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Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-13-2013, 9:49 PM Reply   
After seeing Nick's creation and all of the variations at MalibuCrew I thought I would join the club. Since my 07 did not come with the extra surf tabs, I purchased some Lenco 15060-001 (the HD ones), some 1/2" polycarbonate, hinges (ended up using 12 ga trim tabs), a switch, and a bunch of SS bolts and screws.

The tabs are 12.5", taper to 11.5" and are 22" long. They are laminated 1" thick and weigh about 10 lbs each. Since I have the old style swim deck, I designed the retract position to be right at the deck versus going under it. It extends to 112* measuring from the stern (22* longitudinal). It almost took a lot longer to fiddle with setting the position than to actually install it. For now the tabs are manual. When I figure out how to build a logic controller I will make it automatic.








Laminating and then run through the router to round the edges. I added some color to the glue, but the pressure was a bit too much in a few spots. If I get real keen after I know this works, I will add a matching wrap or gel-coat it.




Mounting the trim tabs.






Installed.







Hopefully I can test it out this weekend.

Last edited by Iceberg; 09-13-2013 at 9:53 PM.
Old    Joe Sellhausen (joesell)      Join Date: Apr 2001       09-13-2013, 11:20 PM Reply   
That looks great!

I really hope to have time to do mine over the winter. I wanted to try it all summer but I never could get to it. Now that you guys are working out the bugs, I won't have any excuses.

I can't wait to hear about the results.
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-14-2013, 4:24 PM Reply   
Frank, here's my 2.0 version just in time - finally got my trapez shaped Lexan back yesterday - the picture shows the difference between the two. The new tabs have a base of 28", at the transom the height is 11.5" and the other end is 8" (the first set was 22"x9") and they fold again under the platform. This time I also included the pics to show the mounting points of the hinges (just realized forgot the height from the bottom of the transom )

Anyway - was a lot easier for me - I just drilled thru the existing holes of the current setup to match the mounting holes - that was pretty quick. The material is the same as before 0.5" general purpose Makrolon (same as lexan), color tinted 7130. At the mounting points I have a 2nd plate of Makrolon which increases the thickness there to 1". I didn't use a router (sorry - I'm lazy) - I just sanded the edges with a belt and a hand sander down.

Just got done an hour ago and tried to get back on the lake to try it out but weather didn't cooperate so I just dropped it in and put it onto the lift (but we do need rain so badly - I'm not complaining - but see the other thread with your rudder repair - had to add to that one too).

But I did check quickly how the tabs now work - the additional height does make a difference but I haven't put any weight in - so I'll follow up tomorrow with results - hope we can compare a bit.
Attached Images
         
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-14-2013, 5:47 PM Reply   
I really wanted to get out for a surf session, but the weather was rather unsettled today. I did however get it out for a shake-down cruise to see how the gates work. One thing that surprised me was the interference to the Perfect Pass speed control when activating the tabs. The GPS speed would register near zero - 4 mph with the switch pushed and of course, the power would come on making the boat go way too fast. At 16 mph the water-fall effect was quite visible! So for the testing I used manual speed control. I need to get this aspect sorted out! Love my PP!

As advertised, you can switch sides in about 5 seconds and same for wakeboard set-up. We had whitecaps for most of the testing (except for the video) so speed control wasn't the greatest; blame me. The wave was surfable with 500 lbs in the front and nothing in the rear tanks. It might not have been good enough to go wireless, but for learning skim tricks on the line it was very mellow, including the port side. The next test had me load it full in the rear (3000 lbs) and 500 in the front. The wave on both sides was very good. The right side remains very good, but the left side is longer and less steep than with a listed boat. There is a little wash on the wave, probably due to the stowed tab. If you notice on the video, you will see on a starboard to port wave change, just before the tabs get to the full in and out positions, there is a very sweet wave on the port side. It is quite possible that a slight deflection or straight back on the surf side tab may be the money for adjusting the trim!

How does the boat drive? Well, there is way less steer required when compared to a listed start with the tab out right from the start (remember my PP speed problem). In fact, it has no bad manners with the tab out at low speed turning either direction. Just this and having the boat pretty much level is well worth the price of my install. You can still move a passenger or 2 to the surf side and it will help clean up the wave.


Last edited by Iceberg; 09-14-2013 at 5:52 PM.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-14-2013, 6:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
I didn't use a router (sorry - I'm lazy) - I just sanded the edges with a belt and a hand sander down.
I forgot to add, the polycarbonate was easy to cut at 1/2" on the table saw without too much melt and grab on the blade. At one inch the smooth part of the blade caused a bit of binding. I used my router in the table. It worked quite well, except a bunch of the plastic cuttings were sucked into my expensive router and at one point it must have got into the electrical contacts of the dynamo. I now have a few plastic balls rattling around inside the router housing that I will have to get out before I use it again. So, if you plan on using a router, ensure your router is on top of the work, not under it! Maybe it would have been OK in the table if I would have used the vacuum to clear out most of the cuttings.
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-14-2013, 7:03 PM Reply   
Just watched video - yep very nice sweet spot just before going all the way out. Mine take a lot longer to switch side-to-side because they're more tugged in - I have to move extend them first - otherwise it takes too long. I will be out tomorrow for more testing and taking videos - we are finally getting some rain so I'm not complaining

