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Old     (kx250frider617)      Join Date: Aug 2013       10-02-2013, 11:18 AM Reply   
We've been looking to upgrade to a newer boat for sometime now, just doing all the research I can. Anyway, I run in salt water 90% of the time so either boat will need to be upgraded to handle it.

I found a 2005 Xstar for $45k but would need to sell/ trade in the trailer for a galvanized then, install closed cooling. The boat has less than 200 hours and has been stored indoors.

Or, I can find/ order a salt series A22 and have a brand new boat for a little bit more money.

What would be the most economical option? Im a little weary on dropping a bunch of money in an, already 9 year old, boat. But I do know its better quality. Also, functionality is way important than bling to us. I like the simplicity of the axis but there are also some things I don't care for. The star is one of the best wake boats ever made, but it is getting older. What are your opinions?

I also prefer an all-gel coat interior with snap-out carpet. So that limits my options somewhat. I am also open to other boats.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       10-02-2013, 11:33 AM Reply   
I love the A22. I owned 2 and had no material issues with them. If you can find an A22 with surfgate, it will hold its value very well, and will be a good feature to have for those days when you have people out who want to surf.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       10-02-2013, 11:34 AM Reply   
Also, for a salt environment, even if something messes up on the A22, it's not like you're going to lose a screen or anything terribly complicated. It's pretty much all analog gauges and rocker switches.
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       10-02-2013, 12:17 PM Reply   
Go with the A22 and warranty, or look for a nicely used coastal edition Nautique. You can add closed cooling to any engine but it's still not a complete closed loop system. You will still have to replace manifolds and risers every few years so with that in mind I would either get the A22 and some warranty to back me, or find a nicely used coastal edition with the completely closed cooled crusader engine.

Last edited by wakedaveup; 10-02-2013 at 12:17 PM. Reason: wrote the wrong word
Old    Doug (morrisdl)      Join Date: Apr 2004       10-02-2013, 2:24 PM Reply   
I had the same contemplation almost 3 years ago but it was a 2010 a22 and a 2007 xstar. I picked the a22 and have never regretted it for a second. You should really demo both it possible.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-02-2013, 3:01 PM Reply   
Just wondering: let's just say both boat worked the same. So the topics is more about New Vs used. The new A22 and the X star. Ones new and ones a 09. I'm guessing the 09 XStar has reached most of its depreciation. So what your paying for it it would still be somewhat worth in a year or 2. You buy a new A22 you loose thousands the min you drive off the lot ( same go's for any new boat). I'm not saying go one way or the other it was just somthing to think about
Old     (kx250frider617)      Join Date: Aug 2013       10-02-2013, 3:12 PM Reply   
Would you guys see the 2gen Xstar holding value like the original SAN 210's. Im finding 2003 210's still selling for $30k+
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-02-2013, 3:36 PM Reply   
Wake wise, they are very very close in characteristics. That era Xstar was my favorite wake ever until I got my A22 (still havent ridden the G yet ), now it is my second favorite. Both wakes are sad without any weight, and with stock ballast, they both are kinda sad, but as you reach that 3K lbs area, the wake starts getting really good. From there, as you add weight, the wake just gets better, it seems with every 100 lbs it is noticeable. Both hulls love weight, as much as the engine/prop combo can get up, the hulls will take it. So you can't go wrong in the wake department.

The xstar, as previously mentioned, has taken its depreciation hit, and I think you will have no problem selling it in a few years for what you bought it for... not sure you will get your money back for all your closed cooling system, but you may with the way new boat pricing goes up so much each year. Mastercrafts towers and swivel racks are excellent, imo the best ever. Axis swivel racks are decent, but still use bungees, I hate bungees.

The Axis will have a full warranty and you will get to be the first owner, choose the colors, and have the saltwater series installed at the factory and covered under warranty as well. In addition, it has a lot more room in the cabin than the Xstar, with the xstar having a little more bow space.

I would go test drive both if you can. The Axis should be easy to test drive, but the xstar may prove more difficult to set up, maybe look in the "find a third/be a third" thread here on ww.

BTW, I was in the similar situation when I bought new in 2011... I looked at used xstars, used VLXs, new Vride21 and a new A22. Basically got my A22 for a couple thousand more than I would of paid for an 06 xstar or 06 VLX, it was a no brainer for me and my wife. Good luck, and i don't think you could go wrong with either boat.
Old    Bruizza (bruizza)      Join Date: May 2009       10-02-2013, 3:49 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by grant_west View Post
Just wondering: let's just say both boat worked the same. So the topics is more about New Vs used. The new A22 and the X star. Ones new and ones a 09. I'm guessing the 09 XStar has reached most of its depreciation. So what your paying for it it would still be somewhat worth in a year or 2. You buy a new A22 you loose thousands the min you drive off the lot ( same go's for any new boat). I'm not saying go one way or the other it was just somthing to think about
It is an 05 not an 09 according to the OP. So 9 year old boat vs new boat.

