was pretty lame to come up with an entirely different name for a trick just because it was performed differently - but there ya go. from the trick list at wakeboarder.com:

Slowball: An extremely stalled out heelside Front Flip where the body is kept very straight - Invented by Jeremy Kovak.

heh. not only did they give basically the same trick a different name - jeremy got credit for "inventing" it. perhaps that's legit. but it also blurs the line between style and execution.
Old    Thane Dogg (thane_dogg)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-19-2003, 8:56 AM Reply   
I agree with you c-stack. Pretty bogus.

Rob - call it what you want, in my mind there isn't such a thing as a "front mobe". It's a crow mobe dude, laid out or not. Are you doggin' on my profile pic? I guess I'm not cool cuz "all I have is a stalefish" and it's not a pic of a raley or a roll or a mobe or something.
Old    wakeboarder4lif            06-19-2003, 2:40 PM Reply   
ALL RIGHT last time My boy Chad Reese throws a toeside front mobe yep that's right not a crow mobe. Toeside frontroll with an on axis frontside 360 on the way down. My boy Andrew Adkinson throws a crow mobe. Ya I see both of these tricks performed all the time. Two totally different tricks!
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-19-2003, 3:01 PM Reply   
rob you're missing the point. no one is debating that folks are throwing tricks in a different way. the question is, do you call it something different or just acknowledge it's the same trick done differently?

think about it this way: do a ts 360. then do a ts jump and then a late 3. is this a different trick? that's the distinction you're making here. i understand that chad and andrew are throwing a ts front roll with a 3 differently - the question is, are they doing a different trick?

it would seem that if we keep renaming each tweak or variation of a trick then you start to lose the distinction of style, but perhaps not.

from what i can see the naming has gone both ways. how come a hoochie glide isn't a method raley? an indy grab on a tantrum isn't named different - it's just an indy tantrum.

i've also seen scarecrows done very differently. some folks initiate the 180 right as they leave the wake, which makes the trick resemble a switch hs front flip. others do the 180 at the end of the rotation. are these different tricks?
Old    Thane Dogg (thane_dogg)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-19-2003, 4:06 PM Reply   
C-stack, preach on brutha....AMEN!!

"it would seem that if we keep renaming each tweak or variation of a trick then you start to lose the distinction of style"
Old    wakeboarder4lif            06-21-2003, 9:19 PM Reply   
stack i get your point.
it's just you don't get mine.

have you ever seen the same person do a front foll to rev then do a scarecrow?
Old    English (kristian)      Join Date: Nov 2002       06-22-2003, 7:13 AM Reply   
Parks does both styles. And according to WBM, a "360 frontroll" is still a crow-mobe. And if your gonna start calling it a front-mobe, its gonna start getting confusing, since alot of people (and pros) call a "slim-chance" a "front-mobe"
Old    wakeboarder4lif            06-22-2003, 10:49 AM Reply   
never mind, just forget it.
we'll keep trowing our front-mobes and crow-mobes over here in the south and you guys can keep trying your 360s in cal. okay? later
Old    wryan            06-22-2003, 11:12 AM Reply   
a dumb dumb is a backside 3 with a front roll. a crow mobe is a frontside 3 with a frontroll. i didnt read all the stuff you guys wrote above but half of you have no clue what your talking about.
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-22-2003, 1:15 PM Reply   
rob, im not sure what your point is if you say you get mine. mine is that these two tricks are the same, just done differently and thus aren't called "front roll to revert" and "scarecrow." they're both scarecrows, just done differently.

