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Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-21-2013, 7:20 PM Reply   
Sorry for the long post but try and stick with It there is a Lesson to be given or taken depending on where your coming from.

Have been having some issues with my Battery’s

Lets just start with the obvious problems first!

My Battery's didn't seem to be holding a charge like they used to. (they are 3-4 years old)
My battery charger is a (Xantrex True charge 60a 3 Bank charger) is a smart charger”
it has been cooking or Over charging "select" battery's.

I will try to explain. I’m putting my boat back together. I re-installed all 6 of my Battery's. (Sea volt Group 31 AGM 105AH) battery’s I have 3 banks of battery's.
Each bank has “2” of the Sea Volt AGM batteries. (See diagram) I noticed my Charger was not turning off. It always turn’s Off & On but after the initial charge it pretty much go's into sleep mode so it might turn on for a few min but the it would shut right off (typical float charge cycle) this happens when the batt’s are full. I got in the boat and felt one of my battery's and it was Hot as hell, I mean “Look out” this thing could have caught fire that hot! All the other batteries were fine As far as heat.

So I just assumed that I had ONE bad battery and that’s why it started getting hot and so I just bought a new one. And decided to keep a eye on it.

I put the new battery back in and the Battery charger started cooking another battery! So now my focus was on the Battery charger itself. I talked with customer support at Xantrex and they wanted me to test all my battery's b4 sending the charger back to them.
Brian at Liquid Trends in Modesto has a real nice "Snap On" battery charger/tester. He was able to test all my batteries. Ill post picks of the individual Test slips of all 6 battery's that shows what charger found out about each battery.

Brian had said that Normal internal impedance for an AGM is somewhere between 3& 5 MA. The new battery that I just bought had an Impedance of 3.88 MH. So that was a good base line for what the battery's internal resistance should be.

The older battery's had pretty high internal resistance. Ranging from 6 to 9 MA. This might be one of my problems. Now WHY is the question!

When I put my boat back together I decided to make some changes. I made it so that each bank had the exact same length of wire between battery's and all my runs are the exact same length. Both positive and negative. The idea was to keep the resistance different length wire can create all the same.

The second thing I did was to separate all 3 of my banks during shore charge sessions with solenoids. I have 3 banks they are all linked together as one. So the charger is NOT charging 3 individual banks like it should be charging. It’s charging one large bank because all battery’s are linked. So if I have a resistance problem or bad battery with one bank my charger could be working over time to bring back the bad battery to life and in the process Over charging my other battery's.

By adding solenoids I can break the 3 banks apart. When my key is in the off position. This will allow the charger to charge the banks individually. I could also add switches to control the solenoids independently so if I wanted I could charge 2 batteries or 4 batteries or all 6 at one time.

The advantages of having a charger with mutable banks are having the ability to charge banks individually.

My thinking is that with banks that contain 2 or more battery's and battery's are located in different locations spread over the boat the issue of bank #1 being drained more that the bank #2 and then all banks being charged as one could create problems.

When all the banks Are linked during charging the charger can't charge the lowest bank more or less because its NOT on a separate charge program it just throw’s a charge threw out the entire system and when the entire system reaches a state of charge the charger shuts off.

This could mean that if you have a week battery it could be leaning on a strong Battery to even the system out and in turn drag the whole system down. Because now one battery is doing the work of 2 or more.

I drew up a diagram of what I was doing. My wires run pretty much like this any way all I need to do is add the Solenoids.

So this concept address charging during the time being plugged into 110 or shore power but it doesn't address charging while the alternator is doing the work.

Another advantage of separating banks while charging it allows you to spot a problem right away. Most multi bank charges have a display that shows you the state of charge or current going to each bank. When everything is working well all banks should charge up pretty evenly and reach full state of charge around the same time. If you find your multi bank charger is working on one bank much longer then the other IMO this is your first sign of trouble.