I would go with the Axis and a warranty.
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       10-02-2013, 6:25 PM Reply   
I agree with Bruizza, I think it comes down to the fact that he would be using it in salt so why not go with the new boat, salt water series, and warranty. The 05 would need to be retrofitted with a closed cooling system that still wouldn't protect the manifolds, only the block. I think the Xstar is the better wake to be honest although that's irrelevant becuase everybody's wake preference is different. If quality is his main concern then find a coastal nautique with low hours although that may be tough in the 45k range.
Old    Mase (superair502)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-02-2013, 10:01 PM Reply   
Axis all day the interior on those old xstars were so crammed. The wakes are pretty similar but I don't know if I could own a last gen xstar due to how cramped the interior is. The axis is roomy even with 8 or 10 ppl out and I have had zero problems out of mine. That old xstar did throw a great wake tho
Old    Parker Frost (waketowake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-03-2013, 7:22 AM Reply   
Don't get the after market closed cooling install, my friends had one on their x 14 and had nothing but problems, even though they flushed it out every time. I have an 07 x star thats a SS and love the wake and everything about it, but if i was in your position in would go with the axis for sure.

Good luck doode!
Old    John (stoked_32)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-04-2013, 1:24 PM Reply   
Anyone else got any input on which wake is bigger?
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-05-2013, 5:15 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoked_32 View Post
Anyone else got any input on which wake is bigger?
Answer: Whichever boat has more ballast in it.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       10-05-2013, 5:40 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_defacto View Post
answer: Whichever boat has more ballast in it.
bringo!
Old    Mase (superair502)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-06-2013, 1:36 AM Reply   
They are going to be really similar in size with the same amount of weight. Star may be a little and I mean very very little bit bigger with same amount of weight but I am talking like so slight most people wouldn't notice. The star will be a hair narrower and have a really long ramp with a crisp lip. The a22 will have a long ramp as well with a perfect lip with the wedge and more mellow without. It's cool tho because u have 2 diff wakes. The a22 is pretty wide though. They are actually really similar wakes. The selling point for me would be interior which is way larger in the axis. Btw my 2012 a22 is for set loaded with tricked trailer and wet sounds in classifieds for 50,5k!
Old    Mase (superair502)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-06-2013, 1:37 AM Reply   
Sell
Old    J.B. O'Neill (gnarslayer)      Join Date: Sep 2008       10-06-2013, 2:34 AM Reply   
whichever boat has the biggest motor is what you should choose... i dont recommend either boat if the motor is less than 400 hp.... a prop can only get you so far.... the axis and xstar both require a ton of weight so the more hp the better!

smaller boats like an old hull 210 are alot better with the small motors in my opinion

2005 xstar wake


2005 xstar surf wave


those photos are with the 8.1l engine btw

i have ridden axis with every sized engine and an x star with every sized engine and i promise a propped 330 or 350 motor isnt even going to compare to the pics above or a larger propped engine.

bigger is better no doubt
Old    Mase (superair502)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-06-2013, 7:44 AM Reply   
While I agree with jb on the xstar needing a bigger motor the a22 with the 335 is all you will ever need with the 15x12 prop this is the a22 with the standard motor in this picture.
Attached Images
 
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       10-06-2013, 8:42 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by superair502 View Post
While I agree with jb on the xstar needing a bigger motor the a22 with the 335 is all you will ever need with the 15x12 prop this is the a22 with the standard motor in this picture.
Another factor the OP might not be considering is that according to reports here, wake for wake, the Axis burns less fuel, yes? If it were me I'd have a few more pros stacked in the Axis corner than the Xstar.
Old    Mase (superair502)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-06-2013, 8:53 AM Reply   
Yea it isn't even close the a22 is way more efficient. Those old xstars had amazing wakes but were pigs on gas consumption. Some if that may be due to most axis owners having the 335 and that may not be a direct comparison but even the old star with the mcx 350 would straight drink some fuel like none other
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       10-06-2013, 9:13 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by superair502 View Post
Yea it isn't even close the a22 is way more efficient. Those old xstars had amazing wakes but were pigs on gas consumption. Some if that may be due to most axis owners having the 335 and that may not be a direct comparison but even the old star with the mcx 350 would straight drink some fuel like none other
I think engines and fuel management are more efficient these days. My family's tige with a 315 seems to burn more fuel than your Axis... and my wake is 1/3 the size with the same amount of ballast
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-06-2013, 10:44 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakebordr11 View Post
Another factor the OP might not be considering is that according to reports here, wake for wake, the Axis burns less fuel, yes? If it were me I'd have a few more pros stacked in the Axis corner than the Xstar.
Yes, I have the 335 CAT motor with the 2315. I can run 5000 lbs, full fuel, rider and 2 in the boat and plane no problem at 1800' elevation. That is with no wedge and a rider who does not pull too hard when getting up on plane. Although I wont be able to put as much weight in it as JB can in his 8.1 xstar, my wake is still mackin and I bet my fuel consumption is less than half.