your point is that they're different tricks. i understand that. i just don't agree with it.
Old    wakeboarder4lif            06-22-2003, 6:18 PM Reply   
ok. you guys read WBM right? flip to page 66 of July's issue, then call up Eric Ruck and argue with him that his does a MOBY instead of an INDY TANTRUM TO BLIND 360!
so we will start calling it a front roll to frontside 360. is that okay with you guys?
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-22-2003, 9:25 PM Reply   
hmm, did you not notice that i mentioned that in my first post, rob? come on, take the chip off the shoulder and chill. ;)
Old    Thane Dogg (thane_dogg)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-23-2003, 9:30 AM Reply   
hey guys what's a ts front roll with a fs 3? I don't know, let me check CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE CROW MOBE
Old    reefhunter            06-23-2003, 6:33 PM Reply   
Wow! all of this from one little question about a easy little move I do in my sleep.........O.K. only while I sleep/dream. Tim your right on. That profile pic is bad a$$ and stylish. So is yours Rob.
Old    sk8zero            06-23-2003, 7:45 PM Reply   
Another question about proper trick names... What would you call a T/S Backroll with a b/s 3?
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-23-2003, 8:48 PM Reply   
Blind Pete: A toeside back roll with backside 360 - Invented by Danny Harf.

from: http://www.wakeboarder.com/tricks/tricklist.phtml
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-23-2003, 8:58 PM Reply   
hey rob, in your descriptions which trick is this?

crowmobe.mov

cause i honestly can't tell.
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-23-2003, 9:22 PM Reply   
do you know of any video examples of a front roll with fs 3? i'd like to see it - it would be cool to compare the two...
Old    wakeboarder4lif            06-23-2003, 9:49 PM Reply   
sorry i don't, but if you ever make it to alabama you can come ride with us and see both of them in person
Old    Jeremy (shutupandboard)      Join Date: Aug 2002       06-23-2003, 10:49 PM Reply   
How about some video?
Old    Thane Dogg (thane_dogg)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-24-2003, 10:16 AM Reply   
Rob - you don't have to grab a TS backroll with a front side 3 to make it a Pete Rose. Grabbed or not it's a Pete Rose. The chances of any of us going down to Alabama to watch different people do crow mobes all day long is pretty slim.....show us some video.
Old    tj (iewc_vp)      Join Date: Aug 2001       06-24-2003, 11:23 AM Reply   
HAHAHAHAHAHA Ohh my god your killing me. This is too funny. Do you even know where Claremont is? And I never even mentioned it. I dont particularly like Claremont. I never claimed to have talent. If I have been riding since I was 13 I might be better but I dont have mommy and daddy floating the bill for leisure activities. Start talking trash once your in the real world and can back up anything you say. I am sorry that you have so much pent up hostility that you need to come on here and talk smack to make yourself feel good, thats cool. But remember we are not your father. It is not our fault he hit you and we will be he for you when you need us. Get a life or at least get laid. Maybe then you will have something else to talk about beside how bad everyone on WakeWorlds profile pics are.

I am done with you. Late
Old    Matt VdA (mvda)      Join Date: Dec 2002       06-24-2003, 1:28 PM Reply   
Hey Tim, That's not at backroll in your profile pic, is it? I thought that was the patented "wakewhore" backroll with a late fs540 (which some idiots confuse for a mobe 5- totally different trick). Its pathetic when people don't recognize the tricks in peoples' profile pics. You should go on tour as soon as you get that thing consistent!
Old    tj (iewc_vp)      Join Date: Aug 2001       06-24-2003, 5:18 PM Reply   
Matt,

It is so nice that someone finally recognized it! Damn dude that is funny stuff. That about made my day!

Tim
Old    English (kristian)      Join Date: Nov 2002       06-24-2003, 5:43 PM Reply   
Isn't it a toeside frontroll, not a frontside frontroll.
Old    live2board            06-24-2003, 7:54 PM Reply   
Figured everyone else is speaking their two cents, I might as well give mine.

The sport of wakeboarding is ALWAYS evolving, that is what makes it such an incredible sport; a group of people going out, having a good time, and pushing the envelope everytime to go bigger, or learn something new. Now, no one can deny that there are certain basic tricks (beginner, intermediate, or advanced) that have special names or whatever they are called, but they are called what they are called because someone invented them, and said if you want to do for instance a "Pete Rose" you MUST GRAB on the backroll or it isn't a "Pete Rose."

