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Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-05-2013, 6:58 AM Reply   
Who has installed the surf gate as aftermarket accessory on a Malibu or any other boat brand here in the Twin Cities and if so - where did you go?

I'm kinda done with my surf trim tabs on my Epic as they don't achieve what they're supposed to ... but I honestly don't have the time to remove the existing tabs, redo gel coat to cover screw holes etc. and then mount the new stuff (mostly the gel coat repair - the rest isn't that big of a deal).

Has anybody done this here? I'm asking for recommendations but I'm not bound to a specific dealer by all means - I'm usually getting my boat maintained at the Windmill Marina in Afton and I'm happy there but I go there because of the engine ...
Old    Boarder 42 (jhartt3)      Join Date: Jan 2012       08-05-2013, 7:35 AM Reply   
i'm sure any aftermarket device similar to surfgate would land the seller in court with Malibu. So i doubt there is a commercial option available. but if you want to build your own you can check out www.themalibucrew.com there is a guy on there who has built a pretty cool "teak gate"
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-05-2013, 7:38 AM Reply   
that's kinda the point - I read thru all the threads (kudos to Archer) and it's pretty clear how to do it - it's a question of time on my end and knowledge (gel coat repair). So I'm not asking a Malibu dealer to sell/install me a surf gate - I'm asking for a place who installs tabs vertically instead of horizontally but knows what I'm talking about?
Old    Jimmy Winkle (jimmyd)      Join Date: Apr 2012       08-05-2013, 7:48 AM Reply   
I may be wrong, but I believe you will run into a problem with hull reinforcement. I would think that is the major reason why Malibu doesn't offer Surfgate as an add on to previous year models.
Old    Boarder 42 (jhartt3)      Join Date: Jan 2012       08-05-2013, 8:10 AM Reply   
the tabs i've seen arent nearly as long or the same shape as the gate. if you find someone that will install something that produces the same effect as surfgate let us know i'm sure others would be interested.
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-05-2013, 8:26 AM Reply   
just to cover a few things and to ensure that we're not rehashing things: The gate/tab needs to be about 18 - 24 inches long and instead of using a stainless steel tab from Lenco I would use colored Lexan 1/2" thick (sold here http://www.ebay.com/itm/SOLAR-GRAY-P...item53e51f1493) - matches somewhat the color of the boat - can smoothen the edges and it's pretty solid (believe me - this won't bend and I can also smoothen the edges so nobody gets hurt). My advantage is likely that the Epic transom has a straight side edge - so I don't need to mess around with the hinge mounts etc. - it's really straight forward). In addition I have the cut in platform - so eventually the gate tucks perfectly underneath the platform when retracted. Put the Lenco actuator with a 4 1/2" stroke on it - so you have enough room to push the gate out. My only problem will be that I can hook up the straps so they don't damage the tabs - that I guess will be the biggest issue.

As I already have the stock surf tabs - I can rewire the whole thing in less than 5 minutes. As of now - just w/o the ability to make the whole thing automated based on speed (but I'm waiting for Archer to sell his speed controlled remote - I otherwise will probably tinker around with something similar as the GPS signal is available but that can wait).

So to repeat the question: Instead of going to my regular marina who can repair the gel coat after removing the stock tabs and mount the new ones - which dealer in the Twin Cities has done so already and knows what I'm talking about (because I do believe that a good boat shop can repair any gel coat - so that really won't limit my options but the knowledge of the surf gate does)?
Old    Boarder 42 (jhartt3)      Join Date: Jan 2012       08-05-2013, 8:36 AM Reply   
i'll repeat my initial statement that ANYONE installing these COMMERCIALLY will in all likelihood be sued by Malibu. they already have a law suit against Nautique. and that isnt even close to the same device. You are trying to replicate something that has a patent.
Old    Supreme Device (rullery)      Join Date: Jul 2012       08-05-2013, 8:44 AM Reply   
I could be wrong but I think you will have a hard time finding a reputable dealer in the area that will do this for you. I agree with Boarder 42, the Malibu dealers will obviously have the best knowledge of surf gate, but doubt they would be eager to retrofit an imitation technology on an Epic. There would also be a fair amount of trial and error to get the maximum effect in your finished product, requiring your time in working closely with the mechanics.
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       08-05-2013, 8:47 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey_butt View Post
just to cover a few things and to ensure that we're not rehashing things: The gate/tab needs to be about 18 - 24 inches long and instead of using a stainless steel tab from Lenco I would use colored Lexan 1/2" thick (sold here http://www.ebay.com/itm/SOLAR-GRAY-P...item53e51f1493) - matches somewhat the color of the boat - can smoothen the edges and it's pretty solid (believe me - this won't bend and I can also smoothen the edges so nobody gets hurt). My advantage is likely that the Epic transom has a straight side edge - so I don't need to mess around with the hinge mounts etc. - it's really straight forward). In addition I have the cut in platform - so eventually the gate tucks perfectly underneath the platform when retracted. Put the Lenco actuator with a 4 1/2" stroke on it - so you have enough room to push the gate out. My only problem will be that I can hook up the straps so they don't damage the tabs - that I guess will be the biggest issue.

