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Old    trigx5            02-24-2003, 7:47 PM Reply   
Unfortunately I am uninformed about the world of speakers and amps and things. I was thinking of two different setups for my boat, both of which are pretty basic.
Either 2 tower speakers and 1 12" sub or
4 tower speakers and 2 subs...10's or 12's. The speakers are going to be about 75 to 100 watts each and the sub I was considering is a polk momo. What kind of amp would you recommend for these two setups? Also, would that be a pretty decent sub?
Old    Sean M (magic)      Join Date: Mar 2002       02-24-2003, 8:05 PM Reply   
For the first option (two tower and one sub, maybe something like an Xtant A4004. http://www.xtant.com/html/products/A4004.cfm

For the second option, maybe something like an A4004 just for the tower and an A6001 amp for the subs. http://www.xtant.com/html/products/A6001.cfm

I have many amps in my boat and been very happy with the Xtants. For half of last year I ran two 12 subs off an A3001. Still got pretty loud even with only 150 watts to each sub. But I just upgraded to a 600 watt (1200 peak) on the subs and its makes a difference. Plays much louder without distortion.
Old    mtbmudmachine            02-24-2003, 8:13 PM Reply   
Xtant amps are very Clean power. They are also very expencive but worth the money. I have a Set up for sale. I think you should check it out. There is photo's in the for sale section Acessories. Complete Boat System
Rockford Fosgate 500X4 (Powers the Tower)
Rockford Fosgate 400X4 (Powers The Boat)
Rockford Fosgate 250X2 (Powers the Sub)
Rockford Fosgate 1 Farid Cap
Rockford Fosgate Fuse Holders
Rockford Fosgate Distrubution Blocks "Power and Ground" Just hook up "Power and Ground" Run your Cables and your system is up and running no guessing. I ran this system last year. It sounds Awesome. It's all Diald in ready to make your Boat Rock $700
Old    kschroeder            02-25-2003, 6:36 AM Reply   
Grant I just gotta ask... What are you planning on replacing all that stuff with?
Old    mtbmudmachine            02-25-2003, 6:50 AM Reply   
Here are 3 of the 4 amps I will be Using, The 4 th amp will be as big as the biggest one on the bottom. It will total 4000 watts of PPI. It should sound very clean when it all done in a few week's
PPI 4125 PPI 5800 PPI 1500 PPI 2800
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-25-2003, 6:51 AM Reply   
I also like the orion and ppi amps. The mtx stuff is pretty nice for the money. hifonics are very strong. Believe it or not, one of the most highly rated sub amps out right now are the jbl bp series. The 600 or 1200 are outstanding.
Old    Sean M (magic)      Join Date: Mar 2002       02-25-2003, 7:48 AM Reply   
I have a BP600.1 in my car. Been a great amp. Low on price, big on power but does not have many features (no subsonic filter)
Old    Sandy Vandebult (sandbag)      Join Date: May 2002       02-25-2003, 8:11 AM Reply   
I like the MTX as well.
As an added bonus they are
about the smallest amp for the power.
the far one is a 600w (rms) Mono
and the close one is 500w (rms) fourchannel
for the tower. The one on the right is 800w
Alpine V-12(540) for the interior
all speakers are MB Quarts