Regarding a Crow Mobe and a toeside front mobe, these are two different tricks, eventho they may look exactly the same. I appreciate you, c-stack, for putting that link to the video of a crow mobe on the discussion board. I ride with Rob a good bit and we are in the works of getting video of a toeside front mobe on the web and I think you will be able to see the distinction.

One last thing, going back to the basic tricks that some Pro or whom every invented the trick. Anyone can perform that same trick and do it just a little different, in my opinion, in two different ways. They can do the same trick different by adding their own style, character, whatever to the trick OR they can slightly modify the trick. For instance I am not sure if the "Pete Rose" must be grabbed in a certain place or not, but if you could grab the board in a different or more difficult place consistently, should you or should you not be given the props for doing that trick and then getting to name that trick whatever you would like to name it?
For instance Chad Reese is working on a trick that is built off of another trick performed by most Pros. Should he not be given the props if he pulls this trick off at a pro tour stop to name it whatever he wants, or is he just stuck with saying that it is the same trick just done differently???

What's your opinion?}
Old    English (kristian)      Join Date: Nov 2002       06-24-2003, 8:38 PM Reply   
Well we all can't be as talented (or drunk) as you Jeremy.
Old    Jeremy (shutupandboard)      Join Date: Aug 2002       06-24-2003, 8:44 PM Reply   
It's definetly not talent
Old    English (kristian)      Join Date: Nov 2002       06-24-2003, 8:53 PM Reply   
Well, its talent with photoshop.

(Message edited by kristian on June 24, 2003)
Old    Thane Dogg (thane_dogg)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-24-2003, 8:58 PM Reply   
Brian - My opinion is that if someone does a ts front roll with a fs 3 it is a crow mobe, no matter what. No matter if they take their flip straight over the top, or get the board behind them, throw the spin early or late, land it wrapped or pass it, no matter what it is a crow mobe. Combining a TS front roll with a fs 3 in any possible way is a crow mobe, that's my opinion. Now as far as grabbing tricks (i.e. Indy Tantrum, Slob Pete Rose) I don't think a trick should get a different name just because you are grabbing it. That's why grabs have names and we usually append that grab name to the trick.

Regarding a Crow Mobe and a toeside front mobe, these are two different tricks, eventho they may look exactly the same.

I'm sorry but the above statment doesn't make any sense. Read that again and think about it. You're saying that someone could do the same trick back-to-back, and call it something different each time.

when someone does a crow mobe 7 is it gonna get it's own crazy name or is it just gonna be a crow mobe 7? I guess that's up to the person that lands it.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       06-24-2003, 10:09 PM Reply   
Alright kids, let's relax. I just had to delete all the messages with insults in them (I think I got them all), so now this topic, which could have been a productive conversation, looks like Swiss cheese. Why don't we try to steer away from the insults and have a civil discussion. Thanks.
Old    wakeboarder4lif            06-24-2003, 10:30 PM Reply   
thane no man Brian never said that if you did the same trick back-to-back that it should be given a different name. He said, and think about this, that if you do a toeside frontroll to f/s 360 then do a Crow Mobe, enentho they may look the same to you, that they are different tricks because of the way that they are thrown. here i'll explain.
don't just shut me out and think that i am wrong just think of this
a front roll, come off of the wake and flip frontwards head over feet right? Now as you come down from your invert bring the handle to your rear hip and on around to your back and pass it, that would complete your frontside ON AXIS 360, now land. (frontroll to f/s 360)

Now a crow mobe, cut into the wake come off of the wake and look over your lead shoulder and drop your rear shoulder. at this point of the trick it looks more like an upsidedown Raley or S-Bend. Now you are already switch stance so as your invert finishes up all that you have to do is add a blind 180 to make it a crow mobe. do you understand what I am trying to explain?