Wanted to run this by you guys and get some thoughts.
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Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-21-2013, 7:23 PM Reply   
Here is what $1800 in bad battery's looks like.
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Old    Detox (bass10after)      Join Date: Feb 2010       08-21-2013, 11:48 PM Reply   
can't say i've had very good luck with agm batteries either, although yours lasted longer than mine. Here's what $4800 dollars worth of batteries look like a year before they lose over 20% capacity and need to be replaced. I can't offer much insight to your problems other than i learned that they have a very quick memory, don't like to be drained beyond 50%, and need to be recharged asap to capacity. Any length of time at a drained state of charge will reduce capacity. This is all according to the person I talked to who makes batteries for their career so hopefully its all good info i'm passing along
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Last edited by bass10after; 08-21-2013 at 11:54 PM.
Old    R{west Side Ryder} W (rmotoxxx711)      Join Date: Oct 2008       08-21-2013, 11:57 PM Reply   
With AGM batteries when they won't take a charge, I've been told you
Can pull em out and turn em upside down on a piece of plywood for a day or so and then they'll take a charge again
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       08-22-2013, 6:09 AM Reply   
I have always heard that the weakest battery can bring the whol back down. "only as strong as the weakest link"

Grant - If you do decide to go back with AGM...you can always take a look at the DEKA AGM 31. I can get one here locally for $230. I'm sure at an amount of 6 you could even get a better deal. Those batteries you have are a Deka battery with a SeaVolt sticker on them.
Old    Lane (LaneXSPower)      Join Date: Mar 2013       08-22-2013, 7:49 AM Reply   
Your symptoms make it seem like your batteries are sulfating (sulfation is occuring). This can happen on batteries that do not see a full charge cycle regularly. While this can happen on all Lead-Acid batteries, the construction of AGM batteries allows the problem to become more pronounced. Since AGM batteries typically have more plates that are located closer to each other, the sulfation can occur more quickly that a flooded-style battery.

If your batteries are sulfated, they are likely your new anchors. There are battery chargers on the market that advertise the ability to "de-sulfate" batteries using techniques ranging from high-voltage charging to pulsed charging. However, there is never a guarantee that this will work. In fact, I have not seen any indication that "pulsed-charging" can desulfate a battery. So far as high-voltage charging is concerned, I have seen very few instances where this seems to improve the function of the battery.

High voltage is the enemy of any AGM battery. On our 12V batteries, we do not recommend charging over 14.5V - this is because the heat generated inside the battery will start to increase to a level where the battery will become damaged. However I have seen a 15V charge cycle, coupled with a deep dischage, and an additional 15V charge cycle improve the function of a sulfated 12V battery. In is imprtant to note that this does not work MOST of the time, also the functionality of the battery is severely diminished from the new or non-sulfated performance. However, this can allow the user to grab a little more life out of (what would've been) a lead brick.

Again, I do not recommend charging 12V AGM batteries above the recommended voltage as determined by the manufacturer.

ALWAYS STOP CHARGING any battery that becomes hot to the touch. You may even notice that the battery becomes hotter even after the charger has been disconnected - the battery will cool, but it will take some time.

Sulfated batteries can swell, ALWAYS STOP CHARGING any battery that starts to swell. Slightly swollen batteries can still perform well, but the charge cycle will need to be completed after the battery cools.
Old    Lane (LaneXSPower)      Join Date: Mar 2013       08-22-2013, 7:54 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmotoxxx711 View Post
With AGM batteries when they won't take a charge, I've been told you
Can pull em out and turn em upside down on a piece of plywood for a day or so and then they'll take a charge again
No disrespect intended, because there is a lot of misinformation about batteries that gets repeated:

