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Old    Heath Chapman (hdchapman)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-03-2013, 12:21 PM Reply   
I currently have an 2008 Malibu VLX which I love but is a little cramped once you get 2 families on board so I would like to upgrade to a 23 footer. The new LSV's are well over a $100k which is completely ridiculous! The new MB 23 Widebody is about $40k less and I have always liked the fit and finish on MB's. Please share your thoughts and insights on this boat specifically the surf wake and recommended ballast and weight set ups. I am planning a test drive for later in the spring. Thanks all!
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-03-2013, 12:35 PM Reply   
My buddy is shopping 23' boats right now and these are the quotes he's getting...

LSV: $82K

23 TWB: $64K

Both boats have base 5.7L motor and have all the important options including a set of Exile tower speakers.

So the difference is more like $15k - $20k.
Old    MICAH HARPER (MICAH_HARPER)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-03-2013, 1:06 PM Reply   
I have a MB and love it..search the forum...lots of stuff on MB surf wakes
Old    Heath Chapman (hdchapman)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-03-2013, 1:08 PM Reply   
Thanks for the info. At the Seattle Boat show the LSV is $112k and the MB is $70k. I realize you can get them for less and they are not spec'd indentical but it is an idea of what they are asking.
Old    Boarder 42 (jhartt3)      Join Date: Jan 2012       02-03-2013, 1:34 PM Reply   
Cant wait for those 2012 21' tomcats to get on the resale market in 3 years. I will be poised to dump my hydrodyne and upgrade to my current dream boat
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-03-2013, 1:44 PM Reply   
$112k is definitely MSRP. Nobody pays that for an LSV. Not even close. The LSV at the Portland show had a similar MSRP but "Boat Show" price of $85k and it was full of all the options incl tower speakers. It was just missing metal flake and motor upgrade.

MB also inflates MSRP but not nearly as much.

Back to your question. The answer is that BOTH boats are surfing machines with extra weight.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-03-2013, 1:49 PM Reply   
Heath, when were you in the MB booth? I helped Mark at SWS last weekend and yesterday. Seattle Boat has crazy high prices. Hard to justify that a touch screen and surfgate are worth 40k.

The TWB 23 mark had at the show had the 350 motor and the options were underwater lights, trim plate, heater and metal flake I believe. I don't remember exactly but it was priced at right around 71k I think. That price is the bottom line price besides taxes and license I believe. There is no freight and prep added on top of that price. Also for the show Mark was including a 1k store credit that could be used for service, accessories or in the board shop.

I got to spend a day and a half talking with Mike Brendel. That was a very cool experience. He seems like a really great guy who is truly passionate about the industry. I am sure it was cool for people who own MB's and potential owner's to get a chance to talk to the owner of MB himself.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-03-2013, 1:51 PM Reply   
DBC, I wouldn't be surprised if their boat show price was about 112k once you add in 10-15k for trailer, freight and prep. I didn't go look at the tag but some were saying the 24MXZ was priced at 130k for the show an I am not sure that included the trailer or freight and prep.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       02-03-2013, 1:54 PM Reply   
Surf fresh will chime in with pics of the surf wake for the twb
Old    Don Christman (ktm525)      Join Date: Mar 2009       02-03-2013, 1:57 PM Reply   
Heath where are you located. We just purchased a fully loaded 2013 23Wb with the 410 hp motor. We now have 20 hours on it. I am loving it.I am in Northern California. Usually ride at The Delta out of Orwood. If you are near by I can take you out. Here is 2 pictures. We had 4 in boat and only stock ballast and plate was up. This is the first time we tried surfing. My fried had a Ocean Short board we used. I know it is not right but I am waiting for our local boat show next month to pu a board.
Attached Images
  
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-03-2013, 2:08 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
DBC, I wouldn't be surprised if their boat show price was about 112k once you add in 10-15k for trailer, freight and prep. I didn't go look at the tag but some were saying the 24MXZ was priced at 130k for the show an I am not sure that included the trailer or freight and prep.
Brett, if what you say is true, I find it utterly ridiculous. The prices I quoted above already include trailers, freight, and prep.

