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Old    Mahogany Lover (RonBurgundy)      Join Date: Jun 2012       04-24-2013, 3:25 PM Reply   
This past weekend had the pleasure of working with Larry over at Fresh Air Exhaust and getting a setup for my boat. Below are some pictures of the exhaust ports, the setup dry fit, and a couple photos of the unit finished on the boat. Install was a piece of cake, and even with taking photos took me all of 40 minutes. This was on a wake series Sanger V-215

Mounting to the wake plate lets me retain the ability to remove the swim step often; but if you do not do this they also have the option of a quick disconnect on the swim step to keep the unit rigid.

Never done a full blown review before but wanted to give my opinion as I agonized for months over whether or not it was worth it and finally pulled the trigger (so I assume it may be the same for others):

Fit/Finish: The unit is flawless, powder-coating is incredibly glossy, and the thing is damn tight on the boat….doesn’t go anywhere once completely installed.

Color options: Currently (from the conversations I had) they are looking at moving away from a powder-coated option and going to a brushed option as their “base” unit. Went with the black because of the boat colors, but the brushed would have looked killer matching my tower as well. I know the tower has got to be the easiest thing ever to clean on my boat so I would only assume the brushed option to be the same.

Mounting Options: As I indicated above I went with a wake plate mount to keep the install compact. Between this and the swim step option they basically have every ski boat out there covered. They also have angled exhaust port mounts allowing for different items in the rear (wakeplate, wedge, etc.)

CO2 level: I have not yet died from CO2 poisoning since install so they get points here.

Sound: Here is the real reason I wanted this puppy……until you ride in a boat with one it is difficult to explain how much noise it gets rid of. The video I took turned out terribly so I will be doing better ones this weekend that ill toss up in this thread. In the no wake zone it feels like I’m silently floating across the lake, and under load with weight at 30mph I can easily talk to all of the others in the boat. ON THE WATER NOISE WAS THE BEST IMPROVEMENT!!!! While riding I get a much crisper sound from my tower speakers and can hear the music much easier….I never realized how loud my boat was!

All in all, this thing is great and I wish I installed it earlier. Big props to Larry and team over at FAE as well because they were on the phone with me anytime I called to answer a question about the install, and followed up quickly when I placed my order (shipped same day at my request). I look forward to many more lake trips with my newfound silence (except for the loud music of course).
Attached Images
    
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       04-24-2013, 4:17 PM Reply   
Mine was black as well. After 5 years it's peeled quite a bit. I also found the pipe clamps have to be tightened every once in a while as well as with the force under water there is some movement. It otherwise def does make a huge difference and am still glad I have it. I will admit I do miss the engine noise a bit as it's one thing about tourney boats that I always loved.
Old    Mahogany Lover (RonBurgundy)      Join Date: Jun 2012       04-24-2013, 9:08 PM Reply   
He did say they had issues with the old coating process and have yet to have one of the newer two stage coatings peel.

Good to hear its still holding up!
Old    Tom N (SangerTom)      Join Date: Aug 2010       04-24-2013, 9:34 PM Reply   
I installed mine, a chrome one, last year. I couldn't believe the difference in the noise. We road in a friends Malibu during a a trip and it was like being in an old VW vs a Lexus...okay I exaggerate a bit...

Since I haven't died either of C02 - it seems to be working well on that front. My only complaint, why didn't I install it sooner
Old    Brian (TitanSanger215)      Join Date: Oct 2012       04-24-2013, 9:42 PM Reply   
I love my FAE.
Attached Images
 
Old    DC (durty_curt)      Join Date: Apr 2008       04-24-2013, 10:18 PM Reply   
I definitely Agree Brian!

Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       04-24-2013, 11:23 PM Reply   
Oh man I totally agree with most of everything said. It's the cheapest stereo upgrade you can buy by far. My only complaint was that I had to cut and fabricate the erector set bracket to hold the thing. That was the only reason why I didn't buy one sooner. I didn't like the aesthetics of how a single exhaust had to be supported. I understand why they have to sell it that way though.- No boats have their exhaust ports in exactly in the same place so there's no one-size-fits-all for single port exhausts. Dual port exhausts don't have this issue as much. I had a welder make a custom fabricated bracket which I had powder coated to match my hull. Turned out awesome. FWIW, Larry was a class act to deal with and best of all: the guy answers the phone or gets back to you in record speed. Hard to beat that in this day and age.
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       04-24-2013, 11:53 PM Reply   
If, by some random chance, you have read this thread and still not decided that you should have this option please call and order yours today so you won't hate yourself later.