BTW - it's the pilots voice announcing the setup
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-15-2013, 8:02 PM Reply   
It was 37*F last night. It was cool today, by US standards (60*F), but the wind cooperated and made for a pretty good test day on both sides. Unfortunately no pictures due to only one adult in the boat and one in the water. As it turns out, the tabs at full extension were the money on both sides. Before I went out I rerouted the electrical wires under the dash and the PP worked perfect for about 1.5 hrs and then every once in a while it would act up on tab deployment. I still need to figure out how to get rid of the electrical interference. I ran a second separate power feed from the battery and will give that a try in the upcoming week. Temp is going down to 34* tonight.

The pocket of the waves are definitely longer and fully surfable. The waves are fully surfable from 50% to 100% (4000 lbs) ballast with short slow boards at 11.5 mph. With the Inland Surfer you had to use a lot of brake to avoid passing the boat. The faces are not as tall as a listed boat, but they give a lot of area to play with. If you go to the top, it's not like coming off a cliff on the way down. Now, if I could only throw some tricks...

I did a couple of wakeboard runs and the tabs have no affect on the wake.

For those with an Epic, this works quite well. One day Nick and I will have to get together to compare results since his tabs are longer but narrower.
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-16-2013, 9:30 PM Reply   
ok - update after watching videos from yesterday - sorry - will post them later - slow internet connection ...

Lengthening the tab did what it was supposed to do - the wake gets longer but with less push - not enough to be able to do much - you can surf and just hang around but that's about it. Now somewhat linking to the other thread about 'how to weigh the boat for surfing' I have to say the following: You need weight - lots of it. My tabs are now too long with stock ballast - last week I had an awesome session/wake with a few more people in the boat and with the tab version 1.0 (only 22" long). Making them longer is not going to pay off for an Epic - making them taller will. So my next attempt is to shorten the tab to either 26 or even 24 - I doubt that they need to be longer than that. Height does make a difference - I can't go as high as Frank does due to my setup (the hooks for the tie down are differently positiioned) - so that's as high as I can go.

With the additional 500 lbs on the left (plus 1500 on each side and about 500 in front) I'm getting a pretty good wake. Throwing dogs and more people in - then I'll probably have the winner for the left side - the right was already a winner with version 1.0.

So for those going for it - height matters more than length - if you make it too long you get a long surf wake but not enough push w/o increasing weight (and you'll need a lot). Stock ballast is my preference as I can fill it in 45 seconds - but as this might not be enough I'm following midnight's lead and will drill a few more holes over winter - what the heck - having a ready to go additional 500lbs on each side isn't too bad - the lockers are big enough anyway.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       09-16-2013, 9:49 PM Reply   
I have to say that the wave in that video looks pretty awful. I'm sure you can surf it, but it looks like a big sloppy mess of froth. Ending up with a wave like that is exactly why I'm reluctant to start drilling holes in the transom to make my own gate.

I admire your ingenuity and that's a very clean looking gate. The results just don't look like they justify the effort.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-17-2013, 7:46 AM Reply   
Quote:
I have to say that the wave in that video looks pretty awful. I'm sure you can surf it, but it looks like a big sloppy mess of froth. Ending up with a wave like that is exactly why I'm reluctant to start drilling holes in the transom to make my own gate.
It is called a test run for a reason. Drilling holes in fiberglass, nor filling them in is nothing special nor requires any great skill to do; however, it may require a premium if a shop does the work. So, I can go back to stock without much effort if I want to. Based on round 2 of testing on Sunday, I doubt that will happen. As with comments on the Malibu SG and Nautique's NS systems, the comments are all over the map; some like some while others like it sunk in the corner. One thing that everyone who has experienced it seems to agree on is the non-listed boat, in and of itself, was definitely worth the effort.

As far as the sloppy froth, yes there was some on day one but we saw very little on day 2 with the same set-up. I don't know why, but I speculate that it was probably due to the wind and water conditions. However, if you have ever looked at the G23 NSS advertising photos, you can see a similar result on its wave as well. Maybe that will be part of the trade off for the benefit of not having to list the boat. In any case, I didn't take any hero shots of the wave from the deck nor from a chase boat. Even with some froth, those pics would have looked very good. The money still remains in the ride, and that is good. I still have to play with the weighting and gate position to fine tune the wave for various styles, but I can still list the boat if I need to.