Since invoice pricing is the same for all dealers, I can only assume the Seattle dealers are making some PHAT margins.
Old     (Alleykat)      Join Date: Jan 2013       02-03-2013, 3:00 PM Reply   
I dont believe Seattle Boats qoutes with trailer as they try to push the rack storage system they have right on the lake. They are also accustom to much bigger buyers that live on the water, or very close...That's just there demographic.
Old    Jasin Kania (PureWakesurfing1)      Join Date: Sep 2012       02-03-2013, 3:01 PM Reply   
I rode behind one of Drew's (surffresh) demo boats, B52 Widebody. I never was an MB fan (no particular reason), but I was really impressed. The boat was really well built, and the surf wake was rad. Made a vid here you can check out the surf wake for yourself. This was only with one side of the floor ballast and I believe an 1180 gravity games sac 3/4 way full. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQB8zKxvROw

There's a video somewhere on the MB facebook page of the boat construction process too. Very cool.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-03-2013, 5:14 PM Reply   
I have a 2013 23 twb. I haven't got any good pics but I can tell you they make an incredible surf wave when weighted properly. the video above is very accurate on how large the wave is and the push is great
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       02-04-2013, 7:46 AM Reply   
For $15k more the LSV with surfgate is a no brainer. Go demo surfgate, its no gimmik. Can you can even compare the two boats for surfing with surfgate on the LSV? There are too many features surfgate offers that the MB can't compare to. Not to mention the LSV is a much more upgraded boat than the MB. Nothing against MB, nice boat, but in this comparison hands down the LSV takes the surfing trophy.

And as IXFE mentioned I have seen LSVs in low $80s nicely upgraded with trailer included. Highly recommend you go out in the LSV and demo surfgate, and then post up the pic of your new LSV
Old    Zach Thommen (edgeski1)      Join Date: Jan 2013       02-04-2013, 8:30 AM Reply   
the surf wake on the 23 WB is LOOOONG and powerful. Look on the front page of their website. That is a 23WB. I think if you delve further, you'll see another shot that is similar, but really brings to light just how good of a surf boat it is.
The interior has tons of room, really built nicely, and there is nothing more custom out there.
You won't be disappointed
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-04-2013, 8:46 AM Reply   
Travis, hands down the LSV takes the surfing trophy? You can't honestly say that with a straight face can you? The TWB 23 is a great surfing boat from what everybody on here has posted. From reports both boats will produce a good(for stock) stock wake but accomplish it differently. The MB has 1200 pounds of ballast on each side of the boat that can be switched quickly from one rider to another. The Malibu uses surfgate to accomplish a good stock wake and can be switched quicker. The question is why does it need to switch quicker than the MB? It isn't like the average surfer is going to be able to go from one side to the other while moving.

As for upgraded surf wake I would venture a guess the MB can create a better wake with less additional weight. I haven't heard or seen any reports yet that the wake with the surfgate gets really amazing when you start loading down the boat. Personally I think the surfgate is awesome for most users who are weekend warrior surfers. The MB is very close in this aspect to the Malibu. The only difference is when switching riders you have to wait 1 minute for the ballast on the other side to fill. One minute is less then the time it takes one rider to get up out of the water and in the boat and get the new rider in the water.

At a 15k difference it would make the decision a lot harder than the 40k difference in Seattle. I am still not sure I would pay the addition 15k though. I really like the simpliicity of the MB. Some comparisons:

Dash/gauges/switches-the malibu has not 1 but 2 LCD screens at 2000-3000 dollars a screen(that is a guess). You could replace all the gauges and rocker switches in the MB probably 5 times over for that price.
Ballast-The Malibu has 4 tanks that use either 4 or 8 pumps, lots of hose and connections plus a power wedge and surfgate. Compare that to the MB which has 2 ballast tanks and 2 motors that run waste gates. If you want you can get the MB with a single trim tab. That is one thing to fail on the back of the boat compared to 3.
After that there is a lot that is similar in these 2 boats. Both have similar layouts with smaller bows and huge cockpits with a simple wrap around seating. Both use very high quality materials with good looking schemes. Both are very well built boats. The towers are pretty much a wash now that MB has gone to a 2 point tower although the racks on the MB allow for 2 wakeboards and a surboard per side. Rough water ride will be better in the MB due to the deep V all the way to the transom and especially if you get the trim plate to keep the bow down. I would venture a guess the Malibu probably has a more versatile and better beginner wake although that is just a guess based on hull shapes. Storage is probably pretty close but I wouldn't be surprised if the MB had more. MB did a really good job with the storage areas and using all the space. Both have removable carpet although MB's is with magnets vs snaps and if I am not mistaken the Malibu isn't a full liner, it is just a fiberglass floor piece set on top of the layed in floor. The malibu is probably a little comfier as I think the seats are deeper front to back and taller both in the back rest area and the cushion to the floor.

