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Old    John Martar (davesetter)      Join Date: Jan 2014       01-09-2014, 9:43 AM Reply   
I'm confused. I thought Malibu Surfgate was a patented design and therefore could not be duplicated. Now I see almost every major boat brand has a version. Maybe version is the key word. Was Malibu the first? If so, does anyone now what the other boat builders do different to circumvent the patent. Finally, has anyone surfed behind the different surf systems. I would be interested to know the pros and cons of each and which is the best.
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       01-09-2014, 10:58 AM Reply   
Malibu was the first to patent. They have are currently in the process of suing Correct Craft for NSS on the Nauitque. The outcome of that case will likely affect the state of the surf systems on other boats as well.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       01-09-2014, 11:04 AM Reply   
They won't win.
Old    John Ansorge (Ansorge10)      Join Date: Oct 2013       01-09-2014, 11:08 AM Reply   
Every time im see jet ranger on this site I just think to myself, you're opinions are as useful as Helen Keller with a iPad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       01-09-2014, 11:22 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetRanger View Post
They won't win.
A friend of mine is a patent attorney. Her opinion is the opposite. She took a look at the Malibu patent and she thinks they have a good shot of winning it.

IMO, I hope they'll work out a licensing agreement so that the innovation can continue.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       01-09-2014, 11:22 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansorge10 View Post
Every time im see jet ranger on this site I just think to myself, you're opinions are as useful as Helen Keller with a iPad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Here's something useful for you...

People will take your more seriously if you learn which "your" to use. I think that happens in grade 2.

Thanks for coming out champ!
Old    Nikolas Dramountanis (Greeko)      Join Date: May 2013       01-09-2014, 11:43 AM Reply   
I'm likely to agree with Ansorge10 ... Forums are not really a breeding ground for Grammatically correct English anyway...
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       01-09-2014, 12:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greeko View Post
I'm likely to agree with Ansorge10 ... Forums are not really a breeding ground for Grammatically correct English anyway...
You're communicating via typed words. It's not unreasonable to expect people to use proper grammar as best they can.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       01-09-2014, 12:23 PM Reply   
To the Op, based on my experience, NSS is the best system, however I have not tried Supra's or MC's. The only thing we know to be definitive fact is that Tige does not have a surf system and that "there is no replacement for displacement."

To all the people who don't like me: I don't like you, except Robert, I like him.
Old    John Ansorge (Ansorge10)      Join Date: Oct 2013       01-09-2014, 12:33 PM Reply   
I never said I was above the 2nd grade so what does it matter?


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Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-09-2014, 12:41 PM Reply   
That will definitely be an interesting lawsuit. Will Nautique go after Moomba as well? Moomba's system is basically a manual version of NSS.
Old    Charlie Zulu (Pad1Tai)      Join Date: Jan 2013       01-09-2014, 1:02 PM Reply   
"there is no replacement for displacement"..

I'd have to agree with the ranger on this one.... The new systems "tune" the wake and clean it up but don't make it any bigger..

If we all want gramatically correct posts, we'll have to get Da Moose in on this.....
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       01-09-2014, 1:10 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyb View Post
That will definitely be an interesting lawsuit. Will Nautique go after Moomba as well? Moomba's system is basically a manual version of NSS.
Did they file for a patent on NSS?
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       01-09-2014, 1:37 PM Reply   
I third that statement..." There is no replacement for displacement" !!!
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       01-09-2014, 2:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv420 View Post
I third that statement..." There is no replacement for displacement" !!!

Agreed, everything else is merely conjecture and supposition!
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-09-2014, 3:07 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
Did they file for a patent on NSS?
Actually, it doesn't look like it. I thought they had:
http://www.nautique.com/models/nauti...f-system?id=93
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-09-2014, 3:08 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv420 View Post
I third that statement..." There is no replacement for displacement" !!!
Malibu Wedge doesn't think so.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       01-09-2014, 3:10 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyb View Post
Malibu Wedge doesn't think so.