We are going out today to play and test again, but the wind may impede our progress. Hopefully I can get some good photos today.
Old    Russ Constable (Midnightv10)      Join Date: Feb 2012       09-17-2013, 11:01 AM Reply   
Hey Frank,

If you can, get a picture of how the water is coming around the stowed gate. To me looking at your pictures and video, I am guessing that you are getting quite a bit of interference and turbulence off the stowed gate. From what I have been experiencing with mine, it seems that the stowed gate being tucked in far enough to allow the water to come around the hull the way it should is just as important as having the correct "offset" of the water coming off the deployed gate.
In your video it looks as though the water is starting to curl almost immediately behind the boat. I am thinking that your stowed gate is forcing that curl instead of "avoiding" the natural flow of the water allowing it to roll over to the non surf side giving you a nice smooth face...
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       09-17-2013, 2:20 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightv10 View Post
Hey Frank,

If you can, get a picture of how the water is coming around the stowed gate. To me looking at your pictures and video, I am guessing that you are getting quite a bit of interference and turbulence off the stowed gate. From what I have been experiencing with mine, it seems that the stowed gate being tucked in far enough to allow the water to come around the hull the way it should is just as important as having the correct "offset" of the water coming off the deployed gate.
In your video it looks as though the water is starting to curl almost immediately behind the boat. I am thinking that your stowed gate is forcing that curl instead of "avoiding" the natural flow of the water allowing it to roll over to the non surf side giving you a nice smooth face...
It also might be forcing some turbulence between the gate and the platform. Not knocking yours, but Bu's Surfgate is almost as much about the platform, and the platform-gate interface as the gate itself... You'll get it eventually but aside from a surfable wave from a non-listed boat, I didn't see magic... Good luck with 2.0 and 3.0, and varying degrees of list combined with gate will likely be a big step.

Good luck
Old    Russ Constable (Midnightv10)      Join Date: Feb 2012       09-17-2013, 2:52 PM Reply   
^^ I agree that Bu's platform is a big part of Surf gate but I think mainly because it allows the gate to retract in further and "get out of the way" of the flow coming around the hull. on mine there is a small amount of spray between the tab and the platform but I don't think it is impacting the wave as much as the tip of the gate interrupting the flow...
Attached Images
 
Old    Russ Constable (Midnightv10)      Join Date: Feb 2012       09-17-2013, 3:07 PM Reply   
Here is little closer view...
On mine the tip just barely digs into the wave which I think is causing a minor roll in the wave to be induced too early creating wash on the lip.
I would be curios to see the same shot / angle of Franks tab.. By the looks of the video, I am guessing his tab is cutting even harder into the Wave creating what looks like a pronounced roll in his wave. just a theory..
Attached Images
 
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-17-2013, 6:59 PM Reply   
So day 3 starts with 30 mph winds, white caps and temps in the low 40s. It was suppose to get into the mid 70s with full sun. It didn't happen. We managed to find some calmer water, the temperature never got above 65* and the sky was overcast. Water temp was the same. It still was a good 3 hrs and a 1/2 tank of fuel.

I would agree that the closed gate may be the cause of the wash. It is more prevalent in choppy water versus glassy water. The question is how to cure it or is worth trying? Removing some off-side ballast and introducing a bit of list did help. I suspect that changing the lower edge angle may help or angling the whole plate. I tried to move the tab to an in-line position, but it didn't help. I don't have a waterproof camera to get that shot. From viewing some of the other boats with a gate, most have rounded corners and, as Russ suggests, the gates seem to be further from the edge. I had thought of moving it in right from the start, but I would have had to move the lifting/tie-down hooks. It still might be worth considering.

The best tabbed wave so far on the port side was having the port ballast full, the right at 2/3 and the front 1/2-3/4. 60% trim at 11.5 mph. There is slight list with this position and it doesn't take too much out of the starboard wave if you don't want to even it up the ballast. To go any further will clean up the wave, but it steepens it as well. On the starboard side the wave remains quite good no matter what. You can get a very poppy wave as you move toward "0" trim.

As you can see from the videos, the wave is very mellow and the pocket is fairly long.

Old    Russ Constable (Midnightv10)      Join Date: Feb 2012       09-17-2013, 7:52 PM Reply   
what the heck are you listening to????
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-17-2013, 8:20 PM Reply   
I wanted to mute the sound, but I didn't know if I could, so the sound of electro...
Old    Russ Constable (Midnightv10)      Join Date: Feb 2012       09-17-2013, 8:40 PM Reply   
HAHA.. sounds like twilight zone...
Wave looks better... I know what you mean about rough vs calm water...
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-18-2013, 6:02 PM Reply   
Went out again today with a new set-up. Notice the new bottom cut with the taper. It goes up about 2" from where it was before. This is the final cut, the waves are very good on both sides and I have no reason to change it again!.







Both tabs stowed at surf speed. Very little interference.




Port Side extended and you can see some wash, but it is not coming from the tab; it is coming from the corner of the swim platform. We have just under 4000 lbs of ballast and the engine could care less at about 3000 rpm (1235 prop). It would groan a bit if we listed with less weight. Usually we didn't get any corner interference from the swim tab with one side sunk. I guess this is the new reality. It doesn't change how the wave behaves, it just adds a bit of wash to the edge.