This is a public service announcement provided to you by long time owners of the FAE.
Once you have installed it you may feel free to contact the boat manufacturer directly and ask why it is not a factory option.
Old    Jack Henry (racer808)      Join Date: Jan 2013       04-25-2013, 5:00 AM Reply   
Did any of the boats shown here have flapper? I dont see how that would work on my vlx since my exhaust is flush with flappers? I have not yet been behind my boat but its pretty quiet as is? Very curious about face though
Old    B Beasley (ProvoMB52)      Join Date: Nov 2011       04-25-2013, 6:05 AM Reply   
Good reviews everyone. The only thing I would adjust is that it's not CO2 that is the problem. You're worried about CO. Carbon Dioxide vs. Carbon Monoxide (which is the deadly exhaust gas we're trying to mitigate). Other than that, great info!
Old    Jon Hunter (hunter660)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-25-2013, 7:22 AM Reply   
I loved the FAE on my old boat. I'm still waiting for the bugs to get worked out before I put on on my 23TWB though.
Old    Mahogany Lover (RonBurgundy)      Join Date: Jun 2012       04-25-2013, 7:32 AM Reply   
forgot to mention.....I did have flappers. With it being a new boat Larry recommended their flapper setup to retain warranty on the motor. The flappers come pre-installed and sit inside of the exhaust ports in the initial photo.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       04-25-2013, 8:12 AM Reply   
Those with the FAE sweeping up out of the exhaust ports, do you remove to winterize? Seems like your exhaust would be full of water at the low point. The straight out the back I don't think would be any different as it would mostly drain if cranking the bow high.
Old    DC (durty_curt)      Join Date: Apr 2008       04-25-2013, 1:58 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadunkle View Post
Those with the FAE sweeping up out of the exhaust ports, do you remove to winterize? Seems like your exhaust would be full of water at the low point. The straight out the back I don't think would be any different as it would mostly drain if cranking the bow high.
my sweepIng Up Exhaust Came With A hole Drilled In Each Mount Nearly Next To The ExhaustS Baffle Point. So Any Remaining Water drains From Each Straw Sized whole
Old    DC (durty_curt)      Join Date: Apr 2008       04-25-2013, 2:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by racer808 View Post
Did any of the boats shown here have flapper? I dont see how that would work on my vlx since my exhaust is flush with flappers? I have not yet been behind my boat but its pretty quiet as is? Very curious about face though
My VLX Did Have The Flappers. During The Install You Simply Unscrew The Flaps And Throw them Away
Old    Chris Dirty (Dmac420sj)      Join Date: Mar 2012       04-25-2013, 3:46 PM Reply   
Do mind saying how much they cost?
Old    Mahogany Lover (RonBurgundy)      Join Date: Jun 2012       04-25-2013, 3:52 PM Reply   
the flappers? $50. for the entire system they have prices on the site. I think its a couple more bucks if you use the swim step quick disconnect unit they make.
Old    DC (durty_curt)      Join Date: Apr 2008       04-25-2013, 5:24 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonBurgundy View Post
the flappers? $50. for the entire system they have prices on the site. I think its a couple more bucks if you use the swim step quick disconnect unit they make.
What He Said
Old    Chris Dirty (Dmac420sj)      Join Date: Mar 2012       04-25-2013, 9:21 PM Reply   
$480 for sanger v210. It doesn't affect the wake at all?seems like it eould
Old    Mahogany Lover (RonBurgundy)      Join Date: Jun 2012       04-25-2013, 10:20 PM Reply   
I know some have said there is a weird spray that pops up off the transom. My swim deck "swoops" under the transom so possibly this is why I do not get the spray on the sanger. I saw absolutely no difference with it but I will get the videos this weekend to verify I'm not nuts.
Old    Mahogany Lover (RonBurgundy)      Join Date: Jun 2012       04-25-2013, 10:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProvoMB52 View Post
Good reviews everyone. The only thing I would adjust is that it's not CO2 that is the problem. You're worried about CO. Carbon Dioxide vs. Carbon Monoxide (which is the deadly exhaust gas we're trying to mitigate). Other than that, great info!
Hahaha. That actually makes a lot more sense. I have not yet passed out or died from CO either....still a thumbs up in that metric!
Old    Derek (camassanger)      Join Date: Oct 2009       08-15-2013, 9:04 PM Reply   
Art, Your post is right on the money! I couldn't have said it better.
Old    Jack Henry (racer808)      Join Date: Jan 2013       08-16-2013, 7:02 AM Reply   
Why wouldn't a poor mans FAE work simply by installing elbows on the exhaust so it is like turn downs that go under the water?
Old    John James (johnboyy7)      Join Date: Apr 2011       08-16-2013, 7:18 AM Reply   
FAE is fantastic adn larry is excellent to work with.
Old    Derek (camassanger)      Join Date: Oct 2009       08-16-2013, 10:14 AM Reply   
Jack, it might. But be careful of handling. One pipe sticking into the water is better IMO. The idea is to have the exhaust exit UNDER water, so the elbows would have to extend into the water... you may be able to build it yourself. But bolting up a premade, proven design feels better to me. Again, in my opinion
Old    Jack Henry (racer808)      Join Date: Jan 2013       08-16-2013, 2:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by camassanger View Post
Jack, it might. But be careful of handling. One pipe sticking into the water is better IMO. The idea is to have the exhaust exit UNDER water, so the elbows would have to extend into the water... you may be able to build it yourself. But bolting up a premade, proven design feels better to me. Again, in my opinion
No I agree. I was mostly curious if it would cause back pressure, but I guess the FAE would do that if it was a concern. I was going to pull the trigger on FAE but other bills came up so I have to wait. I was thinking of trying the elbows for the next few weeks while we have water. Was more curious as to any concerns of motor damage, which I don't see???
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-16-2013, 4:49 PM Reply   
I installed, then removed, my FAE. I really really liked it for all the above reasons. And I really loved how quiet it was to ride behind the boat. Plus having 2 young ones who ski-board and play on the swimstep is a big concern.

