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Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       03-12-2013, 8:33 PM Reply   
The pieces that carpet are attached to with adhesive are 3/4 inch thick black preformed plastic.

TroyRanger, does that answer your question?
Old    Preston (Bamabonners)      Join Date: Jul 2011       03-12-2013, 9:25 PM Reply   
I don't understand why buttranger is so hung up on the glue thing. Big deal..... Does it affect structural rigidity?
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       03-12-2013, 10:02 PM Reply   
If it's covered by carpet, it is no longer an exposed surface. Actually, gluing the carpet down would add a tiny amount to the structural rigidity.
Also, I've always thought that rabbits might be gods and now it has been confirmed thanks to the internet. I will sleep well tonight thinking of Bugs Bunny.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       03-12-2013, 10:29 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by willyt View Post
rabbits are gods
Bugs bunny could get shot in the face with a shotgun and live....

This has some credence.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       03-12-2013, 10:37 PM Reply   
So Malibu is the ring that finds them, Mastercraft is the ring that binds them, and Tige is the ring to rule them all?

Preformed plastic? Like Tupperware? This explains why MC's and CC's are heavier. AFTR (and for the record), I eat my meals out of billet aluminum containers.
Old     (pkh80)      Join Date: Oct 2012       03-12-2013, 10:55 PM Reply   
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-12-2013, 11:08 PM Reply   
having ridden in many carpet covered plywood boats (old tige's and malibu's, and SAN's??) carpet covered preformed plastic boats (supras, moombas, malibu VLX's, 23LSV, 247 LSV's, SAN's....etc) fiberglass tubbed boats with snap in or magnet in carpets (stars, Axis, x-45's, MB's...etc) and fiberglass with plastic floors with snap in carpets (new VLX) I can say that all the fiberglass tub boats, including my A22, are the loudest and "coldest" feeling boats. The boats with carpeted seat bases and floors over plywood like my old Tige, or carpeted seat bases and floors like the supras and Malibus, are the quietest in cabin by far, also have a "living room" feeling and sound to it, very comfortable, and going through chop or dubs in the carpeted base and floor boats had a "deader" sound to it.

so structurally, I think malibu is doing just fine with their tried and true system and I love the carpeted seat bases and floors, the throw a carpet saver on top of the floor and you have a soft, plush, quiet, "warm" feeling boat... one that the words "comfortable interior" are very common when describing bu's.

This is all so dumb. I heard the same MC talking points in 07... always pointing at other manufacturers boats "problems" but never explaining what is good about their product... I guess it hasn't changed in 6 years.
Old    Tommy (Readyaimfire)      Join Date: Jun 2012       03-12-2013, 11:25 PM Reply   
If Lon makes an appearance in this thread, it'll become an instant classic.
Old     (nitrousbird)      Join Date: Sep 2008       03-13-2013, 2:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
CARB does their tests via SAE standards, and Ilmore uses these tests to rate the engines. I converted them quickly.....

Ilmore-
5.7=320hp
6.0=382hp
6.2=430hp
7.4=522hp
All same as advertised...

Indmar-
5.7=308hp adv = 350 i think.
6.0=361hp adv=410
6.2 SC=520hp adv=555

PCM-
6.0=373hp adv=409
6.2 SC=506hp adv=550
All of these motors use GM longblocks. Only differences are the tuning and the crap bolted to them. If you think the magical tuning and exhaust system Illmore uses make that much more power than anyone else, you are just stupid. Not only are you a bling MC fanboy, you are a blind Illmore fanboy too because that's what MC uses now.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       03-13-2013, 4:14 AM Reply   
Most new cars are bonded [glued] together now.Glue makes a stronger bond than spot welds.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       03-13-2013, 6:02 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrousbird View Post
All of these motors use GM longblocks. Only differences are the tuning and the crap bolted to them. If you think the magical tuning and exhaust system Illmore uses make that much more power than anyone else, you are just stupid. Not only are you a bling MC fanboy, you are a blind Illmore fanboy too because that's what MC uses now.

I posted test information that was done directly by a government testing agency, and also included a link to the information, direct from the California Air Resources Board...... I did not pull this info out of my a$$.... Who is blind here??

Not all of Ilmore engines are a spec'd long block either. The 7.4l is a completely hand built engine, that doesn't use a single component in common with any other production marine, or automobile engine. Even the block has never been in an automobile application.

And if you do not think that cam profiles, intake manifolds, compression ratios, and tuning, will have an effect on horsepower, you would be the stupid one....... with all due respect.

I have owned Malibu's and MasterCrafts, and I liked them both. I never had any issue with Indmar engines. I simply posted unbiased government test info that shows that Ilmore's produce more HP than their competitors...... Who is the fanboy again??
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       03-13-2013, 6:52 AM Reply   
So MC makes a heavier boat, so what? Quality schmality when after several years you still can't make a tower that works. How about a plug and play system MC...? One that works!

And don't laugh Malibu. Malibu is the 1980's of boats, as in, their interiors are straight from the set of "Boogie Nights."

Tige guys chuckling now? Tell me Tige enthusiasts? Does Tige have a patent on their game-changing mesh seat backing? They must, because it hasn't been copied yet.

CC? Please, please, build me a boat that has something other than 90-degree angles in the interior.