We did another 3 hrs today, just 2 of us. There didn't seem to be much difference between full ballast and just over 1/2 all balanced. We did not list the boat at all today. One thing that was a real surprise was the push. At the end of the lake we turned away from the wave fairly aggressively to reverse course and the push was so strong you could remain wireless without fear of dropping out! WOW!! Turning into the wave side actually reduced the push with the tabs in a tight turn! Of course, the boat likes turning into the extended tab.



For those with transom speaker envy, or hate (from lack of knowledge), here is a wash over shot from a idle chop with 4000 lbs of ballast on board. Most boats with this much ballast would have water on top of the hatches, let alone 7 inches over the swim platform!


Last edited by Iceberg; 09-18-2013 at 6:06 PM.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       09-18-2013, 7:23 PM Reply   
that goofy wave looks WAY better!
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-18-2013, 7:31 PM Reply   
Here's finally 2 links to the surf tabs 2.0.

The wake is clean as my tabs are more tucked in but as said earlier - without additional weight I'm not getting any benefit from making them longer and I likely won't plumb in additional sacs. My suggestion at this point would be: go as high as you possibly can near the transom regardless of make but not above the platform and length stay between 20 - 24". Going longer will require more weight to have enough push - see video when I'm surfing. My guess is that I can achieve a longer wake by just lowering the center trim tab a bit if I have more weight in the boat but don't end up with not enough push by having longer tabs and need additional weight all the time. The LF custom is usually a fast board so - if I were to use my wife's Ronix Koal I prolly wouldn't be able to surf b/c of the rocker.

Anyway here are the vids - first one shows both rear tanks full (1500 each side) and front about half (500) and then me surfing with that setup @10.8 mph
https://vimeo.com/74893865
https://vimeo.com/74893864

Frank - nice job again - hope I'm getting to your wake too!!!
Old    Joe (jcfox00)      Join Date: Mar 2009       09-19-2013, 6:55 AM Reply   
Hey Nick! feel free to post videos of the goofy wake or me surfing if you got em'

Goofy wave = sweet!
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       09-19-2013, 8:32 AM Reply   
Frank, I noticed you have the old swim platform. Wonder if you can get the newer one and clean it up some?
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-19-2013, 1:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Frank, I noticed you have the old swim platform. Wonder if you can get the newer one and clean it up some?
Possibly, but I don't think it is worth the dollars or the effort. I guess if I really got keen, I could cut the corners and re-glass it. Of course, I would probably have to reposition the actuators. The slight amount of froth is not a concern; maybe it looks worse than it really is. I haven't had one person complain about the wave; in fact, everyone that has surfed it is very happy with either side. One semi-naysayer (overweight for the board being used) got way further back than he expected and was still able to bring it back into the pocket. He can't even go wireless with his boat and the same board.

The whole reason for the tabs/gates was to allow for a level boat. It is an absolute charm to drive now and you don't need to concern yourself with rollers. The secondary benefit was for quick changes between sides and to soften the port side wake. All of that was achieved.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       09-19-2013, 4:42 PM Reply   
That's awesome! Glad it's just cosmetic. Keep up the good work and enjoy, love seeing this stuff.
Old    Joe Sellhausen (joesell)      Join Date: Apr 2001       09-20-2013, 12:23 AM Reply   
What was the reason for trimming the bottom of the tab? Was that what was causing most of the turbulence?

We surf only on the port side because of lake rules. It looks like you really cleaned up that side. You said the pocket got longer. With stock weight, how much longer do you think pocket is?

I'm kicking around a much simpler version for this winter. I'm picturing adding a 2" receiver mounted to the swim step brackets. Then I can just put the tab on like a hitch. That way there won't be another surf tab to mess anything up. I know it would be nicer to have an automated system, but this might have to do for a while.

Now that you guys have the angles and shapes worked out. I'm hoping to find the time to get it done this winter.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-20-2013, 7:57 AM Reply   
Quote:
What was the reason for trimming the bottom of the tab? Was that what was causing most of the turbulence?
It was a bit of a guess. With Nick's tabs being narrower, I was curious to see if would do anything to the wave. It seems to have helped with the push and a bit with the wash. Also, I now have more shape control with the center trim. I was debating making it smaller again (the wood test piece), but my port surfers are telling me it's just fine.

Quote:
You said the pocket got longer. With stock weight, how much longer do you think pocket is?
It is at least one and a bit board lengths longer depending on trim, without the cliff. If I was using a Go-pro mounted on the stern I would look like I was a mile back. Light kids can go back past the water roll into the wash without being spit out.

