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Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       04-18-2013, 10:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by migs View Post
the 230 wake AINT finiky! Please.
If you have 4 people on the port side & 2 on the starboard - obviously the wake will be washy on one side.
Balance your weight on the boat, get your speed correct - where the wash is gone, and youre all set.
Look at all the vids of the pros riding the 230 - are they getting wash when they ride up the wake? NOPE.
They are finicky at slower speeds when you run heavy, Hell I've even talked to Shaun Murray about this. He didn't run his slower than 24mph, because it washed under that speed. If you want to ride fast and long then it's fine, but not very many people do.
Old    Miguel (migs)      Join Date: Aug 2006       04-18-2013, 10:47 AM Reply   
If youre running heavy, then obviously you need to be going faster. I dont consider that being a finiky wake. People get too caught up on a specific speed or line length they want to ride at. You need to get the wake clean(on any boat youre on - which will be different on any boat) depending on the weight and other factors of that day. Once the wake is clean - thats the appropriate speed and line length for that boat, that instance.

You cant come into a boat and say - "i wanna run at 22 mph and at 70 ft, and I want it sacked out" . Then if the boat doesnt produce the clean wake at those specifics, then its "finiky".

Always makes me laugh, when i get on someone else's boat and they ask me " how fast you wanna ride, how long do you want your line?"
My response is: "you tell me"
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       04-18-2013, 10:53 AM Reply   
So the point is that there are other boats the do better at slower speeds with more weight then the 230. You can sack out an LSV and run it at 19 and still get a clean wake. If I have to run faster than 23 sacked out I consider that a finicky wake.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       04-18-2013, 10:55 AM Reply   
I also talked to JD at the PWT stop years back when I had my '09. He also told me how he had to ride much faster and further back with a slammed 230. If you're a pro, that's all good. I'm no pro. I like a big wake, but I like to ride at 75 ft at 23mph. I never said the 230 was a bad boat. I loved the room, the fit and finish, the resale, the surf wave, etc. The ONLY knock I had on the 23 was the slight washing issue when I tried to run heavy at my normal speed and line length.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       04-18-2013, 10:57 AM Reply   
230 is a great boat, not putting it down, just it has that one flaw. I hate the wrecks once you start pushing over 23, so it would be a deal breaker for me.
Old    Miguel (migs)      Join Date: Aug 2006       04-18-2013, 10:57 AM Reply   
Chris - yes - i agree. The 230 doesnt do as well as others at slower speeds. Its a boat that needs to run faster when slammed.
Old    Ron (Nordicron)      Join Date: Aug 2011       04-18-2013, 11:30 AM Reply   
Loading a boat with 2k over stock and needing to ride 25+ at 85ft would be a deal breaker for me! As I have a wife and teen girls that wont ever ride that fast!

Question to ask though is a 230 wake with enough ballast to be clean at say 23mph just as good or better than a LSV or x-30 with equivalent weight or does a LSV or x-30 or whatever need more for same? I've also read and heard that the BU wakes without insane ballast have no pop which is the reason they can stay clean at slower speeds due to having no lip.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       04-18-2013, 11:47 AM Reply   
Bu wakes have pop stock, lips don't produce pop they produce kick. Pop is created by the upward force of the water. They stay clean because they are rampy and thick, the washing out is due to the lip becoming to thin and rolling over. The LSV has a great poppy wake stock and just gets better with weight. You can add more lip to it with the power wedge. if you really like lip the MXZ has a similar rampy wake tot he LSV, but with more lip. A 230 wake with enough weight to be clean at 23 is just different than an LSV at the same weight. Some people like abrupt SAN wakes and some rampier wakes. i actually love the old san wakes, but the LSV is still my favorite all around wake.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       04-18-2013, 1:07 PM Reply   
The 230's wake is more vertical, with less ramp. Accordingly, as it builds, it becomes somewhat unstable, because the foundation of the wake itself is thinner. The lsv wake is much rampier, with a larger and thicker base. Some people don't like that type of wake, because you have to ride all the way up and be more patient for your release. The rampy nature of the LSV wake allows it to build and build and yet remain stable. The only wake I like better than the LSV is the Axis A22. There reason for that is the A22 has less hook than the LSV. The wake builds like a plateau behind the A22. The LSV wake, while wide and rampy drops off somewhat on the non-face side. The A22 wake does so to a lesser degree. Cutting inside out behind an slammed A22 is like dropping off a ledge when going off the wake. With a slammed LSV, it's more like riding up a ramp before dropping off the face. What this translates to is that the A22 wake has an even larger and firmer transition and lip than the LSV wake. As a result, the A22 wake, imo, has the ability to get a little bigger than the LSV wake and remain clean. Not by much, but by some. At my level, do I need that extra little umph? No. Do some of my friends? Maybe.

