Articles
   
       
       
Pics/Video
   
       
       
Shop
Search
 
 
 
 
 
Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
WAKE WORLD HOME
Email Password
Go Back   WakeWorld > Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles

Share 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       10-21-2013, 1:22 PM Reply   
anyone use a tsunami pump on their thru hull ballast compared to a jabso/johnson pump? one of the places i called to get a quote for said they use the tsunami because they are a faster pump. ive never heard of them being used for thru hull pumps. always heard of using a jabsco style pump.
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       10-21-2013, 1:25 PM Reply   
I use jabsco on my thru hull but I also have a few random bags we fill on the floor of the cockpit using the tsunami pump. It's funny you post this because I've always felt my tsunami pump fills faster than my expensive jabsco pumps. I have 3 pumps (1 for each rear locker and 1 for the nose). The rest I fill with the tsunami and 9 times out of 10, the bags I fill with the tsunami are full before the plummed bags from the Jabsco.
Old    Swatguy (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       10-21-2013, 1:29 PM Reply   
The tsunami 1200's are definitely faster but u need to be sure to use the optimal hose size otherwise it's a waste. The one downside to running the Tsunamis is the longer the hose run, the slower they become. I have a 650 lb integrated bow sac run off a Johnson. I have two 750's that I run off tsunami 1200's with 3/4 inch thru hulls, not optimal as an 1 1/4 thru hull for each would be ideal, but I had a factory ballast system originally and didn't want to re drill each 3/4 thru hull. The 750's fill about a 1 min faster than the 650 with the Johnson.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       10-21-2013, 1:30 PM Reply   
the tsunami is 1100 gph. the jabso is like 780gph so yes the tsunami is quite a bit faster. ive just never heard of them being used for a plumbed in system and was curious if it was common or not since ive never heard of it being done that way.
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       10-21-2013, 1:40 PM Reply   
The Tsunami's are either a 800 or a 1200 gph. They don't make a 1100.
http://www.wakemakers.com/wakeboard-ballast-pumps

Many of the stock systems utilize Tsunami or other similar "live well/ aerator" style pumps. My Tige had 4 seperate thru hulls and pumps for each zone of the ballast. Then 4 more for empty.

The advantage is the Tsunami pumps are way cheaper and they are faster. They can also run dry and it won't hurt them. The disadvantage is that they only run one direction and you need a seperate fill and drain pump. Personally I like the Tsunami style systems.
Old    Swatguy (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       10-21-2013, 2:30 PM Reply   
The tsunamis are offered as mentioned 1200 or 800. Rule I bieve is offered in an 1100.

There are still boats coming off the showroom floor in 2014 with Tsunami pumps as the choice. I am with RB. They are much simpler, less prone to problems, and much cheaper. The also draw way less current. Combo that with higher pump speeds and it's a solid choice.

Advantage of going reversible is it saves a bit on thru hulls and hose because u can use same line to and empty. So kinda up to you to decide which fits your needs better.

Last edited by xstarrider; 10-21-2013 at 2:34 PM.
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-21-2013, 2:43 PM Reply   
I do not know the actual at the pump zero head pressure, but I can say without a doubt, that the Tsunami T1200 1200 GPH pump is slower then the Johnson 1100 GPH pump when tested in real world ballast mock up. The Johnson also has a .75" inlet as compared to the Tsunami 46637 1" threaded inlet. Using .75" thru-hulls and ball-valves can be a cost advantage depending on the design and layout of the system.

There are clear pros and cons of both reversible impeller pumps and live-well style aerator pumps. In some cases, the boat will dictate which pump is going to the best, but also the design and goals of the system will play a factor.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       10-21-2013, 3:08 PM Reply   
I have a MB so there isnt a bunchbof room for thru hulls all over the boat so im thinking 3 Johnson or jabsco will be better thsn a bunch of tsunami since it would take double

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-21-2013, 3:29 PM Reply   
2012 B52 w/ 2 1100 Lb sacs fed with Jabsco Ballast puppies. Each sac has its own vent





2 aerator pumps would be snug but doable and 3 would be tight, even if 2 shared a thru-hull.
Old    Bryce (brycejb328)      Join Date: Aug 2009       10-21-2013, 3:45 PM Reply   
I think aerator pumps are fine for stock hard tank set ups.