Quote:
I'm picturing adding a 2" receiver mounted to the swim step brackets. Then I can just put the tab on like a hitch. That way there won't be another surf tab to mess anything up.
You know, I had wondered about doing something similar with some aluminum tubing as the mount and receiver. I kind of wish I would have done that first, but like a kid in a candy store, I went for the goodies on the top shelf. Stainless would be ideal if you could get some at a reasonable price. It would be easy to make and non-permanent. There would be zero issues with stress on a mount like you suggest and would remove any hardware interference. The tabs can easily be made out of 3/4" plywood and a metal support. Total cost would be minimal. Set-up would be about one minute, and that includes digging it out of the rear locker full of gear. I am sure you will (could) be happy with that.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-23-2013, 2:41 PM Reply   
Joe,

Maybe a NSS style of gate will work on our boats. I am somewhat tempted to try it at some point if I can find the time to do it. A member on MalibuCrew (Hi Altitude) did it on an older Nautique and he had very good results. His is a staged hull at the transom, but a test on an Epic might prove interesting. It would be an easy installation on an Epic both manual or with actuators (the short less expensive ones). Unfortunately I missed seeing his post when previously searching for ideas.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-24-2013, 1:24 PM Reply   
I had a bit of time on my hands this morning; I did't really want to remove the previously installed tab (3M 5200 adhesive sealant on the hinged tabs), so I used it as a support for a NSS style wave diverter. The side (14") sticks out 2" at top and about 2.5" at the bottom . Across the bottom of the hull (12") it is 1.25" below the hull.

Will it work better than the tabs? I just don't know, but if the weather holds I will give it a try tomorrow. I am kinda hoping it won't work with my hull so I don't have more work replacing the already installed tabs. But if it does work, then I will have a new project for the winter.

Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-24-2013, 3:13 PM Reply   
Frank - you have too much time ;-) ...

I'm actually waiting for Epic to give me the technical info for the surf tabs they are now putting on their boats - I would assume that they have more time to play around with their boats to actually come up with something which actually works beyond the surf gate. The only thing I know is that they mount much smaller tabs now instead of the ones I had on my boat - but it kinda proves what others have said before - Epic is sometimes just letting the owner figuring things out (guinea pig approach) instead of doing some of the homework on their own ...

but anyway - going out tonight one more time - may not be able to load up too much weight beyond dogs and fat sac but we will try to put as much in as we possibly can. If I load the boat down my swim platform is never as deep in the water as yours
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       09-24-2013, 5:10 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey_butt View Post
Frank - you have too much time ;-) ...

I'm actually waiting for Epic to give me the technical info for the surf tabs they are now putting on their boats - I would assume that they have more time to play around with their boats to actually come up with something which actually works beyond the surf gate. The only thing I know is that they mount much smaller tabs now instead of the ones I had on my boat - but it kinda proves what others have said before - Epic is sometimes just letting the owner figuring things out (guinea pig approach) instead of doing some of the homework on their own ...

but anyway - going out tonight one more time - may not be able to load up too much weight beyond dogs and fat sac but we will try to put as much in as we possibly can. If I load the boat down my swim platform is never as deep in the water as yours
4000lbs isn't enough?
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-24-2013, 8:42 PM Reply   
Maybe not with a level boat surf system (7900lbs + peeps). The Bu 23 LSV (6850lbs + wedge + peeps) and the CC G23 (8650lbs + peeps) crowd all say the same, you need the weight when level.

Nick, same hull, I don't think I weigh more than you? I hardly have a party on-board. Lately it is just one in and one on the wave! The few days we had 5 or more peeps made for a real good wave. Same goes for the day we sacked the storage compartment.
Old    Joe Sellhausen (joesell)      Join Date: Apr 2001       09-24-2013, 11:41 PM Reply   
I don't know much about the nss system. I've seen people mention it, but I never looked into it. That looks like a pretty crazy idea. So do you still extend the tab to help shape the wave or does that little bit that sticks out do all the work?
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-25-2013, 8:47 AM Reply   
Just that little bit sticking out does the work. I just didn't want to remove the tab to try it out. The tab stowed will have no affect on this test; at least that is what I believe. It also made a convenient attachment point.

The one Hi Altitude made sticks out about 1.5-2" and is about 1" on the bottom. He lagged it to his swim platform with ring lags for easy removal (wood deck). With his boat he has the round rear corners, so it is fairly long to get out past the longitudinal edge of the hull. It is amazing to see how good his wave became on an older CC. I believe he posted the results at Planet Nautique as well.

If it were to work well, making a manual attachment would be very easy using a stay in place backing plate holder with 3 points and quick pins to hold the tab in place. Obviously it would take more effort to make it actuator controlled with a slider type system. Just something to think about.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-25-2013, 9:42 PM Reply   
Our friend from down under just did an NSS style retrofit that is absolutely perfect, if it works on the water! http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=800079

Unfortunately we went out to a low water area today and the waves sucked! It might be a while for any more test results. On a brighter note, I tried out my new Phase 5 "Prop" and did a couple of spins in a row without coming off the board - OK, after a number of failed attempts. The board works better than expected.
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-26-2013, 6:29 AM Reply   
Frank - if you're into playing over winter - we should buddy up. I'm totally in for this system if it works better - we have the actuators already - so it's more of a question of the hull shape and that hasn't changed but we obviously would have to compare. Don't know if you have access to a stainless steel shop but I have ordered so many stainless steel panels for my house renovation project with custom cuts so far that I doubt it would be a big deal for the shop to do those for us. Welding the actuator mounts may be a bigger issue but I would assume that a screwed-on bracket would be enough as there is not really any resistance on moving the plate along the hull line. In addition we obviously would be able to do this much easier as the transom is flat ... his setup is really elaborate.