Brian understands what i am talking about because he has seen both of these tricks performed several times and can tell the difference in the trick.
All I want is for any of you to understand what I am trying to say. Not to get into some kind of "yo mamma" war. And if you don't understand than that is it leave it at that.

by the way i like to back up what say with how i ride! so leisure this My parents don't leisure crap around i am just lucky enough to ride every day in great water. so it sounds like you have a personal problem to me. or maybe your just upset cause you got laid off or something, and haven't got anything else to do than pic on avid rider that's just explaning a trick. DON'T BE AFRAID TO SEND ME AN E-MAIL IF I USED ANY WORDS THAT WERE TOO BIG FOR YOU.

Rob Corum
wb720@att.net
Old    Matt VdA (mvda)      Join Date: Dec 2002       06-25-2003, 9:01 AM Reply   
Why so angry young grasshopper? Rob, I understand what you are trying to say- a toeside front roll w/ fs 360 can be 2 different tricks depending how you throw it. While I agree that there can be a significant difference, I consider any toeside front roll w/ fs 360 to be a variation of a crow mobe.

One of the reasons I'm addicted to wakeboarding is the huge stoke I get when I land a new trick. That said, I've been throwing crow mobes somewhat consistenly for the last 5 years. I've thrown them all sorts of ways- over the top, laid out, landing wrapped, passing the handle. While it is fun to mix it up a bit, I don't get that new trick stoke when I land a new variation. Whether I take it straight over the top and spin a 3 late or throw a scarecrow to blind, its still a crow mobe to me.

Here's another way to look at it. If both variations were thrown by a pro rider in competition, would the judges ding him for repeating the same trick and not mixing it up? I think they would. I would if I were a judge.
Old    live2board            06-25-2003, 9:09 AM Reply   
Thane Dogg- The whole reason I made the statement was to say that I was going to get video footage of a toeside front mobe. You probably have never seen a true toeside frontroll with an on axis 360. According to your definition of a Crow Mobe a toeside frontroll with an on axis 360 would be a Crow Mobe and what YOU think is a Crow Mobe (if you agree that the link to the video that c-stack posted is a Crow Mobe) really isn't a Crow Mobe it's something else just being confused as a TRUE toeside frontroll with an on axis 360.

Another reason to you these are two different tricks that look the same is because you have to have a good trained eye to see the distincition, I didn't think there was anything different between the two tricks until I saw both tricks and had the mechanics of the trick explained to me, these tricks are performed differently. So, eventho they may look the same they are not the same because they are performed differently.

As far as naming tricks, I don't have a clue if there is some kind of board or organization that certifies what a certain trick is called and then makes it known to everyone else. Besides naming tricks isn't what this sport is about, it's about going out and having fun. And besides who cares what the names of the tricks are, a lot of the tricks aren't really named after the mechanics of the trick. Like a Pete Rose is named a Pete Rose because if you crash you crash out the front head first and Pete Rose was known for sliding into bases head first. And the Raley is named after some wakeboarding coach, why isn't it called the Superman? Eventho a lot of people new to the sport call it the superman trick.
All I am really trying to get at is try to be more openminded and to say that in YOUR MIND there is no such thing as a toeside front mobe is pretty ignorant.
Old    live2board            06-25-2003, 9:26 AM Reply   
Matt-I defiently agree with you that it would be ridiculous for a pro to throw two tricks that are similar to each other in the same run.

I think that Rob is calling this other trick a toeside front mobe because it IS NOT a Crow Mobe. It is a TRUE toeside frontroll and then a 360. A Crow Mobe cheats this because you have already turned the board 180 degrees its like doing a scarecrow. A toeside front mobe is like this.... you thow a toeside frontroll stop and have a cup a tea. If you aren't rightside up at the end of this then there is no way you can have a good cup of tea it would all fall out and you would have wasted the tea. You are done having tea and then you finish the trick with an on axis 360. In a Crow Mobe you really can't ever stop to have a cup of tea or are upside down that would just be rude to have a cup of tea lying upside down.

Not trying to insult anyone's intelligence just trying to explain the trick in a different way to help others understand.

