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Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       05-08-2014, 9:42 AM Reply   
Long story short, I decided to make myself a "gate," to help improve my direct drive for surfing, at least that was the idea. 2001 aztek sunstar 5.7mpi.

here is my hull before the gate


and here is the gate that I made.


and here is our "wave" before the "masongate version 1.0"


and there is the wake with the gate


I was running 1500 lbs in the rear surf corner for surfing before the gate, and with the gate i ran 800 lbs dead center in the rear of the boat. As you can tell, the gate cleaned up the wave in a huge fashion, but is still lacking push. Its looks pretty but doesnt work great, but i must admit having only 1 fatsac not really taking up a lot of room is realllllly nice.

What I am looking for advice on is if there is a way to get some more push out of it? Shorter gate, taller gate? I dont know. Any help there guys? I am making a 2.0 version of the gate today. Going to make a shorter taller gate with a lip on top to eliminate some of the spray coming over the original gate. The spray didnt seem to hurt anything, was just annoying.

Whatcha guys think?
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       05-08-2014, 9:44 AM Reply   
Also, I know its hard to tell the height in the pics, but the wave got much taller with the "gate," it is at least hip high with the gate on.
Old    Boat Driver (LYNRDSKYNRD)      Join Date: Sep 2012       05-08-2014, 9:53 AM Reply   
Very nice!! Several of the guys on the Axis forum have made these too. Wave looks great with the gate.
Old    FENCE SENCE (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-08-2014, 10:35 AM Reply   
Obviously, not the best hull for surfing but, what an improvement. The whole "push" thing is going to be tough. Your hull design is what it is. You're only going to get it to be so good. Some of nicest wake boats on the water have some of the worst surf wakes. They can generate size all day long but, if the shape sucks, it's just a big version of a crappy shape. I've always been lucky with my old Ddrive because it has outstanding shape. It's not the biggest wake by any means but, it has outstanding shape. I think it has something to do with the sheer width of the boat and one of the other things is nice corners on the transom and no negative chine. One big problem I see with your's is those huge rounded corners at the transom. Water follows curved surfaces. It releases off "hard" edges. I've offen wondered if creating a hard edge on the surf side would help keep the wake from flowing around the back of the boat and to the other side. Ideally you want to keep as much water as you can in the wake face. Perhaps just a small vertical edge could help out. I've never seen it done but, it seems to work perfect in my head.

Another possibility is perhaps too much gate on the other side. Maybe just adjusting the amount of "throw", if you will, would allow some more water back to the other side to help "fill in" behind the surf wake. I'm just thinking out loud here. If there are any fluid dynamacists in the house, speak up.

Another thing that will greatly increase your fun is a fast board. A fast board can make up a lot of the difference of having a marginal wake shape. Speed is king in wake surfing. Once you taste a fast board, nothing else will do.

Last edited by fence_sence; 05-08-2014 at 10:40 AM.
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       05-08-2014, 10:35 AM Reply   
try slowing the boat down. Slower the boat, more push. Looks like a really long wave so you probably have some room to slow down.
Old    FENCE SENCE (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-08-2014, 10:41 AM Reply   
Did you try removing the platform yet?

Where you at with the speedo issue?
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       05-08-2014, 11:29 AM Reply   
I did pull the platform. Didn't help much with the gate in place. Speed issue, we did a couple things. Downloaded a Gps speedo on my phone and ran that and also tried rpm speed. Both worked decent but not great. May take my Garmin with us this weekend and try that. We had a pontoon pull right in front of us while surfing at forced us to slow wayyyyy down. The good part of that story is that it really made us realize how slow we can go and get a better wave behind our boat. I think the biggest problem we had after that was getting the wave to form at such slow speed. We tried speeding up to about 10.5 or 11 and then slowing down, that seemed to help a little. I built another smaller steeper gate to try this Saturday. We will see how this one turns out also. Making progress! A better board I'm sure would help.
Old    Robert Rodriguez (Rob720)      Join Date: Mar 2012       05-08-2014, 2:36 PM Reply   
If you are good at fab work I would put a prop guard on that trailer. One bad bump and you are out 700 for a rudder and port!
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       05-08-2014, 3:47 PM Reply   
True. I would hate to mess up the boat. Luckily it only is on the road about twice a year. It spends 99% of its life in a slip. Thanks for the tip.
Old    Charlie Zulu (Pad1Tai)      Join Date: Jan 2013       05-09-2014, 7:25 AM Reply   
Is the deflection angle fixed to that angle?
Old    Dennis Costa (dejoeco)      Join Date: Apr 2003       05-09-2014, 8:03 AM Reply   
I never thought about the rounded corner thing, but fence_sence may be right because the NSS system protrudes out and makes a definite hard edge and surf gate makes a hard edge.

