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Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-14-2014, 9:44 AM Reply   
71 Year old retired Police CAPTIN. Shoots 43 year old man sitting in front of him for texting in a Movie.

71 year old dude is sitting in a Movie that has not even started. The previews are being shown. Guy in front of him (43 year old father of 3 year old girl) is Texting. He is with his wife. Guy in back of him is upset that he is texting and the two get into a argument. The 71 year old guy pulls a gun. The wife places her hand in front of the gun the Man shoots a hole threw her hand and kills the husband.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/man-sho...spat-1.2495418

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/01/13...ater-shooting/
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Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       01-14-2014, 9:46 AM Reply   
and now the guy is in jail for murder.
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       01-14-2014, 9:46 AM Reply   
You would think out of anyone a retired cop would have the restraint not to do something stupid like this.
Old    Big D (bigdtx)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-14-2014, 10:58 AM Reply   
Do we have an age cutoff for conceal & carry? This old fogey was clearly not mentally qualified to be carrying.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       01-14-2014, 12:19 PM Reply   
I am pretty sure retired police can carry without permit(their retired badge is their permit). Not to make light of the incident, but I have gotten pretty damn mad in the movie theater before!!
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       01-14-2014, 12:28 PM Reply   
Not a good day for gun rights advocates. I'm pretty sure the point of allowing retired cops to carry guns is so that they can continue to protect. An unavoidable tragedy. Sometimes people just go crazy.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       01-14-2014, 12:35 PM Reply   
After reading the article above....it sounds like the victim became physical with the shooter. After throwing popcorn, he was struck with another "object"

Maybe the victim should have not been a dick. I'd like to retract my statement about the shooter going crazy.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       01-14-2014, 1:04 PM Reply   
Yeah, I believe there is more to this story. If the guy was threatening the man and he felt his life was "in Danger" he has the right to protect himself(this is according to the law). However, if this guy didn't have a gun, do you think it would have escalated so far? I often doubt, and it resulted in a man dead. One the flip side, the aggressor could have backed off as well.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       01-14-2014, 1:05 PM Reply   
Oh, and the other article I read stated the wife got hit in the hand because she was trying to pull her husband away.......
Old    Train (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       01-14-2014, 8:34 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
I am pretty sure retired police can carry without permit(their retired badge is their permit). Not to make light of the incident, but I have gotten pretty damn mad in the movie theater before!!
That is true. At least in california it is. As long as they left the force in good standing, their retired badge is their permit.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-15-2014, 3:58 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
After reading the article above....it sounds like the victim became physical with the shooter. After throwing popcorn, he was struck with another "object"

Maybe the victim should have not been a dick. I'd like to retract my statement about the shooter going crazy.
So allegedly "being a dick", justifies being shot and killed? You are a dick for saying that.
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-15-2014, 4:21 AM Reply   
This is what happens when you are angry about something else and don't deal with it. Then your anger pops out of your self imposed containment vessel and explodes over something as stupid as a movie preview. Often the person is not even conscious of what they are really mad about. Such a shame.
Old    Brian Stroup (bstroop)      Join Date: Apr 2005       01-15-2014, 6:33 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
So allegedly "being a dick", justifies being shot and killed? You are a dick for saying that.

And you sir are a dick for believing that is alright to get physical with an old man after an argument.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-15-2014, 6:43 AM Reply   
Were you there Brian? I don't think we yet know all of the details, but think about what Jarrod is saying. If it was acceptable in our society because they were "being a dick", I don't think there would be many people left. You are drawing conclusions from what I posted, I would suggest you revisit your reading comprehension skills. I never implied that "it is alright to get physical with an old man after an argument" (I guess if he was younger, you would say it's okay?), I did imply that I don't think it is acceptable for a guy to get shot for being a dick. Hopefully, this guy rots in jail, but in FL everything has turned into "Stand your ground" so he'll probably get off scott-free.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-15-2014, 7:37 AM Reply   
The shooter is toast. No way that this is going to justify "stand your ground". If it does the law will be under serious attack. This whole thing about whipping out a gun and shooting someone with no warning doesn't fly. This was clearly not an imminent threat situation.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-15-2014, 7:45 AM Reply   
My third sentence should read, "If it was acceptable in our society to shoot someone because they were "being a dick",...
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       01-15-2014, 7:52 AM Reply   
Jeremy, I bet there is more to this than a guy "being a dick" and getting shot. If the guy was attacking the old man and that is why his wife had to pull him off, he was justified in the shooting legally. Obviously, if it was just an argument with a threat, he went way too far.
Old    Brian Stroup (bstroop)      Join Date: Apr 2005       01-15-2014, 8:32 AM Reply   
Nope.....wasn't there, nor do I think it's acceptable to shoot someone unless it's purely in self defense.