Now this is just my opinion but because of the simiplicity and quality(both boats are very high quality boats) of the MB there will be a lot less problems and things to go wrong if you plan on keeping the boat for years to come. IF you are planning on flipping the boat every few years it might not matter. I can't imagine the problems these boats with screens and all these fancy systems are going to have when they are 10+ years old. They might become throw away 100k wake boats. At least I know if one of the gauges in the MB goes out 10 years down the road I can just buy another gauge of the same size and stick it in there. Boats aren't on the level of cars where they have parts available for years and years. It seems to me most boat manufacturers quit carrying parts when the boat becomes 7-10 years old.

Last edited by polarbill; 02-04-2013 at 8:50 AM.
Old    Jasin Kania (PureWakesurfing1)      Join Date: Sep 2012       02-04-2013, 8:58 AM Reply   
^^^^^^^Word.

I can't imagine anyone who's surfed behind a WB23 say the surf wake is better on a LSV.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-04-2013, 9:26 AM Reply   
Brett that's sortof true about the guages... but the tach is integrated with the trim tab (and fuel?) indicator on the MB. So it'd take a little bit of work to source something that would be a direct replacement.

And as much as I agree about the electronics, Malibu has been using a couple of different electronic screens since 06 (Maliview in 09?) and you don't really hear about many problems with them. I think you are right that as they crap out in 10-15 years that could be a problem. Or maybe not.

To the OP, I'd have to think it might be worth it to drive to CA for the boat if the price difference is over $10K? How can the seattle dealers get away with charging $70K, if a couple hours south in portland they are $64K? My bet is the Sacto boat show pricing will be right around $60K. I know there's freight to get the boats up there, but $10K a boat? yowza.

One thing I can speak to as a twb 23 owner is that the wake is very surfable with just factory ballast. Goofy is a bit better than regular with just factory balast, but either is still surfable, even with just 500 or so worth of people in the boat.

That's not what our friends with a 2010 LSV (same as current hull) have reported -- they need extra weight to surf. And that's also what I've read about the surfgate boats (that they still need extra weight). If you are going for the most-mac-in-est wave, and will be sacking out either way, probably not a concern, but if you might consider quickly shifting between a regular surf set, a wakeboard set, and then a goofy surf set, IMHO the MB is a better fit because it does reconfigure a bit more quickly. Yes, a surfgate boat that has been configured to surf will have "balanced" balast, and should still throw a good wakeboard wake, but that's going to be with extra weight over stock, which not everybody rides on a wakeboard.

They are all compromises. Surfgate makes those compromises a lot better than the pre-surfgate boats for sure, and truth be told I would've given a surfgate book a nice long look had it been available a couple of years ago.

In the end it comes down to demo demo demo!
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-04-2013, 9:33 AM Reply   
Shawn, good info. I am not sure MB is suppose to sell out of their area but I am assuming the Seattle dealer would at least like the chance to match or come close in an apple's to apple's comparison. If DBC's buddy is getting quoted at 64k including freight and prep, nice tower speakers, etc... that is a great deal. The 23 that SWS had at the show had the the following upgrades: Heater, transom lights, trim plate and metal flake. I am guessing that is about 2000-3000 worth of upgrades over the base boat. Also, SWS was offering a grand in store credit. If you take away the options and store credit the price is looking more like 67 or 68k. IF the Portland dealer adds ~2000 in freight and prep on top of that 64k they are pretty similarly priced.
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       02-04-2013, 12:08 PM Reply   
I will direct this towards Brett... first off, this is just my opinion, as is everyone else who comments on this thread...

Second, have you been out in an LSV with surfgate yet? I demo'd one a couple weeks ago, we had the factory quad ballast, power wedge and (2) 400 lb bags in both lockers. With Malibu plug and play this makes filling the bags pretty simple. The wake was pretty amazing, and we only had three people in the boat. I purposely had people sit in the bow, move around and it literally had no effect on the wake. I was a little skeptical about surfgate until I actually was able to witness it first hand. The wake only gets better with 750's in the locker... my dealer only had 400's... and there are so many more benefits to surfgate that just the wake quality...