For an add on soft bag system, there is no substitute to a reversible jump. The aerator pump will not suck the bag completely dry, the jabsco will vacuum the bag completely dry if the system is set up correctly.
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-21-2013, 3:54 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by brycejb328 View Post
I think aerator pumps are fine for stock hard tank set ups.

For an add on soft bag system, there is no substitute to a reversible jump. The aerator pump will not suck the bag completely dry, the jabsco will vacuum the bag completely dry if the system is set up correctly.
I'll prove that incorrect if I can find the pic. An aerator can "raisin" a soft ballast sac.
Old    Bryce (brycejb328)      Join Date: Aug 2009       10-21-2013, 4:11 PM Reply   
I believe it... I'd think it would really have to be the premo setup/pump orientation to achieve that result which I would think is a little more difficult, perhaps due to space?. I just liked my jabsco's as it would pull any air out of the bag as well. Ya sure it was maybe running "kinda dry" and only spitting water out.. but the impellers still looked perfect every year even with letting them run and vacuum out the bag
Old    Russ Constable (Midnightv10)      Join Date: Feb 2012       10-21-2013, 5:02 PM Reply   
@Bill - You might be able to find some info on the MB Forum on applications with the Tsunamis.

I remember a while back "The Squeaky Wheel" posted up his set-up..
he had custom 1700# sacks in each locker with 4 Tsunami's to each bag. (4 fills and 4 drains)
plus he had the X-link to transfer sides faster... seems like he was transferring 1700# in less than 5 minutes... pretty slick set-up
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       10-21-2013, 6:42 PM Reply   
Chpthril- are you using one pump for both bags? Or one pump for each?

Midnight- that seems kinda crazy to need that many ounos per bag. I have 5 bags(ill piggy back 2 per side) but that is still 6 tsunami. I don't know how you could fit that many thru hulls in an MB lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-21-2013, 6:49 PM Reply   
Each sac has its own pump and each pump has its own intake thru-hull. The other pump is mounted in the same spot on the port side stringer, just out of the pic.
Old    Ben R (brichter14)      Join Date: Jul 2010       10-21-2013, 6:59 PM Reply   
I just did a full automatic ballast install for my SAN. i chose aerator (tsunami) for the following reasons.

1. Speed ( i get 2200lbs filled in 5:30)
2. Cost
3. Less amp draw
4. Ability to run dry
5. I like seeing water exit the boat for drain.
6. One hole in the bottom of my boat.


I did tsunami 1200gph on my fills with 1" inside diameter hose and tsunami 800gph and 3/4" hose on drains. My three bags (2200 lbs) drain in 8:30. And no that is not "bone dry" but they are empty and easily moveable/removeable.


I made a manifold for my fill pumps and the drain pumps screw right into the flyhigh bags.







Many complain that aerator pumps have priming issues which is very true if the pumps are not below the source of water they are pumping. But with my system they are below the water line for the fill pumps and they are below the water in the bags for the drain.

Also siphoning issues are a thing of the past with check valves installed on the fill lines and vent lines of the bags.


Hope this helps.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       10-21-2013, 7:10 PM Reply   
Brichter. How empty do the bags get with that setup? Is the empty pump hooked up to the port on the bottom side? is your vent line the same line as your empty or a separate line?