As I already have the stock surf tabs - I can rewire the whole thing in less than 5 minutes. As of now - just w/o the ability to make the whole thing automated based on speed (but I'm waiting for Archer to sell his speed controlled remote - I otherwise will probably tinker around with something similar as the GPS signal is available but that can wait).

So to repeat the question: Instead of going to my regular marina who can repair the gel coat after removing the stock tabs and mount the new ones - which dealer in the Twin Cities has done so already and knows what I'm talking about (because I do believe that a good boat shop can repair any gel coat - so that really won't limit my options but the knowledge of the surf gate does)?
Dude, have your shop patch your holes and fix your gel coat. After they are done, do your deal. What's so hard about drilling a couple of holes and installing the tabs vertically. NOBODY is installing aftermarket surfgates commercially. The pros who know about surf gate will be Malibu dealers and you can be sure as sh*T that for sake of their dealership privileges and patent infringements, they aren't going to do it.

How's this sound, rent me a garage, bring me a project Nautique 2001 as payment and I will do everything for free labor if you provide the materials and pay my programmer that I know could setup the GPS/system logic to run the tabs based on speed - you bring the boat to me, the project nautique (which will be my payment), rent the garage for 9 months (so I can do your project and then mine) and then I will use your boat for half of next summer to test out the system and deliver it back to you.

SO:
1. All materials ready to install
2. Rent the garage
3. Bring the epic
4. Bring the Nautique
5. Send me a credit card in case I need to buy anything extra
6. Sign all releases that I am not responsible for your boat or boats warranty
7. Beer, I forgot I need beer

I will deliver in one year and you will be the only Epic with Epicgait. How's that sound
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-05-2013, 8:48 AM Reply   
and that still doesn't matter. I'm not asking a boat dealer to install me a surf gate - I'm asking them to install me some tabs on the transom of my boat according to 'my specs'. If they know what a surf gate is - that helps them to understand. As said - it's not rocking science - we all know that by now - Malibu just patented it first (see a discussion I had a few weeks ago in regards of the CATS system from Centurion).

I DON'T HAVE TIME TO DO IT - that's it. If the shop tells me they won't do it b/c of possible litigation - that's a their deal and I obviously will have no other hcoice than respecting their decision but I'm not going to tell them. If it comes down to that I have to go to my shop and get the stuff removed, gel coat fixed and have to do the rest by myself - so be it. But if I can get it done in a single wash while I'm out of town - a LOT easier.
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       08-05-2013, 9:15 AM Reply   
See my offer above. Let me know.
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-05-2013, 9:49 AM Reply   
need better turnaround ;-)
Old    Jon0 (mro)      Join Date: Jun 2008       08-05-2013, 9:54 AM Reply   
Are you able to order surf gate/NSS from the parts department as you would a starter motor? If so just get a backyard mechanic to do it. There's tonnes of gelcoat repair services that will show up to your location.
I don't see why this has to be tied into speed. From my limited knowledge its so you don't rip everything off the transom at cruising speed. If that's all it is, who cares. Perfect pass will limit your speed, and you just have to remember to retract it manually when you turn it off.
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       08-05-2013, 10:00 AM Reply   
I'll do it and return to you by the end of the winter. Hey - the garage rental will be the same as storage for the winter. The project nautique doesn't have to be pretty, it has to have a trailer, engine and transmission that run and be structurally sound minus stringers, beyond that, no big deal. So all stipulations apply and I won't use it for half of next summer, but I will need a test period...
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-05-2013, 1:47 PM Reply   
This thread has some decent info and a link to another site with some good info: http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showt...ight=surf+gate
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-05-2013, 2:36 PM Reply   
I just ordered all the necessary parts - my shop will remove my tabs, do the gel coat work and then put the 'epic gate' on - pictures (before/after including wake) will follow in 2 weeks when it's all said and done - and no I'm not towing my boat out to VT ... I was asking for any knowledge in the Twin Cities in my OP but I guess we're going in circles here today because I know what I would be doing if I had the time.

For anybody else - this is the thread on the malibucrew website I was refering to earlier - Martin Archer is the guy who even got the electronic to work via the GPS ... so the gates extend up to a particular speed and you can make the switch side2side - I'll have to do it manually for now ...
http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/...ate-teak-gate/

So most of the ideas I did get from there besides the fact that I already have the whole electric setup needed for the gates. The guy at Windmill Marina knows what I want to do and with some drawings for the technician we'll get it done next week.
Old    Russ Constable (Midnightv10)      Join Date: Feb 2012       08-05-2013, 2:43 PM Reply   
Just curious..
how much for the gel coat work?
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-05-2013, 3:46 PM Reply   
@Russ - will post details of cost etc. once I paid the bill ;-) I honestly don't really care - if it works - I'll be smiling ear to ear and I likely will save a lot of money very quickly if I need less ballast - the darn 8.1l engine is seriously going thru gas as if there's no tomorrow ... 5 gallons/hour the minimum :-(
Old    Russ Constable (Midnightv10)      Join Date: Feb 2012       08-05-2013, 4:13 PM Reply   
yeah just curious what those costs would be..
I have installed a "surf enhancing" device on my MB this year and even though I am very very happy with it, just wonder what it would take if I ever change things up... I may need to swap out my hinges for something different.