It seems ok with you that the the guy was being a dick (to what level we don't know) and got physical, but not ok that it resulted in him getting shot.
Sure..... I drew conclusions on your comments because you left them to be made. My reading comprehension is ok.....maybe you should look at your delivery.

The part where you "never implied that its alright to get physical with an old man" is contradicted with the part where you "don't think it's acceptable to get shot for being a dick".

Can you please tell me where the line between the two is drawn?

Age plays no part in it for me......I just said old man because it was fitting in this discussion. Basically my point is that today's society often overlooks the initial actions of the victim and focuses solely on the outcome. Your response validates my point. Sure we weren't there and probably won't ever know the true circumstances. I would like to know where the line is drawn though.......because it seems that I should be able to physically assault people without fear of getting shot.

According
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       01-15-2014, 8:53 AM Reply   
Kinda sad that people can now be complete dicks and when its time to hand out an asskicking you can get shot for it.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       01-15-2014, 8:55 AM Reply   
What we need is more people carrying. If the guy being a dick had had a gun, this never would have happened.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-15-2014, 9:05 AM Reply   
Paul, that is speculation. I have read nothing where any witness has said that the older gentleman's life may have been in danger during this altercation.

Brian, my definition of "being a dick" does not mean you have to get physical. Say we work at the same place. I pass you in the hallway and you say "good morning" and I keep walking. To me, that fits the definition of being a dick. It doesn't require me to punch you in the face in order to fit that criteria. There is nothing contradictory in what I said, only in our disagreeing on the definition of "being a dick".

Of course, anytime someone uses a gun, Jarrod goes on the defense. He posted this on a thread last year about Sandy Hook:

"Does she realize that an "Assault weapon" was not used for the Newtown massacre? Wait, does she know that there WAS NO NEWTON MASSACRE and that it's entirely bull****?"
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       01-15-2014, 9:11 AM Reply   
This is all speculation on everyones part at this point. The problem lies with the fact that if there was an altercation the shooter only has to say that he was in fear for his life to make it a justified shooting. If they guy lunged, poked, or threw something at him, it will be hard to prove otherwise. If they were just exchanging words, then he will have a steep hill to climb to prove his innocence. Please keep in mind that I am not taking sides on this as of yet due to lack of facts.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       01-15-2014, 9:17 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
So allegedly "being a dick", justifies being shot and killed? You are a dick for saying that.

I don't think that I said that

My point was that you should careful about who you're going to F with. The guy was 70+ years old. He was being abused by a much younger guy who was getting physical with him. The old man shouldn't have pulled the trigger, but maybe the unknown details suggest that he really was in fear of being attacked.

Last edited by jarrod; 01-15-2014 at 9:21 AM. Reason: typo
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       01-15-2014, 9:17 AM Reply   
http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/gu...ocid=ansnews11

Appears he was assaulted by a bag of popcorn. I would have feared for my life as well........
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       01-15-2014, 9:26 AM Reply   
The first article suggests that we was struck a second time with an unknown object. For all we know, the media wants us to think the popcorn was the extent of it so that we'll be outraged. I'm guessing there's more to it.
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       01-15-2014, 9:29 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
What we need is more people carrying. If the guy being a dick had had a gun, this never would have happened.
I hope you're being sarcastic. How does that help the situation at all? They going to step outside and have a stand-off? Just going to put them away because they're evenly matched? I am not being a jerk, I would like to understand this logic if you're not being sarcastic.

If people want to sustain their gun rights and concealed carry rights, they need to start keeping their own "people" in check, and be more selective on who exactly gets those rights. I don't agree with the unavoidable tragedy argument, or as I've read elsewhere, he would have used any available weapon as he had gone crazy. As stated, no one knows, but assuming it was a shoot to kill, and after all this was over texting during the previews. Most logical explanation I've heard is, old retired captain was used to people following his orders, and when someone stood up against him and his orders, he wasn't sure how to react. I'm surprised the movie theatre isn't at major fault here for more or less allowing the issue to escalate. There really doesn't seem to be more to the story as some seem to hope, he's being held without bail, and has a 2nd degree murder charge. It was also enough to have an off-duty officer "restrain" him in the theatre.