The install was great, the product works awesome, but I removed it because it affected my wake and weighting abilities too much for wakeboarding.

I do not surf, so you surfers can disregard as I think this thing is money for you guys.

I put on the FAE and could not get on plane with my normal ballast setup. Had to drain the rears a bit first. Once up I noticed the wake shape had changed, steepened a bit. It was as if I dropped a wedge down, which I do not have on my boat. I could deal with the loss of planing ability but I love my wake so much and do not want to change it so drastically.

I think the power loss comes from having something (the down tube) dragging in the water behind the boat. It is probably similar to someone who is cutting and pulling really hard as you are trying to plane when your boat is at its max, yeah, that guy.... I do not think it "chokes" the engine by too much back pressure from going from 2 to 1, but it may. I just think the dragging of the exhaust behind the boat slows the boat by pulling the rear of the boat down. I also think this dragging exhaust pipe causes the back of the boat to be pulled down a bit at wakeboarding speed, steepening the wake.

Its a great product, Larry and his staff are awesome to work with, and it definitely works really well. Just not for me.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-17-2013, 12:09 AM Reply   
^^^ Johnny, your's has to be one of the biggest head scratching posts for me ever. First, your kids aren't safe playing on the swim platform while the boat is running with or without FAE. Second, I can't believe that FAE had any effect on your ability to plane. That's like saying "I couldn't plane because someone was dragging their hand in the water". Third, there is no way that FAE "pulls the boat down". Dude, really?
Old    Derek (camassanger)      Join Date: Oct 2009       08-17-2013, 9:38 AM Reply   
Jack, No concerns about motor damage. FAE doesnt change anything in that regard.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-17-2013, 11:41 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
^^^ Johnny, your's has to be one of the biggest head scratching posts for me ever. First, your kids aren't safe playing on the swim platform while the boat is running with or without FAE. Second, I can't believe that FAE had any effect on your ability to plane. That's like saying "I couldn't plane because someone was dragging their hand in the water". Third, there is no way that FAE "pulls the boat down". Dude, really?
My son likes to drag his boat off the swim step while we are idling around so his toy boat can make a wake. With FAE I let him do this because the exaust would go out the prop wash and not up around the swim step.

Second. Don't believe it, you are probably correct, I probably have no idea what I am talking about and you probably know everything. I probably have no clue how to weight a boat and have probably not spent hours dialing it in with multiple different set ups and props and probably do not know exactly how many people I can have in my boat and where they can sit in order to get my boat up on plane... probably. And probably believe if you had a strong friend, weighing 200lbs on your swim step, you will not need him to drag his hand in the water as his weight shift to the rear would not allow you to plane (assuming you are maxed out in your current configuration).. however, if you were to drain 250 lbs from the rear lockers, then have said friend go back onto the swim step and was strong enough to put his arm straight down so that his hand is 2 1/2 feet below the water level and the swimstep is at his armpit, and said friend could hold his arm that way as you tried to get up to 24 mph, then you would see that you would not be able to plane (assuming you are maxed out in your current configuration, notice I dropped an extra 50 lbs of ballast in this scenario due to where the 200 lbs dude was being added and where the water ballast was being removed from in relation to each other and the hull?).