However, you do not need to take advice from the person that told your this. The idea that the orientation of an AGM battery, and the material on which it rests has any effect on charging or discharging is completely without merit or scientific basis.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-22-2013, 8:09 AM Reply   
I heard a new term Wiring Architecture this is how one would describe how battery's or something is hooked up. Here is somthing I drew up that shows Recommended wiring of a multi bank battery system (like my'n) Please note how I used the words NORMAL & Recommended & did not use the words Correct or Incorrect. Like many people hear I had my system hooked up the NORMAL way for years and it was only after I had problems and asked some experts did I find this information out.
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Old    Detox (bass10after)      Join Date: Feb 2010       08-22-2013, 8:18 AM Reply   
so i understand how that is theoretically the "recomended" wiring scheme. However, i wonder in the real world application how much better this actually can be for the batteries? Would yours have lasted 2 more years because of adding 5 extra feet of cable to the pos and neg wiring? I feel like sometimes these manufacturers products just don't live up to what they're selling you and then something that was never mentioned in any literature or was even recommended to begin with somehow becomes the cause of the problem. If wiring like that is so critical why wouldn't a battery manufacturer include a diagram such as yours with their batteries? It surely would reduce warranty claims if it could cause so much damage.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-22-2013, 8:22 AM Reply   
Detox: Im not saying AGMs are bad. Yes Im having issues with my'n but Im sure 90% of my problems are self generated. Either a bad charger or the way I have been charging them or the way they were hooked up OR a combo of all of the above.
Murphy: Thanks for the offer. I ended up replacing my sea volts with new ones for just under $1200. My cost was around $278 each. I had some credit Pro Rate from west marine because the bats were less than 5 years old.
Lance: I agree 100% As far as not charging I re-charge each night with a smart charger & I have a full digital Balmar system in my boat with a programmable voltage regulator that's set for AGM battery's.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-22-2013, 8:32 AM Reply   
Detox: I guess you have to look at it as a COMBO. The "Idea" of the even lengths in wire runs is to make the resistance between battery's even the difference 5 foot of 0- agw and 1 foot of 0-agw might be little to nothing. But when you start stacking battery's up like you and I have it can make a measurable difference. So if you think that just making all your wire lengths the same is going to correct all your battery's issues ,Yes I agree with you that's not going to happen. I'm not claiming to be a expert I'm just passing on information I gathered from experts and this is what I was told. And when I scratch my head it makes seance. And yes its normal to question it and or doubt it .
Old    TJ (Houstonshark)      Join Date: Jan 2011       08-22-2013, 8:33 AM Reply   
I've not had very good luck with AGM batteries in the past, specifically with the Kinetik HC600 I've used in a couple stereo coolers I've built. I recently replaced it with the XS Power version so we will see how well it works.

I had a problem with mine over charging my lead acid batteries. Have you checked the voltage while charging?

Grant, are you using the temp sensor for your Xantrex charger? In addition to it overcharging, the temp sensor input must have been bad on mine because the batteries would get hot and start to bubble but the charger just kept charging.

It was a lot cheaper to replace my 3 Trojan 12V golf cart batteries (155AHr) batteries at $165ea than your AGM batteries though.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-22-2013, 8:39 AM Reply   
TJ; I have a Temp sensor coming from my Balmar Alternator going to my bank. I don't have a temp sensor for my shore power. That might be a good add on.
Old    Chase Tillett (tn_rider)      Join Date: Dec 2009       08-22-2013, 9:00 AM Reply   
Grant, in my work field we wire up to 16 batteries in 2 separate banks. Your recommended scheme is the way we wire them. I have seen people wire them both ways but have never seen a difference in the two as far as life of the batteries goes. I had kinetic batteries and switched to XS Power and its a night and day difference for play time.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       08-22-2013, 9:03 AM Reply   
I get running the pos. to one battery and the neg. to the other battery when the two are in parallel. The charger leads should especially be wired this way.
I get breaking up the banks with solenoids for shore charging and maintenance in consideration of a) the different cable lengths, b) allowing the charger to function as an isolated 3-bank charger thereby splitting the battieries up so that one bad cell of one bad battery is less likely to impact the others, and c) so that the independent banks/batteiries can be measured separately and more frequently and early enough to lessen the odds of one bad cell/battery taking down the whole.
Additional thoughts are:
Consumer grade batteries should not be discharged below 11.8/9 volts or these deep cycle batteries will have dramatically shortened life spans.
The problems with the bad battery does not stop when it is somewhat isolated while shore charging. It is still doing damage to the whole while on the alternator or at rest. So it has to be caught early enough related to the problem and related to the length of service for the entire battery system in order for a replacement to save the collective. A battery that is getting hot must be yanked from the chain immediately.
Multiple batteries come with risks that cannot be totally eliminated.
Banks spread around the boat with varying cable lengths is less optimum but unavoidable in some cases.
When you have multiple banks sharing a single alternator you will not have perfection.
The size of the smart charger has to be properly matched to the battery's capacity plus the typical depth of discharge. A 60 amp charger for 630 or so collective amp/hours seems in order. You don't need that much capacity if the charger role is mainly maintenance or discharge cycles are generally shallow. An 80 amp charger is the limit but not too much if you are routinely cycling the batteries at or below 12.0 volts.
Again, there are inherent conflicts that you can never completely avoid.
Would the construction of golf cart batteries be more forgiving of deeper discharge cycles?