To answer your question earlier - yes same hull but my net weight is 3400 vs. 3000 on yours. However my tank is only 38 gls. so you gain on me there if you fill up. The rest is the same but at this time of the year it's just me and a buddy plus the dogs - so filling the additional fat sac for the left is helping but I have to admit that even w/o the tab extended and every tank full - the wake is already curling nicely on the left side with the additional weight - but the funny thing is that I don't need to dump any for my buddy who's goofy riding.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-26-2013, 10:05 AM Reply   
Quote:
yes same hull but my net weight is 3400 vs. 3000 on yours.
I don't quite understand this comment. The hull weight is the same, but the ballast is slightly less with the quick fill system. 4000 (old) vs 3600 (new). There is a slight weight difference between the small-block and big-block engine options. However, unless I fill evenly and then dump water, I doubt I get full side ballast if setting up to surf listed.

Quote:
- but the funny thing is that I don't need to dump any for my buddy who's goofy riding
So true. It is most likely the prop torque and the center shaft design with no offset for the prop or rudder.

Before I would switch to a slider gate, I would need to see a system work on a (any) flat transom boat. The wood piece I made seemed to work (remember that it was tested in shallow water and did not perform well but the tabs were not much better either), but it needs to be tuned for optimal performance and be better than what I have now to even think of switching. To find the optimal edge lengths and extensions will take some work. Who knows, maybe you only have to go out and not down?
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-26-2013, 9:36 PM Reply   
According to epic - the 2007 model was net 3000 and the 2012 was 3400 - but they never quoted a difference if the big block vs. the 350 is installed - so that's what I was referring to. According to the specs back then the ballast was still 4000 but what do I know and I never went on a scale ...
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-26-2013, 11:47 PM Reply   
I found a reference similar to what you mentioned, but then I found a bunch of other ones. The 21V comes in about 3,600. From what I see, the 23V hull without the engine is about 3200-3400lbs. Add a big block and up about you end up at about 3900lbs, not that it matters.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-27-2013, 7:29 PM Reply   
So unless we really load the boat down with peeps before the snow flies (highly unlikely), this may be the last update. It was a bit cool, but there was almost no wind or wave action to influence the tests. The water was 15-20' deep. The first 2 pictures are using the surf tabs/gates. The starboard wave remains very nice. Since the port wave is the problem child, that is the one I ran the comparison on. As a reminder, the port wave is fully surfable in its current state. The ballast was set at 100/100/50 and there was just me in the boat. I tried various lists, but it really didn't change the wave to any great extent, even if I went full list. I am sure if I had more port ballast or 6-8 peeps in the boat it would have changed the port wave significantly. However, the wave comparisons between the gate style and the SS plate style are valid. For the SS plate trial I varied the outward offset by 1/2 and 3/4" from my previous test. I believe the extra 1/2" made an improvement. I was not able to lower the plate more than I had done previously. As you will see below, the SS plate trial shows a cleaner, but steeper wave. Adjusting the trim really has a marked affect on the shape, more than the gate style.

tab/gated


tab/gated for comparison


SS plate trim varied



Distance of SS plate from hull.



From this limited test it would appear the wave may be better with a SS plate system for an Epic 23V.
Old    Joe Sellhausen (joesell)      Join Date: Apr 2001       09-28-2013, 1:58 AM Reply   
Frank,

The 1st SS pic looks a lot like what I'm used to seeing on the port side. Steep wave, with a shorter pocket. The second pic looks like a better transition and a longer pocket. It's hard to tell from the pic though. How much longer do you think the pocket is vs stock? Did anyone ride to see what kind of push there was?
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-28-2013, 7:58 AM Reply   
Yes, that is what I thought as well. That is with the trim about 25%. The second is with the trim about 55%. The pocket increased about a board length. The following pic shows more length (different extension and, trim), but I wasn't going straight so I didn't include it. Now that I've recompared this with the gated surfable wave above, this certainly looks cleaner with good length.

Only I went out for the test run. My port surf buddy had unexpected commitments.


Last edited by Iceberg; 09-28-2013 at 8:01 AM.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-29-2013, 7:51 PM Reply   
I surfed the boat today on the port side with both the tab/gate and the SS plate. There was only a driver in the boat and me surfing. I surf goofy, so take my comments accordingly about the port wave. I think the gated ride is slightly better, but the SS plate is much more variable. The speed is way more critical with the tab/gate to keep the push; I found about 11.5 mph was a good speed with as low as 11 being OK. For the SS plate, the speed could be varied from 10.3-11.7 mph with only slightly changing the push. The wave with the plate is steeper than the tab/gate, but is less steep than a listed wave and can be shaped with trim. The port wave is somewhat similar to the wave our Ozzie has with his plated surf system. The push remains quite good turning away from the wave side. I surfed a switch-back with no problems wireless.