I get from 3.25 to 3.9 gph, depending on what ballast set up I run... but I never have less than 1000 plus people in it, and never more than 5000 plus 3 people.

that said, if you can find a saltwater series xstar with the 8.1, you will sink the boat before you will have trouble planing, and your wake will be a beast.
Old    Mase (superair502)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-06-2013, 11:24 AM Reply   
And to comment on top of what Johnny said I can run like 4k and wedge or no wedge and more. I still prefer with wedge tho due to the lip getting bigger
Old     (kx250frider617)      Join Date: Aug 2013       10-06-2013, 1:23 PM Reply   
We are going to look at the xstar and see if we can get a killer deal. If not, the axis is the best boat for us. I am at sea level so the base engine will work for us in either boat. Even though everyone says the axis interior is plain, I feel I salt conditions, it's the easiest to maintain. From those who just bought an axis, what would the price be for a basic boat: no stereo, solid color, pnp ballast, wedge, and Salt series. Also, what is the option price for a white tower? We have used a normal cooled engine in salt for over 5 years and have had no problems. We are pretty meticulous when it comes to cleaning and up-keep. The trailer is what takes the hit though. Would it be cheaper to get a basic boat with a galvanized trailer? And just keep the same post-clean up that we've always done?

When we go into the ocean, we are in the water for the day. Constantly running the boat. After, we head straight home to flush out the engine. The boat never sits for a long period of time.
Old    Clark Dudley (indemand12)      Join Date: Mar 2003       10-23-2013, 5:01 AM Reply   
I recently have ridden both of these boats and just strictly comparing the wakes a properly weighted xstar wins. Picture on the left is an 05 xstar with the mcx 350 hp motor, acme 15x12 prop 3400 lbs of ballast and two adults. Boat on the right is a 2012 A-22 with the LS3 450 hp motor, 4700 actual lbs of ballast, the wedge and 2 adults. As you can see the wakes are very similar but in real life the xstar is probably 3-5 inches taller and has a better lip/ more pop. I am about as unbiased as you can get because I currently own both of these boats.
Attached Images
 
Old    Clark Dudley (indemand12)      Join Date: Mar 2003       10-23-2013, 5:07 AM Reply   
Sorry I am 6'3" riding about 75 feet 23.2 mph
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       10-23-2013, 5:29 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by indemand12 View Post
I recently have ridden both of these boats and just strictly comparing the wakes a properly weighted xstar wins. Picture on the left is an 05 xstar with the mcx 350 hp motor, acme 15x12 prop 3400 lbs of ballast and two adults. Boat on the right is a 2012 A-22 with the LS3 450 hp motor, 4700 actual lbs of ballast, the wedge and 2 adults. As you can see the wakes are very similar but in real life the xstar is probably 3-5 inches taller and has a better lip/ more pop. I am about as unbiased as you can get because I currently own both of these boats.
Great pictures but I really don't see the difference. The Axis pic you are closer to the peak - potentially riding further UP the wake making it look smaller.

If you had shown me both photos side by side and asked me if I thought it was a different boat, I'd probably say no... Different water conditions too and lighting throw perspective off.