I have not noticed much of a savings in gas so far (PCM 409, Acme 2079, typically around 2000 - 2500 in ballast) but man being able to switch surf sides in about 8 seconds as well as having a level stable boat is sweet!!!
Old    Brearly Mason (Brearly_Mason)      Join Date: Nov 2012       08-05-2013, 4:43 PM Reply   
Has anyone had negative effects on their strut or alignment problems? The strut on most boats is not designed for a lateral side load like those put on.
Old     (newwhit)      Join Date: Mar 2007       08-05-2013, 5:28 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightv10 View Post
yeah just curious what those costs would be..
I have installed a "surf enhancing" device on my MB this year and even though I am very very happy with it, just wonder what it would take if I ever change things up... I may need to swap out my hinges for something different.

I have not noticed much of a savings in gas so far (PCM 409, Acme 2079, typically around 2000 - 2500 in ballast) but man being able to switch surf sides in about 8 seconds as well as having a level stable boat is sweet!!!
dude, lets see some of your ingenuity! post pics in and out of water, before and after wakes and list vs no list. i would love to see it on an MB!!
Old    Russ Constable (Midnightv10)      Join Date: Feb 2012       08-05-2013, 7:11 PM Reply   
I don't want to hijack Nicolas's thread but I will put something together and post it soon.
Just got back from a 2 week trip to lake Chelan Wa and was really able to put it through the paces..
Just need Archers magic box to get it automated..
Old     (newwhit)      Join Date: Mar 2007       08-05-2013, 7:14 PM Reply   
Yeah, you are right, sorry. I did not mean to switch subjects. Just wanna see what everyone has come up with. On this topic or another...

Nicolas, be sure to show us how it turns out! In and out of the water and of course WAKES!
Old    Scott (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       08-05-2013, 8:01 PM Reply   
http://www.volvopenta.com/SiteCollec...System_eng.pdf

Me thinks you can just mount these to the side and be happy.

Go to page 3 and you will see they have 2 different sizes.
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Old    Russ Constable (Midnightv10)      Join Date: Feb 2012       08-05-2013, 8:17 PM Reply   
I wish someone would try those Volvo tabs..
I thought about it but would not work with my hulls curvature..
Sure look like they would work though on the right hull
Old    Charlie Zulu (Pad1Tai)      Join Date: Jan 2013       08-05-2013, 8:37 PM Reply   
From what I understand... The suit against correct craft for the NSS system is from Volvo Penta.. Not Malibu... The Volvo QL trim system has been around a long time and is patented through Volvo..
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       08-05-2013, 8:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey_butt View Post
@Russ - will post details of cost etc. once I paid the bill ;-) I honestly don't really care - if it works - I'll be smiling ear to ear and I likely will save a lot of money very quickly if I need less ballast - the darn 8.1l engine is seriously going thru gas as if there's no tomorrow ... 5 gallons/hour the minimum :-(
5 gal an hour... That's actually pretty good, what do you expect it to be?!
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-05-2013, 8:50 PM Reply   
At least here are those pictures before removing the factory setup - not going back to the discussion I had about CATS - look it up as we were discussing this setup as well and I got some very valuable info which lead me do change it ... Only one for now - safari isn't allowing me to put more Han one up
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Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-06-2013, 12:07 AM Reply   
Wait... Those are just trim tabs. Can't you just get those from West Marine or anywhere? I'm also looking at the single actuators and thinking there has to be a lot of flex in the plates givin the width and since there's only one actuator per side. Curious (big time) to see how this works out for you... I hope it does.
Old     (nitrousbird)      Join Date: Sep 2008       08-06-2013, 2:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyd View Post
I may be wrong, but I believe you will run into a problem with hull reinforcement. I would think that is the major reason why Malibu doesn't offer Surfgate as an add on to previous year models.
All hulls same for 2012 vs 2013, yet surfgate is on the 2013. No reinforcements. Surfgate doesn't put that much stress on the hull.
Old    Matt Beck (matt_beck)      Join Date: Apr 2009       08-06-2013, 6:56 AM Reply   
I get most all of it but I don't understand why someone hasn't purchased new platform brackets and built a removable paddle. Seems like it would be pretty easy to play with angles, etc. Done surffing = remove "paddles". I've seen posts of people drilling into their platforms or not wanting to drill their platforms. Buy new brackets and make a surf platform!
Old     (newwhit)      Join Date: Mar 2007       08-06-2013, 7:10 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightv10 View Post
I wish someone would try those Volvo tabs..
I thought about it but would not work with my hulls curvature..
Sure look like they would work though on the right hull
those look very interesting... again mounted vertically, right? like NSS or whatever?
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       08-06-2013, 7:22 AM Reply   
NSs displaces water horizontally and vertically (bottom and side of hull). For the Volvo tabs to work just like NSS you'd need to figure a way to mount them diagonally.