At the end of the day, I will say that the stock 230 wake is very nice and clean and fun. So is the LSV wake and the MXZ wake. The MXZ wake is a little less rampy than the LSV, but not as steep as the 230. Ultimately, when comparing factory weight, the 230, lsv and mxz will produce very nice and consistent wakes that most novices to basic/intermediate riders will enjoy. There are material differences in wake shapes though, so you have to find what you like.
Old    Jake Johnson (Luv2wake)      Join Date: Apr 2013       04-18-2013, 2:26 PM Reply   
I honestly don't know why there are so many nautique haters. Resell is better and they are not going to discontinue the 230 or price it down. The 230 has a reputation of one of the best wakes out there and nautique is known for great built. Scratching my head about the hating on it.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       04-18-2013, 2:32 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luv2wake View Post
I honestly don't know why there are so many nautique haters. Resell is better and they are not going to discontinue the 230 or price it down. The 230 has a reputation of one of the best wakes out there and nautique is known for great built. Scratching my head about the hating on it.
it is just the way of the wakeworld.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       04-18-2013, 2:35 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
Bu wakes have pop stock, lips don't produce pop they produce kick. Pop is created by the upward force of the water.
fascinating logic...

i always thought pop is produced with your legs and the shape just determines when you unload the energy so that you can take advantage of the big lip or ramp in front of you...
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       04-18-2013, 2:57 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luv2wake View Post
I honestly don't know why there are so many nautique haters. Resell is better and they are not going to discontinue the 230 or price it down. The 230 has a reputation of one of the best wakes out there and nautique is known for great built. Scratching my head about the hating on it.
I don't think anyone is "hating" in nautique. Just pointing out one of the well known about issues of the 230. If you enjoy riding faster and at a longer rope length a weighted 230 is perfect.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       04-18-2013, 2:58 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
fascinating logic...

i always thought pop is produced with your legs and the shape just determines when you unload the energy so that you can take advantage of the big lip or ramp in front of you...
pop is produced when the downward force of the rider pushes against the upward force of the water displacement from the boat.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       04-18-2013, 3:15 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
pop is produced when the downward force of the rider pushes against the upward force of the water displacement from the boat.
Pop is combination of the extension of the riders legs, line tension, holding an edge, edge speed and handle control. Pop has significant amount to do with technique, no wake has "pop", a wake is a ramp or a lip or somewhere in between to pop from.

"Bu wakes have pop stock" every wake has "pop" if a rider knows how to use it. kick (210/230/rzr/21v/22v) is just the feeling of the pop vs a more floaty feeling of pop (star/g23/vlx).
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       04-18-2013, 3:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
Pop is combination of the extension of the riders legs, line tension, holding an edge, edge speed and handle control. Pop has significant amount to do with technique, no wake has pop, a wake is a ramp or a lip or somewhere in between to pop from.

"Bu wakes have pop stock" every wake has pop if a rider knows how to use it. kick (210/230/rzr/21v/22v) is just the feeling of the pop vs a more floaty feeling of pop (star/g23/vlx).
All that you described are variables of the downward force of the rider. Wakes have pop due to their upward energy. The more upward energy the poppier the wake will be. If wakes were just ramps then you'd hit them like you do a kicker, and your height would be relative to the size wake and the speed at which you hit it. The only Variables on the riders side that would count would be speed. Obviously that's not the case, and anyone who's hit a big wake that didn't have much energy can attest that it's tough to pop when the wake gives.