That said, pound for pound of ballast, looks like the star makes a better wake...
Old    Clark Dudley (indemand12)      Join Date: Mar 2003       10-23-2013, 5:56 AM Reply   
Delta force, great points, tried to get in the same spot but proved to be difficult, I tried to get at what felt like the bottom of the wakes for the picture, but even if they where exactly the same which they where not the xstar had over 1000 pounds less ballast and now wedge, of course the xstar does weigh about 600lbs more dry weight. But if you count the wedge like a thousand extra pounds as malibu axis suggest that is still 1700 lbs more weight to get close to the xstar. I believe until the 15x12 prop came out you could not pull enough weight in the xstar to get it good with the small motor.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       10-23-2013, 6:07 AM Reply   
There's no doubt that the A22 handles and drives much better than a loaded star. That's also important to consider. Those loaded stars were like driving a barge.
Old    Clark Dudley (indemand12)      Join Date: Mar 2003       10-23-2013, 6:46 AM Reply   
Chat may have to disagree with ya there, xstars got a bad wrap due to really needing more power, I have had the 8.1 450hp and the mcx 350 both drive and handle great especially when weighted and proped properly. Also not trying to knock the axis especially since it is my most renascent purchase.
Old    Steve Amestoy (stevev210)      Join Date: Feb 2005       10-23-2013, 6:19 PM Reply   
Clark, how do you have the 3400lbs configured in the star? Also is the 15x12 prop a better hole shot than the OJ 14.25x14.5? I have an 06 Star with the MCX with that OJ prob but only run around 2k of ballast but wouldn't mind running more.
Old    Mase (superair502)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-23-2013, 6:44 PM Reply   
15x12 is the lowest most bad ass stump pulling prop on the market. I have one on my A22 and my friend has one on his 2009 mcx star I rode with him last week and we yanked 4300 out if the hole like it was nothing. I can run pretty much whatever I want in my a22 unless I run wedge with that prop and with wedge I'm running that plus like 4500 before she struggles
Old    Mase (superair502)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-23-2013, 6:50 PM Reply   
So yea it would crap all over that oj prop when It come to hole shot. My rpms actually only went up 50-75 rpm as well and gas consumption is marginally better than the 1235 I had prior.
Old    Clark Dudley (indemand12)      Join Date: Mar 2003       10-23-2013, 7:11 PM Reply   
Steve, I have the factory ballast which 900 or 1000 depending on who you are arguing with, piggy backed on the factory I have 750's in the rear and 350's under front seats ( they don't fill all the way I estimate 400-450) then I manually fill a 750 on the floor in the bow ( it probably gets 600lbs) total 3400-3600. It will plane off with 4 average size adults and you will run 3900 rpm at about 23-23.5 mph. If only two adults are in the boat I will fill another sack on the floor to keep the wake good and that is probably 400lbs for a grand total of approx 4000 lbs ballast and two adults. Any more than that boat really struggles to get on plane, but that motor has 920 hours so if yours has less may pull a little more weight.
Old    Clark Dudley (indemand12)      Join Date: Mar 2003       10-23-2013, 7:29 PM Reply   
And just to up date here are 2 blurry shots of the A22 one on the right is with 4700lbs with and the one on the right is 5300lbs. Also talked to the guys at Wakemakers and was told 750's in the back are only getting 600-650 each due to being pinched toward the front of the bag mushroom is closer to 800 due to height of compartment. The one on the left my buddy had the camera lower than the first so it looks considerably bigger.
Attached Images
 
Old    Clark Dudley (indemand12)      Join Date: Mar 2003       10-23-2013, 7:31 PM Reply   
Oops left is 4700
Old    Steve Amestoy (stevev210)      Join Date: Feb 2005       10-23-2013, 7:50 PM Reply   
Is the acme 1285 prop better than the oj 14.25x14.5 for hole shot?
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-23-2013, 8:17 PM Reply   
Clark, you are correct about the 750's in the rear (better yet, wakemakers is correct). I have the 750's and did a side by side comparison with the sumo 600's. I put one on each side. The 750 filled about 30 seconds earlier than the sumo 600. The boat appeared to be evenly weighted when I was riding, didn't have to make any side to side adjustment. The 600 is shorter and does not get smashed in the front like the 750, is able to fill fully and expand without putting pressure anywhere.. I am guessing the sumo holds about 650 (same as the 750's probably do) when completely full based off how full the 750 gets and seems to be equal water.

And the front mushroom sac under the seats has been guestimated at 600-700, depending on whom you talk to... no actual capacity test has been done to my knowledge. I have the Sumo mushroom sac and it is a bit bigger, longer stem, and better shape and probably holds another 50-100 lbs than my fly high sac did.