Lots of discussion about this on the malibucrew (including home brew NSS).
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-06-2013, 7:31 AM Reply   
@Mark - I said this is BEFORE the change and no they don't flex - I'm not sure if this is 12 or even 10 gauge. And to clean up a few more rumors: Malibu has only patented the NAME - not the idea as they probably can't or figured it would be too hard to do - see here
http://tsdr.uspto.gov/documentviewer...Index=0&page=1

The 2nd story about hull reinforcement etc.: The gate is basically channeling the water to go a little bit further before converging back into the center. Therefore the biggest pressure is applied at the end of the gate/tab. Based on that the force transferred back to the attachment point at the hull is based on the point where your actuator is attached to the tab (pivot). This force will obviously now be pulling the tab at its mounting point to the outside (minus the pressure the water will still apply there from the outside in). Now I'm not sure how solid the transom is but it seems to me that this is a pretty piece of fiberglass etc. and chances that the hull breaks before the hinge (or more so the screws) get pulled out is probably not likely. I'm not an engineer and have paid some attention to physics in school but that's a while back but I have seen a few people here who could easily do this calculation - so chime in if you feel like it - proving me right or wrong - doesn't matter.

And to add to this: What most people have noticed is that you somewhat have to countersteer because the boat is basically plowing sideways thru the water - mine already does when I extend one of the currently mounted tabs - the boat immediately starts to turn to the side where the trim tab is extended. The thread on the malibu forum also contains a comment from Martin Archer that he initially didn't have the whole thing hooked into a speed control - so he forgot to retract them when they went skiing. He said that it sprayed a lot but the gate was still there afterwards.
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-06-2013, 7:35 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhartt3 View Post
i'll repeat my initial statement that ANYONE installing these COMMERCIALLY will in all likelihood be sued by Malibu. they already have a law suit against Nautique. and that isnt even close to the same device. You are trying to replicate something that has a patent.
Only valid if Nick were trying to "sell" them. He can purchase whatever he wants and fabricate it however he wants - just so long as he's not trying to market/sell patented product.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-06-2013, 8:53 AM Reply   
Are you going to need to remove your transom tie downs? Also, looks like the old style Epic swim platform would fit the surfgate better as it extends out to the edges of the hull a little further as I recall.
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-06-2013, 9:08 AM Reply   
Timmy, not sure about the tie downs yet. The gate in its retracted position would follow the swim platform just along the edge - so you eventually won't be able to step on it by accident etc. However if the boat is on the trailer - I might have to extend them a bit as I would have the tie downs going on the inside of the tab - not on the outside to have the proper water displacement/flow. The gate itself would the line of the hull otherwise - it is slightly curved but I don't think that's going to effect it much. From what I gathered the gate will be 9 wide by 22 deep (can always shorten if too long) based on a 1/2" sheet of grey tinted lexan. I'm not sure if I need to glue 2 of them together to have enough stability - but I could also make them out of fiberglass and gelcoat them in the color of the boat (would probably not do that myself) but if the single sheet isn't enough I will know soon. I'm also not worried about the necessary force of the actuator to switch sides while in motion - they will do the job just fine. It seems like I'm actually lucky and won't even need to buy 2 new actuators as the ones I have for the side tabs are 4 1/4" stroke.
Old    Joe Sellhausen (joesell)      Join Date: Apr 2001       08-12-2013, 11:45 PM Reply   
I'm really excited to see how it works. I've been planning on doing the same to my 23V all summer. I just haven't found the time or money for the kit. Seems like you have nothing to lose since you have the tabs already.

From what I read, this should be the perfect fix for the surf wake.

Keep us posted!
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-15-2013, 4:55 PM Reply   
In getting excited too - surf gate was mounted today - should be able to pick boat up sometime tomorrow ... Guess it will go right into the lake if I can convince my wife to drop me off and bring trailer home ;-)
Old     (WakeDirt)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-15-2013, 9:38 PM Reply   
So you used your existing lenco actuators on a 9x22 hard plastic tab as the gate?
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-16-2013, 1:31 AM Reply   
We need lots of pics!!!
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-16-2013, 6:32 AM Reply   
will post them as soon as I get the boat back home - just got back into town last night..

@wakedirt - yep - existing actuator and 9x22 Makrolon (same as Lexan but Lexan is a protected name). After my discussion yesterday with the marina it seems like they doubled up where the tabs are attached to the hinges and then countersank the screws on the outside - so nobody gets hurt. I also forgot to bring an L stainless steel profile to the marina where the actuator is mounted to the tab - but they have used aluminum which will work - boat is not in salt water and I can eventually change that later. The biggest issue seems to be the tie downs - they are in the way and they weren't sure if they have to move them or not - I'll see that when I'll pick it up. Haven't gotten a call yet - waiting
Old    Nate (NATE1979)      Join Date: Aug 2013       08-16-2013, 6:34 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff_mn View Post
Only valid if Nick were trying to "sell" them. He can purchase whatever he wants and fabricate it however he wants - just so long as he's not trying to market/sell patented product.
^^ This is not true.
From patent lawyer= "In the U.S., a patent is a right to exclude others from making, using, selling, offering for sale, exporting components to be assembled into an infringing device outside the U.S., importing the product of a patented process practiced outside the U.S., inducing others to infringe, offering a product specially adapted for practice of the patent, and a few other very carefully defined categories."