Jason, you reduced the weight in your boat, why? The surf gate and NSS don't necessarily reduce wieght, they just even it out. Lowering the boat into the water creates the displacement making the wave. You need to experiment more and see what works best for you.
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       05-09-2014, 8:08 AM Reply   
I made multiple holes to try different angles with the gate, I really didnt play with them much, but I plan too tomorrow. As far as the weight, we filled the 800 in the center back of the boat, we also grabbed a 750 and started to fill that on the surf side and it destroyed the wave. When we went back to the 800 only it created a much better wave. Maybe having the 800 and 750 in the center would work better? Tomorrow again, we will do some experimenting and see what else we can come up with. Its getting much better so I have faith that we will get it going how we want too.
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       05-09-2014, 8:11 AM Reply   
The main issue we see is that the push is great, but wayyyyy forward, like on top of the swim deck. Now, we are for sure beginner riders, so I am sure this plays a part in that. I will try every bodies advice and slow it down some tomorrow, play with the weight on it and see what we can come up with. Thanks for the hints everyone!
Old    Jack Henry (racer808)      Join Date: Jan 2013       05-09-2014, 8:21 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by masongardner View Post
The main issue we see is that the push is great, but wayyyyy forward, like on top of the swim deck. Now, we are for sure beginner riders, so I am sure this plays a part in that. I will try every bodies advice and slow it down some tomorrow, play with the weight on it and see what we can come up with. Thanks for the hints everyone!
more weight in the bow on the surf side will make the pocket longer
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-09-2014, 8:45 AM Reply   
Get a high end faster board. Push comes from weight. Get more weight in it or get a faster board. I can ride all over the pocket on a small wave with my shred stixx ringer. Pearls easier then my pro boards but boy is it fast!
Old    Dennis Costa (dejoeco)      Join Date: Apr 2003       05-09-2014, 8:49 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffymahoney View Post
Get a high end faster board. Push comes from weight. Get more weight in it or get a faster board. I can ride all over the pocket on a small wave with my shred stixx ringer. Pearls easier then my pro boards but boy is it fast!
This is a valid point. I learned to surf and do it pretty well behind my 02 Tige direct drive only after I got a really good board. It made all the difference.
Old    Charlie Zulu (Pad1Tai)      Join Date: Jan 2013       05-09-2014, 9:05 AM Reply   
These should be the basic points of the surf wake... whats your opinion?

Ballast in the aft corner equals more vertical (push)

Ballast added to the bow lengthens the wake (bigger pocket)

Delayed convergence of wakes equals cleaner crisp wake (NSS, Surfgate, Swell, Gen2)
Old    MICAH HARPER (MICAH_HARPER)      Join Date: Apr 2010       05-09-2014, 9:10 AM Reply   
For sure should probably get a faster board. Just cause its a big board doesnt mean it can surf a small wave.

im 210lb and ride a 4'6" Doomswell Nubstep. im able to ride at my size because of its speeed. Fastest boar i have been on by far.

Check out the Doomswell guys on Facebook and instagram @doomswell. Or give Brock a call 409 692 6363
www.doomswell.com
100% made in Texas.
Old    Dennis Costa (dejoeco)      Join Date: Apr 2003       05-09-2014, 9:50 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pad1Tai View Post
These should be the basic points of the surf wake... whats your opinion?

Ballast in the aft corner equals more vertical (push)

Ballast added to the bow lengthens the wake (bigger pocket)