"Third, there is no way that FAE "pulls the boat down". Dude, really?" Yeah, you are probably correct about this. You should definately take this brilliant piece of information and go call Malibu and tell them to halt all production of Malibu's and Axis' that were ordered with the wedge immediately!!! Customers are going to be pissed when they find out that they spent an extra $1100-3000 for an option that does not pull the back of the boat down at all. After all, now that you have enlightened us that something dragging in the water to the rear of a boat does nothing, it is definitely irresponsible for Malibu to be advertising such a fallacy. Also, when I am running real heavy, I will remember to tell my rider to go ahead and slaysh back and forth and cut all about as I am trying to get the boat on plane as I am sure that you forgot to tell me that my statement that by doing this, you can delay planing time or completely inhibit it is absolutely head scratching to you.

Sorry for being a dick in my response, I just wanted to give it the way you gave it.
Old    Jordan Maxymek (Jmaxymek)      Join Date: Feb 2012       08-17-2013, 7:14 PM Reply   
Not sure what a wedge has in common with FAE beyond sitting behind the boat? I don't doubt a performance loss but am confused as to why you think this is happening. Nautique is adding FAE systems on their G23 and G25s for the 2014 product year so that has to be a testament to something...
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-17-2013, 9:44 PM Reply   
They are definately not the same thing, but they make the boat react similarly. The wedge uses downforce created from the angle of the horizontal blade to pull the rear of the boat down. Something dragging behind the boat (a persons arm, FAE down pipe, or the drag from a rider pulling against the boat) causes the back end to sit down in the water (or the front to pull up with an opposite reaction of the rear pushing down). This "rear heavy" set up will, in general and for sure in my axis or my buddies vlx, cause the wake to steepen, soften at the lip (most likely due to a thinner steeper lip), and slightly widen.

I do not know why the FAE downpipe does this, nor do I care. This is my experience with the system, and if not for the wake shape change, I would still have it on my boat to this day. I really thought the downpipe dragging a little bit might cause the bow to be pulled down a bit, if anything, but maybe due to being so close to the prop and all that wash that hits it causes it to drag the rear down a bit. According to Larry at FAE, the design of the downpipe actually aides, not restricting at all, exhaust gases to be expelled, so the loss of planing ability cannot be from a choked down motor, it must be from a 4" pipe dragging in the water behind it....

If my boat came stock with the FAE, then I would only know the wake with an FAE system on it, I would never know that my wake could be so different (and better and bigger) without it. We are talking about a 100-200 lbs difference in planing ability once your ballast and prop configuration is maxed out, so most people never get very close to that point and would not notice a difference once adding the FAE. You are so impressed with how quiet the boat motor is and how much clearer and louder your stereo is, and how quiet it is when riding behind the boat. It is a cool experience. Just didn't work out for me. I have a brand new system with 10 hours on it sitting in my attic....
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-18-2013, 12:33 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_defacto View Post
My son likes to drag his boat off the swim step while we are idling around so his toy boat can make a wake. With FAE I let him do this because the exaust would go out the prop wash and not up around the swim step.

Second. Don't believe it, you are probably correct, I probably have no idea what I am talking about and you probably know everything. I probably have no clue how to weight a boat and have probably not spent hours dialing it in with multiple different set ups and props and probably do not know exactly how many people I can have in my boat and where they can sit in order to get my boat up on plane... probably. And probably believe if you had a strong friend, weighing 200lbs on your swim step, you will not need him to drag his hand in the water as his weight shift to the rear would not allow you to plane (assuming you are maxed out in your current configuration).. however, if you were to drain 250 lbs from the rear lockers, then have said friend go back onto the swim step and was strong enough to put his arm straight down so that his hand is 2 1/2 feet below the water level and the swimstep is at his armpit, and said friend could hold his arm that way as you tried to get up to 24 mph, then you would see that you would not be able to plane (assuming you are maxed out in your current configuration, notice I dropped an extra 50 lbs of ballast in this scenario due to where the 200 lbs dude was being added and where the water ballast was being removed from in relation to each other and the hull?).

"Third, there is no way that FAE "pulls the boat down". Dude, really?" Yeah, you are probably correct about this. You should definately take this brilliant piece of information and go call Malibu and tell them to halt all production of Malibu's and Axis' that were ordered with the wedge immediately!!! Customers are going to be pissed when they find out that they spent an extra $1100-3000 for an option that does not pull the back of the boat down at all. After all, now that you have enlightened us that something dragging in the water to the rear of a boat does nothing, it is definitely irresponsible for Malibu to be advertising such a fallacy. Also, when I am running real heavy, I will remember to tell my rider to go ahead and slaysh back and forth and cut all about as I am trying to get the boat on plane as I am sure that you forgot to tell me that my statement that by doing this, you can delay planing time or completely inhibit it is absolutely head scratching to you.