Point is, to the OP, MB's are great boats and so are Bu's. All boats have their pros and cons but not one person here has heard of one Malibu falling apart. In fact, one survived a hurricane then sat in a tree for several years. I heard even that LMFAO are going to shoot the "Party Rock Anthem" music video in that same boat.

Malibu = best selling boat for a reason, I can be wrong, but the market is never wrong! Ask Adam Smith.

Every day I'm shuffling.
Old     (nitrousbird)      Join Date: Sep 2008       03-13-2013, 7:10 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
I posted test information that was done directly by a government testing agency, and also included a link to the information, direct from the California Air Resources Board...... I did not pull this info out of my a$$.... Who is blind here??

Not all of Ilmore engines are a spec'd long block either. The 7.4l is a completely hand built engine, that doesn't use a single component in common with any other production marine, or automobile engine. Even the block has never been in an automobile application.

And if you do not think that cam profiles, intake manifolds, compression ratios, and tuning, will have an effect on horsepower, you would be the stupid one....... with all due respect.

I have owned Malibu's and MasterCrafts, and I liked them both. I never had any issue with Indmar engines. I simply posted unbiased government test info that shows that Ilmore's produce more HP than their competitors...... Who is the fanboy again??
You are the fanboy. The blind boy can't read, as CARB didn't do any of the testing. Directly from their website right above the power numbers...not sure how you missed it:

"This database contains information submitted to the Air Resources Board from manufacturers. The Air Resources Board has reviewed this information and believes it to be accurate, but does not assume any responsibility for any errors or inaccuracies that may exist herein. The Air Resources Board may revise the information contained in this document at any time."

Where is your "unbiased test info?"

Intake manifolds, compression ratios and cam profiles are all the same. These are GM Marine longblocks. GM isn't in the business of selling marine motors to boat companies - instead they sell longblocks to companies that in turn bolt stuff on to them and sell them to boat companies. Do you think different exhaust and tuning profiles are making this big of a difference in power? Get real.

The reason you can be a fan of one brand of marine engine package over the other is based on the quality of components bolted on to the longblock and the design of those components - this things can vary to a decent degree.

The only reason Illmore is selling their "own" 7.4L is because GM is no longer marketing a big block marine crate motor to OEM's. So that is the one exception to all of the motors listed - even then, this is the first I've heard of them using some unique block or internal components...show me some proof. Not that it has anything to do with this argument.
Old    Tuneman (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-13-2013, 7:15 AM Reply   
Uh da guy knuh the gow thuh da gis wuh the gun guh da guy thuh duh gat uh the gowns a duh huh the gydrodyne…wuh du gell, huh the ge’s muh the guy duh the gad. Huh du gee huh the gas a duh suh the geventy uh da geight Huh the gydrodyne uh da gand thuh duh ge huh the gull uh du gis tuh the gwo in da giches thuh da gick. Suh the go, uh da gas yuh the gou cuh da gan suh the gee, uh da gall thuh da gem Muh the gastercrafts uh duh gand Muh the galibus uh da gare cuh the gompletely infuh the gerior.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       03-13-2013, 7:30 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrousbird View Post
You are the fanboy. The blind boy can't read, as CARB didn't do any of the testing. Directly from their website right above the power numbers...not sure how you missed it:

"This database contains information submitted to the Air Resources Board from manufacturers. The Air Resources Board has reviewed this information and believes it to be accurate, but does not assume any responsibility for any errors or inaccuracies that may exist herein. The Air Resources Board may revise the information contained in this document at any time."

Where is your "unbiased test info?"

Intake manifolds, compression ratios and cam profiles are all the same. These are GM Marine longblocks. GM isn't in the business of selling marine motors to boat companies - instead they sell longblocks to companies that in turn bolt stuff on to them and sell them to boat companies. Do you think different exhaust and tuning profiles are making this big of a difference in power? Get real.

The reason you can be a fan of one brand of marine engine package over the other is based on the quality of components bolted on to the longblock and the design of those components - this things can vary to a decent degree.

The only reason Illmore is selling their "own" 7.4L is because GM is no longer marketing a big block marine crate motor to OEM's. So that is the one exception to all of the motors listed - even then, this is the first I've heard of them using some unique block or internal components...show me some proof. Not that it has anything to do with this argument.
Um...... You need to read this- http://www.arb.ca.gov/regact/lore2006/fro2c.pdf

You mean to tell me that a government orginization uses a disclaimer for data?!?!?

What do you think they mean by "review the data"??? Do you think they glance at the application, and just stamp it "approved"?? Give me a break. The attached document outlines some of the test parameters. There are many other parts to it, which can be found in the "verification proceedures" section. If you have a couple hours, read them all.... The long and short of it, is that if the submitted data is not verified by CARB, on an engine that is chosen by CARB, they will edit the data in the application, and they reserve the right to do so indefinitely.

You are cracking me up.... the 7.4l Ilmore is not even a big block!!

Oh, and marine engine companies are welcome to choose different variants of long blocks for their applications. There are several different longblock configurations available for each engine size.

