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Go Back   WakeWorld > >> Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles Archive > Archive through July 08, 2003

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Old    Rob Fiege (sae4life)      Join Date: Mar 2003       05-02-2003, 5:12 PM Reply   
I know this has been answered before but i cant find what pumps ended up being the best only the manufactures. Anyone have some model#'s and what they paid for them?
Old    chris_hargis            05-03-2003, 5:44 PM Reply   
Simer Blue Water Pumps BW8512 for 67 each including shipping at B.E. Atlas 800-305-4393 is the best deal I have seen. They are reversible self priming pumps that work great.
Old    Ray Larson (oldboarder)      Join Date: Apr 2003       05-03-2003, 7:09 PM Reply   
I just ordered three of those from atlas. Does anyone know exactly what I'll need (and where to get) to reverse polarity as well as a breaker setup?
Old    krug            05-03-2003, 8:30 PM Reply   
radio shack, dpdt switch, this means doublepole double throw, wire your pos and neg from the battery to the middle, then run the top two to the pump +,-. then splice the bottom two to the same wires but in reverse. put in a fuse if it didnt come with one 30 amp? anybody else out there look for these pumps at farm store and hardware stores. 53$ mini vac, same pump.
Old    Ray Larson (oldboarder)      Join Date: Apr 2003       05-04-2003, 1:37 PM Reply   
krug,

I tried to respond to this yesterday, but had errors. Anybody else have problems?

Anyway I wish I had known about the cheaper prices, but they were ordered earlier in the week and what's done is done. I'm in a remote area anyway, so time was saved with a phone call.

As far as the DPDT switches, I checked with Radio Shack yesterday and found they only had DPDTs rated at 20 amps. I've seen posts where 20 amp fuses blow, but 25s do not. Will these switches stand up or do I also need to use relays? I'm also considering using a breaker setup instead of fuses. Is this a good idea?
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-04-2003, 2:46 PM Reply   
I would use a DPST switch with two DPST relays then you don't need to run the hi amp draw all the way up the front and back again. The pump performance will be better & the cost of the extra relay will be offset by being able to use thin wire to the switches.
Old    d_fresh            05-04-2003, 2:57 PM Reply   
Here is a pic of my pump/relay setup. Hopefully I will finish the install by the week end.


Old    d_fresh            05-04-2003, 2:58 PM Reply   
I think I need to do something about the date!!!
Old    sub_zero            05-04-2003, 3:28 PM Reply   
Nice install!

What have you mounted this all in?
What is that aluminum looking plate you have it all mounted to?
Is that pic of the electrical relays in a water proof box?

Terry
Old    d_fresh            05-04-2003, 5:09 PM Reply   
What you are looking at is the rear seat base.The aluminum plate was required in order to gain enough room to mount the Simer pumps inside. I had to remove the bottom mounting bracket from the pumps. I drilled matching hole in the plate to mount the pumps. I also made "L" brackets for stability. The plate rests over the open area in between the stringers of the boat. The PVC is 1 1/2" tubing, allowing max flow. The plumbing from the thru-hull to the PVC manifold will be 1 1/4". The intake is only a couple of feet away, so all plumbing is realatively short! The box is not a "water proof" box, but I will silicone it up. You can see the 3/4NPT hose fitting on the front of the base. I will only have to run short hoses to the two 500lb sacks on each side of the motor.

Doug G
Old    Ray Larson (oldboarder)      Join Date: Apr 2003       05-04-2003, 5:16 PM Reply   
That is a sweet setup. I'd rather use relays, so I'm interested in how you did it. I'm still not sure how one single throw switch will control both empty and fill. Can you post a few more details?
Old    d_fresh            05-04-2003, 5:22 PM Reply   
The type of switch you need is a single pole, double throw switch. This switch will have three positions, on-off-on. If I get time, I'll draw a schematic.

Doug G
Old    Ray Larson (oldboarder)      Join Date: Apr 2003       05-04-2003, 6:47 PM Reply   
Doug,

I've drawn my own. Is this close to correct?
raysballastwiring
Old    Ray Larson (oldboarder)      Join Date: Apr 2003       05-04-2003, 6:54 PM Reply   
Doug,

BTW, is that your living room? You must have an understanding wife/girlfriend.

Old    chris_hargis            05-04-2003, 7:12 PM Reply   
Ray, you will need 3 relays to make this work, or you will have an always on. It needs to look like this:

Old    Ray Larson (oldboarder)      Join Date: Apr 2003       05-04-2003, 7:29 PM Reply   
Thanks Chris,

Exactly what kind of relays are those? Is a breaker setup just as good as fuses?

Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-04-2003, 7:37 PM Reply   
Pretty sure you only need two relays as your've shown Ray. If neither relay is energised then the contacts will be open and there won't be any power going to the pump
Old    Ray Larson (oldboarder)      Join Date: Apr 2003       05-04-2003, 7:45 PM Reply   
I guess it depends on how a particular switch works. I was under the impression that a double pole had double poles on both sides. Maybe thats only with a double throw? I don't know enough about them. I was thinking the same as Darren, but the diagram from Chris looks possible too.

BTW, I appreciate all the input from this site. So many have been willing to help, that eventually I will build this thing with the least amount of cussing.
Old    d_fresh            05-04-2003, 8:55 PM Reply   
Here is my diagram. This is a schematic of the circuit. Remember, the switch has 3 positions, up is fill, middle is off, down is empty. This is a SPDT switch with an on-off-on configuration. When both relays are off, both sides of the motor are grounded. Everything labeled CR1 is the same control relay, etc.
Old    d_fresh            05-04-2003, 8:56 PM Reply   
Clicked too fast!!!
application/octet-stream
Pump.fcw (3.3 k)
Old    d_fresh            05-04-2003, 8:58 PM Reply   
try this!
image/bmp
Pump.bmp (20.0 k)
Old    Wakedog (wakedog)      Join Date: May 2003       05-05-2003, 5:43 AM Reply   
Can simmers be safely installed in the motor box/bilge area? Can they be submersed in the bilge? If not can they be put in an enclosure in the bilge?
Old    chris_hargis            05-05-2003, 5:46 AM Reply   
If you follow the path of the wires that Ray has in his diagram, you will see that he ends up with power and ground going to the same side in either position of the switch. Certainly gonna short out with that diagram. Looking at it a little harder, if you switch the ground wires,where they hit the pump, then you should work properly. thoughts?
Old    jmccallum            05-05-2003, 6:17 AM Reply   
I think the biggest difference between Chris and Rays circuits are relays. Rays is using DPST relays (maybe Potter & Brumfield) and Chris is using SPDT automotive types.


Chris,

Your diagram looks right. I'm not familiar with that switch (looks like an illuminated rocker). So I can't vouch for it, but I'll bet a dollar you have it right. I never heard any complaints about dash board fires from you... B-)

Those are automotive relays I think judging by the circuit numbers on the contacts.


Ray,

You've drawn both relays the same way. I think you meant to have positive and negative switch on one of those DPST relays.
Old    chris_hargis            05-05-2003, 7:09 AM Reply   
James, you are right, they are automotive relays, and are SPDT. The switch is illuminated and eveything works great right now.

I see now that he is using DPST relays. Didn't notice that before. Looks like it will work now that I know what you are using. You will want to use that set up for one pump only though because when you first give them power, the Simer pumps spike pretty high in the amp range, then settle down to their normal amps. Running two would likely blow your fuse.
Old    Ray Larson (oldboarder)      Join Date: Apr 2003       05-05-2003, 7:55 AM Reply   
James,

You're right. They would be reversed.

Chris,

Each setup was for only one pump. Does your setup allow more than one pump?

Old    chris_hargis            05-05-2003, 8:08 AM Reply   
No, I run one pump off each switch in my system with 3 relays each.
Old    Ray Larson (oldboarder)      Join Date: Apr 2003       05-05-2003, 9:43 AM Reply   
Chris,

After talking with you and James, I see that the automotive relays are probably best and I actually think I like the three relay system better. Thanks for the considerable time both of you gave.

Ray
Old    chris_hargis            05-05-2003, 11:12 AM Reply   
No problem, I have to give credit to Dane for the wiring diagram though, I got it from him and used it to wire my pumps.
Old    chris_hargis            05-05-2003, 11:15 AM Reply   
Here is a link for the relays, and one for the harness to use if you want.

http://www.partsexpress.com//pe/showdetl.cfm?&User_ID=12211401&St=8100&St2=5807029 9&St3=74139723&DS_ID=3&Product_ID=9682&DID=7

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Product_ID=9685&CATID=47
Old    Ray Larson (oldboarder)      Join Date: Apr 2003       05-05-2003, 9:05 PM Reply   
Thanks Chris. I'm getting 12 Bosch relays (ACCU brand is 1/2 the price, but you get what you pay for) and 12 wiring harnesses for less than 40$. Plus the peace of mind of doing a job that should be bullet proof. Easy wiring and no frying (maybe an occasional fuse?) My friend asked if it's overkill but I don't care. I don't want to be messing with anything once I'm done, especially on the water. Now I just have to find some decent 3 position switches (SPDT)

BTW, you again saved me a bunch of time with that link. Prices are way better than in town and they have what I want.