I do have to ask, can a 3 year old text?

Unfortunately for some, bottom line is if he hadn't had a gun with him (yes, bring up Aurora, CO), no one would be dead. The rights of many are going to be dramatically effected by the lack of self control and actions of a few.
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       01-15-2014, 9:40 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
The first article suggests that we was struck a second time with an unknown object. For all we know, the media wants us to think the popcorn was the extent of it so that we'll be outraged. I'm guessing there's more to it.
You seem to be hoping if not expecting for that to be the case. What if it was just the popcorn? If you're carrying a hand-gun into a theatre, you're subconsciously expecting to need it at any time. To me that is the problem, all these people out there who think they need the protection, and justify it to themselves. If you get physically attacked in a movie theatre (with others present), what are your chances of morbidity/mortality? Now same question if you are attacked with a gun? The gun is not the problem, however the mentality of when to and who to use it, creates an issue with the gun.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-15-2014, 9:43 AM Reply   
Cops are trained from day 1 that everyone is out to kill them.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-15-2014, 9:48 AM Reply   
I've seen them consider a fly rod a deadly weapon.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-15-2014, 10:27 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
I don't think that I said that

My point was that you should careful about who you're going to F with. The guy was 70+ years old. He was being abused by a much younger guy who was getting physical with him. The old man shouldn't have pulled the trigger, but maybe the unknown details suggest that he really was in fear of being attacked.
This is what you posted:

"Maybe the victim should have not been a dick. I'd like to retract my statement about the shooter going crazy."

What am I missing here?
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-15-2014, 11:04 AM Reply   
I think what Jarrod was trying to say is "mess with the bull and you get the horns"
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       01-15-2014, 11:42 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by behindtheboat View Post
I hope you're being sarcastic. How does that help the situation at all? They going to step outside and have a stand-off? Just going to put them away because they're evenly matched? I am not being a jerk, I would like to understand this logic if you're not being sarcastic.
ding ding ding.
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       01-15-2014, 11:48 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
ding ding ding.
haha, word
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-15-2014, 12:16 PM Reply   
The needs of the individual gun owner to protect himself has to be weighed against the needs of the unarmed masses to be free of being shot over the gun owners delusions of his rights to stand his ground. What value is stand your ground if people can be murdered with no more evidence than "I was scared"? The fact is that someone can tell you that they are going to kill you and you'd better watch your back and you have almost no recourse against such a thing unless it's recorded, which might even be illegal itself. Protection from harm shouldn't be a contest to see who can become the best gunslinger.
Old    Patrick Castro (patrick232)      Join Date: Aug 2008       01-15-2014, 1:15 PM Reply   
I feel they both went too far, but at what point did each go to far. I have seen more than once someone ask others in the movie theater to stop talking or texting and it get out of hand quickly. Some people think they are ok doing as they want vs what is expected of them. Those are the ones that flip when they are asked to leave the movie. Sad someone is dead, but he could have said your right should not be texting and put the phone away.
Old    Jason Smith (snowslider76)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-15-2014, 1:47 PM Reply   
"Unfortunately for some, bottom line is if he hadn't had a gun with him (yes, bring up Aurora, CO), no one would be dead. The rights of many are going to be dramatically effected by the lack of self control and actions of a few."

I gotta call bs on 50% this for the simple fact the gun didn't kill this guy the shooter did. Someone came forward and said that they had a similar situation happen with the shooter a month earlier in a movie theater in Tampa. Do you think he decided to leave his gun at home that day? In my mind doubtful so a gun was there and no one died.

The shooter was detained by an off duty deputy, I don't know if he was carrying, of course the media isn't printing it if he was they are just saying he subdued him because that looks better. The deputy has taken some time off and hasn't spoken to the media yet. Where will the anti-gun crowd be if he subdued the shooter at gun point? So quite possibly two guns in this theater, one used to kill one used to save lives. Either way I'm thankful this guy was there.

This is why the anit-gun crowd drives me crazy! They can't see it wasn't the gun that killed this poor guy and left a 3 year old fatherless it was a human acting on impulse, nothing more scary then that. But yet they want to take away my right to protect myself and my family against people like that, to me it's mind numbing.

