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Old    Cliff (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       10-15-2013, 6:11 PM Reply   
I'm sure there are many more of those types of cartoons for Obama
Old    Cliff (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       10-15-2013, 6:15 PM Reply   
like this one
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Old    Cliff (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       10-15-2013, 6:17 PM Reply   
this one?
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Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-16-2013, 9:32 AM Reply   
John, we the public are paying your $4500.

You obviously have been making way too much money for too long or maybe have never been poor. I am telling you that even the little bit of money that you guys say is not that much is a huge burden to those who could not afford anyway. You think the cost of liability insurance on cars is cheap but we have thousands in not hundreds of thousands of people who do not even have that level of coverage on their vehicles. What makes you think the same people can afford the little bit of money for healthcare.

I agree that you have to take other peoples money out of healthcare to make it cheaper. Your argument about taxes on healthcare are not correct. First is the crux of any argument. It is not the governments money to begin with. It is the peoples money and if business wants to invest in the the people who work for them then that is their right. It is an investment on whether they need a healthy stable workforce or can they get away from having people moving in and out of the labor force at their company. Do you really think that the people who did not have insurance are now really wanting to buy it? they always could have went out and bought a insurance policy that was as cheap as it is now. Money into healthcare is not going to cheapen it. That only works with widgets that get replaced with a new widget and the production is already built up for the old widget. Healthcare is the same and always will be.

For those who think Medicare is a good model and think it's free do not know a thing about where their paycheck goes too. You pay 4% for life no matter what your economic standing is for Medicare. You paid for it. Not only that, it has 25% of all people on it but has 50% of all medical costs. Then throw into the fact it is on the verge of going broke all the time and you pay the 4% for life but can only get on it at age 65 or so? You willing to take a 15% to 20% cut off your pay right now to go to a truly socialized system or who you prefer a company take that money out of their profits to pay for it?
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       10-16-2013, 10:28 AM Reply   
Delta, you are truly confused about taxes and the economy. Taxes are the govt's money whether you like it or not. No matter how you look at it a personal tax deduction not related to business costs is social engineering and govt revenue given to private sectors of the market. It is a known fact that the more money you put into a market sector the more it inflates. The fed works that way with interest. The housing market hyper inflated from govt directed money. And HC has done the same. I get it Delta... you don't want to lose your welfare. You just want anyone else to get some.

Do I think that people who can't get insurance now would like to have it? Yes, I think a lot do and the govt subsidy will help them get it.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       10-16-2013, 10:55 AM Reply   
The baby cartoon is hilarious (in a sad way) given the behavior of the house. Looks like the grownups in the senate got together and actually compromised and that things will reopen shortly. Cliff there was no plan put forth in the house. Boner tried twice and couldn't get the tea party freaks to vote for it so it went nowhere.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       10-16-2013, 11:16 AM Reply   
House Negotiation...

We want: Repeal/Defund the ACA.
We offer: Not destroying the US economy, credit, and world's faith in the dollar.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       10-16-2013, 11:16 AM Reply   
^what he said
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-16-2013, 7:04 PM Reply   
The ACA is just another way to “spread the wealth.” It sure would have been much simpler to require all of us to have health insurance—the same way automobile liability insurance was mandated--and quit there. However, even though some parts of the law are good, the insurance on the exchange is the same coverage that has been available to the public all along, but now there will be more committees, more commissioners, more politicians . . . to oversee the spending. And guess who will likely be appointed to those positions? Remember HMO’s? They were designed to curb health care costs too. Now where did that get us? And the deficit continues to multiply.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       10-17-2013, 8:05 AM Reply   
There is no question that the ACA is spreading the wealth. And there is no question that putting more money into HC is not going to contain costs. But until people are willing to make buying HI a decision left to the consumer with no coercion or "use it or lose it" govt welfare in the form of untaxed HI payments, the costs will not be contained. Do what I suggested... i.e. give the worker *all* the pay he's earned and then let him buy based on the market and everything will change on a dime. Add in regulation to prevent price gouging and you will have a balance of regulation and free market that will make HC more transparent and competitive.

Otherwise just count the days until HC breaks the back of the economy and then we'll probably end up with universal hc.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-17-2013, 10:23 AM Reply   
The ACA is designed to break the back of the economy and usher in Universal Healthcare. That is the whole point of it.

John, you again are miss informed. Your money is YOURS. The people came together to form a limited government recognizing the need for national defense and so on. The money you earn is not automatically the governments. When you say that, that means that your money is mine. If that is the case I will sit at home and do nothing and ask you work work harder on my behalf.