The only time you are legally allowed to copy a product is for research purposes. Businesses do this when they are considering using a product for a purpose other than the uses described in the patent, or to see if the design of the item/device could be improved or implemented into their own product.
Old    Nate (NATE1979)      Join Date: Aug 2013       08-16-2013, 6:37 AM Reply   
Regardless, Malibu or SAN won't give a rats a$$ if you put some flaps on your boat.

The key to patenting any type of surf wave tab would be to use in its description "to create a surf wake/wave". If you put tabs on your hull, you could claim you were doing so to even out the wakeboard wake, provide counter-steering, etc....
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-16-2013, 6:54 AM Reply   
and Nate - the issue is not that the device is patented as stated way earlier including the link to the filing from Malibu. So if you're not using the name in an aftermarket installation or hinting at 'gate' in some form - any shop is likely to be ok - because otherwise Lenco, Bennett couldn't sell any tabs which are mounted sideways since Malibu came up with the surf gate ...

Not sure how long this will myth will continue to live on wakeworld that Malibu patented the system???
Old    Nate (NATE1979)      Join Date: Aug 2013       08-16-2013, 7:12 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey_butt View Post
and Nate - the issue is not that the device is patented as stated way earlier including the link to the filing from Malibu. So if you're not using the name in an aftermarket installation or hinting at 'gate' in some form - any shop is likely to be ok - because otherwise Lenco, Bennett couldn't sell any tabs which are mounted sideways since Malibu came up with the surf gate ...

Not sure how long this will myth will continue to live on wakeworld that Malibu patented the system???
https://www.google.com/patents/WO201...ed=0CEsQ6AEwAw

I respectfully disagree.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-16-2013, 7:20 AM Reply   
Lot of arm chair quarterbacking going on here...
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       08-16-2013, 7:21 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by NATE1979 View Post
Lol stupid facts!
Old    Nate (NATE1979)      Join Date: Aug 2013       08-16-2013, 7:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake View Post
Lot of arm chair quarterbacking going on here...
So you think an engineering professional who designs products for several different manufacturers offering free industry advice is an "armchair quarterback".

I work freelance with companies, and while under contract, my intellectual property becomes company property.

My name is not on any patents (I never finished the filing process on any of my "provisional" patents), but my ideas have been patented by companies I have done work for.

I'm just looking out for a fellow wakeboarder.
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-16-2013, 7:57 AM Reply   
ok - now that new link to the patent is quite interesting as Malibu now basically claims that ANY vertical mounted tab extending past the stern is basically a copy of their surf wake system.

So first my apologies - I only had the 'old' link to the name. Not sure if the patent filing has been approved - I may not read this right - but I can see where I'm now getting into difficult territorry if that is being approved
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-16-2013, 8:13 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by NATE1979 View Post
The only time you are legally allowed to copy a product is for research purposes. Businesses do this when they are considering using a product for a purpose other than the uses described in the patent, or to see if the design of the item/device could be improved or implemented into their own product.
Well, he's just researching it to see how it affects his personal wave.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       08-16-2013, 9:03 AM Reply   
Let's keep this on track, the OP wants to move his trim tabs to a more vertical axis in an attempt to achieve a better wake. How it works remains to be seen. However, does Malibu's application demonstrate a truly unique and non-obvious use of a trim tab? Maybe, maybe not, but there have been a few wake enhancers attached to the rear of boats over the past 20 years, but few of them caught on. It seems surfing is resurfacing old ideas with new patent applications. Is Nautique's system greatly different from previous applications or even Surf-gate?

Now, if somebody starts making a retrofit kit with vertical tab and a copy of a proprietary control system with a CAN Bus interface, then let the legal wrangling proceed. My armchair comment, "Malibu, if Surf-gate is so good, make a kit and sell thousands of them rather than just a few on your line of boats!"
Old    L W (501s)      Join Date: Feb 2010       08-16-2013, 9:09 AM Reply   
Making your own surfgate seems about as risky as making your own Wakeboard tower. I don't think Nautique tried to sue this guy for patent infringement.
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Old    Nate (NATE1979)      Join Date: Aug 2013       08-16-2013, 9:23 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceberg View Post
"Malibu, if Surf-gate is so good, make a kit and sell thousands of them rather than just a few on your line of boats!"
Don't be mad at Malibu.

Anyone could license their patent, open up shop and pump out as many as they can sell.

Would Malibu license the patent? I would hope they were smart enough to realize there are plenty of people interested in the product who wont be buying a $90K boat.