Doesn't the wedge draw the transom deeper into the water thus increasing displacement? Someone correct me if I'm wrong...
Old    Nick Wiersema (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       01-09-2014, 4:25 PM Reply   
Depends on what you are talking about, as far as systems. As indicated above, Malibu was the first to receive a patent, but not necessarily first. There are a handful of systems out there in use by other manufactures that could be interpreted as floating into the Malibu patent, but there are just as many systems out there that are virtually nothing like the bu system in form and function. Patent doesn't prevent another manufacture from developing and implementing something similar. It is up to the patent holder to legally protect their rights, as Malibu may or may not be doing at this point. Surfgate, NSS, moomba 'cattle gate', etc., these are all what some refer to as 'salad plate' add-ons. Not much to them, and similar structures have been bolted on to boats by owners for many years.

I have driven, ridden or been in the boat watching other riders on most systems. There are a lot of systems out there and some really nice ones. I have my top 3 in my head, and the systems do not necessarily correlate with my top 3 boats.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       01-09-2014, 5:01 PM Reply   
Malibu was the First i think we all can agree. The real question is "Are they the Best"? Let's discuss this further.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       01-09-2014, 5:03 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
Malibu was the First i think we all can agree. The real question is "Are they the Best"? Let's discuss this further.

Malibu the first? If we want to get technical MC was first. You know who doesn't have a horse in the rave yet? Ti-guh!
Old    Mike (zimme)      Join Date: Feb 2013       01-09-2014, 5:17 PM Reply   
Mastercraft has had surf tabs for many years prior to malibus surf gate. Not the same idea, but bu basically elaborated on a "surf tab".

Sent from my Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk.
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       01-09-2014, 6:04 PM Reply   
Mastercraft's original surf tab didn't allow surfing with an evenly weighted boat.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       01-09-2014, 6:11 PM Reply   
I won't mention any names but professional surfers prefer a listed boat no matter who the manufacturer is. They agree the listed boat has more push and a longer pocket.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       01-09-2014, 6:16 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
I won't mention any names but professional surfers prefer a listed boat no matter who the manufacturer is. They agree the listed boat has more push and a longer pocket.

No replacement for displacement we all stipulate that...
Old    Corson Piper (piper907)      Join Date: Dec 2011       01-09-2014, 6:45 PM Reply   
I really like my Switchblade and IMO there is no replacement for displacement. My blade is a good replacement for about 2500lbs worth of displacement... and Pivotal Designs has been around for a while. I don't know who was first, but I had my blade for two years before I heard about surfgate or NSS or Pavati's NSS.

Last edited by piper907; 01-09-2014 at 6:47 PM. Reason: Checking for spelling and grammar ;)
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       01-09-2014, 7:17 PM Reply   
There is nothing like displacement and it knows no replacement.
Old     (Ttime41)      Join Date: Nov 2011       01-09-2014, 9:44 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
I won't mention any names but professional surfers prefer a listed boat no matter who the manufacturer is. They agree the listed boat has more push and a longer pocket.
Until Tige comes out with a surf system, then you'll start singing the evenly weighted praise like it's your job!
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       01-10-2014, 3:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttime41 View Post
Until Tige comes out with a surf system, then you'll start singing the evenly weighted praise like it's your job!
Limited minds read what they can comprehend. I stated a listed boat has more push and a longer pocket REGARDLESS of the Manufacturer.Try it one more time and read SLOWLY.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       01-10-2014, 5:17 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
Mastercraft's original surf tab didn't allow surfing with an evenly weighted boat.
It did if you were only using stock ballast. (on some hulls..... X25, X30, X2) More so on the '12 and later boats, as they had bigger tabs. That being said, nobody wanted to surf with just stock weight.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       01-10-2014, 5:36 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
Limited minds read what they can comprehend. I stated a listed boat has more push and a longer pocket REGARDLESS of the Manufacturer.Try it one more time and read SLOWLY.