Last edited by Fixable; 03-13-2013 at 7:32 AM.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       03-13-2013, 7:52 AM Reply   
Actually, you have to read this one first, and then the other one, because the other one only containes the amendments for 07 and later engines....http://www.arb.ca.gov/regact/lore2006/fro2a1.pdf
Old     (whiteflashwatersports1)      Join Date: Dec 2012       03-13-2013, 8:02 AM Reply   
This thread is crazy - to be able to argue so passionately about boats that cost $50,000 to $150,000 I am just happy to be a part of it. They are all very well built - pick one based on your storage situation riding preferences, color, bling, option preferences drivability etc. What is important a tower that folds easy, does not rattle etc, easy to tow, trailer launch, etc. All of these manufacurers have form down how you use it and it functions for you and your crew are key. Pick a few out, test em get the wifes approval and go for it. Happy boating!!!
Old    TJ (Houstonshark)      Join Date: Jan 2011       03-13-2013, 8:06 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetRanger View Post
Tige guys chuckling now? Tell me Tige enthusiasts? Does Tige have a patent on their game-changing mesh seat backing? They must, because it hasn't been copied yet.
Tige didn't design or build that chair and it went away (much to the dismay of nee Tige owners) in 2011. It is pretty comfy, but not a game changer. TAPS and no ballast needed was, however.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       03-13-2013, 8:22 AM Reply   
My buddy runs TAPS 0, speed 28.5, no ballast, at 95' back in his RZ2 for surfing port, starboard he goes to 28.

He's looking at a 22mxz now though because he's got 14 golden retrievers that all love riding in the bow.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       03-13-2013, 8:32 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetRanger View Post
Here is some "inside info".

Exposed surfaces covered in carpet in Malibu's are in fact plywood until proven otherwise.

Rule of scientific deduction: you don't need to prove your theory, you only need lack of disproof.
BU decks, except the MXZ line, are all 3 piece fiberglass decks. The carpeted seat bases are fiberglass. The positive that I've found to this build is one you get more give from the deck that helps prevent gel coat cracks that you tend to find in 2 piece decks, and the it muffles the engine noise in the boat. The MXZ line is a 2 piece deck construction where the seat bases are not carpeted. in my exp the MXZ cockpit is much louder than the other Bu models.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       03-13-2013, 8:44 AM Reply   
Not saying anything one way or another. Here is a 23 LSV seat base from where I installed a heater outlet. You can clearly see how they round the corners also.

I would be happy to post a picture of an MC cutout if anyone asks. I don't want to get in the middle of this. I only wanted to answer the question about the seat base material since no one can agree.

Yes, the 7.4L engine is a hand built engine by Ilmor. It is also the highest horsepower catalyzed production marine engine in the world. The LSA is not catalyzed, thus the lower emissions rating.
Attached Images
   
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-13-2013, 8:46 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetRanger View Post
So MC makes a heavier boat, so what? Quality schmality when after several years you still can't make a tower that works. How about a plug and play system MC...? One that works!

And don't laugh Malibu. Malibu is the 1980's of boats, as in, their interiors are straight from the set of "Boogie Nights."

Tige guys chuckling now? Tell me Tige enthusiasts? Does Tige have a patent on their game-changing mesh seat backing? They must, because it hasn't been copied yet.

CC? Please, please, build me a boat that has something other than 90-degree angles in the interior.

Point is, to the OP, MB's are great boats and so are Bu's. All boats have their pros and cons but not one person here has heard of one Malibu falling apart. In fact, one survived a hurricane then sat in a tree for several years. I heard even that LMFAO are going to shoot the "Party Rock Anthem" music video in that same boat.

Malibu = best selling boat for a reason, I can be wrong, but the market is never wrong! Ask Adam Smith.

Every day I'm shuffling.
You want to know whats so cool about ignorance.........not knowing its you!

The mesh seat you speak of in Tige boats was the Attwood Marine Vision Air seat and was discontinued by Attwood about 3-4 years ago. So check with Attwood about any patents.
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       03-13-2013, 9:05 AM Reply   
My engine, that is the same as your engine, is better because my dealer told me so!!!

Pimp Fanboy Groupee call it what you like. You are all of the above if you buy into the super fiberglass or engine crap. Few Hp either way will never be felt. Priceless

All the brands are solid boats that will serve you well. It comes down to PERSONAL preference. Or for poor people like me, what you can get the best deal on.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       03-13-2013, 9:17 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
BU decks, except the MXZ line, are all 3 piece fiberglass decks. The carpeted seat bases are fiberglass. The positive that I've found to this build is one you get more give from the deck that helps prevent gel coat cracks that you tend to find in 2 piece decks, and the it muffles the engine noise in the boat. The MXZ line is a 2 piece deck construction where the seat bases are not carpeted. in my exp the MXZ cockpit is much louder than the other Bu models.
I can confirm. The MXZ is louder inside than the LSV 23.
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       03-13-2013, 9:23 AM Reply   
Wow - this thread is fricking ridiculous..

We're now arguing about the build quality of boat basaed on the way the carpet is attached to the fiberglass.. Sound like a bunch of old retired broads living in a trailer park community in South Florida..

#WakeWorldWinters
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       03-13-2013, 9:27 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chpthril View Post
You want to know whats so cool about ignorance.........not knowing its you!

The mesh seat you speak of in Tige boats was the Attwood Marine Vision Air seat and was discontinued by Attwood about 3-4 years ago. So check with Attwood about any patents.
Whoa easy I'm a Tige and MB guy merely pointing out that no boat is perfect. BUT, if I'm going to have an imperfect boat, you may as well be able to empty and fill the ballast in 60 seconds.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       03-13-2013, 9:41 AM Reply   
For all the guys throwing around fanboy.... Here is the urban dictionary definitions for u-

"An arrogant person who goes into an outburst every time something he likes is questioned. Fanboys usually acuse others of being fanboys."