Sorry for being a dick in my response, I just wanted to give it the way you gave it.
So you let your son drag his toy boat off the swim step while underway??? Not only is it grossly illegal, you are an f'ing moron if you EVER thought that FAE was meant to protect against a slow speed "idling as you say" cruise for anyone sitting on or near the swim step. You ought to be pummeled for subjecting your child to that potential risk. Just so he could float his toy boat? This is a total Darwin moment... Poor child.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-18-2013, 1:08 AM Reply   
Your "parallel" between the wedge and FAE is straight up wrong. You have to know that the wedge is a hydrofoil or wing intended to drag the stern down and the FAE is just a relatively small protrusion into the water with no down force (equal to a fat hand or aerodynamic fist) which is almost eclipsed by the rudder right? Why would you even mention the two in the same sentance? Using your " logic" the rudder would make the stern drag down too right? In other words, ther is no logic to your claim. It's simple physics bro.
Look John, I didn't comment on this subject to make a war with you. In fact I don't recall any posts you've ever made on this site that I've ever disagreed with except this one. I just think that you are wrong. I think that you're attributing your lack of performance to the wrong thing. I researched the chit out of FAE before I bought mine and NEVER once did I read or hear ANY of your complaints from anyone regarding FAE on multiple sites. I especially never experienced them for myself once I bought it for my boat. I truly hope you aren't taking this as a personal attack. It isn't. I just think you're aiming in the wrong direction. Btw, I'm gonna take your sarcasm in the previous post and roll with it. I don't think it's productive or worth either our time to act like a-holes to make a point. I'm honestly interested to hear your SOLID evidence to the contrary of what I've said. Nothing wrong with a debate. As a side question, have you ever considered putting it back on to test your theory?
Old    Scott (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       08-18-2013, 6:02 AM Reply   
I would argue that the rudder probably does create a bit of theoretical drag, so does FAE. It is a matter of degree. Face it, if you take the fins off wake boards or surfboards you will obviously notice more maneuverability, and we have noticed a bit more speed on surf boards with the fins.

In this case or any case, if it can be noticed or not is up for debate, and neither one of you has produced any "solid" evidence.

I think FAE, from all I have read about it over the years is probably great, and if i wanted to drop another few hundred on my boat I would get one as I think the lower exhaust noise is probably worth it.

Last edited by scottb7; 08-18-2013 at 6:05 AM.
Old    Jack Henry (racer808)      Join Date: Jan 2013       08-18-2013, 8:16 AM Reply   
A anyone try a homemade fae?

Last edited by racer808; 08-18-2013 at 8:18 AM.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-18-2013, 9:01 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottb7 View Post
I would argue that the rudder probably does create a bit of theoretical drag, so does FAE. It is a matter of degree. Face it, if you take the fins off wake boards or surfboards you will obviously notice more maneuverability, and we have noticed a bit more speed on surf boards with the fins.

In this case or any case, if it can be noticed or not is up for debate, and neither one of you has produced any "solid" evidence.

I think FAE, from all I have read about it over the years is probably great, and if i wanted to drop another few hundred on my boat I would get one as I think the lower exhaust noise is probably worth it.
Drag? Yes. Down force? No way. I never said there was no drag. I even said its like dragging a hand or fist in the water. I just don't believe there's enough drag to have an impact on planing. I lost 1 mph off of my top end.
Old    Scott (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       08-18-2013, 10:19 AM Reply   
Like many things in life, it is a matter of perspective. One mph off of 40 is 2.5%. Some would argue that is a lot, maybe they haven't got a raise in years and would love and notice 2.5%. Some would argue 2.5% is nothing, not noticeable. But I appreciate thoughts on both sides.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-18-2013, 10:46 AM Reply   
^^^ Good point. I talked with Larry at FAE about it this morning. He said he'd like to do a study soon to see what if any impact FAE makes on up or downforce. It sounded like he wasn't sure either way. I'll shut up stand by for his findings.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-18-2013, 10:46 AM Reply   
mark, I am glad your letting my sarcasm roll because I was not trying to be a dick for real, just internet/forum fun. And I don't take your problems with my assessment as a personal attack... but calling me a an f-ing moron for something you have very little knowledge of. You have not seen how my son does this so you really cannot make an accurate decision on how safe or unsafe it is because you only have the info I gave you. Do not do that again.