Delayed convergence of wakes equals cleaner crisp wake (NSS, Surfgate, Swell, Gen2)
I generally agree with this. Weight in the aft corner is important and I believe adds height to the wave, not necessarily push. I have done extensive trial and error with several boat and weight on the opposite side helps with push in most instances, not all. For instance, the wave on the regular side of my boat needs counter weight to be great. My goofy side set up wants all the weight on that side. This is due to prop rotation.
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       05-09-2014, 9:26 PM Reply   
Great advice. I will try playing with weight tomorrow and see if I can get something good going. We have great height, so maybe some bow weight will be helpful. We definitely need a faster board and will get one.
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       05-09-2014, 10:25 PM Reply   
You look a lot farther back in the after picture than you were in the first picture. The wave definitely looks a lot cleaner.
The Moomba Flow gate system, recommends running even weight from side to side, but to run the weight at a 60/40 split rear to front. The goal isn't to list the boat or have the bow up in the air, but to run it almost level. Too much weight in the back will make the gates less effective, but you still want to drop the overall depth of the boat low in the water.
Add some bow weight for sure. With a direct drive having the engine in the center instead of the rear, you will probably need to run more like a 70/30 split for weight since the engine adds more weight towards the front as opposed to a v-drive. If you are running a 800 in the rear, try throwing that 750 in the bow filled about 3/4 of the way.

Your platform most likely has a lip that will eat some of your push. If it does, you may look into building or buying a platform that is smooth on the bottom that doesn't inject turbulence into the water from that lip. I know you said you have removed the platform, but sometimes the platform actually helps the wake out if it isn't cupping the wake. We built a platform that was about 75% the size of the original and came out at an angle following the water coming around the hull. It is smooth on the bottom, not stepped like most factory platforms. The change to this platform drastically increase the push of the wake and cleaned it up as well on a direct drive sunsport.

Your hull definitely seems to wrap around and smooth the water coming out to follow it rather than releasing it as was stated above. Adding a small vertical tab similar to your gate on the surf side that barely sticks off the hull and makes it a sharp release may very well help you. If you surf both sides, maybe try making a gate for that side same as the one you made, but make sure they can slide in and be parallel to the transom and just barely stick out when you're surfing that side. Otherwise a small fixed tab should do the trick. This isn't anything we've had to try ourselves since the Supra has a hard cut off on the transom, not round.

Speed is something that should be played around with and it differs if you're on a body of water with a current.
We typically don't surf above 10.7mph and will even drop down to 9.3mph at times. A slight difference in speed of about 1mph can make a difference in push. Play around with it a little bit both going upstream and downstream. Slower will always give you more push, but faster can clean up the wake some. I know newer riders will tend to stay towards the platform because that is where the most push tends to be, it can be a little tricky to get yourself back in the pocket and feel where it really ends without dropping back. This comes from experience, don't be afraid to drop back more and play with it.

The board issue is definitely one that can make a difference. What kind of board are you running? Quicker boards do well on smaller wakes with less push.

Also even with a great wake, a lot of success comes down to skill and experience. I have been out with guys on a V-drive loaded with ballast that just couldn't get a decent freeride in due to lack of experience, not boat setup. On the flip side, two of my friends went out a few weeks ago, forgot the sacks all together and were still able to freeride with only 2 people in the boat and no ballast or gate system whatsoever. Experience and technique play a huge part of your time out there. The more you ride, the easier you will be able to ride, even in less than ideal conditions.

Last edited by phathom; 05-09-2014 at 10:30 PM.
Old    Charlie Zulu (Pad1Tai)      Join Date: Jan 2013       05-10-2014, 6:09 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dejoeco View Post
I generally agree with this. Weight in the aft corner is important and I believe adds height to the wave, not necessarily push. I have done extensive trial and error with several boat and weight on the opposite side helps with push in most instances, not all. For instance, the wave on the regular side of my boat needs counter weight to be great. My goofy side set up wants all the weight on that side. This is due to prop rotation.
Prop rotation is an issue... But also nothing you can do anything about.. My boat, like 99% of them, is a LH prop rotation... All things being equal, my Goofy wake is cleaner than my Reg wake... Speed and Ballast being equal..
Old    FENCE SENCE (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-11-2014, 11:57 AM Reply   
I see children in the photos. Where's your FAE?
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       05-11-2014, 3:23 PM Reply   
If the kids decide to try surfing this summer, which I think they will, I will build one.
Old    Charlie Zulu (Pad1Tai)      Join Date: Jan 2013       05-11-2014, 5:07 PM Reply   
Out of Wood?....
Old    FENCE SENCE (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-11-2014, 6:53 PM Reply   
That back seat is probably worse than being behind the boat.