David
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       08-22-2013, 9:11 AM Reply   
Oftentimes people compare play time of the old battery bank to the new battery bank. But that's not an objective comparison when comparing 'aged' to 'new'. Of course you will instantly see a big difference. The only legit comparison would be to measure the old bank when it was also new, measuring current draw, starting voltage, ending voltage, etc., saving that documentation and making the identical measurements under the identical conditions with the new batteries. There is just too much opinion swing from battery brand to battery brand.

David
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-22-2013, 9:45 AM Reply   
David I agree brand "X vs brand "Y is a big factor but not the end all. You can destroy a BMW just as fast or just as easy as a Benz. Battery technology changes & gets better all the time. The trickle down or the availability for high tec battery's seems to be pretty slow in this field (Stereo or Marine). I can see the electric car industry producing some nice battery's that may or may not end up as a power supply for a system in the future. Imagine pulling up to a charge station and plugging your boat into a 220 outlet to charge your stereo LOL.
Old    Detox (bass10after)      Join Date: Feb 2010       08-22-2013, 11:14 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by grant_west View Post
Detox: I guess you have to look at it as a COMBO. The "Idea" of the even lengths in wire runs is to make the resistance between battery's even the difference 5 foot of 0- agw and 1 foot of 0-agw might be little to nothing. But when you start stacking battery's up like you and I have it can make a measurable difference. So if you think that just making all your wire lengths the same is going to correct all your battery's issues ,Yes I agree with you that's not going to happen. I'm not claiming to be a expert I'm just passing on information I gathered from experts and this is what I was told. And when I scratch my head it makes seance. And yes its normal to question it and or doubt it .
I actually have all the same length wiring made up for my houseboat. All those are 2v cells in series to make my 24v system. Everything you're saying makes perfect sense, i just can relate to the frustration of wasting money on batteries. My system uses temp sensors and very specific charge voltages and amperage's based on the algorithms built into the charge controllers and specifics programed for the batteries. (I have two one for solar one for generator that is also the inverter) Even with all this technology there still was a way for the batteries to get damaged. What gets me about my system and yours is that even with all this charging equipment we still don't really know the cause of why it happened. It could be that you needed these to be 3 different banks, which makes sense, or it could not be. The only thing I do know is after all the time spent troubleshooting, pulling batteries, testing batteries, putting batteries back in, ultimately replacing batteries, buying batteries then buying a second round of batteries is that I HATE battery problems.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-22-2013, 8:42 PM Reply   
Detox; I feel your pain. I know what your saying when you talked about " no knowing" because your right I don't know for cretan what went wrong. What I do know is that the way I have it set up now I will have a more heads up of each bank. I think that's the first step in stopping the bleeding. My brother and I were talking about some how setting up a system that show's the state of charge of each battery. Is their an expert that might be able to come take a look at your system and give your set up a look over
Old    adam (03suprassv)      Join Date: Jan 2009       08-23-2013, 6:57 AM Reply   
I had 2 blue top optimas for 6 years and finally replaced them this year. I have an onboard charger made for agm batteries. I always plug it in when i get home until i go out again. I replaced them with deka agm 31 batteries this season. My local battery distributors price was $190 per batt.
Old    Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       08-23-2013, 8:45 AM Reply   
The batteries were 3-4 years old....assuming the use they got, how long did you expect them to last?