Not that it matters, but idling at 4-5 mph while my son is off to the very side of the swim step with the FAE dumping all exhaust directly into the prop wash (btw, this is about half the speed people surf at, including children, but are 5-10 feet back behind the boat). my son is safe, is ahead of the prop wash and we are moving, as well as he is on the very side of the swim step. Also, private lake with no one on it, coast guard approved vest and I can see him at all times.... so there is more of the information, go ahead and make a judgment now that you have a lot more of the facts, knowing, of course, that you still have not witnessed or experienced this for yourself.

Yes the wedge and FAE parrallel is not a good one, but what else do I have to go off of? Wedge, FAE, and a rider pulling hard against the boat are the only 3 scenarios that I can think of that produce SIMILAR results. Oh and centurions "blade" thing but I do not know anything about it.

My buddy had a 07 VLX (almost same exact hull from midway back as the A22) with approx 3600 lbs or so... no wedge. The wedge pin was broken and would sometimes drop down while we were riding. You could see the affect of the wedge on the wake immediately and it was terrible. It softened, steepened and felt wider (maybe from the soft steep lip made it feel steeper without actually being steeper). His ballast config was not set up with the wedge incorporated into it so the affect of the wedge on the wake was undesirable. If he would have set up his ballast while incorporating the wedge, then it would have been a different story.

In the same way, my wake is dialed, and by adding or taking away ANYTHING, the wake changes. Even moving 200 lbs of lead to the rear 10 feet makes a huge difference. Even removing 800 lbs of people weight and instead putting that 800lbs on the floor of the boat makes a difference. Noticeably. I am no engineer and do not understand why, I can only theorize. So adding the FAE to my boat with the same ballast configuration, on the same lake, using the same wakeboard, same handle and rope and length, same pp speed, same prop, within the same week is a sound way to test something. And my results were undesirable.

Yes, I have thought of putting it back on... mainly on family trips where I do not plan to really ride, so that the boat will be quieter and pulling the little kids on ski trainers and teaching them to ride while on the swimstep will be safer for all of us. Since my initial test I have made a little change to my ballast by adding some lead and moving some around, plus I put on the ACME 2315 prop. I still ride at same speed and length, so I do plan on adding the FAE again to test it because I did love how quiet it was inside the boat.

I agree with Scott, the rudder does produce drag but you cannot test a rudderless wakeboat (that I am aware of) to see if it changes the wake. The rudder is what, 3/4" wide? The FAE is 4" diameter or so? Huge difference but still, both create drag.... just like your example of the hand in the water.

I do not have any FACTS to put in front of you except for observational results. I could take a picture of the wake with me next to it, then add the FAE and take another picture, but I won't. I observed a difference in the wake shape and the feel of it when I rode it. It is subjective evidence based on my observation. You did not notice any difference in wake shape or boat performance with yours? Great. I am glad your researched it a lot and am happy with it. I did a little bit of research and found nobody with my same complaint, that doesn't make my observations invalid just because I do not have any facts for you. I only have one fact, based on the assumption that you are correct, that you lost 1 mph in top end speed. That is drag. You lost performance, either from a motor too choked out at high RPMS (WOT) or due to the drag from your down pipe. Either way you lost performance, Fact.

So why is it hard to believe me that I lost performance? I didn't try a top speed run with it, but it affected the performance of my boat to produce a desirable wake. It affected the ability of my boat to get up on plane. Whether or not it can drag the rear of the boat down, it does create drag, enough for me to not be able to plane. You are telling me that it is FACT that the FAE downpipe creates drag.... we both agree on this. Yet you are trying to convince me that this drag has a no affect on the pitch of the boat? It is dragging but it has no affect? that is impossible. Or are you saying that it has a neutral affect on the boat? As if it is dragging but affects the boat equally all along the hull from bow to stern, creating absolutely no change in pitch? That would be impressive. Larry should advertise this... I would think that it is a scientific (or physical... ie physics) anomaly.

Sack your boat out till you cannot plane. Then remove approx 100 lbs of rear ballast. Try again. Keep removing rear ballast like this until it takes you 30-45 seconds to plane. Then go back to the same exact starting point, remove your FAE and sack your boat out again, identically to before. Try to plane. Remove 100 lbs out of the rears until you can plane. I bet you will plane with more weight without your FAE. I did.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-18-2013, 11:28 PM Reply   
Okay, you gave incomplete information about your son. The moron comment was because you said you "idle" with him on the swim platform which IS unsafe even if he's off to the side. 4-5 mph is not idling. 4-5 mph is pretty safe so I take it back now that you just modified that.