Time will tell.

.
Old    Nate (NATE1979)      Join Date: Aug 2013       08-16-2013, 9:25 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 501s View Post
Making your own surfgate seems about as risky as making your own Wakeboard tower. I don't think Nautique tried to sue this guy for patent infringement.
LMAO. At least they used pressure treated lumber...
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-16-2013, 2:59 PM Reply   
First pic
Old     (newwhit)      Join Date: Mar 2007       08-16-2013, 3:20 PM Reply   
that looks sick!!! i hope it works just as well.

keep us posted!
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-16-2013, 6:04 PM Reply   
Looks like a nice install!
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       08-16-2013, 7:15 PM Reply   
I was wondering if you were going under the deck. Post Op Report tomorrow?

Did you notice any difference by mounting the FAE straight vs on an angle like your previous install on my boat?
Old    Joe Sellhausen (joesell)      Join Date: Apr 2001       08-16-2013, 11:46 PM Reply   
That looks great! I've been anxiously waiting for your boat to get done. Almost like it was my boat in the shop. Waiting on the water test is worse then waiting for xmas when I was a kid. Hopefully we'll see a perfect wave this weekend.
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       08-17-2013, 6:41 AM Reply   
Why did you not make the flap as tall as the platform like on malibus? Why does it look longer? Let's see water test pics. Did you get it programmable? Has anyone tested it yet?? What'd it cost?
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       08-17-2013, 8:41 AM Reply   
What I am most interested in seeing, is what kind of outward angle those will be capable of achieving. Are they the longer actuators?
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-17-2013, 11:17 AM Reply   
ok - first impression and pic. Nice work by the shop. The tabs are mounted at an angle not exactly following the side of the transom - the reason for it is that they fold pretty much perfectly underneath the platform but also limit the amount of spray/water going over the top - glad they thought of that. These are the same actuators as I had for the previous outside tabs (4 1/4" stroke) and extend to around 22 degrees past the hull. The tie-downs still fit perfectly - that was really sweet.

The video shows the first run w/o any ballast - so they function perfectly - the wake is still better on the right than on the left which I anticipated (the boat tilting to the right when under way is still an issue and has nothing to do with the tabs/gate).
https://vimeo.com/72552284 (it's still converting - may take another 40 minutes ...)

We did a few more tests including filling everything up (so left/right 1500 and front 1000) but that didn't really help much - wake didn't really clean up until I dumped almost all in front and evened it out to avoid the boat tilt by dumping also part of the right)

Eventually I went surfing and the wake has become much longer - losing some push as it obviously isn't as steep as it was before. When I say much longer - before I had to pull myself in after getting up - probably 5 ft or so - now I can be at the end of the rope and stretch my arm entirely out and still surf - so I gained probably 6 - 8 feet of pocket. In addition I can now go straight which was before a no-no - the wake was just to steep so the only thing I could do was ride in the pocket - getting on top of it meant pretty much that you stick your board into the wake ...

Speedwise - seems like we have to go sligthly slower than before - 10.5 instead of 10.8 but that may change - dialing in will take a while as the ballast setup needs to be adjusted. I eventually went out with the left side full - another 500 lbs fat sac as I had done before - front empty (which I filled up before). That worked out fairly nice but it also showed that the surf gate is pretty much under water - so it's possibly not redirecting the water enough. I will shoot some video with my gopro later today so it's better visible what I'm trying to describe here.

My buddies went then on to surf on the right (goofy) side and for them it was just plain awesome - one of them couldn't let go of the rope last year and hasn't surfed/wakeboarded all season due to an injury and yesterday was his first time - inclucing letting rope go - riding in the pocket back and forth. I will ride today on the goofy side a bit to also show the difference in wake.

So first conclusion: Does what it's supposed to do - improved a lot over the prior tabs. For me to get happy I need the boat to get balanced/level when under way - then I'll enjoy it a lot more. For those who know me - I'm pretty critical and honest - so to say right now that this is exactly what I hoped for is not true. I'll have to play around with setup etc. but I can say that I already gained enough from the Epic gate to make it worth wile. Will likely get some more Lexan and cut the sheet differently (more trapez shaped than rectangular and maybe a little bit longer - currently it's 20") but I can do this all myself. Instead of Lexan - starboard will do the same thing - I just preferred the tinted look.