That xstar and A22 side by side comparison is great. I always knew they were very close in shape and size from my experience, but it is nice to have photo confirmation.
Old    Clark Dudley (indemand12)      Join Date: Mar 2003       10-24-2013, 5:15 AM Reply   
Steve, at only .25 difference in pitch I doubt you would see much difference. With the mcx 350 you really need to go to the 15x12 to pull that little but of more weight need to shape up the gen. 2 xstar wake, in my opinion. When I purchase that prop I called acme and they told me that was the newest/ best prop for pulling heavy weight. And I have been extremely happy with it.
Old    Willy T (willyt)      Join Date: May 2010       10-24-2013, 5:40 AM Reply   
any concerns that the 15 incher is too close to the hull on the 03-11 star? i'm considering buying that prop this winter but hesitated because i wasn't sure of the hull clearance.
Old    Danny D (axxxiswake)      Join Date: Jun 2013       10-24-2013, 5:49 AM Reply   
5300 LBS?! Man, I'm worried about taking water over the bow with standard P-n-p and a couple of girls in the bow.
Old    Clark Dudley (indemand12)      Join Date: Mar 2003       10-24-2013, 5:54 AM Reply   
Willy I will check when I be home but I believe it clears with at least an inch to spare, and Danny it didn't seem that bad to me as far as taking in water just can't chop the throttle all the way immediately, and if you do the girls where probably hot anyway
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-24-2013, 2:54 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by willyt View Post
any concerns that the 15 incher is too close to the hull on the 03-11 star? i'm considering buying that prop this winter but hesitated because i wasn't sure of the hull clearance.
If it is too close, look at the ACME 2079 instead. Same pitch, same cup, just 14.5" diameter to help with clearance. Not sure how it performs compared to the 2315, but it should be really close, and anything really close to the 2315 is a win for sure.
Old    Clark Dudley (indemand12)      Join Date: Mar 2003       10-24-2013, 3:06 PM Reply   
Willy for the mastercraft splined shaft it is a 2305 15x12 and it has 7/8 clearance between hull and prop at the closest point. Also plenty of clearance from factory trailer .
Old    Mase (superair502)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-25-2013, 6:34 PM Reply   
The axis will burn considerably less gas than the star also with or without edge for whatever reason, just something to consider
Old    Dave W (njskier)      Join Date: Jul 2005       01-19-2014, 5:50 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by willyt View Post
any concerns that the 15 incher is too close to the hull on the 03-11 star? i'm considering buying that prop this winter but hesitated because i wasn't sure of the hull clearance.
Willyt, I'd be curious to see how you like the 15X12 if you end up buying one. As you know I have basically the same X-star as you.

-Jerseydave
Old     (kx250frider617)      Join Date: Aug 2013       07-24-2014, 12:50 PM Reply   
I totally forgot about this thread, but here's an update

I ended up getting the 12' axis a22 brostock boat. It was fully loaded and came with the ls3 and salt water series. I'm so glad I went with the axis vs the xstar I was looking at. There really is no comparison between the small engines and the biggest ones. Our boat plans with 4000lbs of ballast like it's nothing. Axis really hooked up this boat though. It's a 12' that came with 1" ballast hoses and pumps, it also has all stainless steel thru hulls. It also came with two sets of swivel board racks. I believe the only option we don't have is the z5.

I'm still super pumped on how things ended up. We also got a warranty since we are the first owners. So stoked.
Old    Ben R (brichter14)      Join Date: Jul 2010       07-24-2014, 5:39 PM Reply   
Pics or we dont believe u
Old     (kx250frider617)      Join Date: Aug 2013       07-24-2014, 6:55 PM Reply   
Here it is!

Old    Tim (dezul)      Join Date: Jul 2012       07-24-2014, 6:57 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by brichter14 View Post
Pics or we dont believe u
I know him on the Axis forum....but I agree. Pics or it didn't happen.
Old     (kx250frider617)      Join Date: Aug 2013       07-24-2014, 7:14 PM Reply   


Old     (kx250frider617)      Join Date: Aug 2013       07-24-2014, 7:36 PM Reply   
Upgrades from stock, that I know of:
Corvette ls3
Salt series w/ painted galvanized trailer, 18" low pros
4 swivel board racks
Ptm mirror
1-1/8 pnp hoses: 600s rear. 950 bow
1235 prop
Under water/ docking lights
Etc

After seeing a regular axis, I saw that our boat came with stainless steel thru hulls, sunbrella Bimini and bow cover, and lime green bow accent and swim step.
The coolest thing is the wrap, it was done when the boat was brand new, so the gel coat is brand new underneath. In planning on running the wrap until it gets thrashed.
Old    Jimmy S (JamesHawk101)      Join Date: Sep 2012       07-24-2014, 7:43 PM Reply   
That is a rare boat I would keep the wrap on it as long as you can.
Old    Tim (dezul)      Join Date: Jul 2012       07-24-2014, 8:00 PM Reply   
Can I get a pull with 5k+ lbs in it?
Old    Chase Griggers (Griggs24)      Join Date: Oct 2013       07-24-2014, 8:26 PM Reply   
I like the double board racks. Bet those come in handy! Great looking ride.

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