I was going to mesage you but in on my phone lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
Old    Ben R (brichter14)      Join Date: Jul 2010       10-21-2013, 7:51 PM Reply   
They get to where there might be a centimeter or half inch of water in the bottom of embags. The drain line/pump is on the bottom of the bag. The vent and drain lines are connected through a "Y" fitting about two feet from the bag. The vent line is coming from the top of the bag and has a check valve on it to prevent water from returning to the bag while draining.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       10-21-2013, 8:21 PM Reply   
Can u fill while boat is moving?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
Old    Ben R (brichter14)      Join Date: Jul 2010       10-22-2013, 4:42 AM Reply   
Yes but not as efficiently
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       10-22-2013, 5:44 AM Reply   
Having done both I would never go back to aerators. You've got to have aerators set up perfectly to prevent passive filling and passive draining and then you still are unlikely to get the bag sucked flat.

The cost differential isn't as much as it initially seems either once you factor in the extra wire and fittings and hose and check valves and vacuum breaks for aerators (especially if you are comparing a simple drain and fill through the bottom impeller setup).

I was ALWAYS screwing around with the aerators, and the impeller pumps just work. I'll sacrifice a little theoretical fill speed for that reliability.
Old    Nikolas Dramountanis (Greeko)      Join Date: May 2013       10-22-2013, 8:35 AM Reply   
How about a hybrid setup. Use a reversible and an aerator together in parallel? Put the Reversible and aerators suction on the same fitting with a 'Y' so this way the line will have the suction pressure of the Reversible pump but the flow of both pumps (maybe only 3/4 capacity of each pump because you are sharing a 1" line). The Reversible would guarantee the aerator would prime, then the aerator would hum away....

What do you guys think?
Old    Spencer (spencerwm)      Join Date: Feb 2009       10-22-2013, 9:41 AM Reply   
I think you are over engineering it. What is the maximum time you are willing to wait for your ballast system to fill? You can get creative but mixing the reversible and aerator pumps is not the solution. If you go the aerator route the system will be fast and you can install it correctly. Unless you are using multiple fill pumps it will not be a ton faster than using a reversible pump.
Old    Ben R (brichter14)      Join Date: Jul 2010       10-22-2013, 10:03 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
Having done both I would never go back to aerators. You've got to have aerators set up perfectly to prevent passive filling and passive draining and then you still are unlikely to get the bag sucked flat.

The cost differential isn't as much as it initially seems either once you factor in the extra wire and fittings and hose and check valves and vacuum breaks for aerators (especially if you are comparing a simple drain and fill through the bottom impeller setup).

I was ALWAYS screwing around with the aerators, and the impeller pumps just work. I'll sacrifice a little theoretical fill speed for that reliability.
I think that a reversible system is a great system and is probably easier to maintain but for my application i found it beneficial for me to go with an aerator system for the reasons i stated above. I have not had any passive filling/draining since installing the check valves on both fill and drain lines.

With the brass mushroom fittings instead of the scupper style you dont have any force filling of the bags because there isnt enough pressure to route it through the manifold and up through the hose into the tops of the bags.

Although reversible is much simpler with one pump per bag, i just liked having one hole in the bottom of the boat and i also really like the visual aid of having it drain out the side.
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-22-2013, 10:06 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greeko View Post
How about a hybrid setup. Use a reversible and an aerator together in parallel? Put the Reversible and aerators suction on the same fitting with a 'Y' so this way the line will have the suction pressure of the Reversible pump but the flow of both pumps (maybe only 3/4 capacity of each pump because you are sharing a 1" line). The Reversible would guarantee the aerator would prime, then the aerator would hum away....

What do you guys think?
Without seeing a schematic, I cannot say how it will work and what challenges you encounter, but i am certain that the cost and complexity will outweigh the benefits. Aerators can be used trouble free, just not in every boat or with every design. MB's are deep, but not a lot of room between the fuel cell and v-drive. This is going to be a deciding factor with a 3 pump system.
Old    Nikolas Dramountanis (Greeko)      Join Date: May 2013       10-22-2013, 11:02 AM Reply   
This is what I was dreaming up. The pumps will not reach their full potential because they will be working off the same intake line..(ie slight fighting for flow) BUT the Jabsco/Johnson Reversible pump will maintain a prime MUCH MUCH better than Aerator pumps.