Amperage
Old    Rich (rson)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-25-2003, 8:24 AM Reply   
Spending mad cash on system is ll fine and fun...soon you will figure out that you can do the same thing with amps that are a quarter of the price. The only thing you sacrafice is quality....WHO CARES, YOU ARE ON A BOAT after a year the amps will probably crap out due to high moisture. I am not saying go with SHack special but a sony explode will do the job quite nicely. I see all these PPI, MTX and kicker amps that are just pure overkill.
Old    Rich (rson)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-25-2003, 8:27 AM Reply   
Oh yeah, don't skimp on the speakers...Polk Momo's are alittle much, some normal polk graphite cone speakers will do the job. Here is my system and it rocks.
1 sony explode 500 watt amp
4 infinity 6.5s kappas
1 sony 12 inch sub.
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-25-2003, 9:20 AM Reply   
I would look at a jl12w3. great sub for around 250 watts. The other sub I would look at is the e-design. very nice.
http://www.edesignaudio.com/ep/kseries.htm
Old    eharaga            02-25-2003, 12:36 PM Reply   
What about the Fostgate 750 or 850 Power series? I was thinking of running this amp for my tower (pair of 530s and 60s)....I have heard a lot of PPI and Orions, but havent really heard much talk about the Fosgates....Any good/bad experiences with them?
Old    Rich (rson)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-25-2003, 12:39 PM Reply   
Save your money....don't your have something better to spend your cash on? Go cheap get a sony or something.
Old    mtbmudmachine            02-25-2003, 12:51 PM Reply   
Rich is right! I don't know we have been thinking all this time. Thank's for slaping some sence into us. On that Note why did pay so much for my Nautique! I should have bought a Gecko. Man do I feel stupid! Thanks for your help, Rich your the Man!
Old    Rich (rson)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-25-2003, 12:56 PM Reply   
NONONO, you get what you pay for on something like a boat where ywill be rewarded by its peformace.
With a amp-speaker system you just need raw power, not quality of signal or distortion. You can get a 500 watt sony for a quarter of the price and save your money for things that count like the monthly payment on the boat.
Old    mtbmudmachine            02-25-2003, 1:46 PM Reply   
Rich, No disrespect intended, But I don't think you know what your are talking about. I have heard that same argument you made about low quality & high distortion rate amps. (It's just going in a Boat you don't need a High Quality amp)Argument! When you build a boat system it's totally different from car Audio system in many ways. In a car you don't operate the Stereo nearly as loud as you operate it in a Boat, So a 500 watt amp could sound great in a car but in a boat you aren't making any sound at all with 500 watts, BECAUSE you have so much loss in sound!( I think thats what you were talking about when you said you need Raw Power)you were right! In a Boat it's something like 110 DB just in driving and wind noise, in a car it's like 50 db with the windows down. So in a boat you need to have the volume up louder just to overcome the Outside wind noise, then take in to account that your not in a little box like in a car and the sound just escapes. This is what I mean by operating a boat stereo at louder volumes, We all know when you operate a lower quality/high distortian amp at high Volume it sounds like Junk, (High Distortion) they sound Ok at lower volume, But turn it up and you will see or hear what it is made of. Alot of people don't know what distortion sounds like? I hear people blasting their system all the time with it clipping and distorting they think it sounds fine. Everyone’s ear is different. Quote "What might sound good to you might sound like junk to me" So maybe if you don't know what distortion sounds like you could be wasting you money on high quality amp's.
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-25-2003, 1:58 PM Reply   
fosgate makes some nice stuff...i like orion because it is a little more efficient meaning less power draw, but I would buy fosgate stuff and it is nice.
Old    Rich (rson)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-25-2003, 2:04 PM Reply   
Well, since you obviously graduated MIT with a degree in Acoustics. Then you will also know that Db's are exponential meaning you have to double watts just to get a rise in sound pressure level. In the 500-1000 watt range you are paying for maybe a 5 db gain. I am not saying go to the pawn shop and get a pawners special, I am saying that a decent brand (sony, kenwood, jbl) work fine to run a system on a boat.

BTW, I have been in car audio for 14 years and I currently have a full Klipsch Home theater that is Run by an HK7000 and Infiniti Kappa/MTX car audio systetm.

Here is the website...you do the math
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov:70/askasci/phy99/phy99108.htm

(Message edited by rson on February 25, 2003)
Old    mikep            02-25-2003, 2:04 PM Reply   
Yep, I'm going to have to side with Grant on this one. Distortion sucks in my book.
Old    Sean M (magic)      Join Date: Mar 2002       02-25-2003, 2:16 PM Reply   
I’m with Grant on this one. Boats by design are not great places for amplifiers. Since they are not earthed, there really is not a good place to ground the system. At times there can be quite a bit of noise in the system. I cannot tell you how many nice boats I have walked by only to hear the ignition system via the speakers. Good amps, good wires and good installs can help prevent this. I tried a cheaper amp in my boat, sounded great till I turned on the motor. Lots of ignition noise even after extensive re-wiring. It’s only too bad that amp was not heavy enough to use as an anchor.

Besides poor shielding and RF noise, are watts. Straight up the 500 watts from a cheap amp is not equal to 500 watts from a good amp. Ya, a watt is a watt is a watt… but most cheap amps are rated at 14.4 volts into a single frequency with high distortion. Take that same amp, rate it from 20 to 20k hz at ~13 volts with reasonable distortion and I bet you are looking a true output of less than half it’s “rated” output. I bet cheaper amps in most cases are not stable at lower loads (ohms) too.

So what does this mean? Buy a decent amp and you will most likely be happy. Buy a cheap amp and do not snivel when it cranks out ignition sounds, pops and sound poor. Go to a car stereo store, talk to the installers and see what they are using.