So do I own guns, yes for sport and home protection and I also have my conceal and carry permit. Have I ever carried my gun in public? Nope never, not even once, I'm not fanatically scared of public places, I'm not a trained gun fighter, solider, peace officer or hero. If I'm out somewhere and gunfire breaks out I'm grabbing my loved ones and running in the other gd direction, I'll leave it up to the combat trained to run in the direction of fire. I have my conceal and carry because when the anit-gun crowd gets their way that will be the first right to go and I want to be grandfathered in if it will make a difference.

Do I feel the need to have a gun for home protection? Honestly, barely. If someones life is so desperate they need to break in my house and steal my valuables they can have them, they need them more then I do. For one I have insurance it's all replaceable but more importantly I don't want to live the rest of my life shooting someone over a flat screen.

As discussed with my wifey in the case of a break in we have a plan. I run and lock the bedroom door, she grabs the gun case under the bed and we head to the master bath where we again lock the door. You come through both of those doors you are getting put down because you are there for more then my TV. That's what anti-gun takes away, my right to self protection from the guy who's broken in, kicked down two doors and is harming my family.

Before you jump on anit-gun do some research, most legal American gun owners are just like me, don't leave me and my wife dead on the bathroom floor.

As pro-gun regarding the theater shooting, from what I have read it looks pretty unjustified and the shooter acted exactly like the type of ahole who is going to effect my rights.
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       01-15-2014, 2:03 PM Reply   
You bring up some great points and arguments, especially regarding media bias and info not given. I'm not anti-gun, I hope that you can continue to protect yourself and your family. My point is, if you want to keep that right and freedom, instead of defending the guy, the gun and the situation, "pro-gun" people need to regulate themselves, or as you state it is going to effect your rights. You are a responsible gun owner, and most are. What is scary is the mentality that comes with the right to conceal carry, and as we have both stated, it is likely a minority of those that are actually carrying. To me it still comes down to the mentality of carrying a gun into a theatre, or anywhere. That person is ready and willing, sometimes itching to use it, and to me, that's not acceptable.
Old    Jason Smith (snowslider76)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-15-2014, 2:33 PM Reply   
I'm in 100% agreement to that and wasn't really disagreeing with you just pointing out "the no gun" argument. I'm sure not defending this guy if anything as a pro-gun I'm disappointed in his actions that led to this circumstance. If anyone should know when to use excessive force it should have been this guy he was police and combat trained. It worries the crap out of me that if we can't trust an ex-officer to carry who can we trust. Over thrown popcorn and texting, have some self control know when to be a man a walk away.

I'm not sure what the conceal and carry classes are like in other states, I'm in MN they are pretty strict here to my knowledge. Any decent person who goes through them is pretty much scared to wits end about ever picking up a gun let alone toting one around. They aren't teaching gun slinging techniques they are driving home life changes consequences should it ever come out. I would be all for the class in the public school system, not so we can arm students but so they can get scared s**tless about pointing gun at someone in the real world vs a video game you hit rest on.I wouldn't actually want to see them get their permits just sit through it.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-15-2014, 2:39 PM Reply   
No one ever see stories of one punch kills? Does the 71 year old need to take a punch before he defends himself? Assault is the posturing before the battery occurs and you can defend yourself against assault.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-15-2014, 2:43 PM Reply   
The retired cop will not be prosecuted.
Old    Jason Smith (snowslider76)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-15-2014, 3:04 PM Reply   
One punch kills? Like in Mortal Kombat? lol

Everyone keeps pointing out this guys age, 71 is a lot different then 95 in a walker, he looks able bodied enough to me but that's not really the point. I agree with A-dub that this guy probably made some decisions about his gun use long before this incident.

You absolutely have the right to defend yourself, just like you'll have the right to stand up in court and defend yourself that you shot someone in the chest in self defense after they threw popcorn at you. The best part is you get to argue that to 12 people too stupid to get out of jury duty.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-15-2014, 3:07 PM Reply   
His age vs age of assailant does play a roll, but age is irrelevant for the most part.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-15-2014, 3:10 PM Reply   
Since your life experience consists of mortal combat games I'll assume you are just unaware of reality.