The Reversible Pump will maintain Prime for the starting of the Aerator pumps. You can wire all pumps to the same switch. The fill position will trigger the reversible in a single direction combined with the fill aerator. The empty position will trigger the reversible pump in the other direction with the empty aerator.

This method will utilize a single fitting for fill/drain rather than having to drill above the water line empty.

In other words. I am thinking about setting up each aerator pump as a "booster" pump to quicken the flow. I do not think that each aerator will hit 1200 but with the added help of constant prime and pressure from the reversible I think that the system will have the benefits of both systems..speed and reliability.

Please tell me if I am completely out to lunch. I was curious if anyone has attempted this.
Attached Images
 
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       10-22-2013, 11:02 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chpthril View Post
Without seeing a schematic, I cannot say how it will work and what challenges you encounter, but i am certain that the cost and complexity will outweigh the benefits. Aerators can be used trouble free, just not in every boat or with every design. MB's are deep, but not a lot of room between the fuel cell and v-drive. This is going to be a deciding factor with a 3 pump system.
There's actually room farther back along the sides of the tranny too. It's tight, but you can get a through hull in there. THere's also room behind the motor near the transom. Need to make sure you are OK on rudder clearance, but there's definitely room there too.

I'd guess you could get 6 through hulls in before you'd be totally out of room.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       10-22-2013, 11:07 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greeko View Post
Please tell me if I am completely out to lunch. I was curious if anyone has attempted this.
The aerator cannot drain through the bottom as in your pic. It must vent out the side.

Also your schematic still leaves open the possibility of passive filling on the fill side through the aerator too.

I think it's way complicated for not too much upside.
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-22-2013, 11:12 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
There's actually room farther back along the sides of the tranny too. It's tight, but you can get a through hull in there. THere's also room behind the motor near the transom. Need to make sure you are OK on rudder clearance, but there's definitely room there too.

I'd guess you could get 6 through hulls in before you'd be totally out of room.
Yes, but after talking with Mike @ MB, you cant just drill anywhere in the bilge. You would have to use an elbow and lay the pump on its side. The added hardware will likely narrow the price gap between impeller pump and aerator pumps. I know I could do it, but its going to be far tighter and tougher to do 3-4 aerators then impeller pumps. next time a have an MB, I may mock up an aerator setup and see how multiple pumps will fit.
Old    Nikolas Dramountanis (Greeko)      Join Date: May 2013       10-22-2013, 11:13 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
The aerator cannot drain through the bottom as in your pic. It must vent out the side.

Also your schematic still leaves open the possibility of passive filling on the fill side through the aerator too.

I think it's way complicated for not too much upside.
Ahhh, you're right. It would be a colossal system if you could combine them though!

I bought a pair of reversible's because it would be the simplest installation and most reliable..sadly I would like to make it faster..without adding another 250 in pump and fittings...
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-22-2013, 11:15 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greeko View Post
This is what I was dreaming up. The pumps will not reach their full potential because they will be working off the same intake line..(ie slight fighting for flow) BUT the Jabsco/Johnson Reversible pump will maintain a prime MUCH MUCH better than Aerator pumps.

The Reversible Pump will maintain Prime for the starting of the Aerator pumps. You can wire all pumps to the same switch. The fill position will trigger the reversible in a single direction combined with the fill aerator. The empty position will trigger the reversible pump in the other direction with the empty aerator.

This method will utilize a single fitting for fill/drain rather than having to drill above the water line empty.

In other words. I am thinking about setting up each aerator pump as a "booster" pump to quicken the flow. I do not think that each aerator will hit 1200 but with the added help of constant prime and pressure from the reversible I think that the system will have the benefits of both systems..speed and reliability.