I noticed ZERO difference in wake shape, size or characteristics after my install. For what it's worth, my down pipe only extends 5-1/2" below the water level when planing and is only 2-1/4" wide at the water level and 1-7/8" at 5-1/2" down. It's not 4" wide until it gets way above the water level. Pretty sure you were implying it was 4" wide all the way down. My rudder is about 1" wide which leaves a net of being 5/8" max width beyond the rudder width. That's almost nothing IMO.

In response to your ninth paragraph, I never said it won't affect performance. In fact, to the contrary, I said I lost 1 mph off of my own top end.

Going back to my original comments, my biggest gripe was the last one I mentioned about the down force on the stern you thought you experienced. That was the catalyst for my reply. I think if the pipe was aimed forward or down and towards the bow, you would probably be right about it forcing the stern down like the wedge but that's not the way they should be installed. They should be straight down. That makes them neutral. I'm wondering if you had yours mounted with the downpipe pointed forward at all.
Old    John James (johnboyy7)      Join Date: Apr 2011       08-19-2013, 12:45 PM Reply   
i notice the FAE cleaned up my surf wave some. knocked down some of the prop wash i suppose.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-19-2013, 9:48 PM Reply   
Now that I think about it, it is oval shaped and not 4" wide at the bottom, more like 2ish?

I sent pictures to Larry after my install to get the "okay" that everything looked good before I tightened everything down, so I am confident it was correct. It was angled a little to the rear, but pretty close to straight down. I will have to go through my pictures.

I am glad it didnt change your wake, I wish it didnt change mine.... I would still have it on right now.

This winter I will play with it again.

On a side note, yesterday my 4 year old decided to try to wakeboard behind the boat... he got up and rode second try for about 25 feet, here is the moment he first gets out of the water.
Attached Images
 
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-20-2013, 12:42 AM Reply   
Awesome!
Old    Steve Lackey (steves1967)      Join Date: Oct 2006       08-21-2013, 9:08 PM Reply   
As a drag racer, it seems that you are really choking the exhaust with the FAE design, there by limiting your engine performance. You cant force both flows of exhaust into each other, then turn them 90* down and not expect a huge back pressure issue.
Old    Derek (camassanger)      Join Date: Oct 2009       08-21-2013, 10:04 PM Reply   
But, when you drag it through the water, it creates a vacuum - actually pulling the exhaust out of the boat!
Old    Alex Yermolenko (alexair)      Join Date: Oct 2008       08-21-2013, 11:35 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by camassanger View Post
But, when you drag it through the water, it creates a vacuum - actually pulling the exhaust out of the boat!
If you'll grab calculator and perform simple calculations and if you compare diameter of exhaust pipe which have to produce vacuum you'll see that vacuum can not appear because volume and speed of exhaust gas dramatically more than your can imagine. Due small water level above outlet of this type of exhaust system the water pressure has no noticeable effect only.
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       08-22-2013, 2:01 AM Reply   
Horsepower effects are really easy to measure on a boat as you are running max horsepower at your top speed. If the top speed goes down you have increased drag or have decreased HP. With my 330 Mercruiser I noticed at most a 1 mph decrease in speed. Maybe less. So there is a change but it did not significantly alter the performance of my boat.
On a side note I have watched 650 hp small block Chevy roadrace engines on the dyno testing various exhaust and muffler systems. This would not always be the case but open headers was worst HP and it turned out that the quietest muffler actually produced the most HP for this race application. (dual 4.5" pipes)

Last edited by rallyart; 08-22-2013 at 2:04 AM.
Old    Ty (wakeandsnow27)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-22-2013, 7:12 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by camassanger View Post
But, when you drag it through the water, it creates a vacuum - actually pulling the exhaust out of the boat!
I agree here, it should create a venturi therefore pulling the exhaust. Im not sure if it pulls more than the restriction from the bends of the tubing, but I really doubt it's a significant difference either way.
Old    Matt Beck (matt_beck)      Join Date: Apr 2009       08-22-2013, 7:53 AM Reply   
Can you hear this?


Exactly, it's FAE!
Old    DC (durty_curt)      Join Date: Apr 2008       08-22-2013, 11:52 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_beck View Post
Can you hear this?


Exactly, it's FAE!
do you hear that? its me laughing to this hilarious post!
Old    Swatguy (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       08-23-2013, 6:31 AM Reply   
So I guess all the testing PCM did way back when they were going to offer FAE a contract with Tige as a factory option was wrong. I guess all the Testing Nautique and PCM just did when they signed the contract is all wrong and all these boats engines will blow up in a month. You all can debate this all you want but the results speak volumes to any doubts. Let me preface this by saying I am not affiliated with FAE nor do I sell FAE. I am just one very very satisfied customer who likes this product and has had great results.