For Epic owners, If you want a less steep wave on the port side and a level boat, either of these systems will work. If you add more weight, the wave will get better. If all you want is the biggest wave you can get, stay listed and put another 500-700lbs (or more if you want stupid big) on the surf side with another 5 or 6 in the boat.

Last edited by Iceberg; 09-29-2013 at 7:55 PM.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-29-2013, 8:53 PM Reply   
Aussie, not the Prince of Darkness! Although I did surf listening to him today.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       07-19-2014, 5:27 PM Reply   
Now that I have had more time to play with the set-up, I am finding I get better drive/push by not filling the back tanks past 50%. It definitely becomes a more playable wave for skim tricks. The tab is also not buried under water as well; maybe that is why the wave is better. Front one is full.
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       07-20-2014, 1:07 PM Reply   
That tinted lexan/polycarbonate install just looks plain sexy.
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       07-21-2014, 6:05 AM Reply   
Frank, funny was out yesterday afternoon surfing and compared that to last Sunday. Setup last Sunday was everything full plus 6 people in the boat ... took forever to dial it in - RPM was over 3200 to get to surf speed but the wake wasn't convincing. So as I have had another idea over winter (not always having the option to add live ballast) - I have added 4 more tsunami pumps to be able to fill/drain 500 lbs in each locker when needed ... not everything is hooked up yet and the switches need to go in too ... but anyway ... only wife and myself out. So filled again stock ballast all the way and added 500 lbs on the left ... best wake ever! Will take video later this week and measure distance from back of the boat to the point where I won't have enough push - I don't know how long the surf ropes usually are but I can be all the way back there and stretch my arm out and I still have push from the wake ...
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       07-21-2014, 8:53 PM Reply   
I guess I should have added this was with 5 extras in the boat, with 2 being large, so I really didn't need as much ballast, but I thought more would have been better. I guess I reached the point of little return.

FYI, as I said in my email to you, the new shaft and coupler was a good decision. The Acme 1235 pulls like a freight train but I want to try out the 14 x 18 or 20 props again to see what the wave is like, now there is no vibration. I also may pull off the FAE to see if the rooster tail disappears at wakeboard speed, not that it gets in the way on the rope, but you sure notice it from the boat!. However, I may have to wait a while as my truck's Torque Converter and possibly the trans took a dump last weekend coming home! I had just ordered a new high power built one a few days earlier. I thought I had at least another week or 2 before I had to change it out. Tip of the day, having big power costs big money to keep it running successfully; and that is after spending the money to get the big power!

Last edited by Iceberg; 07-21-2014 at 8:55 PM.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       10-02-2014, 7:34 AM Reply   
I finally went out without the FAE, just to see if it affected the wave at all. While surfing gated, the spray from the exhaust would hit the wave convergence and bounce up into the air, especially on the port side, in your face! When listed this phenomenon is minimized. Also, the exhaust fumes that previously were non-existent were worse than I expected. So, the FAE is going back on ASAP, never to come off again!

I put the 14x20 prop on as well. I got almost 45 mph out of the beast with no porpoise (lots of trim 4300 RPM)! I does take longer to get to wakeboard speed, but not really a big issue with 4 or 5 people on board and no ballast. The rooster tail seemed to be about the same and more related to the prop. The surf wave may actually be better than with the 14.5x14.25 prop (Acme 1235). I thought my 14x15.5 prop (Acme1933) that I destroyed last year was the best one so far for helping shape the wave. So, if I come across a great deal on another one, or close to it, I may switch it out. Maybe it is related to the dynamics of the prop and hull. With the 14x20 there as zero issues with launching with full ballast to surf speed and the RPM is lower. Today I had one guy who weighs 400lbs on the port side while I was surfing on the starboard side. Turns to the left or right while surfing are non-issues using the gates, but the starboard wave remains the better side. Go figure, most LH props throw a better port wave.
Old    B (fullspeed)      Join Date: Oct 2005       10-02-2014, 12:55 PM Reply   
All of those pictures of the surf wave with your Homemade Surf Gate, why would you screw up your boats like that. You just killed your resale value for sure. Sorry your surf wave all don't look good to me at all. I don't have to read this thread to know it was really all a bad idea. My opinion of coarse. If your surf wave sucked to begin with why do you think some plastic or wood tab thing a ma-gig is going to make it better. You were better off selling your boat and buying the boat with a real surf gate.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       10-03-2014, 12:00 AM Reply   
Rant on.