So what you're saying is that there is no replacement for displacement?
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-10-2014, 8:09 AM Reply   
Didn't Sanger have surf tabs first?
Old    John Martar (davesetter)      Join Date: Jan 2014       01-10-2014, 8:56 AM Reply   
I bought a MKZ with surf gate in November and only got to ride behind it once before it got too cold to ride. The biggest difference I could see between it's wake and my listed VLX was that the swell was bigger and more parallel to the boat path. This was without my uninstalled plug and play ballast.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       01-10-2014, 9:11 AM Reply   
Who was first to patent "there is no replacement for displacement?"
Old    John Martar (davesetter)      Join Date: Jan 2014       01-10-2014, 10:36 AM Reply   
Sorry...I meant perpendicular not parallel.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-10-2014, 11:26 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetRanger View Post
Who was first to patent "there is no replacement for displacement?"
GM in the 50's with the 409?
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       01-10-2014, 11:36 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
Limited minds read what they can comprehend. I stated a listed boat has more push and a longer pocket REGARDLESS of the Manufacturer.Try it one more time and read SLOWLY.
The great part is you can still list a surfgate boat if you want, or you can use the gates. Many more options than a boat without a surf system.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       01-10-2014, 12:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
The great part is you can still list a surfgate boat if you want, or you can use the gates. Many more options than a boat without a surf system.
I totally agree a listed boat makes a better wave. You also have more options with a unlisted wave.You choose a better wave or a surfable wave all on the same boat.
Old     (SecretSquirrel)      Join Date: Jan 2014       01-10-2014, 12:14 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
The great part is you can still list a surfgate boat if you want, or you can use the gates. Many more options than a boat without a surf system.
Listing a boat with surfgate defeats the freaking purpose of surfgate. You end up with a short, soft, tall wave on the off surf side. Rendering switching sides "on the fly" irrelevant. It takes a freaking savant to be able to switch sides "on the fly" with the boat listed to one side or the other.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       01-10-2014, 12:27 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel View Post
Listing a boat with surfgate defeats the freaking purpose of surfgate. You end up with a short, soft, tall wave on the off surf side. Rendering switching sides "on the fly" irrelevant. It takes a freaking savant to be able to switch sides "on the fly" with the boat listed to one side or the other.
You don't use the surfgate when you list it. You can list it if you want a different type of wave.
Old    John Ansorge (Ansorge10)      Join Date: Oct 2013       01-10-2014, 12:55 PM Reply   
If someone wants to drop the money on one of these boats let them list the boat with the gate if that's what they want. Maybe switching sides on the fly isn't what they are going for. Maybe the wanted it because of how easy it makes setting up for surfing.


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Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       01-10-2014, 1:26 PM Reply   
He meant that if you list the boat, you would NOT deploy the gate. Some people still prefer a listed boat, even with the gate.

At this point, buying a malibu without surfgate would destroy resale value. You may also go out on the boat with a group of newbies that want to learn, and in that case it's probably easier to just use surfgate so you can switch sides easily for different people or whatever. Point is, you have more options.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       01-10-2014, 1:29 PM Reply   
The big thing is you have the option for both. Surfgate is huge for me since I'm goofy and I hated waiting to switch the ballast, plus you couldn't get as many people on the starboard side sets, so you never had the kind of weight you had port. I've ridden the LSV both listed and with surfgate and on the goofy wave it's actually better with surfgate. So we can list or we can gate, that's the big plus of having them.
Old     (SecretSquirrel)      Join Date: Jan 2014       01-10-2014, 1:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
The big thing is you have the option for both. Surfgate is huge for me since I'm goofy and I hated waiting to switch the ballast, plus you couldn't get as many people on the starboard side sets, so you never had the kind of weight you had port. I've ridden the LSV both listed and with surfgate and on the goofy wave it's actually better with surfgate. So we can list or we can gate, that's the big plus of having them.
Just get a Centurion then if you're that guy. RAMFILL, CATS, Deep-V hull. Boom done. Unless you think you're that guy who's going to switch sides "on the fly". Have fun with that.
Old    Supreme Device (rullery)      Join Date: Jul 2012       01-10-2014, 1:53 PM Reply   
Is switching sides on the fly more a novelty than an important feature? You see it all the time on the videos, and it looks cool, but then what?
Old     (SecretSquirrel)      Join Date: Jan 2014       01-10-2014, 2:10 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by rullery View Post
Is switching sides on the fly more a novelty than an important feature? You see it all the time on the videos, and it looks cool, but then what?
Yes, It's not all it's cracked up to be. If it was a huge deal wouldn't the "pro surfers" be migrating to the "wake shaping device" boats?
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-10-2014, 2:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel View Post
Yes, It's not all it's cracked up to be. If it was a huge deal wouldn't the "pro surfers" be migrating to the "wake shaping device" boats?
They will surf behind anything you GIVE them.
Old    Tristan Dietrich (loudelectronics)      Join Date: Sep 2013       01-16-2014, 7:54 AM Reply   
There is no replacement for displacement as Jet Ranger suggests.