"A pathetic insult often used by fanboys themselves to try and put down people who don't like whatever it is they like."

This is classic...... You can clearly tell the ones who fly off the handle and throw out the "fanboy"

Love this thread..... Worst part is, nobody even said that Malibu was a bad boat. Still, the butthurt swells up from the details about differences...
Old    Bruce Mac (brucemac)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-13-2013, 12:19 PM Reply   
thanks, awesome lunch
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-13-2013, 12:24 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetRanger View Post
Whoa easy I'm a Tige and MB guy merely pointing out that no boat is perfect. BUT, if I'm going to have an imperfect boat, you may as well be able to empty and fill the ballast in 60 seconds.
Whoa, easy I'm a Tige and MB guy and I dont care what boat or boats you like. With each and every post, you clearly exhibit your lack of knowledge in many areas of life. Since this is a boating forum, i'll still to boats. You made a sarcastic comment about the mesh chair and Tige having a patent on it since no one has copied this "game changer" of a chair. Well, im just stating the facts. its not Tige's chair, it was Attwoods.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       03-13-2013, 12:29 PM Reply   
I can't believe JetRanger's trolling is still eliciting responses. He's a maestro of da troll.
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       03-13-2013, 12:38 PM Reply   
Funny...now he is Tige and MB. Last post wasn't it Malibu or was it Mastercraft? I get confused.
Old    TJ (Houstonshark)      Join Date: Jan 2011       03-13-2013, 1:17 PM Reply   
Shouldn't the new XSTAR you ordered be in by now TroyD? Or was it a G23? I forgot.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       03-13-2013, 2:35 PM Reply   
This TroyD sounds like a douchebag. I wish he'd log in right now, though I'm sure he'd fail to summon even one ounce of my ability in an intellectual battle.
Old    Mike (slowwwflowww)      Join Date: Mar 2011       03-13-2013, 3:08 PM Reply   
This all could have been avoided.To the OP,the answer to your question is obviously NO.
Old    Preston (Bamabonners)      Join Date: Jul 2011       03-14-2013, 9:06 AM Reply   
I can't think of any modern wakeboat brand that has had any catastrophic events related to design failures - well, except for that MC X45 incident where the bow went under and the boat cut up the people that fell overboard.

Bottom line, buy the one you like the best and be a fanboy for it!!

Warm weather can come fast enough!!
Old    Willy T (willyt)      Join Date: May 2010       03-14-2013, 9:32 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamabonners View Post
I can't think of any modern wakeboat brand that has had any catastrophic events related to design failures - well, except for that MC X45 incident where the bow went under and the boat cut up the people that fell overboard.

Bottom line, buy the one you like the best and be a fanboy for it!!

Warm weather can come fast enough!!
you're a moron if you think that was a design flaw.

however, if it was in jest, well played sir, well played
Old    Preston (Bamabonners)      Join Date: Jul 2011       03-14-2013, 12:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by willyt View Post
you're a moron if you think that was a design flaw.

however, if it was in jest, well played sir, well played
Well, the courts did rule that MC was 80% at fault. LOL!

Yes, I was poking at Alan Slabaugh!
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       03-14-2013, 12:49 PM Reply   
Preston, don't get me started on sinking Malibu's. J/K
Old    Ryan Bedford (annq42)      Join Date: Mar 2006       03-15-2013, 8:00 AM Reply   
None of the major boat brands are poorly built, but both CC and MC do little things to make a nicer boat. I have had 7 boats, 5 of which I bought new, I put about 300-500 engine hours per season and I have many friends that also have different types of boats, most of which are Bu. They make a nice boat, I like riding behind it, but the little things that make it feel 'cheaper' than my MC, or my friends CC. Things like the the dash, the cleats, and the interior walls. Are they poorly built, no. I always equate it to cars: Bu is like a Caddy, and CC and MC are like Merc and BMW. They are all nice cars, and comparable on paper, but once you sit and drive one you can feel the difference. Are they worth the coast difference, maybe not, but something is to be said about the body (hull) style and your relationship with the dealer.

But I will say this about Bu: We were being chased out by a thunder storm on a busy day, and it was rough, very rough. We had the middle walk through window down and locked in. We were running about 25-28mph and were getting close to home, when we went over a biggish wake and the middle window fell through and wedged itself under the windshield. The entire hull had flexed enough to create a big enough gap for the middle window to fall through, this is almost about a full inch to inch and a half of flex. We got home safely and tried to pull the window back out, but my buddy had to end up taking it to the dealer, where they had to remove the windshield to fix it. Even though the boat was over 4 years old, the dealer was able to warranty it off, with no cost to my buddy.
So when someone claims thickness of hull doesn't matter... its a bunch of bull. It does matter, and this is the perfect example of why. Am I saying Bu's is too thin, no I am not. This was a very extreme case, and we probably couldnt replicate it if we tried, nor would of I believed it, if I didnt see it with my own eyes. Out of a lifetime of boating, I have never seen a hull flex that much, nor have I ever heard of that happening with any other boat brand, non-sport boats included (who have much thinner hulls). But even though I have nothing but respect for Bu for fixing it for free and replacing the middle window with the only question asked is to see a picture.