If it matters, in my boat I have two Xtant amps, One Kenwood Excelon amp, Eclipse Ti 12” sub, Diamond Audio 6 1/2, Adrie Shiva 12” sub and Niles on the tower. In the car is an Xtant Amp, JBL BP600.1, pair of Adire 12” and Diamond S600 front and Diamond M series in the rear. At home is a full MnK THX system connected with Audio Quest cables. Hell, even my garage has two pairs of KEF speakers running off of nice Yamaha receiver. Hi, my name is Sean and I have a HiFi problem!


(Message edited by magic on February 25, 2003)
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-25-2003, 2:22 PM Reply   
i have a jl12 in my car with a 500 watt four channel orion running pioneer speakers with a pioneer deck. My boat has a four channel 500 watt orion and a 900 watt orion and run 6 three way pioneers and a 35 pound orion hcca 12 sub. I also put an alarm in the boat and just installed perfect pass and a ballast system. My home is a yamaha receiver running M&K speakers and a 500 watt 15" def tech sub. I too am on the 12 step electronic program.
Old    mtbmudmachine            02-25-2003, 2:23 PM Reply   
Rich. It Sound like you have some nice stuff at home. I don't know why you are using Car Audio in a Home?? but thats a diffrent post.
I don't have a MIT degree, But that dosen't mean I don't know what works in the real world. There are people here on this website That are very smart when it comes to Audio, You might be one of them but that dosen't mean you know how to set up or what's best for a Boat Audio system.

Distortion Rates and Db's are only a starting point to know what to expect when you buy a amp. When you install/create somthing and listen to it in the real world, That's when all thoes number don't mean anything. I would use what you know about home audio and apply it to Boat's and or Car audio. You know Garbage in Garbage out. "Peace"
Old    Keith (rkg)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-25-2003, 2:29 PM Reply   
To me, the biggest issue with buying an amp that is liekly to distort (aka cheap amp) is blowing your speakers due to the distortion. My first boat, had a jensen amp pushing pioneer speakers. Sounded crappy, but cheap speakers could be replaced easily. Now , I want to enjoy the music more. It's not about DBs here, since the pressure level is irrelevant (due to being in an open enviroment). Odds are, most people are getting the most volume above 150-200 hz, whereas most of the db forces are in the sub (feeling the bass!). I will probably add a Fosgate amp or two to my new boat at some point and probably redo the tower speakers to enjoy the volume while riding.
Old    Rich (rson)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-25-2003, 2:37 PM Reply   
HK 7000 at home with Klipsch speakers

Mtx and infinity components in car.
Old    trigx5            02-25-2003, 2:43 PM Reply   
Did you ever notice that a simple post usually turns into a debate. I appreciate everyones input. Since I am the least car audio educated person on this thread (which is why I posted it) I think I will just by all high end overkill stuff and not have to worry about it. That theory has worked for everyting else I have bought, not sense in changing now. Rich, why cheap out on anything, it will only leave you wondering what it would be if you had just bought the best in the first place.
Old    Sean M (magic)      Join Date: Mar 2002       02-25-2003, 2:59 PM Reply   
Aka "hijacked thread"!

I'd still say buy what makes sense for you. Establish a relationship with a good local dealer or two and enjoy the tunes!
Old    Sandy Vandebult (sandbag)      Join Date: May 2002       02-25-2003, 3:17 PM Reply   
I call BS on Rich!
What he says only makes sense if you
understand its coming from a troll.

Rich, You say you've been in car audio for 14 years! BS! If you were, you would have noticed
a common thread in your hundreds of customers...
PERSONAL PREFERENCE!

And, If you were talking to me like that while
I was at your shop, I would have kept shopping!

You run MTX in your car but you say its overkill in a boat? Do you have a boat? Show us a pic of your boat with the system you listed. There's no boat listed in your profile hacker.jack!
Old    Rich (rson)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-25-2003, 4:30 PM Reply   
My boat is a 2002 Malibu Sunsetter XTI. And yes, MTX would fall into a normal amp catagory. I am talking about Xtant, PPI, Kicker, and Phoenix Gold.

Sandy,
That is my personal preference, I would rather not blow a few grand on a system and apply it towards other items like a boat other than a toyota. Maybe you should read my post and see I never said I sold Car audio for 14 years, I was into it. I sold it for 3 years. I have had a system since I was able to drive. Started with a set of Fosgate punch 12s and a Denon amp....ahh memory lane.....
Old    Bob (bob)      Join Date: Feb 2001       02-25-2003, 7:43 PM Reply   
ive got two fosgates here and am all about ready to buy a third just for my tower speakers so my current 600.4 will be able to run two subs instead of just one 10. Im running in a salt environment so i just opened the amps and sprayed the circuit boards with boeshield. You do need some level or quality in a boat since you are running the levels so much higher then in a car, if your running lower quality components you will be able to tell (but only when you actually listen to the difference yourself)
Old    BeeTL (ofwc)      Join Date: Sep 2002       02-25-2003, 8:27 PM Reply   
Sounddomain.com and Crutchfield.com are blowing out 4 channel MTX amps for $199.00...
Old    Sandy Vandebult (sandbag)      Join Date: May 2002       02-26-2003, 5:06 AM Reply   
Sorry Rich, I was completely confused
by this quote from you.
"I see all these PPI, MTX and kicker amps that are just pure overkill"
Old    Sandy Vandebult (sandbag)      Join Date: May 2002       02-26-2003, 5:25 AM Reply   
Careful Brad, The MTX Thunder6304 is only
37.5 watts per channel. This won't have an impact
on your system. My advice is to have
at least 80w per speaker for your Infinitys.