Everyone make choices of what they buy and what they do with and to their boats. I probably shouldn't waste my time writing this but it is obvious you believe your VLX is superior to an Epic and that is your choice and opinion. As you may or may not know, the Epic has a world class wakeboard wake. I bought this 07 3 year ago knowing that it was a very good boat at a reasonable price and being able to surf with it was just an added bonus (initially I wasn't sure I could). BTW, it throws a very nice starboard surf wave both listed and gated. It throws an OK port surf wave, but I personally could care less as I choose to surf on the starboard side. As far as installing a gate, I made a choice to not list the boat. Also, if I wanted a more surf specific boat I would have bought a Tige, which I almost did, or an Enzo 240. I certainly would not have bought a Bu. I frequently do surf behind a friend's Enzo, but I am forced to surf on the port side. So let's say I am getting good at both sides. I wakeboard regularly and I will gladly go out with anyone that want to have some fun, wakeboard, surf or even fish! Yes, I said fish with it.

As far as devaluing the boat by attaching a gate, it is probably cost neutral or a bonus for most potential buyers - but obviously not you. If I chose, I could remove any trace of the gate for minimal effort and even you wouldn't know that it was ever there. As far as trading up to a Bu with Surfgate, that isn't going to happen. The same goes for a G23, unless I win the lottery, and even then, that probably wouldn't happen. I am completely happy with a $30k boat for the limited season we have up here in Canada.

The only reason I posted this was for the other EPIC owners that were interested in seeing the results. Regardless of your comments, I know it works on this boat. If it didn't work, then I would have posted that and I would have taken it off already.

Rant over.

Last edited by Iceberg; 10-03-2014 at 12:02 AM.
Old    Nikolas Dramountanis (Greeko)      Join Date: May 2013       10-03-2014, 1:57 PM Reply   
is the wave smaller than a listed wave..it looks a touch small..
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       10-03-2014, 5:02 PM Reply   
The wave/wake is about the same but longer. The pictures were taken standing with a phone. If they were take from the platform with a fish-eye or Go-pro the wave would look much larger. I guess I need a chase boat or a Go-pro for the promo shot.

Not the greatest quality, but this show a different perspective.

Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       10-08-2014, 10:51 AM Reply   
So, what's the ultimate conclusion? Gates or NSS blades? I did the blades on my supra sunsport and was happy as a clam. My Moomba XLV has too curvy of a hull to even think about NSS style blades. For now I'm going to slap on a ghetto gate. Most have been doing theirs at 0 degrees as a straight extension of the hull (for simplicity, as we really have lots of complex angles and cutouts on our transom). I'm still thinking I might go with like a 22 degree angle. It would be harder, but I think I could pull it off...
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       10-08-2014, 6:59 PM Reply   
Quote:
My Moomba XLV has too curvy of a hull to even think about NSS style blades.
This is true, but hanging any device to this hull requires building an attachment point or using the swim platform. A big tab similar to what Mastercraft has may be the way to go, but I can't comment on that. The ghetto gate seems to work quite well.

I have noticed that boats with a somewhat rounded back seem to have a nicer wave. The Moomba throws a very nice wave listed with a lot of weight.
Old    Dean Oystreck (Apexer)      Join Date: Jun 2014       11-17-2014, 8:40 PM Reply   
SOOOOO, I'm deciding to get on the band wagon and build my own wake system. model it after the NSS. here are the rough drawings. going to look into getting the stainless laser cut. and get some 2 1/4" stroke lenco actuators. Im doing up the wiring control GPS box for the deployment and retraction speed control. so hopefully I can have a nice stand alone surf system. Im thinking it might be impossible to patch into the GPS speed on the smart tow system on the EPIC.
Attached Images
 
Old    S. R. (stingreye)      Join Date: Oct 2012       11-18-2014, 11:41 AM Reply   
Cool! Looking forward to seeing what you come up with:

These seemed interesting as an option:
Speed activated switch looking for a VSS signal
http://www.rx4speeding.com/Speed_Act...V_SAS_24V.html

Then use this GPS puck to send the VSS signal
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/izl-s9020

No idea if it would work but seemed like it might.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       11-18-2014, 12:12 PM Reply   
Well, as someone that built and implemented their own manual NSS style tabs, it's really not a big deal if they don't retract when you're surfer goes down and you have to turn around. Yes, you can turn against them, and if you just use them to your advantage and have them be an aid to your turning, they're great. At slow speeds it isn't going to be a huge factor with going straight either.

So, of course, there's a cool factor with being able to have "GPS retraction", but if it were me, it would be lowest on my priority list. I think there were maybe two times where we tried to take off after being done surfing and it was VERY obvious that we'd left the tab deployed because we shot up water from it. Just a few seconds and realization quickly hits.

Looking forward to seeing what you do however, and if choose to throw the money at GPS, cool. That said, I think that more important would be some kind of indicator that shows how far they are deployed. I put marks on my blades to show me 1", 2", and 3" of deployment. And since I could deploy or retract either side in under 5 seconds, it never got to be a big priority for powering my system.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       11-19-2014, 7:57 PM Reply   
Archer on TheMalibuCrew makes one that is integrated into the GPS. About $1k for the controller and a bit more for the surfer remote. He worked on it for about a year and change and it is a very well thought out sytem. For the amount of time I use it, I was just too cheap to buy it.

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