Tige has the first patented wave shaping device. Its called TAPS2 with convex V. This allows you to shape the wake from mellow to steep. Use with speed and you can change pocket length. Further to this and not sure why people dismiss the Convex VX. This is the first and only patented device used in the industry to actually enhance the wave itself. Using the principle that there is no replacement for displacement, the VX is the only surf system made to channel the displaced water into a longer wake. No other device (NSS, Surfgate) enhances (size and length) the wave. Last I checked when surfing you wanted to have the most useable wave and the VX is the only one to do such a thing.

Yes the other systems allow for switching sides on the fly, but that is it. They do not enhance the wake length or size (no replacement for displacement), they are simply there for convenience of switching sides, cleaning up the lip and smoke and mirrors. Great to have when you have riders that are not all the same foot forward and also for teaching newbies. When you are ready to rip it up and want a serious wake, there is no replacement for displacement and how that displacement is channeled into a solid wake.

The big 3 were scrambling to get into the surfing game so they needed to release these gadgets to have something. Tige, Centurion, MB, Supreme all have superior wakesurf wakes with minimal gadgets. Just sink them down and go. Simple, cheap and still cant be beat. You can buy anyone one of these late model boats in the 2003-20011 range for good value and will still put out a wake better than anyone of the boats with these special surf systems. Just have to pull up the dress and start chucking sacs. It is just much easier to flip a switch and watch it on a fancy touch screen.

Don't get me wrong, I like all the advancements companies are putting out. They have there place but it is just a start. Me as a surfer could care less about switching on the fly. Me as an instructor though sees great value in switching on the fly when you never know what footed person you might get. I still do prefer ballast and wedges to sink the boat down over anything else though.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       01-16-2014, 9:13 AM Reply   
^^^

Ti-guh first to (there is no replacement for displacement) market with wake shaping device? I thought MC was with surf tabs? Tige only wake shaping device on market? MC Gen 2, Supra Swell, Nautique (there is no replacement for displacement) NSS, etc...
There is no replacement for displacement? There is no replacement for displacement.

This is the most laughable Tige pump in history. We are all rendered stupider by having read it. Convex VX is a joke in (there is no replacement for displacement) every way imaginable.

You said one thing right though when referring to Tige, Centurion, Supreme, and MB...you said "just sink them."
That's right, scuttle those sucker skiffs and buy from the Big Three! Just don't scuttle the Ti-guh in an environmentally sensitive area as it will not grow barnacles or coral which is ever so important to the biodiversity of aquatic ecosystems.

Klink (sound of a well-stuck fastball)!
Old    Supreme Device (rullery)      Join Date: Jul 2012       01-16-2014, 9:37 AM Reply   
*Cue salty SecretSquirrel comment

Jet, please continue to humor us on why specifically Tiguh's VX is a joke thanks
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       01-16-2014, 1:27 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by rullery View Post
*Cue salty SecretSquirrel comment

Jet, please continue to humor us on why specifically Tiguh's VX is a joke thanks

A joke as per Wikipedia is something done, written or said with humorous intention.

That specific enough?