This argument cracks me up beyond belief. Does it restrict exhaust flow Yes. Is it still in the acceptable range for the engine to run efficiently and not have issues. YES. Does it create a drag. YES. Is it enough to adjust your riding angle HELL NO. It in no way acts like a wedge. If your boat can't plane because someone is dragging their arm in the water ther is a different issue. It's not because of the FAE. If it is effecting your wake its because you have it installed incorrectly or have an older model that needs an update. There have been some minor changes that Larry has done to get some better performance over the years on certain boats. My XStar being one of them. He ended up shortening the length of the pipe from the original design.

I have had a total of 4 FAE's on 4 different boats. Logged well over 2000 hours of FAE time combined with zero performance issues. I have not had one single engine issue on any of those boats. My current boat which has logged almost 800 hrs out of 1100 with an FAE has been in the shop 0 times. My poweseecoating was redone 2 times by FAE and still has peeled so my only regret is not going brushed or stainless. I have no speed loss. The original FAE I installed way back when on this boat ha a long pipe. It was an absolute pain to get dialed and not effect the wake. I talked with Larry. He sent me the new design problem solved. The angle of the down pipe and the location is crucial. It can effect the wake negatively if not installed perfectly. For me on my Star it needs to be centered between my rudder and prop shaft. When I first installed it I would get a small curl when it was directly in line with rudder. Slid it over and no more issues. I also know this because I apparently hit something in te river that shifted my FAE unknown to me at first and cause me to all of a sudden get a nasty wash. Once we realized the pipe had shifter about 2 inche we figured it out no problem.

I also regularly slalom at 32-33mph with the FAE and never had a single issue.

As far as CO fumes. I truly don't believ surfing without an FAE is unsafe or life threatening. However I did notice a huge difference in the way my body felts after spending 6 hours on the sund deck working the rope of a non FAE boat. My head was buzzing partly to the exhaust noise and partly probably due to the amount of CO fumes I got. I just felt groggy and achey. I could spend all day in a few of my buddy's bias with the FAE and not feel that. So to me it does something positive. My wife and kids also benefit as do friends and famy who come out on my boat. We entertain a bit more these days living on lake so being able to hold conversations at normal levels inside while the kids are boarding or tubing is awesome. It also allows us to spend a significant amount more time on the water because we don't te the engine noise all day while pulling people. So for me it's worth every penny and I will never own another boat without it. The customer service I have gotten and the benefits I feel it provides me make it a product I would recommend to anyone. I so don't even surf that much. I wakeboard probably 6-70 percent of the time. Ski 10-15 %. and surf 10-15% of the time.


Anytime someone ever wants to check it out on a boat I would be more than happy to take you for a spin.

Last edited by xstarrider; 08-23-2013 at 6:36 AM.
Old     (pprior)      Join Date: Jan 2012       08-23-2013, 7:34 AM Reply   
Love all the posts completely void of any knowledge of science and fluid dynamics.

Heck I learned the Venturi effect in high school, apparently many here were out smoking dope that day...
Old    Swatguy (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       08-23-2013, 9:44 AM Reply   
Wow sorry for all the typos. Typed it from my phone. My apologies
Old    Jonathan Bay (john211)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-23-2013, 9:51 AM Reply   
" ... and I will never own another boat without it."

Me neither. Those people getting a new boat with FAE pre-installed will never know the difference for their boat between with and without.

The 1st boat outing I had with the FAE, I was amazed at everything. For example, at about 28 MPH or so, the sound of water being sliced through by the bow drowns out the engine noise.

Nowadays, I take this all for granted. But it is seared into memory what that 1st day was like. I will put it on any future boat I own ... which is saying something. The installation on mine was not easy.
Old    Jonathan Bay (john211)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-23-2013, 9:56 AM Reply   
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/m...21/693846.html
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       08-23-2013, 5:04 PM Reply   
The single most annoying thing about an FAE is the sound of the bowrider where the owner spend a ton to add side pipes. Before the FAE you never tended to notice how annoying that is. It really should be a factory option on all boats.
Old    Alex Yermolenko (alexair)      Join Date: Oct 2008       11-10-2013, 5:20 AM Reply   
Here is my home made FAE after season of use (approx. 150 hours).
Attached Images
 
Old    Tim (dezul)      Join Date: Jul 2012       11-10-2013, 2:36 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexair View Post
Here is my home made FAE after season of use (approx. 150 hours).
That is awesome. I am sure you check the tubes everytime you pull the plug. Do you surf with it?

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