I would have no problem buying a Bu (except I dont think they are very pretty, and that is 100% opinion), knowing that the boat will last and even if something does go wrong, Bu will take care of it and do me right. They are great boats, and have a good price point.
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       03-15-2013, 8:39 AM Reply   
So you can honestly say that a MC or a CC is the same situation wouldn't have flexed the same way. How can or would you know? Just sounds like owners goggles to me. Mine is better because I paid more and the dealer told me so. Seems to be all we hear on this site anymore. When we looked at used boats last fall Mastercrafts were hands down the worst condition boats for wear of any brand we saw. I'm talking wear not abuse. Vinyl cracking all over the boat, cracked panels, loose towers, nappy carpet, stuff falling apart, etc. These were early 2000 year boats and I know MC has known problems in that era and has corrected some. Nautique was the opposite. The used ones we saw were as they say "tight and right". They had aged very well, but the MC had not at all. Bu's of that era looked far better.

Disclaimer: I don't own any of these 3 brands and am reporting what I saw with my own 2 eyes. Wake boat market is very competitive, if a thicker hull was needed the others would have it too. Same with the engines if one was so much better the others would fix that. I just see it as salesmanship. Again my opinion.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       03-15-2013, 10:40 AM Reply   
I have owned boats built by all three brands. In my experience, they are completely and totally comparable in terms of build quality. I had problems with boats built by MC, CC and BU. Nothing huge, but problems. The vinyl on my MC needed to be replaced. The welds on the tower broke on my old XStar. I had a tower crack on one of my 230's. I had some minor gelcoat cracks on all three of my 230's, as well as on my '07 VLX. I had seats pull at seams in every boat that I have owned except for my last Axis. I had electrical components fail with several of my 230's, which prevented me from being able to use those boats for some periods of time (throttle position sensor went bad, gps puck didn't hold signal, etc.)

Does MC (and CC in their G Series boats) also incorporate additinal bling features, which drive up the price of those boats? Yes they do. Do those billet aluminum nick nacks mean that those boats are better built? Not in my mind, but everyone is going to have their own opinions. To me, the more complicated you make something, the more prone it is to fail or require service down the road. When my electric ironman watch stops keeping time, I repace a battery at a cost of $1. When my automatic submariner starts adding seconds or running slow, it's $700 for a new main spring and a recalibration.

I can tell you I was at the Malibu plant this week and watched the build process from start to finish, and I feel that BU makes a hell of a boat, and that they are both structurally and mechanically tip top. Look, I know people who have both sold and built Malibus, Mastercrafts and Nautiques. You can't go wrong with any boat manufactured by these companies from a structural standpoint.
Old    Is it summer yet? (trentj6930)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-15-2013, 10:55 AM Reply   
Well put Chattwake!!
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       03-15-2013, 11:23 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by annq42 View Post
None of the major boat brands are poorly built, but both CC and MC do little things to make a nicer boat. I have had 7 boats, 5 of which I bought new, I put about 300-500 engine hours per season and I have many friends that also have different types of boats, most of which are Bu. They make a nice boat, I like riding behind it, but the little things that make it feel 'cheaper' than my MC, or my friends CC. Things like the the dash, the cleats, and the interior walls. Are they poorly built, no. I always equate it to cars: Bu is like a Caddy, and CC and MC are like Merc and BMW. They are all nice cars, and comparable on paper, but once you sit and drive one you can feel the difference. Are they worth the coast difference, maybe not, but something is to be said about the body (hull) style and your relationship with the dealer.

But I will say this about Bu: We were being chased out by a thunder storm on a busy day, and it was rough, very rough. We had the middle walk through window down and locked in. We were running about 25-28mph and were getting close to home, when we went over a biggish wake and the middle window fell through and wedged itself under the windshield. The entire hull had flexed enough to create a big enough gap for the middle window to fall through, this is almost about a full inch to inch and a half of flex. We got home safely and tried to pull the window back out, but my buddy had to end up taking it to the dealer, where they had to remove the windshield to fix it. Even though the boat was over 4 years old, the dealer was able to warranty it off, with no cost to my buddy.
So when someone claims thickness of hull doesn't matter... its a bunch of bull. It does matter, and this is the perfect example of why. Am I saying Bu's is too thin, no I am not. This was a very extreme case, and we probably couldnt replicate it if we tried, nor would of I believed it, if I didnt see it with my own eyes. Out of a lifetime of boating, I have never seen a hull flex that much, nor have I ever heard of that happening with any other boat brand, non-sport boats included (who have much thinner hulls). But even though I have nothing but respect for Bu for fixing it for free and replacing the middle window with the only question asked is to see a picture.

I would have no problem buying a Bu (except I dont think they are very pretty, and that is 100% opinion), knowing that the boat will last and even if something does go wrong, Bu will take care of it and do me right. They are great boats, and have a good price point.
Generally a well balanced post. But the bold piece above is a bit off base. First of all, this thread is about build quality, not bling.

But since you brought it up... how can you say that Bu's hand stitched, vinyl wrapped dash make the boat feel cheaper than the molded plastic dash on the MC and CC? I don't get it.

