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Old     (onetogofast)      Join Date: Jun 2012       12-25-2017, 6:56 PM Reply   
Who got reversibles for Christmas and want to part way with their aerators?!
Old     (svnfightsvn)      Join Date: Mar 2011       12-26-2017, 5:20 AM Reply   
You can get brand new aerators (Attwood Tsunami) for less than $40 at Walmart or Amazon
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       12-26-2017, 5:29 AM Reply   
I am kinda interested to see if anyone actually received aerators for Christmas?
Old     (svnfightsvn)      Join Date: Mar 2011       12-26-2017, 9:41 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
I am kinda interested to see if anyone actually received aerators for Christmas?
OP wants to know if anyone got reversible pumps for Christmas so he could get their aerators
Old     (onetogofast)      Join Date: Jun 2012       12-26-2017, 10:38 AM Reply   
I knocked up my banker but still have a bad boating addiction!!! Itís sad that the fittings and thru hull stuff cost more than 4 aerators thatís the hardest part explaining to the wife
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       12-26-2017, 10:42 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by svnfightsvn View Post
OP wants to know if anyone got reversible pumps for Christmas so he could get their aerators


Ahhhh! Reading is not easy.
Old     (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       12-26-2017, 1:29 PM Reply   
Who didn't get any pumps for xmas but wants a free upgrade to ballast puppy kings? I am just kind of interested to know.
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       12-26-2017, 5:55 PM Reply   
Aerator pumps by themselves, may be cheaper compared to a reversible, but once you add up all the other components needed to make those two aerators into a ballast system, the all in cost is not much less then a reversible pump ballast system.

Im not against a system using aerators, as they can be done with success, in the right boat. Just make sure you are going to do aerators for the right reason, in the right boat. If building from scratch and looking to cut cost, take a 2nd look at the final plan.
Old     (onetogofast)      Join Date: Jun 2012       12-26-2017, 6:17 PM Reply   
Iíll go back and investigate. Thanks
Old     (Blamey)      Join Date: Apr 2016       12-27-2017, 7:56 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottb7 View Post
Who didn't get any pumps for xmas but wants a free upgrade to ballast puppy kings? I am just kind of interested to know.
Me
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       12-29-2017, 9:57 AM Reply   
The reversible systems are a simpler design, I'll give you that but they take a lot longer to fill and need regular maintenance.

tsunami 1200's are $28. so you need 150 in thru hulls, hosing and wiring for costs to be similar. aerators take a bit more thought, but make more sense IMO.
Old     (onetogofast)      Join Date: Jun 2012       12-29-2017, 10:46 AM Reply   
My wakemakers cart with 4 aerators and all the goodies minus the hose is $278. Just waiting for the wife to give the go ahead. I do have the one I toss over the side now I can adapt too
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       12-29-2017, 11:08 AM Reply   
Quote:
but they take a lot longer to fill and need regular maintenance.
That 1200 GPH pump will end up about 800-900 GPH once the water hits the sac or drain outlet due to head pressure. Not a huge time difference in a real world ballast system. Likely counted in seconds not minutes, depending on the size of the sac.

Outside of an impeller that may wear or fail after 4 seasons, there is no maintenance.
Old     (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       12-29-2017, 1:48 PM Reply   
With aerators don't you have to have a separate hole in side of boat for the vent and empty as compared to the reversible which only requires one hole? I thought about changing, but it being a bit quicker wasn't worth drilling holes in the side of the boat...
Attached Images
  
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       12-29-2017, 1:59 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottb7 View Post
With aerators don't you have to have a separate hole in side of boat for the vent and empty as compared to the reversible which only requires one hole? I thought about changing, but it being a bit quicker wasn't worth drilling holes in the side of the boat...
It's true. But you can use shared drains/vents for bags that are close, rear bags for example.
Old     (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       12-29-2017, 2:06 PM Reply   
If you share draining holes, I would think it would slow down the draining. Which would kind of defeat the purpose. Wouldn't it?
Old     (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       12-29-2017, 2:35 PM Reply   
I always combined my drain and vent line. Just have to add a check valve in the vent line. Requires then just one hole per bag vs 2. But you do still need one above waterline thru hull per bag.