"When it comes to displacement there can be no replacement"
-Mastercraft Engineer

Last edited by JetRanger; 01-16-2014 at 1:32 PM.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       01-16-2014, 3:41 PM Reply   
I don't mind a listed boat because my wife is Regular and I'm Goofy. I surf on whichever side is set up. That's called challenging yourself. Any boat i ride on i ride Regular or Goofy and Backside or Frontside. I guess i'm preparing for switching on the fly.Challenge yourself and you to won't mind which side is filled up. And yes i do prefer a longer pocket.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-16-2014, 3:57 PM Reply   
I think he was talking about their hull design, Convex V. Not the new convex vx device that they have come out with recently.
Old     (SecretSquirrel)      Join Date: Jan 2014       01-16-2014, 4:31 PM Reply   
I really like Tige's hull design, its arguably the most versatile hull design out there. That's never been an issue in my book. You can reference THIS THREAD if you really want to go down that road. Posted by Tige owners themselves on the Tige Owners forum. I can't say it any better then you guys did.

You want to talk about a one trick pony hull design. Look no further than Mastercrap. Great boat for tubing.


Last edited by SecretSquirrel; 01-16-2014 at 4:38 PM.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       01-16-2014, 7:03 PM Reply   
^Great thread, goes to show Tiguh can't even copy a hull right.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-17-2014, 8:40 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel View Post
You want to talk about a one trick pony hull design. Look no further than Mastercrap. Great boat for tubing.
Old     (Ttime41)      Join Date: Nov 2011       01-17-2014, 8:51 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
I don't mind a listed boat because my wife is Regular and I'm Goofy. I surf on whichever side is set up. That's called challenging yourself. Any boat i ride on i ride Regular or Goofy and Backside or Frontside. I guess i'm preparing for switching on the fly.Challenge yourself and you to won't mind which side is filled up. And yes i do prefer a longer pocket.
The real question here is can the Tige put out a surfable wave with a 95 ft long pocket. No ballast, of course
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       01-17-2014, 8:56 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttime41 View Post
The real question here is can the Tige put out a surfable wave with a 95 ft long pocket. No ballast, of course

Only thing Ti-guh does well is be crappy.
Old    Tampa Wake (tampawake)      Join Date: Mar 2008       01-17-2014, 8:59 AM Reply   
Baltimore had the nation's highest rates of syphilis and gonorrhea: 99 cases of syphilis per 100,000 people, or 33 times the national average, and 991 cases of gonorrhea per 100,000 people, more than eight times the national rate. The city also had 898 cases of chlamydia per 100,000, more than four times the national rate.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       01-17-2014, 12:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tampawake View Post
Baltimore had the nation's highest rates of syphilis and gonorrhea: 99 cases of syphilis per 100,000 people, or 33 times the national average, and 991 cases of gonorrhea per 100,000 people, more than eight times the national rate. The city also had 898 cases of chlamydia per 100,000, more than four times the national rate.

You seem to know a lot about STD's...which is funny considering the abstinence I'm assuming you have had thrust upon you...
Old     (JetRangerThePoser)      Join Date: Aug 2013       01-17-2014, 1:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetRanger View Post
You seem to know a lot about STD's...which is funny considering the abstinence I'm assuming you have had thrust upon you...
lighten up, Francis.
Old    rzap (zap)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-18-2014, 6:04 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetRanger View Post
Malibu the first? If we want to get technical MC was first. You know who doesn't have a horse in the rave yet? Ti-guh!
If you want to get technical CATS was first
Old    Dave Diaz (wakebrdr94)      Join Date: Jul 2010       01-27-2014, 8:49 PM Reply   
Does anyone have experience with the cats system? I'm curious how it is to drive. Tracking fins do just that, helps the boat track straight when the riders are pulling on the back of the boat cutting out. With that's cats fun unwound think it would force the boat to one direction and you would have to counter steer. In the video as the boat was changing side to side, they were not tracking straight, the boat was still turning left and right depending on the list.


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Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       01-28-2014, 3:22 AM Reply   
Jet you forgot to post something in this thread.

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