Last edited by cjh1669; 04-18-2013 at 3:29 PM.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       04-18-2013, 3:32 PM Reply   
I'd say kick as the abruptness and the angle the wake shape sends you when you pop.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       04-18-2013, 3:40 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
If wakes were just ramps then you'd hit them like you do a kicker, and your height would be relative to the size wake and the speed at which you hit it.
when you hit a kicker you edge to draw line tension and speed and pop a little at the top and voila, airborne, some kickers are big and send you out farther, some are shorter and steeper and send you up more. unless i've been doing it wrong all these years thats also how you properly hit a wake the only difference of course being how you hold your edge.

but ill roll with you. if "pop" is just the upward force of the wake, why is the lip not a contributing factor?

sorry i just don't understand your original comment. at all. yes bu wakes have "pop" stock, every boat should if a rider can exploit it, if a bu didn't id be very concerned. Lips contribute to your pop but give you a kicking feeling rather than a floating feeling. You add weight to increase the size of your wake and therefore also the height thanks to the size, just like a kicker? so i'm very confused as to why a lip would give you kick not pop, why any boat wouldn't have "pop stock" and why height off the wake isn't a factor of the wakes size, wouldn't that make the g23 irrelevant?
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       04-18-2013, 3:44 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
Obviously that's not the case, and anyone who's hit a big wake that didn't have much energy can attest that it's tough to pop when the wake gives.
this is a reflection of how hard the wake is. this argument can go a number of different ways, mostly if your wake is softer and you have crap technique it will make you pay.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       04-18-2013, 3:48 PM Reply   
I never said pop was just the upward force of the wake, it's a combination of the downward force of the rider vs the upward force of wake. A ramp and a wake will both send you airborne, but it's the pop of wake ridding gives disproportionate height compared to the actual size of the wake, which is what that popping feeling is. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.... You might want to look into some physics and wave dynamics.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       04-18-2013, 4:05 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
I never said pop was just the upward force of the wake
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
Bu wakes have pop stock, lips don't produce pop they produce kick. Pop is created by the upward force of the water.
...okay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
A ramp and a wake will both send you airborne, but it's the pop of wake ridding gives disproportionate height compared to the actual size of the wake, which is what that popping feeling is.
you never brought up proportions of wake to height vs a kicker size to height, only "pop" vs "kick" which apparently isn't a result of upward force of water

Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
I guess we will have to agree to disagree....
You might want to look into some physics and wave dynamics.
thanks for the advice, i've had my fair share of physics education. Yes we will your (albeit subtle) inference is that the "pop" of a bu is better than "kick" (which doesnt send you upwards, apparently?)

oh well either way you get punted given you know what you're doing behind the boat. shape is preference.

Last edited by simplej; 04-18-2013 at 4:10 PM.
Old    Rick Tinker (rickt)      Join Date: May 2002       04-18-2013, 6:06 PM Reply   
Jake,

Sorry to hear things have gone sideways. If we can be of any assistance from the factory, just let me know. My email is rtinker@skierschoice.com. Look forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely,

Rick Tinker
Skier's Choice
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       04-18-2013, 6:25 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickt View Post
Jake,

Sorry to hear things have gone sideways. If we can be of any assistance from the factory, just let me know. My email is rtinker@skierschoice.com. Look forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely,

Rick Tinker
Skier's Choice
and again nothing short of impressed by a select few boat companies whose higher ups who read the boards and support the consumers.

thanks for keeping us all in mind.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       04-18-2013, 6:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
...okay?

you never brought up proportions of wake to height vs a kicker size to height, only "pop" vs "kick" which apparently isn't a result of upward force of water


thanks for the advice, i've had my fair share of physics education. Yes we will your (albeit subtle) inference is that the "pop" of a bu is better than "kick" (which doesnt send you upwards, apparently?)

oh well either way you get punted given you know what you're doing behind the boat. shape is preference.
You're right. Have a great summer
Old    shawn d scott (shawn_scott)      Join Date: Aug 2003       04-18-2013, 6:56 PM Reply   
Got a nice 23LSV I need to sell
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       04-18-2013, 7:48 PM Reply   
Am I the only one who thought when the OP announced they had chosen the SA that they didn't actually buy it?
Old    Jake Johnson (Luv2wake)      Join Date: Apr 2013       04-18-2013, 9:41 PM Reply   
Put a deposit on it because waiting to receive the balance for the boat till Wednesday (not that is anybody's business )and were waiting for additional speakers. Since I didn't take the boat I still have the peragative to change my mind. I also believe I said would post pix WHEN we picked it up.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       04-18-2013, 10:33 PM Reply   
Not to pry but what exactly changed your mind? I know you said that you didn't want to be a guinea pig and you didn't want to overpay. Did you find out the price ended up being higher than it should or something? I don't really get the guinea pig comment though. The hull either works or it doesn't. What part are your concerned about being a guinea pig? Supra has been around along time.

By the way I am not trying to be a jerk. I hope you do take your time and find the perfect boat for you. You just seemed to be pumped up by and sold on the SA. You even got to test the boats didn't you?

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