Last edited by boardman74; 12-29-2017 at 2:38 PM.
Old     (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       12-29-2017, 2:44 PM Reply   
I see, thanks. Only easy to do with systems that have toggle switches, right? For example with nautiques linc system controlling the polarity of the current, and only 2 wires at the reversible pump no way to handle the current to two different pumps is there?
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       12-29-2017, 3:59 PM Reply   
@scott,

The drain and vent for a single sac on an aerator system can share single thru-hull outlet. Regardless of using a dedicated thru-hull for the vent and drain, I do suggest a check-valve in the vent line anyway.

Draining is not slowed in any way but a shared thru-hull.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       12-30-2017, 3:07 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chpthril View Post
@scott,

The drain and vent for a single sac on an aerator system can share single thru-hull outlet. Regardless of using a dedicated thru-hull for the vent and drain, I do suggest a check-valve in the vent line anyway.

Draining is not slowed in any way but a shared thru-hull.
Yep gotta check valve the vent....
Old     (onetogofast)      Join Date: Jun 2012       12-31-2017, 1:06 PM Reply   

Boom!
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       12-31-2017, 2:23 PM Reply   
Unless you have 200-300 # sacs, you wont be satisfied with the flow rate of an 800 GPH pump. Ends up about 600 GPH at the end of the line. Upgrading later means new hose and fittings, just not new pumps. Lots of pieces tossed overboard later.

Spend a little more and go with a faster pump and 1" hose and fittings.

Also, I hope theres a lot more to your cart that didnt make it to in that pic.
Old     (onetogofast)      Join Date: Jun 2012       12-31-2017, 2:50 PM Reply   
I have the vents and drains and other stuff I have collected prior to and have a 10plus minute ride from the dock to the buoy. When tossing the pump over the side it takes about the amount of time for the ride so it will all pan out perfect for what I need.
Old     (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       12-31-2017, 6:45 PM Reply   
Totally agree with TigeMike...Why are you doing the 3/4 instead of 1 inch? Is it the wife again? She told you your 3/4 size is plenty?

Down the road you might want bigger sacks and would be same amount of work for more "bandwidth" so to speak.

Last edited by scottb7; 12-31-2017 at 6:49 PM.
Old     (onetogofast)      Join Date: Jun 2012       12-31-2017, 7:16 PM Reply   
The rest of the boat that already has plumbing is done in 3/4. It will be pleasing for what I’m doing and will fill by the time I hit the ride zone. Anything beats tossing the pump over the side when I’ve been doing it for 6 years.

Last edited by onetogofast; 12-31-2017 at 7:19 PM. Reason: Spelling
Old     (WheelerWake)      Join Date: Mar 2013       01-01-2018, 5:45 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by onetogofast View Post
The rest of the boat that already has plumbing is done in 3/4. It will be pleasing for what Iím doing and will fill by the time I hit the ride zone. Anything beats tossing the pump over the side when Iíve been doing it for 6 years.
My experience is that the biggest restriction in water flow is the fitting at the sac, not the hose size. Several years ago I did a test with 3/4" and 1" hose, the fill time was identical. But if your filling 2 sacs off 1 pump it would probably make a difference.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       01-03-2018, 9:35 AM Reply   
I'd go with 1" fittings and 1200 gph pumps. And paying close to 100 for an 800 gph pump is bull****.

I know WM makes it easy to buy all at once from one place, but there are cheaper options....

Additionally, if I were to replace my 800s with 1200s and use the same 3/4" stock inlets, I would see an increase in flow? although 90% of the system would be 1 1/8" hose.. just about 12" of stainless 3/4" as it comes in the boat....
Old     (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       01-03-2018, 10:20 AM Reply   
You know you cant fill with aerator pumps while under way right?????

Unless you have a scooper inlet on the bottom of the boat and if you have a scooper then you need to have a gate so it doesn't auto fill.


So you'll have to ride to your spot then fill.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       01-03-2018, 12:19 PM Reply   
12v solenoids work as well....
Old     (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       01-03-2018, 5:05 PM Reply   
You know I am unsure if that is true about not filling while underway. But I am curious what others think. Two of my friends have axis 2014 and 2015 and the both have no probs filling while underway.