Cost: Theoretically you could get by with the actuators (175/ea), the lexan sheets (about $130), the wiring and switches (probably another $50), hinges ($50) and your labor. My cost will be about 2K b/c that included all the gel coat work after removing the tabs, actuator holes etc. which was itself almost 2 days in the shop. So a bit of an expensive birthday gift but cheaper than a new boat - wifey said not before next year

Will post another update later this weekend - gotta go surfing now
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Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-17-2013, 11:23 AM Reply   
@Frank - sorry forgot to answer that one about the FAE: The reason for the angle on your boat is due to the fact that the bottom tip of the FAE should be about 1.5 to 2" above the center of the prop. When I installed it initially the FAE was pretty much straight like on the new one but I adjusted after talking to Larry. On my new one - the entire FAE is custom made - so I had to take all the measurements before he could make me one - so that may explain why mine goes pretty much straight out - the difference between prop center and bottom tip was almost where it was supposed to be.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       08-17-2013, 11:50 AM Reply   
Very nice installation. The video just came up. For no ballast and just the trim(v) tabs that is pretty good. Pretty soon you will be hopping from side to side. I would bet you could go 600-1000 in each rear tank with 500 in the front and it would be very good. Your comment about the depth of the tab with ballast may put it a bit too low, but the question is, how much ballast do you think you will need? As I said before, the Epic throws a wicked wave with 2200ish (additional 600 fat sac and a body or 2) on the surf side with about 400 up front.
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       08-17-2013, 2:40 PM Reply   
Sorry man, really not impressed with that setup. It looks busch league... If you and your installer had benchmarked a bit more, studied, paid attention, taken notes, measurements, facts and figures prior to drilling new holes, you would have wound up with a more professional looking and performing install...

Right now it doesn't even look like the system will rotate properly relating to the hull shape, not to mention it looks like it sticks out way further than Malibu SG.

Last edited by wakebordr11; 08-17-2013 at 2:48 PM.
Old    Bryce (brycejb328)      Join Date: Aug 2009       08-17-2013, 3:25 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakebordr11 View Post
Sorry man, really not impressed with that setup. It looks busch league... If you and your installer had benchmarked a bit more, studied, paid attention, taken notes, measurements, facts and figures prior to drilling new holes, you would have wound up with a more professional looking and performing install...

Right now it doesn't even look like the system will rotate properly relating to the hull shape, not to mention it looks like it sticks out way further than Malibu SG.
whoa.... good thing Mr. Negativity showed up
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-17-2013, 5:49 PM Reply   
Frank - was doing something along that line this afternoon - no additional fat sac and both rear tanks full and front with maybe 500. It was the long pocket I was hoping for with enough push this time. What I forgot to try is to not extend the gate entirely - so instead of going to 22 degrees just staying within the 8 - 15 as Malibu is patenting. Part of the problem is also that I need a driver who fully understands the system as long as everything is basically done via the switches - my wife is still not entirely comfortable with the boat overall and all the switches, tabs etc. are better in place before I go out. I'll do more trial next Friday when I'm back home ...

Tried to record with the gopro this afternoon again and have some lengthy videos of kids/wife surfing but the one I tried to take from behind the boat while surfing so I can show the tabs in action is missing - guess I need a lesson in gopro

@deltaforce: There are actually quite a lot of thoughts which went into it. I have to say that my (and not the installers) biggest mistake was to order the lexan precut. We talked about that when I picked it up - I could have easily gotten a sheet and get him to cut it in a different shape but after working with lexan myself for the wind dam - I didn't want to cut a 1/2" sheet myself. The installation is actually very clean otherwise - the only reason that we doubled up on the mounting points for the actuator and the hinges was to avoid too much stress on a single sheet of lexan (can't get the tinted one thicker than 1/2" and thought too late about laminating 2 together which would provide the best stability). Nothing is lost at this point - we can easily change the shape of the gate (length/height wise) and I didn't expect to have it right the first time - partially also that it seems like being the only one here with an Epic making this attempt but I'm looking forward to your install over the winter and the results in spring

Last edited by monkey_butt; 08-17-2013 at 5:52 PM. Reason: spelling
Old     (WakeDirt)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-17-2013, 6:20 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey_butt View Post
Frank - was doing something along that line this afternoon - no additional fat sac and both rear tanks full and front with maybe 500. It was the long pocket I was hoping for with enough push this time. What I forgot to try is to not extend the gate entirely - so instead of going to 22 degrees just staying within the 8 - 15 as Malibu is patenting. Part of the problem is also that I need a driver who fully understands the system as long as everything is basically done via the switches - my wife is still not entirely comfortable with the boat overall and all the switches, tabs etc. are better in place before I go out. I'll do more trial next Friday when I'm back home ...

Tried to record with the gopro this afternoon again and have some lengthy videos of kids/wife surfing but the one I tried to take from behind the boat while surfing so I can show the tabs in action is missing - guess I need a lesson in gopro