I'd say 3-4 years is about right....maybe 5 tops.

Maybe u were doing everythign right....and they hit their life expectancy.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-23-2013, 10:20 AM Reply   
Adam: I don't how long battery's in my application or a typical stereo should last. But that's a good question. For example all new battery's in my system
cost around $1800 so if you divide that by 5 years your looking at around $360 a year or $30 a month towards a new bank. Not bad when you look at it that way. That's if you get a full 5 years out of your battery's. So I guess most people would not argue with 5 years worth of use. It just it might take a few try's to get your system to the level
where you batt's last 5 years Kind of like what Detoxis going threw. This is the 3rd Battery bank change or over haul I have done. Each time things have gotten better. I started with Blue Top Optima's and then Switched to a bigger Sea Volt AGM (group 27) then I switched again to a Larger Sea Volt AGM (group 31) my current battery. Each time my battery bank got a bit larger and my charging equipment got better my run times went up. So to me it seems like my battery bank and charging system has been a constant state of change or upgrade. So if you have a Large (Heavy Draw System) and your batt's last 5 years I guess your doing good.
Old    Detox (bass10after)      Join Date: Feb 2010       08-23-2013, 11:39 AM Reply   
mine are 7 year warrantied maintenance free batteries designed to run a house off the grid, which is what my houseboat is.. I talked to the owner of the battery company and purchased the second set at close to cost which is still a lot of money. Spent hours on the phone with the battery owner and we made some setting changes and user changes so we'll see how they hold up this time around. Hes more than satisfied with the solar set up and generator set up so I hope i get 7 years out of them. I still have the old batteries for sale... 80% capacity for batteries that big is still great and i could have continued to use them after the factory reconditioned them, but i chose to swap them out since i was doing other work at the time.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       08-23-2013, 12:52 PM Reply   
Grant,
Have you measured the resting voltage level of the battery bank(s) after the typical depletion?
Have you measured the resting voltage beforehand, an hour removed from any type of charging?
The number of cycles and depth of cycles certainly has a large impact on declining battery performance regardless of the age. There is much greater tolerace for the number of cycles than there is for deeper cycles, even for a deep cycle rated battery. It's not a balanced ratio.

One bad battery (heating and swelling) certainly accelerates the degradation of the entire bank.

Since you already have the isolation solenoids, adding a dedicated and local digital volt meter with an Off/Multi-position selector switch would allow you to conveniently measure each bank separately at any time and circumstance.

It's also effective to measure the topped off banks individually after several days of isolation and without charging in order to detect any level of self-discharge. It's not as immediate as a load tester but is just as telling if you have the patience to wait.

David
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-24-2013, 8:56 AM Reply   
Ok lets try this for the 3rd time
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-24-2013, 9:09 AM Reply   
david that's a great Idea. But that's a not a simple job. We fly RC airplanes. They use Lipo polymer battery's. They are made up of various cells depending on the size of each different battery Some have 6 or 7 cells . The ones we use have "3" - 4v Cells that make the battery a total of 12v. The battery's have a balancing cable. This port or wire that comes out of the battery allows the battery charger to balance or even out each cell in the battery. This way of charging shows you the voltage in each cell and the total charged or discharged voltage of the battery. "IF" the marine battery's we use had this balancing port it would make your Idea a reality very easy. I would love to have this information at my finger tips But I'm not interested in creating this technology. I got my hands full right now but this is a great Idea for company's like Deka and others. In fact I'm surprised that they don't exist already.

Last edited by grant_west; 08-24-2013 at 9:15 AM.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-14-2013, 10:06 AM Reply   
Just a follow up.
I have 6 new battery's installed and Isolated. (Separated during shore power charge cycle)
I got Xantrex to replace the Charger with a New one. (The old one was over charging)