Please tell me if I am completely out to lunch. I was curious if anyone has attempted this.
With the impeller pump in fill mode, I see it sucking the c/v's shut, rendering the aerators useless. In drain mode, I see it recirculating some drain flow.
Old    Nikolas Dramountanis (Greeko)      Join Date: May 2013       10-22-2013, 11:37 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chpthril View Post
With the impeller pump in fill mode, I see it sucking the c/v's shut, rendering the aerators useless. In drain mode, I see it recirculating some drain flow.
In fill mode with 2 separate lines going to the bag, you don't see that working ?
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-22-2013, 12:26 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greeko View Post
In fill mode with 2 separate lines going to the bag, you don't see that working ?
In the drawing above, I think the vacuum created by the impeller pump will close the check-valve thats on the inlet side of the aerator, closing off its water supply.
Old    Nikolas Dramountanis (Greeko)      Join Date: May 2013       10-22-2013, 12:56 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chpthril View Post
In the drawing above, I think the vacuum created by the impeller pump will close the check-valve thats on the inlet side of the aerator, closing off its water supply.
Maybe ill set up a test bench to see if this works...
Old    John Arnold (JohnAr)      Join Date: Jun 2010       10-22-2013, 4:52 PM Reply   
Having done both, I like my reversibles.

Cost diff was pretty minimal after I spreadsheet'ed everything out, and fill speed is very fast with 1" hose and no valve limitations. Like, 3x the speed of stock 3/4" aerator setup with sprinkler valves. Although theoretical fill times with aerators are slightly higher, practical measured fill times are so close it's not worth arguing about (1min diff for 1100lb bags, who cares?).

Also, I did x-link for switching surf sides, which has been a big help with no surfgate...
Old    Ben R (brichter14)      Join Date: Jul 2010       10-22-2013, 6:18 PM Reply   
I think whatever route you go, install it yourself and take pride in your own system. Because you did it on your own you will know the ins and outs of the system and be able to troubleshoot on the water if need be.
Old    Spencer (spencerwm)      Join Date: Feb 2009       10-22-2013, 10:45 PM Reply   
You will not see enough benefit to justify the time let alone cost of making this system work. If you have spacial issues use multiple reversible pumps. If you can use aerators then do it.
Old     (nitrousbird)      Join Date: Sep 2008       10-28-2013, 4:40 PM Reply   
Aerators on paper may be faster. In real world, where lift is actually factored in, I've found that reversible pumps are faster. No priming issues and the bags suck down dry. Two seasons now on the same impellers.

If you do the math and actually try to build a proper aerator setup, assuming you get a decent price on the reversible pumps, the setup can actually be cheaper than the aerator setup.
Old    Ben R (brichter14)      Join Date: Jul 2010       10-28-2013, 5:35 PM Reply   
I can believe that. My system which included bags was roughly 1100 bucks.
Old    rzap (zap)      Join Date: Jan 2009       10-28-2013, 5:40 PM Reply   
My boat fills with jabsco's and empties with aerators, I am throwing my aerators away and replacing with jabsco's as I am tired of them loosing their prime and not emptying the bags.
Old    Ben R (brichter14)      Join Date: Jul 2010       10-28-2013, 5:48 PM Reply   
If they are not below the water they are trying to pump they wont prime. If they arent being used to how they are made of course they wont work.
Old    Rob Andrus (robandrus)      Join Date: Feb 2002       11-18-2013, 8:35 AM Reply   
Check valves do slow your flow. After having both I love the aerator systems. If the impeller type had some sort of auto shut off I might consider them again, but if they get switched on you have to listen for them or they can burn up. Not to mention the draw on the batteries.

For my system I just use a Y on the full line above the bag and vent it out. Provides the venting and prevents siphoning. One pump in, one pump out. You can run it all day without killing your battery or your pumps. It's fast, cheap and reliable.

Reply
Share 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 6:57 AM.

Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
Wake World Home

 

© 2012 eWake, Inc.    
Advertise    |    Contact    |    Terms of Use    |    Privacy Policy    |    Report Abuse    |    Conduct    |    About Us