- You drive the boat level
- No need to cram everyone in the corner or one side of the boat
- You can switch goofy and regular riders immediately
- You can switch goofy to regular while actually surfing
- Boat is much easier to drive while surfing, no bow rise
-Go from wakeboarding to surfing immediately

Surfgate is integrated into the Malibu Touch. It will automatically retract the gates if surfer falls and engage the gate when speeds are between 7-14mph. Malibu did a very good job on this system. When driving you definitely will feel the gate deploy and once its deployed the boat drives great, no crabwalking it pretty effortless.

For electronics, you either love or hate them. As Shawn mentioned they have been in Malibu boats since 2006, you rarely hear about any catastrophic failures, not that it cant happen but it seems to rarely occur. Considering how many boats Malibu sells every year they have a pretty good tract record of electronic success. This is just my opinion, really as in all these forums people need to go out and test drive the boats they are interested in. Opinions from people on this site are just opinions, to spend the kind of money these boats cost these days anyone would be foolish not to go out and spend ample amount of time in each boat they are interested in purchasing. And of course the LSV wakeboard wake is no slaker either, especially at lower speeds which it cleans up really nicely.

For me, the MB is a nice boat, but the Malibu definitely has a different feel for me. I like the very comfortable lounge feel of the LSV, the G3 tower look and functionality, lines of the Malibu. I like the Malibu Touch, Maliview, power wedge, it is what seperates the two boats for me. The OP may or may not care for more bells and whistles, some dont and some do. I have tried to like the new MB tower, for me, it has an awkward look to it, its better than there last tower but imo still needs a little r&d.

So for me, the $15-20k price difference for the LSV would be worth it.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-04-2013, 1:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fman View Post
I will direct this towards Brett... first off, this is just my opinion, as is everyone else who comments on this thread...

Second, have you been out in an LSV with surfgate yet? I demo'd one a couple weeks ago, we had the factory quad ballast, power wedge and (2) 400 lb bags in both lockers. With Malibu plug and play this makes filling the bags pretty simple. The wake was pretty amazing, and we only had three people in the boat. I purposely had people sit in the bow, move around and it literally had no effect on the wake. I was a little skeptical about surfgate until I actually was able to witness it first hand. The wake only gets better with 750's in the locker... my dealer only had 400's... and there are so many more benefits to surfgate that just the wake quality...

- You drive the boat level
- No need to cram everyone in the corner or one side of the boat
- You can switch goofy and regular riders immediately
- You can switch goofy to regular while actually surfing
- Boat is much easier to drive while surfing, no bow rise
-Go from wakeboarding to surfing immediately

Surfgate is integrated into the Malibu Touch. It will automatically retract the gates if surfer falls and engage the gate when speeds are between 7-14mph. Malibu did a very good job on this system. When driving you definitely will feel the gate deploy and once its deployed the boat drives great, no crabwalking it pretty effortless.

For electronics, you either love or hate them. As Shawn mentioned they have been in Malibu boats since 2006, you rarely hear about any catastrophic failures, not that it cant happen but it seems to rarely occur. Considering how many boats Malibu sells every year they have a pretty good tract record of electronic success. This is just my opinion, really as in all these forums people need to go out and test drive the boats they are interested in. Opinions from people on this site are just opinions, to spend the kind of money these boats cost these days anyone would be foolish not to go out and spend ample amount of time in each boat they are interested in purchasing. And of course the LSV wakeboard wake is no slaker either, especially at lower speeds which it cleans up really nicely.

For me, the MB is a nice boat, but the Malibu definitely has a different feel for me. I like the very comfortable lounge feel of the LSV, the G3 tower look and functionality, lines of the Malibu. I like the Malibu Touch, Maliview, power wedge, it is what seperates the two boats for me. The OP may or may not care for more bells and whistles, some dont and some do. I have tried to like the new MB tower, for me, it has an awkward look to it, its better than there last tower but imo still needs a little r&d.

So for me, the $15-20k price difference for the LSV would be worth it.