Matt-I appreciate your input!
Old    Matt VdA (mvda)      Join Date: Dec 2002       06-25-2003, 10:13 AM Reply   
Brian, I understand the difference between the tricks, but I'm still gonna call anything that involves a ts front roll and a fs 360 a crow mobe. We can agree to disagree on that one. However, if you are going to call the late 360 variation something different, I would not call it a "toeside front mobe". I would call it either a "front roll mobe" or a "front roll w/ late fs 360". My reason being that I associate (and I think many people do) "front mobe" with a front flip mobe. I would consider a "toeside front mobe" to be a toeside front flip (board end over end) with a fs 360. That would be a a really sick trick, and I don't think it has been done before.
Old    Thane Dogg (thane_dogg)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-25-2003, 10:17 AM Reply   
Brian and Rob - Just because someone throws a single trick differently than someone else, doesn't mean it's a totally different trick. I can't count how many crow mobes I've seen, and believe me they were all different in their own aspects. Both of you assuming that I am ignorant because I won't admit that they are two different tricks that both consist of the exact same combined maneuvers is elementary and arrogant. You both come across as very accomplished boarders from somewhere other than SoCal or Florida, and that you, and only you, have the trained-eye to be able to tell the difference between the two tricks, and that is a flat out insult. I can assume that YOUR definitions of the two tricks goes something like this:

Crow Mobe - TS Front Roll with a FS 360.

Front Mobe - TS Front Roll with a FS 360.

Is that accurate? If it is then I rest my case. A crow mobe is a crow mobe, is a crow mobe. People do tricks differently all the time. If people didn't do tricks differently then there wouldn't be such a thing as style. All there would be is a million different tricks.

Let's assume for one second that there are two different tricks that consist of the exact same moves, are there people in the world that can do crow mobes and can't do TS front mobes, and vice versa? Think about how stupid you would sound saying "I can land my crow mobes, but I just can't seem to get my TS front mobe." Seems really ridiculous to me.

Honestly guys, do yourselves, and everyone else a favor and don't make things more complicated than they already are, and just call it a crow mobe, no matter how it is thrown.
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-25-2003, 12:25 PM Reply   
brian and rob - are you guys throwing these off the wake? it would seem to do the trick brian describes (love the tea analogy!), would require a LOT of time/height. rob brought up ruck's tantrum-to-bs3 from the last pro stop. and ruck did that with an INSANE amount of height and time off the d/u.

also, do you guys differentiate between a scarecrow and a front-roll to fs 180? couldn't you do your front roll, have a cup of tea, and then do a 180? would that also be a different trick?

as to how to name tricks, i agree that in one sense, who cares? it's all for fun. but on the other hand, if you're looking at the fact that there's a pro circuit, the sport is developing and reaching a wider audience, etc., it's no longer the backyard closed-community activity it might have started as. although the pro community still seems very small and interconnected, as someone living on the west coast that only recently got into the wakeboarding lifestyle, i remember being at the irvine pro stop last year and having no idea what any of the tricks were. and my girlfriend can attest to having ALL the tricks that even i do look the same to her.

so i think some common understanding on what tricks are and should be called would be good. i believe eventually whoever has to decide what a trick is called will just have to pick if they want to go the extended-name-trick method (o/a 3, o/a slob 3, indy-tantrum-to-blind, etc.), or new-name-for-each-trick method (raley-hoochieglide-ohh-oriental, ts front roll-scarecrow, etc). or i guess they might just go with both.

it would be nice if there was a delimiter, something that guided whether a trick is named anew or appended. for instance, i've heard (since i can't do 'em), that you do a grabbed raley different than a raley. a raley you lay out off the wake - a grabbed raley you come off the wake and get the grab first and then lay it out. that's a bit different - sounds like it requires leaving the wake differently would could be considered a different trick.

of course, this can backfire - even with the scarecrow one can leave the wake quite differently depending on how you throw it.

ah well. at least im not the one that has to make the determination. :-)
Old    shaggydan22            06-25-2003, 12:47 PM Reply   
does it really matter?
Old    live2board            06-25-2003, 1:08 PM Reply   
Appreciate the insite Matt and C-Stack! I see where you two are coming from.
I am glad you, c-stack, pointed out the part about getting plenty of height. Because the guy that throws this trick (toeside front mobe, I am just gonna keep calling it that) is known for getting some incredible height. I have witnessed numerous times this guy jumping over boats! Check out the video "Type A.D.D." and look for the section on Chad Reese and you can see how much air this guy gets. But back to the height thing, Chad does get a lot of height on this trick and he lands it wake to wake. So it's a very technical and controlled trick with good height on it.