Thanks AGAIN,

Ray
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-05-2003, 10:24 PM Reply   
I've got a related question about the simer style pump. When you are doing the empty cycle does that go through the same through hull fitting to fill or does it have to be above the water line to get decent empty times?
Old    chris_hargis            05-06-2003, 7:52 AM Reply   
I use the same thru hull for draining and the time is the same as filling. I have one scupper thru hull and I figure it would slow it down some if I was under way, but I am usually empty by the time I have the gear all stowed and my wife is ready to ski. I fill about 1100 pound in about 5 minutes, and drain about the same with only 2 Simer pumps. I am contiplating adding a third pump and spitting my sacks up to 3 seperate systems. I am happy with the surrent system, and just having to push the switch up or down is great. I used to have to turn a valve to fill and turn it when it was done, now I just sit there and hit the switch.

Ray, you can get the illumninated switches online also, but I forget where I got them. I think it was Boaters World, but Parts Express has trhem also I believe.
Old    helixthecat            05-07-2003, 2:12 PM Reply   
Chris,

I will be following your wire diagram above for the install of my simers when they get here. I think I am running a very similar set up as yours. Anyway, do you store the relays under the dash near the switch or at the back near your pump setup?
Old    chris_hargis            05-07-2003, 2:19 PM Reply   
The purpose of the relays is to allow a short run of heavy guage wire to the pumps. I have mine located near the pumps for this purpose. Then you can run a small gauge wire from teh battery to the switch and then back to the relay (as per the diagram. This will save you some money on expensive wire and ensure the pumps have proper amps needed to run. Dane did that diagram, and I used it on my system with his blessings. He did a good job laying that out, so I want to make sure he gets the credit for it. I just posted it here to help out.
Old    helixthecat            05-07-2003, 2:35 PM Reply   
Well thanks for the advice regardless Chris....and Dane, if your reading, thanks for the diagram.
Old    chris_hargis            05-07-2003, 4:43 PM Reply   
Glad I could help out some.
Old    d_fresh            05-08-2003, 6:06 PM Reply   
Here are more pics of the install!
bpmp1.jpg
bpmp2.jpg
Doug G
Old    krug            05-08-2003, 9:48 PM Reply   
thats the most profesional loking install i have ever seen, but i think you guys are f-in crazy i am just a dumb carpenter, i just hooked some 14-2 lamp cord straight from my battery to my switch and proceeded right to my pumps cost about $10 for the wire, connectors and switches and it works great,
Old    helixthecat            05-21-2003, 9:50 AM Reply   
Chris,

Just did the Wiring install like your diagram above(Dane's Diagram) but was getting a short. That said I realized I have the same three way toggle switches as the diagram above by Ray(SPDT)but using your relay(bosch) and wiring setup.
Would this be why I am blowing a fuse when I try to connect the final power wire from battery. Do I need a switch with 5 terminals instead of 3.
Thanks in Advance.
Old    Ray Larson (oldboarder)      Join Date: Apr 2003       05-21-2003, 10:49 AM Reply   
SPDT should work. Post your solution (I'm still trying to get my plumbing done)
Old    chris_hargis            05-21-2003, 11:00 AM Reply   
I am using illuminated SPDT switch. Where are making the final connection at, the relays or the switch? Mine is wired just like above and works great. I would just double check that you have the right wires at the switch in the right location and not cross connecting them (pos to pos). I certainly don't want to infer that you don't know what you are doing, but I double checked mine with a multi meter before I connected them to the switches. I does sound like they may be crossed somewhere and causing a short.
Old    helixthecat            05-21-2003, 11:24 AM Reply   
Chris,
Don't worry about infering.... I in fact have no idea what I am doing...I guess I will never be a car thief. I think it might have got a little too late last night and I might have missed something.
The connections are all made, I am just adding the fuse on the main heavy gauge battery connection (+) to the relays and then I get some fireworks and a blown fuse.
My buddy is coming over with the Multi meter tonight to have another go at it. I just wanted to make sure the switches were not the problem and it was in fact my "less than stellar" wiring job.
I will let you guys know how it goes.....thanks
Old    chris_hargis            05-21-2003, 1:49 PM Reply   
I am sure that it will be something very simple. Let me know.

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