That is fair, and like I said at 15-20k difference it would be a tough choice as the malibu does have a fair amount of added technology. The problem is the price difference to the OP is about 40k which is an insane premium to pay for those pieces of technology. I also thought the line that "hands down the malibu is the better surf boat" was off base.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       02-04-2013, 3:41 PM Reply   
first off, yes I am bias, yes I am a dealer, and yes I'm a wakesurf snob, I'm not small and I have to have a great wake to push me. about the MB 23V, it's the simplest surf boat period, I read tons of post on this boat and that one, where the owner is placing lead here, pop sacks there, etc. to get it "dialed". The only thing needed with the 23 MB is the plate. We average about 2400 in total ballast weight plus crew and everything is automated, hidden, and plumbed in, the big bonus IMO is that you can switch sides in about 5 min and both sides are great. I also like the idea that you can have a competition level surf boat / wave and a decent truck for the same price of some of the other boats alone. Happy shopping, boat show season is here !!!
Attached Images
 
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-04-2013, 3:44 PM Reply   
Brett... have you ever surfed either boat? Just curious, because your post is filled phrases that make it sound like you have no first hand experience with either....

  • "from what everybody on here has posted..."
  • "from reports..."
  • "I would venture a guess..."
  • "I haven't heard or seen any reports yet..."
  • "Personally I think..."
  • "I wouldn't be surprised if..."
  • "if I am not mistaken..."
  • "I can't imagine..."
  • "They might become..."
  • "It seems to me..."


I'm not even sure how it's relevant since the OP asked about MB and only MB. The only reason I chimed in on the pricing was to clear up an apparent misconception about the price delta. Brett, even on this point you seem to be guessing as to Malibu's pricing since you said that you didn't go see for yourself.

Since I actually have surfed behind all three boats (MB and Malibus w/ and w/out Surf Gate), I will reiterate that all three are great surfing machines. If the OP is really evaluating each boat, then I'd say it depends on which implementation he wants... a great surf wave made by heavily leaning the boat from one side to the other, or a great surf wave that keeps the boat flat. Also, the notion that an MB can switch sides quickly is only true with stock ballast. The minute you add extra bags, that feature is gone. With Surfgate it doesn't matter how much weight you add, the switch happens in 1 second. BTW, I didn't just read this in a brochure or on a forum, I have first hand experience with both.

Here are some references for the OP.

Links to posts by "somepeteguy" on the MBboatowners forum. He by far has the best 23TWB from a surf perspective. It is heavily weighted with a custom installed plug-n-play system. Pete's wave is awesome! So is Drew's up above ^^^

http://www.mbboatowners.com/index.ph...624&Itemid=179

http://www.mbboatowners.com/index.ph...emid=179#11873

http://www.mbboatowners.com/index.ph...emid=179#11105

http://www.mbboatowners.com/index.ph...temid=179#8634

http://www.mbboatowners.com/index.ph...temid=179#6311

http://www.mbboatowners.com/index.ph...495&Itemid=179


And even though you didn't ask for it, there has been some discussion saying that the LSV with Surf Gate was only good for "weekend warriors." Hopefully this video dispels that notion. Massive, clean wave.

(LSV Surfgate with Plug-n-Play bags in the lockers... skip ahead to 0:34 thru 1:40)

2013 Mabliu Surfgate Wakesurfing from Gerry Oppliger on Vimeo.



I don't care what boat you buy. I just like to chime in when I see misinformation. The Malibu costs more, yes. But not $40K more. Not even $20K more. Surfgate is a game changer for the sport. Weekend warriors... I LOL'd at that one. And finally, if you buy an MB you will happy. Great boats. I've had both. Just know the trade-offs. That's all...

Last edited by ixfe; 02-04-2013 at 3:52 PM.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-04-2013, 4:12 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
If the OP is really evaluating each boat, then I'd say it depends on which implementation he wants... a great surf wave made by heavily leaning the boat from one side to the other, or a great surf wave that keeps the boat flat. Also, the notion that an MB can switch sides quickly is only true with stock ballast. The minute you add extra bags, that feature is gone.
A couple of points about the 23's surf wake:

it doesn't take "that much" *lean* to get the wave good. As is pointed out in somepeteguy's threads you referenced, it's more about sinking the boat than about a crazy lean. Pete runs both factory ballast tanks full, plus sacks on the surf side. I've never tried to build our wave as big as humanly possible, but even with an extra 900 lbs in sacks and full factory ballast I've never felt that the boat is remotely close to "the limit," unlike our old vride, which got scary with just a 750 in the locker.