@deltaforce: There are actually quite a lot of thoughts which went into it. I have to say that my (and not the installers) biggest mistake was to order the lexan precut. We talked about that when I picked it up - I could have easily gotten a sheet and get him to cut it in a different shape but after working with lexan myself for the wind dam - I didn't want to cut a 1/2" sheet myself. The installation is actually very clean otherwise - the only reason that we doubled up on the mounting points for the actuator and the hinges was to avoid too much stress on a single sheet of lexan (can't get the tinted one thicker than 1/2" and thought too late about laminating 2 together which would provide the best stability). Nothing is lost at this point - we can easily change the shape of the gate (length/height wise) and I didn't expect to have it right the first time - partially also that it seems like being the only one here with an Epic making this attempt but I'm looking forward to your install over the winter and the results in spring
Could you snap a pic of the switches, is it the lenco auto retract control? Or are they fully manual all the time? I like your setup and think that the slight "outward" angle to avoid spray is a good idea, and I be what you lost in surface area in height you gained in length, probably having similar tab effect with less spray. Your appears to spray less than the original SG. I dig it.
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       08-17-2013, 7:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey_butt View Post
Frank - was doing something along that line this afternoon - no additional fat sac and both rear tanks full and front with maybe 500. It was the long pocket I was hoping for with enough push this time. What I forgot to try is to not extend the gate entirely - so instead of going to 22 degrees just staying within the 8 - 15 as Malibu is patenting. Part of the problem is also that I need a driver who fully understands the system as long as everything is basically done via the switches - my wife is still not entirely comfortable with the boat overall and all the switches, tabs etc. are better in place before I go out. I'll do more trial next Friday when I'm back home ...

Tried to record with the gopro this afternoon again and have some lengthy videos of kids/wife surfing but the one I tried to take from behind the boat while surfing so I can show the tabs in action is missing - guess I need a lesson in gopro

@deltaforce: There are actually quite a lot of thoughts which went into it. I have to say that my (and not the installers) biggest mistake was to order the lexan precut. We talked about that when I picked it up - I could have easily gotten a sheet and get him to cut it in a different shape but yafter working with lexan myself for the wind dam - I didn't want to cut a 1/2" sheet myself. The installation is actually very clean otherwise - the only reason that we doubled up on the mounting points for the actuator and the hinges was to avoid too much stress on a single sheet of lexan (can't get the tinted one thicker than 1/2" and thought too late about laminating 2 together which would provide the best stability). Nothing is lost at this point - we can easily change the shape of the gate (length/height wise) and I didn't expect to have it right the first time - partially also that it seems like being the only one here with an Epic making this attempt but I'm looking forward to your install over the winter and the results in spring
I won't be installing this on any boat. I was messing with you when you were frantically looking for an installer. There are a number of things I would have done different but hey its America, different strokes for different folks. This looks like I expected, trim tabs mounted to attempt.to mimic surfgate. I am sure you will wind up with a better system at some point after some trial and error. Cheers.

Bryce, you mad bro?
Old    Bryce (brycejb328)      Join Date: Aug 2009       08-17-2013, 8:21 PM Reply   
Nope, thanks for asking.

Personally, I am pretty impressed. Props for going for it.. looks like with a little tweaking it will work quite nicely.

I am glad this looks you tried to "mimic surfgate"... I feel like that was the whole idea. I know a guy who does laser engraving in Lexan, have "epic gate" engraved into the tabs. Then I am sure it will be more legit.

Let me know if you need a fellow fellow TC dweller to come help you test it out.
Old    Scott (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       08-17-2013, 9:44 PM Reply   
Thanks for working on. It is really helpful to see how these kind of thing come out.
Old     (WakeDirt)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-17-2013, 9:54 PM Reply   
Have you seen where the lenco's wire comes through? Is it in the locker? Seems like that is where Epic has ballast in the hull??
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       08-18-2013, 10:24 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by WakeDirt View Post
Have you seen where the lenco's wire comes through? Is it in the locker? Seems like that is where Epic has ballast in the hull??
probably in the space between the transom and the tank (there's got to be a gap for the gate valve assembly... the tank can't run to the transom)
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-18-2013, 10:27 AM Reply   
@Bryce - thanks for the offer - I know you're on the other side of town - I'm surely up for an entire weekend of surfing but it would be at the lake I live at

@Wakedirt - I'll post a few more pictures of the installation inside the boat - so you see where the wiring etc. goes thru and the switches and gauges in the cockpit. I forgot those as well as the fact that yes they do auto-retract if I shut the ignition off - was kinda worried about that if they would be in the way of the tie downs - glad they're not.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       08-18-2013, 1:18 PM Reply   
Holy smokes you've been busy!

I've been off the grid a bit due to a broken ankle and trying to move, but if you need a driver one of these days, I would love to see these in person!
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       08-18-2013, 1:21 PM Reply   
Do you have any videos of your surf tabs working before you altered the setup? Unweighted surf wake with/without surf tabs, with and without your epic gait?

What are your plans to alter the system? Do you have pictures of water flowing around the transom and platform in the current setup? I would be interested in seeing those pictures and video.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-18-2013, 5:57 PM Reply   
Thanks for posting the updates and being honest! Looks like it's working the way it's supposed to. Good luck on the R&D
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-18-2013, 6:22 PM Reply   
ok - here are the pictures from the cockpit I promised earlier. Didn't get a chance to go out today - got a few other things to take care of and it was just plain too windy - so here they are.

The picture of the gauge at 50% shows the tab extended pretty much straight following the side of the hull - it's fully extended at around 75%. I noticed that the gate really sticks out pretty far once I compared but have to do more testing next weekend.
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Old     (WakeDirt)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-18-2013, 7:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
probably in the space between the transom and the tank (there's got to be a gap for the gate valve assembly... the tank can't run to the transom)
I see I see

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