I also don't understand the comment about interior walls. Nothing feels cheaper to me on a boat's interior than bare fiberglass walls. The MC's and CC's are full of plain white fiberglass (e.g. look below the helms). Personally, I like my boats to feel plush and well appointed inside. On the Malibu you won't see nearly that much bare fiberglass...

Not sure what you mean by cheap cleats. I had to chuckle at that one...






Last edited by ixfe; 03-15-2013 at 11:27 AM.
Old    TJ (Houstonshark)      Join Date: Jan 2011       03-15-2013, 1:03 PM Reply   
Is that a stock Nautique steering wheel? That thing is sick!
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       03-15-2013, 1:23 PM Reply   
http://youtu.be/W5G3vDt1k8w


This always freaks me out a bit. Along with wedge failures... No idea how to embed

They always seemed well built but IMO pricing is absurd 95 k for an Mxz? On boat show special? Really?

But I don't see how any of these boats are badly built, there is just a difference in trim and fit and finish but build quality? No. Sorry.
MC is thicker, but when you look at other boats, tige specifically it's THICKER than the MC's where it SHOULD BE and thinner where it doesn't need to be vs just medium thick all over...Everyone's build process is different .

Last edited by simplej; 03-15-2013 at 1:31 PM.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       03-15-2013, 2:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
http://youtu.be/W5G3vDt1k8w


This always freaks me out a bit. Along with wedge failures... No idea how to embed

They always seemed well built but IMO pricing is absurd 95 k for an Mxz? On boat show special? Really?

But I don't see how any of these boats are badly built, there is just a difference in trim and fit and finish but build quality? No. Sorry.
MC is thicker, but when you look at other boats, tige specifically it's THICKER than the MC's where it SHOULD BE and thinner where it doesn't need to be vs just medium thick all over...Everyone's build process is different .
That video can't be real. Looks like you video shopped in to push your Tige agenda. Propaganda much?
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       03-15-2013, 3:01 PM Reply   
How is this propaganda? The fact that I've measured the fiberglass thickness in an x25 vs comparable tiges is simply an example how different build strategies lead to different results? Sorry I have gone over every boat with a fine tooth comb with the exclusion of Malibu or I would have referenced them instead... MC uses a top deck like 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch thick over the entire deck, at least at accessible,measurable points. The tiges range from 1/8 to over an inch depending on the location of the measurement. Under seats lips and supports specifically, where it's easy to see. It's just a different way to build a boat, I'm sorry that you fail to comprehend and feel the need to troll me for making the argument that just because more fiberglass is used over all doesn't necessarily lead to a better built boat. It's just a different way of doing things.

If I was pushing the tige agenda I'd be arguing that it was the best built boat and that it is supreme, im not. Rather, I'm just pointing out every manufacturer has a different way of doing things and that no one way of doing leads to a supreme build, just different characteristics.
Again that video freaks me out along with early wedge failures but Im still sure that you need not worry about hull failure these days.

Cool your jets, Troy ranger.
Old    Ryan Bedford (annq42)      Join Date: Mar 2006       03-15-2013, 4:17 PM Reply   
RB, if you read my post I try to make it clear that the circumstances were overly rare, however the thicker hull is created for just that reason, less flex and better support. Do I feel that MC is over build, maybe, do I feel that Bu's is under built, no. I cannot say either way, as I am neither a structural engineer or a hydro engineer, but the purpose was to stress that in the end size matters, but on the flip to also stress the support Bu gave my buddy when something did happen.

DBC the inner wall comment is the amount of flex that they have in them. Just like the video above shows, in the Bu I can see them vibrate and flex when pulling someone, or when playing music. Simple things like through bolts on the surf tabs and cleats make all the difference in situations. Are they needed everywhere like MC? No, but let me tell you I dont want to have my boat out for a month as I get re-gelled because I didnt have the through bolt. Also, you chose the lowest end MC dash to show off in the picture.

Any boat well taken care of will always do you right, and last a long time. Thats true for any aspect of it. I dont think anyone here will argue that case. But just like everything else, certain types of boats attract certain types of people. As example Audi owners as described by Top Gear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU6uvU1Ebnc. So does that mean MC owners dont take care of their boats? Maybe, but not all of us are like that.

Like I said, I buy MC not because I think they are the best quality boat, but rather because I think they are the prettiest, and I have a great relationship with my dealer. Both of those reasons are 100% opinionated, and truthfully I like that my friends have other boats so I can have a variety to ride behind. I like some wakes better than others, and I like the Xstar's. Ironically the next best wake I like is the Supra's (I have not ridden behind CC's G-series nor the Bu's pickle fork, so that might change.) Frankly, that is all that matters, you can have the best built boat in the world, but if you dont like the wake, then you bought the wrong boat.
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       03-15-2013, 4:34 PM Reply   
Just FYI as fiberglass gets thicker it is less prone to flex and more prone to cracking and breakage when stressed(like going over waves/wakes). Hulls are intended to flex. The fiberglass has to or it will crack and break. I'd personally rather have flexing then cracking while on the water, but to each their own.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-15-2013, 4:39 PM Reply   
I was waiting for someone to imbed these 2 MC videos.... it seems like an appropriate time to bring these bad boys out again.
Sorry I didn't embed them, having issues...

http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=796695
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       03-15-2013, 4:45 PM Reply   
Simplej, I'm a Tige guy through and through. I was there before they were a legit mainstream brand, there when no pro would touch them, there when the guy from Boattest.com said "no way the market is ready for real stitching on vinyl and mesh seats."