I haven't tried it, but I've read here of wakeworlder jdog running his sacks full on both sides and using the factory ballast to switch sides. So it *may* in fact be possible to still switch sides quickly (subject to the same issue you'll see with the 'bu of filling sacks first). Not as quickly as surfgate, of course, but gravity ballast fast, which is much better than most. Certainly as fast as you can switch riders.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-04-2013, 4:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
Brett... have you ever surfed either boat? Just curious, because your post is filled phrases that make it sound like you have no first hand experience with either....

  • "from what everybody on here has posted..."
  • "from reports..."
  • "I would venture a guess..."
  • "I haven't heard or seen any reports yet..."
  • "Personally I think..."
  • "I wouldn't be surprised if..."
  • "if I am not mistaken..."
  • "I can't imagine..."
  • "They might become..."
  • "It seems to me..."


I'm not even sure how it's relevant since the OP asked about MB and only MB. The only reason I chimed in on the pricing was to clear up an apparent misconception about the price delta. Brett, even on this point you seem to be guessing as to Malibu's pricing since you said that you didn't go see for yourself.

Since I actually have surfed behind all three boats (MB and Malibus w/ and w/out Surf Gate), I will reiterate that all three are great surfing machines. If the OP is really evaluating each boat, then I'd say it depends on which implementation he wants... a great surf wave made by heavily leaning the boat from one side to the other, or a great surf wave that keeps the boat flat. Also, the notion that an MB can switch sides quickly is only true with stock ballast. The minute you add extra bags, that feature is gone. With Surfgate it doesn't matter how much weight you add, the switch happens in 1 second. BTW, I didn't just read this in a brochure or on a forum, I have first hand experience with both.

Here are some references for the OP.

Links to posts by "somepeteguy" on the MBboatowners forum. He by far has the best 23TWB from a surf perspective. It is heavily weighted with a custom installed plug-n-play system. Pete's wave is awesome! So is Drew's up above ^^^

http://www.mbboatowners.com/index.ph...624&Itemid=179

http://www.mbboatowners.com/index.ph...emid=179#11873

http://www.mbboatowners.com/index.ph...emid=179#11105

http://www.mbboatowners.com/index.ph...temid=179#8634

http://www.mbboatowners.com/index.ph...temid=179#6311

http://www.mbboatowners.com/index.ph...495&Itemid=179


And even though you didn't ask for it, there has been some discussion saying that the LSV with Surf Gate was only good for "weekend warriors." Hopefully this video dispels that notion. Massive, clean wave.

(LSV Surfgate with Plug-n-Play bags in the lockers... skip ahead to 0:34 thru 1:40)

2013 Mabliu Surfgate Wakesurfing from Gerry Oppliger on Vimeo.



I don't care what boat you buy. I just like to chime in when I see misinformation. The Malibu costs more, yes. But not $40K more. Not even $20K more. Surfgate is a game changer for the sport. Weekend warriors... I LOL'd at that one. And finally, if you buy an MB you will happy. Great boats. I've had both. Just know the trade-offs. That's all...
No I have not, my post was more to call out fman on his claim that hands down the LSV is a better surf boat. I don't need to have ridden either to know that isn't true and is an over the top statement. My guess is both boats stock are probably awesome surf boats for 95% of the people who buy wake boats. The only people who it matters to are wake/wave snobs and even with extra weight I am not sure one boat is better than the other.

Also, the price difference is not 15-20k in Seattle where the OP is from. The price difference is in the 30-40k range. Seattle Boat is a ridiculously high overhead dealership who is used to selling Cobalts to the uber rich on Lake Washington. those people don't care what it costs. They are trying to use the same or similar margins on Malibu's. Look, if they can get those margins great . I would sell them that high as well if the people in Seattle are too stupid to realize they are getting raped. I am not sure the OP has an option to buy out of the area as both MB and Malibu have agreements in place to try and keep them from doing so. The prices of the boats in Oregon, Cali or any other place than Seattle are irrelevant other than to see which boat is priced closer to their actual value.