Thats a great idea Bob, has it worked for you?
I have the outsides of my amps coated in t-9
boesheild, but never thought to coat the board inside!
I also spray my poly cones with 303 If water
gets on them while they're playing, it practically jumps off!
Old    Jefe (eljefepequeno)      Join Date: Dec 2002       02-26-2003, 8:07 AM Reply   
Hey Sandy, quick question. You said you planned on putting the Audioformz Fiberglass sub at the drivers feet. How exactly do you plan on doing that? With the sub facing the driver or away? Curious, cause I picked one up as well and am trying to figure out where I am going to put it.
Old    Rich (rson)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-26-2003, 8:25 AM Reply   
Little Boss,
I used angle Iron and in verted the sub at our feet. The sub is so far up in the console it never gets wet or kicked. It fires directly downward.

(not that you asked me :P)
Old    Sandy Vandebult (sandbag)      Join Date: May 2002       02-26-2003, 8:32 AM Reply   
Yo Jefe,
I have pulled the footrest completely so I have
a cavern at my feet. For looks I'd like to
face the sub outward. The other sub will
be out of view and will fire at the side of the hull. But I have plenty of room to do what ever
sounds best. I can't wait to try the audioformz!
I wish I had found that site before I built
my amp boards. The counter-sunk amp racks look
killer!
Old    Sandy Vandebult (sandbag)      Join Date: May 2002       02-26-2003, 8:42 AM Reply   
Yo Jefe,
I have pulled the footrest completely so I have
a cavern at my feet. For looks I'd like to
face the sub outward. The other sub will
be out of view and will fire at the side of the hull. But I have plenty of room to do what ever
sounds best. I can't wait to try the audioformz!
Did you already get yours? I only ordered mine yesterday, can't wait to see it!
I wish I had found that site before I built
my amp boards. Those counter-sunk amp racks look
killer!

Rich, Now you're bagging on my choice of boat brand? What are you... 15?
Old    Jefe (eljefepequeno)      Join Date: Dec 2002       02-26-2003, 10:59 AM Reply   
Rich- Thanks for the info, quick question though, was that sub that you inverted in a Audioformz Fiber-box? It is pretty heavy, but I guess it could be lifted using an angle iron. I would think it would put too much stress on whatever you mounted it on. Appreciate any pics if you have any.

Sandy- Unfortunately, I don't have the cavern to play with. I was thinking (poorly, I might add) to mount it directly in front of the drivers seat, so the speaker is facing the seat. Like I said, poorly, vibrations that close might produce some interesting side-effects.

Other thing was mounting it so the speaker points away from the driver and built into footrest, but you would lose the look of it. I did mount the sub in the fiber-box and it really looks good and clean. I would prefer to keep it in view. I am really happy with the finish of it, should be sweet for a marine setup. Now I just have to get a grill and figure out a place to put it.
Old    BeeTL (ofwc)      Join Date: Sep 2002       02-27-2003, 12:45 PM Reply   
So...along these lines. I'm looking for BANG for my buck. What is the best VALUE in an 80 watt+/- 4 channel amp? I've seen the...

...Fosgate PUNCH 700X (87.5x4) at $309.95 and the POWER 750X (93.75x4) at $329.95.

...or Phoenix Gold 600.4 (75x4) refurb for $299.00?

...or Lightning Audio B.400.4 (75x4) for $179.00?

...or something else?
Old    Shawn (csquared)      Join Date: Jan 2002       02-27-2003, 2:35 PM Reply   
Not that it matters, but db scale is logarithmic, not exponetial (10 times the power to double the SPL) and doubling something is not an exponential increase (well, unless you are going from 2 to 4)....again, not that it matters, just correcting a small math problem in an earlier post.
Old    xtigeman            02-27-2003, 4:35 PM Reply   
Double the power gives 3 dbs for a general but simplified estimation.