I'm no bandwagon jumper like these MB guys, I have even contemplated getting a lower back Tige tattoo until I heard it had already been done.

Tige as a boat and a brand speaks for itself, so I will be damned if I'm going to sit here while you put down Malibu just to lift Tige up. I zoomed in on that video you posted and saw the pixels indicating you shopped it. You ever heard of a bu breaking? And these wedge failures you speak of? Your video, real or not, is moot, like your relevance on wakeworld.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       03-15-2013, 4:47 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_defacto View Post
I was waiting for someone to imbed these 2 MC videos.... it seems like an appropriate time to bring these bad boys out again.
Sorry I didn't embed them, having issues...

http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=796695
Wow, that MC has more flex than simplej's stories.

Simplej, does your X25 flex like that?
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       03-15-2013, 4:56 PM Reply   
trollin'...trollin'....trollin'
Old    Ron (Nordicron)      Join Date: Aug 2011       03-15-2013, 5:25 PM Reply   
If you guys wanna see some flex I can dig up those nice vids of the x-45 and x-25 getting their flex on
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       03-15-2013, 5:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetRanger View Post
Wow, that MC has more flex than simplej's stories.

Simplej, does your X25 flex like that?
Hahaha.

That video does not belong to me but rather am wakeboarder and film maker, Mitch bergsma I have no affiliation with him in any way.

And yes, all the MCs I've been in rattle quite a bit in the chop. I've always attributed it to their excess aluminum trim and tower shake. But again I don't see where I introduced any idea of "flex" or quality into my anecdotes. The point is that each boat does things differently and that does not mean it is not well made, they just have different characteristics.
Use of the search bar will pull up some stories about wedge failures.
Just because malibu uses "whorehouse" carpet on the walls doesn't mean it's not a well built boat. I would prefer a monocoque like the newer malibus but that doesn't make the other ones badly built. Have they had wedge issues In the past? Yes. Is that video nerve racking? Yes. Do I think it's a "badly built" boat? No.
I also never put down malibu aside from their outrageous price tags. But because of things like wedge failures and this video I might understand where the threads origins lie, the wedge issues are old and no longer of concern as far as i kmow but are still scarey, and I can't speak for the video, who knows what a fat sub would do to an MC, tige, MB, or even a nautique. It's just a shocking visualization of the OP's concerns.
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       03-15-2013, 5:51 PM Reply   
How can a MC rattle in the chop when they have all that extra fiberglass. Annq42 said they are better and with their over built fiberglass they don't flex at all, unlike his friends Malibu which opened up like a beer can in a light chop. I just don't see how it could be true because he has a great relationship with his dealer and he told him so? Are Mastercrafts better than everything else or not? I'm really confused????
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       03-15-2013, 7:32 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by annq42 View Post
RB, if you read my post I try to make it clear that the circumstances were overly rare, however the thicker hull is created for just that reason, less flex and better support. Do I feel that MC is over build, maybe, do I feel that Bu's is under built, no. I cannot say either way, as I am neither a structural engineer or a hydro engineer, but the purpose was to stress that in the end size matters, but on the flip to also stress the support Bu gave my buddy when something did happen.

DBC the inner wall comment is the amount of flex that they have in them. Just like the video above shows, in the Bu I can see them vibrate and flex when pulling someone, or when playing music. Simple things like through bolts on the surf tabs and cleats make all the difference in situations. Are they needed everywhere like MC? No, but let me tell you I dont want to have my boat out for a month as I get re-gelled because I didnt have the through bolt. Also, you chose the lowest end MC dash to show off in the picture.

Any boat well taken care of will always do you right, and last a long time. Thats true for any aspect of it. I dont think anyone here will argue that case. But just like everything else, certain types of boats attract certain types of people. As example Audi owners as described by Top Gear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU6uvU1Ebnc. So does that mean MC owners dont take care of their boats? Maybe, but not all of us are like that.

Like I said, I buy MC not because I think they are the best quality boat, but rather because I think they are the prettiest, and I have a great relationship with my dealer. Both of those reasons are 100% opinionated, and truthfully I like that my friends have other boats so I can have a variety to ride behind. I like some wakes better than others, and I like the Xstar's. Ironically the next best wake I like is the Supra's (I have not ridden behind CC's G-series nor the Bu's pickle fork, so that might change.) Frankly, that is all that matters, you can have the best built boat in the world, but if you dont like the wake, then you bought the wrong boat.
How do you know it was pure hull flex that caused the windshield to move? Short answer, you don't.

Is the windshield bolted on with huge fasteners or made out of metal and materials you can lift the boat up with? I think not...
Old     (CarZin)      Join Date: Feb 2011       03-15-2013, 8:14 PM Reply   
Man, and I thought my fuel totalizer thread was contentious.
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-15-2013, 8:27 PM Reply   
If its not an MB or Tige, its crap. #realityaccordingtowakeworld
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       03-16-2013, 6:16 AM Reply   
In this case if its not MC its hull is crap. Every thread has different crap!!
Old    Manny (mrm2083)      Join Date: Nov 2005       03-16-2013, 10:54 AM Reply   
I think that Mastercrafts and Nautiques are built for a different purpose than Malibus. I rode on a VLX and to this day it is my favorite wake but I bought a Mastercraft X2 because I keep my boat on a lift in Slat water and have to ride through a choppy bay. From my experience it seems like Malibus are built more like a car while Mastercrafts and Nautiques have started building their boats more like center consoles. For example, here are some things that My X2 has that (I don't think but I could be wrong) Malibus (atleast in 06 when I bought my boat) didn't have:

- One peice fiberglass gelcoated floor. If your used to center consoles you know how great this is and for the salt water choppy environment, plastic/aluminum carpeted boats just don't cut it. If you trailer your boat to a fresh water lake this probably doesn't matter though.