Last edited by polarbill; 02-04-2013 at 4:28 PM.
Old     (WakeDirt)      Join Date: Jun 2011       02-04-2013, 4:25 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by surffresh View Post
first off, yes I am bias, yes I am a dealer, and yes I'm a wakesurf snob, I'm not small and I have to have a great wake to push me. about the MB 23V, it's the simplest surf boat period, I read tons of post on this boat and that one, where the owner is placing lead here, pop sacks there, etc. to get it "dialed". The only thing needed with the 23 MB is the plate. We average about 2400 in total ballast weight plus crew and everything is automated, hidden, and plumbed in, the big bonus IMO is that you can switch sides in about 5 min and both sides are great. I also like the idea that you can have a competition level surf boat / wave and a decent truck for the same price of some of the other boats alone. Happy shopping, boat show season is here !!!
Ya that wake in the Expo vid def makes me want to upgrade!
Old    Jasin Kania (PureWakesurfing1)      Join Date: Sep 2012       02-04-2013, 7:23 PM Reply   
Yo WakeDirt, if you buy one mention my name maybe he'll cut us a deal and I can upgrade my ride too. LOL.
Old     (WakeDirt)      Join Date: Jun 2011       02-04-2013, 9:33 PM Reply   
So Carolina would be a loooong tow to trade in my boat ha ha
Old    Preston (Bamabonners)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-05-2013, 8:28 AM Reply   
I like the look of the MB and it has a great surf wave (from what I have seen and read, never been on one). I think they are a good boat with all the good stuff and none of the extra fluff that drives up prices. I looked at them when I sold my VLX. I like the magnetic carpet and heavy vinyl. It is also a very room boat - lots of interior space. I don't like the styling of some of the interior pieces or the dash. I also think that their X logo looks very out dated. Towers look good from the side, but I don't like the square corners.

My only concern with MB around here is the dealer network. We have one dealer in the area that started carrying MB last year. they are a great dealer, but they are about 1 and 1/2 hours away from me. Malibu has 3 dealers within the same distance from me.

LSV in this area of the country (Alabama) are going for low - mid 80s depending on options (upper 80s with engine upgrades). I think our MB dealer was selling some good looking MB 23 in the low to mid 60 range, if I remember correctly.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-05-2013, 8:44 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamabonners View Post
I like the look of the MB and it has a great surf wave (from what I have seen and read, never been on one). I think they are a good boat with all the good stuff and none of the extra fluff that drives up prices. I looked at them when I sold my VLX. I like the magnetic carpet and heavy vinyl. It is also a very room boat - lots of interior space. I don't like the styling of some of the interior pieces or the dash. I also think that their X logo looks very out dated. Towers look good from the side, but I don't like the square corners.

My only concern with MB around here is the dealer network. We have one dealer in the area that started carrying MB last year. they are a great dealer, but they are about 1 and 1/2 hours away from me. Malibu has 3 dealers within the same distance from me.

LSV in this area of the country (Alabama) are going for low - mid 80s depending on options (upper 80s with engine upgrades). I think our MB dealer was selling some good looking MB 23 in the low to mid 60 range, if I remember correctly.
Since you have looked at both do you think the 20k extra for a 23LSV is worth it? By the way you don't have to get the X graphic on the 23. You can get the classic scheme.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-05-2013, 9:10 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
No I have not, my post was more to call out fman on his claim that hands down the LSV is a better surf boat. I don't need to have ridden either to know that isn't true and is an over the top statement. My guess is both boats stock are probably awesome surf boats for 95% of the people who buy wake boats. The only people who it matters to are wake/wave snobs and even with extra weight I am not sure one boat is better than the other.

Also, the price difference is not 15-20k in Seattle where the OP is from. The price difference is in the 30-40k range. Seattle Boat is a ridiculously high overhead dealership who is used to selling Cobalts to the uber rich on Lake Washington. those people don't care what it costs. They are trying to use the same or similar margins on Malibu's. Look, if they can get those margins great . I would sell them that high as well if the people in Seattle are too stupid to realize they are getting raped. I am not sure the OP has an option to buy out of the area as both MB and Malibu have agreements in place to try and keep them from doing so. The prices of the boats in Oregon, Cali or any other place than Seattle are irrelevant other than to see which boat is priced closer to their actual value.
Yes, Fman's statement is over the top. But no more silly than claiming the price difference is $30K - $40K. You yourself said that you didn't go look at Malibu pricing at the show. Do you really expect this forum to believe that Malibus sell for $20K - $25K higher in Seattle than anywhere else in the country?