All 6 battery's are charged and in a state of float. Testing each bank separately is pretty handy. I can now tell the voltage of each Bank and more importantly my smart charger can see each bank independently and charge and balance each bank so that when turn the key on all all 3 banks link and they are all with in the same voltage range. This will also help out spotting a potential week bank or battery
Old    TJ (Houstonshark)      Join Date: Jan 2011       09-16-2013, 1:54 PM Reply   
That's good to hear Grant! My Xantrex charger has been perfect since getting it swapped for the same reason. Did you install a temp sensor? I would assume, you'd install it on the battery that is the farthest away from the charger but I'm not sure.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-16-2013, 11:17 PM Reply   
Huston no temp senc for the shore charger. I have one hooked to the Balamar alternator voltage regulator. What's your xantrex bat temp sence look like
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Old    TJ (Houstonshark)      Join Date: Jan 2011       09-17-2013, 5:21 AM Reply   
This is it:
http://www.xantrex.com/power-product...re-sensor.aspx
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-17-2013, 7:16 AM Reply   
I have 3 banks of battery's. If I ran a BTS would you have to run 3 of them or would you just use one on the furthest bank away
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Old    TJ (Houstonshark)      Join Date: Jan 2011       09-17-2013, 9:52 AM Reply   
Run it to the battery that is the farthest away. That is likely to be the one that will get the hottest due to charging. The charger will adjust the voltage based on the temp.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-18-2013, 7:18 AM Reply   
Huston I appreciate the advice and the link but do you think it makes sence to just add 1 BTS.( battery temp sence)
Yes the furthest bank could be monitored but what about the 2 other banks what about them? I'm guessing you can't have several BTS's


This is where the BTS hooks up from my voltage regulator
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Old    Detox (bass10after)      Join Date: Feb 2010       09-18-2013, 8:07 AM Reply   
it depends on how the charge controller works but i'd try and figure out a way to use at least one sensor. Temperature compensation in our area is pretty important given the daytime heat when we use our boats. In my case the batteries are in the hull of my houseboat thats partially submerged so the ambient temperature stays fairly consistent compared to outside. Its something worth looking into with balmar i'd think, especially with the cost of batteries and your setup. Just a single temp sensor is prob no more than $80 and at least you'd be controlling your charge algorithm based on the battery most likely to incur damage from heat. Once you get a hold of one, i'm sure you'd be able to devise a way for 3 if you felt it necessary
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-18-2013, 9:06 AM Reply   
detox that's good advice and for $80 or less its worth the investment.
I currently have a BTS hooked to my Max Charge voltage regulator. This BTS works when the 220amp balmar alternator (photo) is in use. The alternator also has its own temp sence you can see it on one of the bolts in the photo. The thinking is "most of the time" the alternator is in use is during the day when air temps can get over 100. The BTS can adjust charge output.
Now most of the time when I'm charging via shore power (xantrex 60 amp ) its overnight when temps are lower. But a BTS hooked up like the way you and Huston have recommended would have saved me when the charger cooked the last battery. Ill check with Xantrex and see if a multi BTS can be hooked together
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Old    Ifishok™ (ifishok)      Join Date: Mar 2002       09-18-2013, 4:09 PM Reply   
Do you have a link on where I could get the alternator arm you have, I have looked and looked and could find one like that. If you have a part number that would be great too, I have the same motor. Thanks.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-18-2013, 10:42 PM Reply   
Here is a parts list from Mc Master Car
Part Number Description Unit Price

4483T401
Ultra-Strength Ball Joint Rod End 3/8"-24 Rh Male Shank, 9544 Pound Load Capacity
$14.38 Each

4483T402
Ultra-Strength Ball Joint Rod End 3/8"-24 Lh Male Shank, 9544 Pound Load Capacity
$14.38 Each

8419K63
Easy-Adjust Threaded Connecting Rod 6" Overall Length, 3/8"-24 Threaded Female Ends
$13.46 Each

Merchandise Total $42
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-18-2013, 10:47 PM Reply   
Take some measurements because my alternator is bigger then most the 7 inc rod worked good for me but you might need a longer one. Measure the distance between the 2 points to give you a idea of what to order. My advice is to order a longer one and if you need a shorter one you can cut your longer one down or just order a shorter one.
Old    Ifishok™ (ifishok)      Join Date: Mar 2002       09-19-2013, 4:24 AM Reply   
Thank you sir.

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