Seriously dude. I can't recommend it highly enough.
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       05-12-2014, 5:44 AM Reply   
Ya. I'll build one out of wood. (Cause I'm that retarded) but yes fence I completely understand. Right now the whole back seat of the boat is unusable because of the sacks but I will get some stuff and get one going since no one makes em for my boat.
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       05-12-2014, 5:46 AM Reply   
Surf addict, great points. I never thought about making something for the surf side. I'm gonna give that a shot also. Thank you!
Old    FENCE SENCE (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-12-2014, 7:33 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by masongardner View Post
Ya. I'll build one out of wood. (Cause I'm that retarded) but yes fence I completely understand. Right now the whole back seat of the boat is unusable because of the sacks but I will get some stuff and get one going since no one makes em for my boat.
I had one of the first ones for my boat. I had to provide all my dimensions. Larry can make one for just about any boat. If you have a tape measure and a boat, chances are, you could have an FAE too.
Old     (Jed)      Join Date: Aug 2013       05-27-2014, 10:39 PM Reply   
Any new details on this DIY?
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       05-28-2014, 11:00 AM Reply   
sorry guys have been working a lot recently. Still playing with the gate a little bit and still have a very clean wave with not a lot of push. Headed out this weekend and I'm going to play with the weight some more and see what I can come up with. It's kind of frustrating because the gate definitely improved the wave just not the push.I am trying to avoid cutting down my swim deck just in case I decide I want a true surf boat this winter. Definite progress just not 100% success.
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       05-28-2014, 11:08 AM Reply   
don't cut up your swim platform, build a new one. You can build one out of 3/4" plywood (marine grade preferred and treat it with Thompsons water seal and paint it or whatever.
You can also build one out of textured HDPE instead, just make sure you do it out of 3/4"-1" thick as that will be what will support your weight.

We're still using the one I made last year out of two pieces of 7/16" OSB screwed together and treated. It was made as a prototype, but has served us well for longer than the few runs it was intended for.
Old     (Jed)      Join Date: Aug 2013       05-28-2014, 11:32 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by phathom View Post



We're still using the one I made last year out of two pieces of 7/16" OSB screwed together and treated. It was made as a prototype, but has served us well for longer than the few runs it was intended for.


Let's see some pics. I'm letting the whole DIY surf gate concept brew a little bit before I jump on board. I'd like to see as many as possible before I get started.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       05-28-2014, 12:36 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed View Post
Let's see some pics. I'm letting the whole DIY surf gate concept brew a little bit before I jump on board. I'd like to see as many as possible before I get started.
http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showt...light=Platform

We have since sealed it a little and added a closed cell foam pad.
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       05-28-2014, 1:03 PM Reply   
I might just have to hop on board and build a swim deck. I will get some pics this weekend and put some more up though the pics from the last clean wave pretty much where we are sitting right now.it's definitely surfable, the problem is you have to surf right on top of the swim deck.if I put weight in the bow to try to stretch the wave out it just washes out the wave.keep in mind that we are not experts surfers by any means the part of it may be that we just suck lol
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       05-28-2014, 1:13 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by masongardner View Post
I might just have to hop on board and build a swim deck. I will get some pics this weekend and put some more up though the pics from the last clean wave pretty much where we are sitting right now.it's definitely surfable, the problem is you have to surf right on top of the swim deck.if I put weight in the bow to try to stretch the wave out it just washes out the wave.keep in mind that we are not experts surfers by any means the part of it may be that we just suck lol
Looking at the pic of your platform, I would almost guarantee that you have a big lip that's cutting downwards into your surf wave. I did. It robbed us of much of our push. with the new platform it's no longer an issue.

now is that the ONLY thing that's robbing you of push? I don't know. But I'm pretty confident it's a contributing factor. It'll be easy to fab up a prototype like we did and find out. Then if you're still not having enough, adjust weight and speed. Push tends to be directly proportional to displacement...

G/L and report back.
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       06-08-2014, 6:54 AM Reply   
Ive been slacking recently. got out and got the wife started surfing so didn't have a whole lot of time to play with the wave. Going to build a gate this week for the Surfside but make it small and directly in line with the boat instead of out, trying to push the water back a little bit further around my swim deck maybe and push the pocket back a little. Supposed to be in the 90 is this weekend so I will definitely be out on Friday and Saturday and see how it goes. We definitely have a surf wake its just a super small pocket right behind the swim deck but it's tons of fun.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-08-2014, 8:51 AM Reply   
We went out yesterday and were weighted with a 370 under the rear seat, a 750 on the surfside floor, and another 80% full 750 on top of that with as much of it in the rear seat.

MORE than enough push. I could ride the pocket plenty far back. The platform not being in the wave was part of that.