Last edited by bftskir; 01-15-2014 at 3:12 PM.
Old    E.J. (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-15-2014, 3:18 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
Kinda sad that people can now be complete dicks and when its time to hand out an asskicking you can get shot for it.
Prophetic.

Provoke, antagonize. bait....then pull a gun to "protect."
Old    Jason Smith (snowslider76)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-15-2014, 3:19 PM Reply   
Excellent assumption, well thought out and articulated.
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       01-15-2014, 7:15 PM Reply   
Sounds like a bit of an overreaction. What was the movie, Gran Torino?
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-15-2014, 7:27 PM Reply   
Article said Last Survivor
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-15-2014, 8:17 PM Reply   
That's Lone Survivor



Details differ on most of the reports.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014...e-sheriff?lite
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       01-15-2014, 11:29 PM Reply   
Mr. Reeves will never see freedom again and rightfully so. I'm pissed off at rude people almost every time I go to a theater but I'm not shooting anyone over it. Seeing the picture of the victim and his family makes it even more sad.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       01-16-2014, 7:16 AM Reply   
"One punch kills? Like in Mortal Kombat? lol"

Yes it can. I guy I knew pretty well in College tried to break up a bar fight, got hit and died. You have no right to assault someone, and when you do, you put life at danger. Now, I don't really think that gives you the right to pop someone, but there are different circumstances to every rule.

and I would absolutely carry in a theater. Not to keep people from texting, but for that .001% chance someone decides to go bat S. crazy. The only way I would pull a gun out is if someone else had one out.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-16-2014, 9:40 AM Reply   
The punch just knocks them out...it's the head hitting the ground that kills.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-16-2014, 9:41 AM Reply   
It's actually fairly common.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-16-2014, 9:52 AM Reply   
As a retired cop he will be able to demonstrate that his training took over and he simply defended himself from an attack and stopped the threat.

The lesson is when someone asks you to stop texting in a movie theater don't be a jerk just stop. It can end badly for you even with your wife trying to hold you back from trying to beat down an old man because he asked you to stop. Takes maturity to stop and think wait I have my wife and daughter to think about.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-16-2014, 10:47 AM Reply   
^Dude, he's been retired for 20 years and before he retired, he was a captain on the police force. I don't think he was doing much during the last few years of his time as a cop that put him in harm's way. And besides, a police officer's first instinct isn't to blow someone away when they feel threatened.

Besides, the ex-cop could have been being a jerk as well. Yes, the guy shouldn't have been texting in the movie, but that's no reason to lose your life.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-16-2014, 2:07 PM Reply   
He didn't blow him away he stopped the threat...cops don't shoot to kill ever...they shoot to stop the threat.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-16-2014, 2:09 PM Reply   
Two to the body one to the head
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-16-2014, 2:11 PM Reply   
He used alot of restraint to only fire 1, but I did see his .380 might have jammed.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-16-2014, 2:16 PM Reply   
Check out YouTube for police being shot...there's one in TX where the cop just shouts commands at a guy who pulls out a .30 carbine...loads it and shoots the cop dead. Every cop has seen it. And many more. You react or die.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-16-2014, 2:34 PM Reply   
In this case... you react and go to jail. My money is on a trial and conviction.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-16-2014, 3:35 PM Reply   
Anchor, you are comparing apples to dinosaurs. The guy was a "RETIRED cop". But thank you for the totally unrelated information about police officers you keep posting. For us to get the same knowledge, we would have to watch a "police-themed" movie and get all of this stuff ourselves.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       01-16-2014, 5:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bftskir View Post
He didn't blow him away he stopped the threat...cops don't shoot to kill ever...they shoot to stop the threat.
The question for the jury is going to be "the threat of what?"
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-16-2014, 5:36 PM Reply   
No not gonna learn it from a police themed movie or TV. Try 31 weeks of police academy training.+
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-16-2014, 5:42 PM Reply   
I'd even add that the theater management may have some civil liability for their inaction when informed of a problem by the retired officer.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       01-16-2014, 10:21 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bftskir View Post
No not gonna learn it from a police themed movie or TV. Try 31 weeks of police academy training.+
dang dude you watched a lot of police academy. I usually burn out by police academy 2.
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       01-17-2014, 12:32 AM Reply   
The three parts to a self defense case are
Opportunity
Ability
and Jeopardy