I agree that giving the worker the money may change the game but a business is trying to invest in a healthy long term workforce. It is not my welfare. You are just trying to maximize your profit on the tax payer dime just like everyone else. Less money you pay out the more money you make from your consulting. I get it, but don't act like it is something different. As far as my welfare, I am happy for it. I get benefits from a union plan (which Obama made a winner in his choice which part of the law to uphold and for who).

Here is the deal I moved 2500 miles to take a job that had benefits and chose not to chase more money for the sake of money. I made the hard choices and now the "public" who did not make the correct choices or sacrificed want to have it easy. Now those people are going to be screwed because they now have to pay and the middle class has to pay for no more of a plan that they would have had to begin with if they would have sacrificed in the first place. Now it is a mandate with a trillion dollar government budget that we can not afford.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       10-17-2013, 11:05 AM Reply   
Delta, whenever you begin a conversation with "the money I pay in taxes is mine, not the govt", it's difficult to have an intelligent discussion. First I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is and try to keep it. You will find out how quickly it's not yours. There is no question that the govt will take it's share and this isn't a conversation about how much that share should be.

You have to start with a basic premise that the govt is entitled to some amount, whatever that is. Then you have to recognize that whenever the govts takes part of "it's" money and uses it to pay for your HC, then somebody else has to make up the difference. That's half the equation. The other half is the inflation in HC that's a result of the govt giving money to the HI industry. You said you like your welfare. Well now you are paying for it.

The other effect of the ACA is to make sure as many people as possible have HC. Your decision to take the benefits is of no significance. I'm advocating that you get the taxed dollars from those benefits and then choose on your own to buy HI. And I laugh at your claim that companies are interested in their employee's health. The evidence is clearly the opposite. Benefits are for exactly what you demonstrated.... to attract and retain hard to replace employees. Nobody wants to give insurance to easily replaceable employees.

Just think... you won't have to make those "hard" choices in the future because with Universal HC HI won't be tied to your employer. You can go for the money and still get HC.
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-17-2013, 7:39 PM Reply   
Here's the irony. The gov. (the FDR administration) inadvertently caused health care to be tied to employers in the first place by capping the amount executives were paid. One way to recruit the best and brightest was to offer to pay for their health care. Unfortunately, John, if the US were to enact your proposal, then free market would take place.
Old    Eric (DenverRider)      Join Date: Feb 2013       10-18-2013, 7:28 AM Reply   
I love the way you people talk about the government wanting all of your money and taking your money or just wants more money. "It's the governments money". As if the government is this big fat rich guy with a mansion in Grand Cayman sitting in a fancy beach chair with servants getting him drinks and lobsters. I agree that there is a lot of government waste, but who do you think gets all of that money? Most of it goes right back into the pockets of the people who complain the most about paying taxes because those high income whiners are the ones with the inflated government contracts that cause the high taxes in the first place. Your heroes, the Koch brothers who can't stand paying their own taxes take billions of dollars in subsidies for the oil industry. Who do you think should pay for those subsidies? The guys receiving them? YOU? My guess is that like most of the whiners, you think the poor should pay for them with all the money that they don't have. After all, the poor are living high on the hog these days with their fancy phone and their fancy health insurance. With assets like that, they are sure to be able to pay for billions in oil subsidies and holy wars so that you can afford the G23 and the Koch brothers can afford to buy all of your congressman for another decade. If you truly want to cut gov spending and your not looking at the DOD waste then you don't really want to cut spending. You just want to get those evil poor people (the worst of you are after the brown people). I hate the poor too but I recognize that cutting them off just turns my nation into a 3rd world cesspool of crime, violence, and beggars everywhere. Your hate is blinding you to this.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       10-18-2013, 7:38 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laker1234 View Post
Unfortunately, John, if the US were to enact your proposal, then free market would take place.
Well that is the point. To give the free market a try and see if it works. IMO... What is unfortunate is that if we turned on the "free market" right now chaos would ensue. The HC infrastructure is built around highly inflated costs that the free market won't bear.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       10-18-2013, 7:39 AM Reply   
Hmm. What if I do not get any subsidies, but still don't like paying almost half my income to the government, and think the government should do less with less? I don't hate poor people and try and help as much as I can, but do not like being forced to help the element within that group that refuses to help themselves.
Old    Cliff (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       10-18-2013, 8:15 AM Reply   
Dave
Wakeworld needs a like and dont like option on each comment.....
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-18-2013, 9:27 PM Reply   
Eric, the only tax breaks and subsidies I know of are for companies that produce oil in the US. Without those tax breaks and subsidies, many local producers would shut down and more people will be without jobs. Some of those workers are brown.

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