The pump is $30 on amazon...
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-03-2018, 5:43 PM Reply   
Aerators can struggle to fill while underway. With boat on plane and at speed, the water line is much lower, or in other words, the boat is high out of the water, thus lowering the water level in the intake and pump. Since aerators are not self priming, they will not draw the water up into the pump body. So depending on the design and configuration, an aerator may not fill underway.

You are better off going with impeller pumps if the aerator system cannot be implemented without the use of gates or other electro-mechanical valves.
Old     (onetogofast)      Join Date: Jun 2012       01-03-2018, 6:22 PM Reply   
The pumps were 24.99, quantity 3.
Old     (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       01-03-2018, 6:45 PM Reply   
Nice. You had me worried. Guess I should have figured that out. Too much bourbon, after a long day at work, sorry.
Old     (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       01-04-2018, 5:34 AM Reply   
I just wanted to let you know they don't fill well while under way. I have a 06 supra that I upgraded the stock ballast with aerator pumps and by the time I get to my spot we figure out who going first, get the board out then the life jacket and rope the ballast is almost full. OH and move my Lead Wake bags to the nose. This is enough time to almost fill three 1100 bags.
Old     (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       01-04-2018, 7:55 AM Reply   
My Axis fills just fine underway.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       01-04-2018, 8:18 AM Reply   
it 100% depends on where the inlets are located. my rear bags come in through the transom, can't fill while underway because the pumps aren't getting water. I'll rework the stock system to include independent valves and fills for rear bags. Belly bag is already coming in from bottom of the boat. it doesn't force fill. Need to stick my head in the locker and see exactly how it's setup.

On a scoop, they will fill underway and force fill if you don't have a valve on them. put a solenoid or valve on the intake and you can control force filling.

It's a beautiful thing to show up to ride spot fully weighted and ready to ride.
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-04-2018, 8:44 AM Reply   
impeller pump wont even draw water through transom mounted intakes, when boat is on plane. No water around the intake to draw.

Quality electr-mechanical gate valves add costs that will put you at the price of an impeller pump system. They are prone to fail as well. Again, skip a system that requires those kinds of valves.

Manual ball valves are cheap and effective, but doesnt it defeat the purpose of a plumbed in system, to have manual valves that need operating?
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       01-04-2018, 8:56 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chpthril View Post
impeller pump wont even draw water through transom mounted intakes, when boat is on plane. No water around the intake to draw.
With this sort of next level thinking, I'm not surprised you can't understand how an aerator system works
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       01-04-2018, 11:41 AM Reply   
Are you serious about berating chpthril on ballast systems? The guy who sells to and advises more people than can be counted regarding ballast systems?
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       01-04-2018, 11:54 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
Are you serious about berating chpthril on ballast systems? The guy who sells to and advises more people than can be counted regarding ballast systems?
not really... just got tired of repeating myself, only to have him say the same thing. maybe he's not reading what I write? IDK.

Rock on master of the ballast system!! I guess I'll quit trying to help people. I designed and installed system in my last boat from soup to nuts, but WTF do I know.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       01-04-2018, 1:34 PM Reply   
Maybe there is miscommunication, but chp has installed hundreds of ballast systems. I have designed and installed 3 now, but still yield to him. I suspect there is some text-related blocks in understanding.
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-04-2018, 4:58 PM Reply   
@ Nacho,

Im always up for a good discussion. Please feel free to challenge any of my ballast statements as im more then prepared to stand behind my statements with experience and knowledge of what works and does not work.

Ive read all your posts here and Im confused about your repeating yourself comment.
Old     (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       01-04-2018, 5:33 PM Reply   
Aerators are a bit finicky in some ways. If the system is designed correctly then it will be reliable and perform well.

Same can be said for many things, though.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       01-04-2018, 6:14 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonblarc7 View Post
You know you cant fill with aerator pumps while under way right?????

Unless you have a scooper inlet on the bottom of the boat and if you have a scooper then you need to have a gate so it doesn't auto fill.


So you'll have to ride to your spot then fill.
Not true-

Our T22 fills up to about 35 mph. No scoops.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       01-04-2018, 6:45 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
Not true-



Our T22 fills up to about 35 mph. No scoops.