- Anodized aluminum v. chrome: The aluminum in my mastercraft is still almost perfect after 7 years of salt water use. I guarentee that chrome would not hold up like that.

- Tinned wiring and sealed connectors: I'm not sure if malibu has this but my mastercraft does and it is a must.

- All boats are stainless: again not sure if malibu does this.

- One peice stringer system made in a mold: This is something that MC definitely copied from the center consoles and is great.

Ultimately if ilived on a lake and kept my boat out of the sun I would probably buy a malibu as I like the wake the best but if you need to use your boat in a more abusive environment (salt water, stored outside, shop, etc) then I think mC and Nautique are the way to go.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       03-16-2013, 2:29 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_defacto View Post
I was waiting for someone to imbed these 2 MC videos.... it seems like an appropriate time to bring these bad boys out again.
Sorry I didn't embed them, having issues...

http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=796695

It's funny how those videos are from three years ago, on the first two MCs to have prototype power towers on them, and nobody has been able replicate it since..... Oh right, it was because the actual production boats with PT have the appropriate braces.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-16-2013, 4:47 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
It's funny how those videos are from three years ago, on the first two MCs to have prototype power towers on them, and nobody has been able replicate it since..... Oh right, it was because the actual production boats with PT have the appropriate braces.
That is not why "it" is funny, the reason "it" is funny, and "it" being the "fact" that MC is an overbuilt and superiorly built vessel with superior materials that are overly thick or over-qualified for their purpose, is that the hull flexes so much with just a little bit of pushing... having nothing to do with the under-built-before-it-was-overbuilt power towers. Those look to be boat show boats that are usually for sale or already sold and used for display, not "prototype" anything.

Those videos were already discussed to death with all the excuses made and possible causes contemplated. No big deal, it's just fun to throw those videos out after "mastercraft is overbuilt" is claimed, same as the video of byerly behind a little outboard being thrown out after a ballast discussion is heated. Its all in good fun. Mastercrafts are fine boats.
Old    Preston (Bamabonners)      Join Date: Jul 2011       03-16-2013, 9:06 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrm2083 View Post
I think that Mastercrafts and Nautiques are built for a different purpose than Malibus. I rode on a VLX and to this day it is my favorite wake but I bought a Mastercraft X2 because I keep my boat on a lift in Slat water and have to ride through a choppy bay. From my experience it seems like Malibus are built more like a car while Mastercrafts and Nautiques have started building their boats more like center consoles. For example, here are some things that My X2 has that (I don't think but I could be wrong) Malibus (atleast in 06 when I bought my boat) didn't have:

- One peice fiberglass gelcoated floor. If your used to center consoles you know how great this is and for the salt water choppy environment, plastic/aluminum carpeted boats just don't cut it. If you trailer your boat to a fresh water lake this probably doesn't matter though.

- Anodized aluminum v. chrome: The aluminum in my mastercraft is still almost perfect after 7 years of salt water use. I guarentee that chrome would not hold up like that.

- Tinned wiring and sealed connectors: I'm not sure if malibu has this but my mastercraft does and it is a must.

- All boats are stainless: again not sure if malibu does this.

- One peice stringer system made in a mold: This is something that MC definitely copied from the center consoles and is great.

Ultimately if ilived on a lake and kept my boat out of the sun I would probably buy a malibu as I like the wake the best but if you need to use your boat in a more abusive environment (salt water, stored outside, shop, etc) then I think mC and Nautique are the way to go.
You have the MC sales pitch down perfectly. Bavo, Bravo! Zane would be very proud...

Last edited by Bamabonners; 03-16-2013 at 9:13 PM.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       03-16-2013, 9:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamabonners View Post
You have the MC sales pitch down perfectly. Bavo, Bravo! Zane would be very proud...
Malibu's sales pitch:

No plywood used in construction (anymore)
Not overbuilt
Hull harmonics so deaf people can feel the music
Better wakes (WW verified) than MC and CC
Carpet carpet carpet
Old    Preston (Bamabonners)      Join Date: Jul 2011       03-17-2013, 6:33 AM Reply   
This thread has run its course. I'm out.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       03-17-2013, 6:57 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamabonners View Post
This thread has run its course. I'm out.
The thread ran its course when you regurgitated your little sales pitch spiel.

Of course that's MC's sales pitch. Just like when when I walk into a lambo dealership, I'm sure the salesmen will tell me the car is fast. Then a guy like you would roll your eyes and say "oh there's the Lamborghini sales pitch again."

But of course, the sales pitch thing has already been mentioned, you have any thoughts of your own Bama?
Old    Ryan Bedford (annq42)      Join Date: Mar 2006       03-17-2013, 6:59 AM Reply   
I think I can answer the real question:

Bu makes a good boat.

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