If all 3 of these conditions are met, you are in the clear to use whatever means necessary to defend yourself. For the following I will assume the defense and that the man in front of him was the attacker.
Opportunity - Did the attacker have the opportunity to inflict serious bodily or lethal harm? In this case, he was the next row up and in close enough proximity that he could.
Ability - Did the attacker have the ability to inflict serious bodily or lethal harm? This normally comes about as them brandishing a deadly weapon. However this is not the only factor. If there are multiple unarmed attackers, this would be met. Also it depends on who the victim is and who the attacker is. If the victim is a frail old man, a younger in shape person does have the ability to, based on physical attributes and ability to inflict more damage unarmed.
Jeopardy - Did they place your life or physical well being in jeopardy? This can be a threat that is visibly backed up and can be read by their behavoir.

All of these have to be met, examples of them not would be

Opportunity and Ability met, but not jeopardy = Someone is open carrying a pistol in your general vicinity. They have the opportunity and ability, but there is no threat or actions that read they will do so.
Opportunity and Jeopardy met, but not Ability = Young kid is next to you yelling out curses and threatening to kick your butt. They have the opportunity as they are right next to you, they have threatened you and may have started on an attack, but due to your physical build and the fact he's 10 and unarmed, he does not have the ability, try as he might.
Ability and Jeopardy are met, but not Opportunity = Guy on other side of the road behind a fence has a knife, and is pissed off yelling threats at you, trying to overtake the fence.

All 3 of those have to be met to be able to claim self defense.

Now those same scenarios with all 3,
The guy open carrying a pistol in your vicinity is irrate and reaches or shows his gun in a way that could be inferred he is drawing it. Jeopardy is now met.
The kid starts his attack and then pulls out a knife he had concealed. Ability is now met.
The guy successfully scales the fence and charges to you to attack before you could get clear of him. Opportunity is now met.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is just because the guy was unarmed, doesn't mean the older guy didn't genuinely fear for his life in that situation.
Without being there, I can't say how it happened, but here is that scenario and how it could have happened.
Guy1:Put your phone away, we're in a movie
Guy2:Shut up, it hasn't started yet
Guy1:The sign says put your phone away, put it away
Guy2:What are you going to do, make me? *Stands up, turns around*
Guy1:Just sit down and put your phone away
Guy2:Why don't you mind your damn business, *goes to strike at or grab guy 1*
Wife:Tries to pull Guy2 Back from attacking Guy1
Guy1:Being older and weaker, sees his life being threatened *pulls gun*
Wife:*Grabs gun*
Guy1:Sees her grab gun, seen as an aggressive move *pulls trigger*

In that situation, since a well placed punch to the head, could result in severe bodily damage or death to Guy1, he would have been justified in using lethal force to defend himself.

Once again, I was not there, and without all the details, which will be heard by a jury of his peers, I cannot say what happened, but that is a situation where it would be justified.
They will be asked if they believe all 3 elements were present at that time, and also if any other reasonable person, in that same scenario would have done the same thing. With any shooting, no matter how seemingly cut and dry or complex and confusing, there will be a trial that asks these questions. Just because he has been arrested, does not mean he is guilty. With 90% of shootings, even justified ones, the shooter will be arrested even if they are later released and not charged.
There will be a criminal trial, even if he gets aquitted there, there may still be a civil trial if the family decides to sue him personally for damages. Being a retired police officer, he may also be reviewed by a shooting board.

In any event, this is a sad situation. I just hate to see people jump on the band wagon one way or another without all the facts or knowledge on how the system works and what self defense laws are.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-17-2014, 6:08 AM Reply   
What's wrong with jumping on a bandwagon? The shooters fate doesn't rest in our hands. However, we might be concerned if the law allows people to shoot others on a whim of "He's mad, he's as big as me, it's possible he could kill me with one punch, and I'm scared". Which pretty much meets the criteria as you explained it.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-17-2014, 10:26 AM Reply   
Surf Addict nice job of splainin.
Old    Big D (bigdtx)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-17-2014, 10:47 AM Reply   
So let me get this straight...

A 71 year old guy carrying a concealed weapon goes into a movie theater.
He gets into a confrontation with another patron over a text message that was being sent during the previews - not during the movie itself. Any bets on who started the confrontation?
Guy decides he's outraged enough over this minor incident to leave the theater and notify a manager (did he ever find a manager?).
Then he goes back into the theater and re-engages the other patron again (why would he do this?) and gets a bag of popcorn thrown at him.
At this point pawpaw pow pow decides he's in life threatening danger and pulls out a gun and kills the other person.