I think the point is, while some aerators do manage to fill underway, most donít and it canít be relied upon.
Old     (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       01-05-2018, 5:57 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
Not true-

Our T22 fills up to about 35 mph. No scoops.


Yes your T22 was designed from the factory with aerators in the right place. If your just going to stick a hole in the bottom of your boat anywhere it's convenient it's probably not going to fill while underway.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       01-05-2018, 9:29 AM Reply   
@chpthrl - not interested in challenging anyone, just trying to help someone figure it out based on my experience. not trying to nitpick this to death, but this is what I meant. I'm sure it was an oversight. Not a big deal. Was being sarcastic with my comment, thought that was obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
it 100% depends on where the inlets are located. my rear bags come in through the transom, can't fill while underway because the pumps aren't getting water.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chpthril View Post
impeller pump wont even draw water through transom mounted intakes, when boat is on plane. No water around the intake to draw.
Tom sums it all up IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
Aerators are a bit finicky in some ways. If the system is designed correctly then it will be reliable and perform well.
A blind monkey (not that any of you are blind OR monkeys!!! group hug!) can put in a reversible system. An aerator system takes a little more thought and planning. But a well designed system can kick ass and be a tad quicker to fill/drain IMO. I also like the idea of never touching the system once installed.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       01-05-2018, 9:30 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
I think the point is, while some aerators do manage to fill underway, most donít and it canít be relied upon.
a well designed can be relied upon to fill and drain EVERY time.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       01-05-2018, 9:34 AM Reply   
@chpthril - what's your experience putting a 1200 pump on a 3/4" inlet with 12" run to the pump? is there enough restriction to warrant creating a bigger inlet?
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       01-05-2018, 9:47 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
Not true-

Our T22 fills up to about 35 mph. No scoops.
where are the fill inlets? bottom of hull close to transom?
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-05-2018, 10:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
@chpthril - what's your experience putting a 1200 pump on a 3/4" inlet with 12" run to the pump? is there enough restriction to warrant creating a bigger inlet?
You installed one system, arent you an expert now? Ok, J/K, just a sarcastic reply.

The .75" thru-hull does not worry me at all. The Rule 1100 (which is actually faster then the Attwood T1200) has a .75" inlet. But having the pump 12" from the intake is a red flag at first reading. In an ideal setup, you would want the pump as close to the intake as possible, in order to prevent an orientation that could lead to air lock. If the bilge is not deep enough to allow the pump to sit right on the ball-valve and intake, then consider a street 45* to lay the pump over a little. Maintains the upward travel but lowers it overall. But if you must use a 12" pipe, which is not unlike a 3-4 pump common manifold, then you need to make sure that you can maintain some upward travel from the intake to the pump outlet and the pump stays below the water line.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       01-05-2018, 10:36 AM Reply   
nice! there ya go!

never claimed to be an expert. reworking the system that came in my boat. No, I would not have installed it like this
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       01-05-2018, 10:50 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
a well designed can be relied upon to fill and drain EVERY time.


It also is nice that you can run an aerator dry and not fry stuffó+1 for that for sure.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       01-05-2018, 11:04 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
where are the fill inlets? bottom of hull close to transom?
Boat is in storage, but I believe all 4 are located just aft of the belly tank, about where the drivers seat is.

IIRC Our tige also had no problems filling underway- just ran slower than the axis does underway.
That boat had all aerators int he back by the transmission I believe, but maybe there were 2 up front, I don't remember.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       01-05-2018, 11:07 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
It also is nice that you can run an aerator dry and not fry stuff—+1 for that for sure.
we run 3 boats with aerators and 2 boats without. Aerators never give seem to give any trouble as long as they are primed.

Last edited by simplej; 01-05-2018 at 11:09 AM.
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-05-2018, 3:49 PM Reply   
A pre 09 Tige would have had a common manifold for 4 pump with the main intake on the transom. Notorious for air lock issues. Typically had to reverse the boat and goose the throttle to get them primed for the first time each time the boat was launched. 09 and later, each pump had its own thru-hull and they are hull mounted between the v-drive and fuel tank. Still see some with some air lock issues due to how the factory oriented the pump's outlet or the style of check valve used. Many times we've reoriented the pump or used a different check valve.

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