I'll be going with a NSS type system over a surf gate type system I think though.
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       06-08-2014, 11:22 AM Reply   
The surf gate, even on the surf side pushes the water further back just by being in the stored position. I know the rounded corners of my boat ruin that so I think I am going to try to fix some of that. The "gate," I build is very helpful
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       06-21-2014, 9:17 AM Reply   
Well, its been a while since we have had any progress on the water but yesterday we hit the JACKPOT!!! Got to leave the kiddos behind and work on the wave with just my wife, my self and one friend. We landed on this configuration; 800lb tube sack dead center between the doghouse and the rear seat. 750 on the surf side of the doghouse and 300lbs or so of a 750 in the ski locker under the bow. "masongate," deployed on the non surf side of course. This wave was AMAZING!!! We have previously had maybe a 2 foot long pocket of surfability with some decent push, but this gave us a good 6 feet of surfing ropeless all day long. I will get some video and pics up. Keep in mind that we are newer wakesurfers and havent ridden behind any "real," surf boats, but for us, this wave is absolutely perfect. Only issue we were running into was keeping out speed without the boat bogging down. We ended up running about 600 more rpms than usual and according to my phone gps, we were right about 10.5 mph. All in all, a GREAT day with amazing surfing!!
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       06-21-2014, 9:31 AM Reply   
 photo jasonsurfingwave_zps3506ebe3.jpg
 photo IMG_1799_zps637dfd4c.jpg

 photo IMG_1800_zps81d8c30e.jpg

Here they are, not the best pics, but for a direct drive ski boat we had a sweet arse wave working for us. tons on push!!
Old     (Jed)      Join Date: Aug 2013       06-21-2014, 11:01 AM Reply   
Great news. Glad it's shaping up so nicely for you.
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       06-21-2014, 4:40 PM Reply   
Good deal. Today we got the SSS dialed in as well. 350 under rear seat, 750 non surf side by doghouse, what we thought was a 750, but now think is a 900 or 1110 on the surf side with the SSS out 2.5-3" gave us a pocket about 10 feet at a minimum and about 20 or so feet as a maximum with a lot of push throughout. Haven't done a full write up or pics yet, but I saw your post and figured we could share our successes.
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       06-21-2014, 5:19 PM Reply   
Awesome man!! I love the progress these direct drive are making. Seems like we are catching the vdrive waves! Surfing the "real," waves witout making the boat dangerously sunk is awesome and amazing! Nice job guys.
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       06-21-2014, 5:26 PM Reply   
http://s66.photobucket.com/user/maso...35a41.mp4.html
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       06-21-2014, 5:28 PM Reply   
tried to embed it, but it didnt work. Just clip of how good our wave was working for us. It doesnt look huge in the video but it was very big, at least for us, waist high at least!!
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-21-2014, 10:57 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by phathom View Post
Good deal. Today we got the SSS dialed in as well. 350 under rear seat, 750 non surf side by doghouse, what we thought was a 750, but now think is a 900 or 1110 on the surf side with the SSS out 2.5-3" gave us a pocket about 10 feet at a minimum and about 20 or so feet as a maximum with a lot of push throughout. Haven't done a full write up or pics yet, but I saw your post and figured we could share our successes.
Correction. We had a 750 on the Starboard side BUT the bag we had on the port side was actually a Rear Seat Sack 60 x 26 x 10 weight: 650 lbs.

I'd like to get another 750 to replace it with...
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       06-22-2014, 7:49 AM Reply   
So you actually had 100 lbs more on the non surf side? And it was still working for ya. Crazy, but awesome!
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       06-22-2014, 11:05 AM Reply   
Ya, that revelation was a shocker. Next time we go out we're going to switch them to have the 750 on the surf and the 650 on the non surf side to see if it can make it even better. That would be surprising because the wave is absolutely awesome right now and the boat is so easy and comfortable to drive.
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       06-22-2014, 5:57 PM Reply   
Ya. That's nice isint it? That's the only thing I don't like about the gate is that it hates turning port side. But it still does it. I think I talked my wife into selling our boat when the seasons done and trying to snatch up a a centurion avalanche.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-22-2014, 10:06 PM Reply   
My NSS type blades really don't hinder turning. I noticed it did turn a little better when turning toward the blade, but not enough to really make a difference for me.
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       06-23-2014, 5:26 AM Reply   
See. That would be really nice. I think I may have to build some of those on the"new" boat. Our just automate some surf gates. I really like the idea of switching sides mid surf in the air haha. Never ending projects man!

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