Also, does anybody actually know the definition of a Crow Mobe. From a credible source! Like the text book definition, from an instructor or pro. IF you post, you must also give the source (like an english paper, blah!) and use a source besides wakeworld.com.
Old    wakeboarder4lif            06-25-2003, 1:12 PM Reply   
Dan I'm with you. It doesn't even matter to me anymore. take it easy guys
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       06-25-2003, 2:15 PM Reply   
I’ve been reading this post with quite a bit of interest and there have been a lot of good points brought up. I think there are two main questions that we’re dealing with.

1. Are two tricks done in succession before landing considered the same thing as combining those two tricks into one move and, if so, should this sequence of tricks get their own name?

2. How should wakeboarding tricks be named?

I believe the second question needs to be answered in order to properly answer the first. Back in the day, it seems like tricks were “claimed” by the first person to do them and named by that person a lot more than they are these days. This can probably be attributed to the fact that pro wakeboarders were a much smaller, tighter-knit group back then and the number of new tricks that were being done was much higher than it is today. Tricks would often get tagged with names that had absolutely nothing to do with describing the trick itself, such as elephant, Hasslehoff, hoochie glide, Raley, etc.

Looking at it from one angle, some would say that this type of naming convention is stupid because it tells us nothing about the trick. Many suggest that tricks should be named by the description of the trick. For example, a Front Flip is a front flip. A Back Roll is a Back Roll. A Scarecrow would be renamed to a Front Roll with a Frontside 180.

This seems to work pretty well to a point. However, there are many circumstances in which we need to have names that simplify. I would not want to rename an Orbital to Backside 360 That is Inverted and Goes Over the Rope. When describing the fact that I just landed my first Crook, it would really take the wind out of my proclamation if I had to try to excitedly say, “I can’t believe I just landed a tantrum with a backside 360 that I rewound 180 degrees to fakie!” And I can’t even start to think about what I would name a Raley, Diesel or Mexican Roll.

If we go the other way and tag every trick with some meaningless name, we also run into trouble. I think we can all agree that renaming a 360 to a Williams would be counterproductive.

I think the answer to the second question is that some tricks will always have a name and a description, while others will have a name that is also the description. It’s just the way it is, always will be and what works best. Plus, I think it’s cool to have quirky names for some of our tricks because it helps to make our sport unique. When I hear about a trick called a whirlybird, I know exactly what sport they’re talking about. If I hear about a 720, it could be referring to any number of sports.

Now let’s tackle the first question. A few riders have been pushing wakeboarding to the point where they are actually able to pull off two separate tricks in the air before landing. Most notable was Erik Ruck’s double up in Orlando in April. He hit a huge double up, pulled an indy tantrum, seemed to pause (for a cup of tea perhaps), and then spun a backside 360 before landing. It seemed like time stood still for Erik. Everyone on the shore turned their head to look at the person next to them with a look on their face that said, “What the hell was that?” At the same time, there were many jaws dragging on the grass. It was one of the coolest things I’ve seen in a pro tournament.

A Moby Dick is a tantrum with a backside 360. However, when it was first done, and subsequently named, these moves were combined. The tantrum and the 360 happened at the same time, not one after the other. Who knows if the “inventor” ever even envisioned the tantrum and 360 being done in succession?

So should this “new” trick get a different name for itself rather than getting slapped with the Moby Dick moniker? I believe it should…sort of. Let me explain.

The reason we name tricks in the first place is to describe what was performed. If I simply told you that Erik Ruck did a Moby Dick off the double up in Orlando, I don’t think anybody would be that impressed. That’s because I didn’t come close to communicating what it is that he accomplished. More needs to be said in this situation. There are a couple of ways I could explain it, but I don’t think that simply saying he did a Moby Dick is one of them.