Pheonix Gold amps are very strong an generally exceed power specification even at 12 to 13 volts. The Titanium series are killer. Lowered priced amps may be underrated or rated at voltage levels your charging system will not sustain. A 75 watt per channel Phenoix Gold may be more powerful than lower priced amps rated at 150 watts per channel.

The best value on the list is the Pheonix Gold, but that will depend on the refurbish. If factory and it is warrantied, may be totally cool.
Old    rydog            02-27-2003, 7:16 PM Reply   
Hey Doug, I have two 12 JL w3's. Any amp advice? I have a tantrum 500.2 just sitting around, will this work? Or do I need more amp? I would like something in the $250 range.
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-28-2003, 7:04 AM Reply   
I use a 12w3 in my car with a 250 watt orion amp and it rocks. I think you would be fine with 250 to each. You need to check if the subs are dvc or not to get 250 watts per side. If not I would look on ebay and buy one of the JBL bp mono series amps. they have a 1200 watt for under 250 and will run 1 ohm just fine. They are great sub amps.
Old    rydog            02-28-2003, 11:51 AM Reply   
yes, they are DVC. So I guess I should go with more power. Thanks
Old    rydog            02-28-2003, 11:53 AM Reply   
Can you explain how i should wire these
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-28-2003, 11:54 AM Reply   
you just need to check to see what type of ohm rating your amp can handle and are they dual 4 or dual 2 ohm subs?
Old    doubleup1080            03-15-2003, 9:21 PM Reply   
It's funny how some of you guys make it sound like you can't get a good quality amp for a cheap price. I have had experience with many amp brands have found Pioneer Premier amplifiers as well as U.S. Acoustic amplifiers to put out more power than they're rated at and very clean power at that. They have many of the features as some of the "high-end" amps. If paying a higher price make some of you feel like you are getting the "best" then so be it, but if you are interested in excellent quality without paying the steep price check out the companies I mentioned. Trust me this is no Sony Xplod, Pyramid, Crunch, Legacy, etc. crap.
As far as Ryan's question goes the tantrum 500.2 will probably work best @ 4ohms bridged. Phoenix underrates the power @ 500watts. Hopefully, you have Dual 4 ohms subs then you can run the subs series/parallel for a 4 ohm load and give each sub over 250 watts.
Old    Timothy (timmy)      Join Date: Jul 2001       03-15-2003, 9:30 PM Reply   
i will say that i am VERY impressed with my Memphis class D mono sub amp. very, very nice for the money. it simply whoops on my older Phoenix Gold amp in my car (M100).

However, with the Memphis amp you would want to run it in 2 ohm mode to make use of the juice.
Old    doubleup1080            03-15-2003, 10:01 PM Reply   
Joel, I don't know if you have found an amp yet, but like I mentioned before U.S. Acoustics, Pioneer Premier, JBL, McIntosh (oops how'd that get in there), U.S. amps, Elemental Designs Nine.1 & Nine.2, Zapco (not cheap). That Polk Momo isn't anything to rave about. For about the same price as a polk momo there is Elemental Designs, Resonant Engineering SE, Adire Brahma (costs a bit more), Onyx LSM 10, Eclipse Aluminum...
Old    tabiggs            03-16-2003, 8:16 AM Reply   
i think you cant go wrong with McIntosh for your highs and JL audio 1000/1 for your sub, price is important and these arent cheap, but it will blow away U.S. Acoustics, Pioneer Premier, JBL, my opinion but Pheonix Gold and Xtant and some PPI's are good but nothing can beat the clearity of a McIntosh
Old    doubleup1080            03-16-2003, 9:27 AM Reply   
True, True. I agree that McIntosh and JL are excellent amplifiers and they do have more features and have slightly better thd% than the amps I mentioned. However, many people would never want to spend that much on a system. So, I am trying to recommend quality stuff at an excellent price.
Old    Bill Bierbower (monstertower)      Join Date: Mar 2003       03-16-2003, 5:43 PM Reply   
I had champagne taste on a beer budget so I did the following setup and it sounds excellent for what I have in it.

Jensen 160W Reciever/CD ($100) driving a pair of 6x9" Sony Xplod's in the front ($70).
Sony 475GSX Xplode 800w Amp ($140) driving the following:
12' Sony LSL121 Sub ($80,using one side of the amp)
Pair of MBQuart DKE 116 in the back ($100) and another pair in cans on the tower ($450)(in series on the other side of the amp).

It's far from the best setup on the lake but it does keep the lake law on my tail from shoreline complaints.

Bill
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       03-17-2003, 8:45 AM Reply   
BIGGS,
I love your set up. very nice.

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