And we have people defending this guy??

This is just like George Zimmerman to me -

Guy has delusions of grandeur.
Ignores (or fails to ask for) direction on how to handle the situation.
Decides to confront another private citizen - in this case the guy was sitting in his movie seat.
Kills the other person who was unarmed and not engaged in any criminal activity.

Both claim they were the victim.

You can't go around killing people and using "I feared for my life" as an excuse. I fear for my life daily when I get on the freeway but that doesn't give me the right to open fire on the guy that just cut me off in traffic - although based on some of the comment's I've read it seems like a lot of people would be just fine with that.

Unbelievable.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-17-2014, 11:12 AM Reply   
Um is George Zimmerman in prison?
Old    Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       01-17-2014, 11:13 AM Reply   
Sad situation.

I'm a firm believer in you never know who youre messing with. About 14-15 years ago, got a pretty good beat down in college by a 110lb asian guy, lol. All I remember is him taking his flip flops off.....learned my lesson pretty quick.

Now....u wanna text at the movies...go for it...if it bothers me I'll move. you wanna cut me off in traffic...go for it...i got brakes. I do as much as I can to avoid confrontation with strangers. It's my f*cked up view on society...that I have alot more to lose than the "other guy".
Old    Big D (bigdtx)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-17-2014, 11:26 AM Reply   
>Um is George Zimmerman in prison?

He should be. He'll kill again or somebody will kill him in a confrontation. He has a long history of violence.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-17-2014, 11:35 AM Reply   
I agree 100% George should have gone to prison. This current case does have some similarities but also some very big differences.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-17-2014, 12:39 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bftskir View Post
... but also some very big differences.
like witnesses.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-17-2014, 1:13 PM Reply   
^Bingo.
Old    Darrel F (95sn)      Join Date: Sep 2005       01-17-2014, 1:32 PM Reply   
Quote:
Guy1:Put your phone away, we're in a movie
Guy2:Shut up, it hasn't started yet
Guy1:The sign says put your phone away, put it away
Guy2:What are you going to do, make me? *Stands up, turns around*
Guy1:Just sit down and put your phone away
Guy2:Why don't you mind your damn business, *goes to strike at or grab guy 1*
Wife:Tries to pull Guy2 Back from attacking Guy1
Guy1:Being older and weaker, sees his life being threatened *pulls gun*
Wife:*Grabs gun*
Guy1:Sees her grab gun, seen as an aggressive move *pulls trigger*
At any point before pulling out a gun, why not just walk away? Any rational person w/ or w/o a gun should. Its a story because it is ridiculas IMO.

[QUOTE][/Now....u wanna text at the movies...go for it...if it bothers me I'll move. you wanna cut me off in traffic...go for it...i got brakes. I do as much as I can to avoid confrontation with strangers. It's my correct view on society...that I have alot more to lose than the "other guy". QUOTE]
FIFY.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       01-17-2014, 1:33 PM Reply   
There were witnesses.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-17-2014, 1:49 PM Reply   
The off duty deputy might be a great witness. Both cases have witnesses.
Old    Clubjoe (clubjoe)      Join Date: Sep 2005       01-21-2014, 8:53 AM Reply   
Gosh, I hope the old guy got to see the rest of the movie...... He's probably on a limited income, and movies are sooo expensive these days.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-22-2014, 8:42 AM Reply   
Wonder if he'll have the balls to get b*tchy in the prison theater with no gun in his pocket.

Quote:
Police said despite Reeves' claim that he was in fear for his safety, this was not a case for Florida's "stand your ground" defense.

"Working with the state attorney's office it was determined that stand-your-ground does not fly here in this case," Nocco (Sheriff) said.

Authorities said a preliminary investigation determined that there was no physical contact during the incident. It was popcorn, thrown by Oulson, that struck Reeves.

Tepper (Judge) said there was no evidence to support the claim that the shooter was a victim. She denied him bond.
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       01-22-2014, 6:19 PM Reply   
All that hostility - BEFORE THE DAMN MOVIE - Man that movie makes you want to fight someone! so I would have understood that once the Taliban is going after Marky mark - than you want to shoot someone.

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