So what should we call it? A Fat Moby Dick? A Moby followed by a Dick? A Tantrum followed by a Backside 360? A Ruck? Should we just say he did a tantrum and a 360 and was too lazy to land between the two?

I have a proposition. If wakeboarding continues to progress like it is, I think we’re going to see a lot more of these successive tricks, so we’re going to need a new way of naming them in order to communicate to people what was done. Why don’t we call them Successive tricks? Erik Ruck didn’t pull a Moby Dick on the double up; he pulled a Successive Moby Dick. That tells you that he broke the two aspects of the trick out into two successive tricks. It’s really just a way of saying that the tricks were clearly delineated and not combined.

Obviously, this would probably open a whole other can of worms on the trick naming front since there are named tricks already out there that are successive. For example, the 313, which is a Raley followed by a handle pass 360. In this case, a 313 and a Successive 313 are the same thing.

Some tricks, like a Scarecrow, which is a front roll with a frontside 180, are already being done both regular and successively depending on the style of the rider. However, I believe that the Successive prefix can still add value to established trick names such as these because they tell more about how the trick was performed.

Some Successive tricks will obviously be more difficult than their non-successive counterparts, such as the Successive Moby Dick performed by Erik Ruck. However, others, such as the Successive Scarecrow, won’t necessarily indicate an increase in the degree of difficulty, but will paint a better picture of the style in which the trick was performed.

Thanks for reading all that. Let me know your thoughts.
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-25-2003, 3:21 PM Reply   
so...dave thinks he invented the 3? ;)

i really like the successive moniker, and i think it works well for tricks like what we've been describing. but it also relies heavily on pre-determined trick names and therefore would seem to have limited value.

what i mean is - so long as the new trick is an old trick with two tricks in it done differently, it works. but i also think we're going to see a lot of new tricks period.

for instance, parks is now doing what wakeboarder.com called the "Half-Cab Double Back Roll Mobe." i just wrote to them and said i believed this was incorrect (it's not a half-cab mobe, that would be a 540, right?). it's a switch double backroll mobe. two flips and a 360 - though it might be better called a successive ?, if there was already a name for a half-cab roll followed by a ts backroll to revert, since it's not really a mobe as the spins are separated by inverts...

i think as tricks advance (and new ones are invented), we're definitely going to need more guidelines as to how to name them. of course, some would argue the backroll is already mis-named. and one could call the mexican roll the hs front roll...

as for this:

"When describing the fact that I just landed my first Crook, it would really take the wind out of my proclamation if I had to try to excitedly say, “I can’t believe I just landed a tantrum with a backside 360 that I rewound 180 degrees to fakie!”

trust me - many many wakeboarders wouldn't know what a crook was, and certainly to someone who doesn't know much about tricks it sounds incredibly more impressive to say "i just did a heelside backflip combined with an over-the-head-rotated backside 360 with a rewind of 180 degrees and landed switch!" ;)
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-25-2003, 3:26 PM Reply   
oh, and shapiro said when he was originally doing the raley on the cable trick-skiing he was calling it the "layout." it wasn't until mr. raley suggested doing it on the wakeboard that it became the raley. :-)
Old    Jeremy (shutupandboard)      Join Date: Aug 2002       06-25-2003, 10:36 PM Reply   
In kneeboarding a raley is called a layout. Not that i kneeboard. Not that there's anything wrong with it.

(Message edited by shutupandboard on June 25, 2003)
Old    tj (iewc_vp)      Join Date: Aug 2001       06-26-2003, 9:53 AM Reply   
I would just like to say that for the most part you people are saying the something over and over again. It is obvious that there is not going to be a resolution. So lets talk about how I just won a free Helmet from the WakeWorld Online Tournament!!!
Old    wakeboarder4lif            06-27-2003, 9:37 AM Reply   
awesome Tim, what kind of helmet is it?

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