Listen, I'm not trying to have an argument here.... really don't want that. I'm sincerely trying to dispell misinformation and help the OP. As a former MB owner, I know the talking points... "MB uses same vinyl for $30k less, blah blah blah..." ****, I've probably been guilty of it in the past. But shopping and buying a different boat brand helped open my eyes to the fact that the price difference in the real world (i.e. not on the interweb) is nowhere near as big as advertised. I have tried to demonstrate that in the thread with actual pricing from my region, and others have chimed in with similar information from different regions. If the OP is interested, he should go and get a real quote as a real buyer (comps in hand). Let's leave it at that.

Mind you, I think the MB is a great boat and a great value. I'd own one again in a heartbeat. But please, stop with the misinformation. Stop guessing what Malibus cost, guessing who has the best wave, etc.

If you really want to help the OP, how about you answer his original question. Post some pics, links, or vids of MB surf waves (like I did).
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-05-2013, 9:15 AM Reply   
Brett, whether it's "worth it" or not is really in the eye of the beholder. That's like wondering whether an Escalade is "worth it" vs a Tahoe. The LSV definitely has more content than the MB in electronics, more complicated/expensive ballast system (but not necessarily "better"), better fit and finish (there, I said it!), nicer tower, etc. So you aren't *only* paying for the Malibu name, though I do think that's a component of the price.

Performance wise, 73' back with the handle in your hand or surfing at 11.5, both boats are going to give a pretty similar experience. It's in the boat where the differences will be noted. Just like how some will prefer the escalade's appointments over a more spartan tahoe, many will prefer the LSV over the TWB 23. And vice versa.

Both are really good boats for their intended niche.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-05-2013, 9:39 AM Reply   
DBC, I am not sure if you noticed but the OP even said the boats had a 40k difference and he is the one who has looked at both prices. What I am trying to say is that the seattle malibu dealer is trying to sell his boats at outrageous margins. They have 2 waterfront sales and service locations with one on Lake Union in Seattle and one on Lake Washington in Bellevue. They have multiple dry docks as well that they either own or lease. They have plans to build a new facility at their Bellevue location. They are selling to the richest of the rich and provide some pretty unique services for their customers that live on lake Washington or keep their boat on lake union.

So overall my only points are that:

1) both boats will surf well, especially stock compared to other boats stock.
2) as a reply to fman-the Malibu is not hands down the winner of the surfing trophy.
3) There isn't enough "extra" in or on the Malibu to warrant the extra 40k cost in Seattle.
4) both are really nice boats and at a 15-20k difference it would be a really tough decision and I bet the OP would say the same.
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       02-05-2013, 9:56 AM Reply   
Looks like a pretty clear cut instance of back tracking.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-05-2013, 10:05 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post

So overall my only points are that:

1) both boats will surf well, especially stock compared to other boats stock.
With stock ballast from my own personal experience with the twb23 and what I've read about the LSV, I think the twb23 is going to surf better. Is the LSV even surfable without extra weight?
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       02-05-2013, 10:19 AM Reply   
I will stick to my comment earlier with saying the LSV is a better surf boat than the MB.

Lets just assume both wakes are equal.

The surfgate elements adds features the MB cant deliver on, that is the reasoning for a judgement call on my part for giving the upper edge to the LSV. It also comes with a price increase, which may not be worth it to some buyers. Not that either boat will not be a good buy for someone, the LSV with surfgate is currently cutting edge technology that is currently leading the industry (along with the nautique surf system).

I dont know how you can honestly say both boats are equally as good for surfing when one has features the other cant perform. Show me a video of a surfer switching sides while surfing with the MB and I will retract my statement. Show me the MB completely level, nobody jammed into one side of the boat, show me someone with the MB switching riders going from goofy surfer, to regular surfer, back to goofy surfer immediately with no delays. Not all goofy riders first, then we will switch sides to all regular riders.

Show me all of these items I just listed with the MB and I would change my mind instantly.

Last edited by fman; 02-05-2013 at 10:24 AM.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       02-05-2013, 10:40 AM Reply   
MB's switch 900lbs of side ballast in 90 seconds, stock to stock its not much different. Can the lsv fill and drop that kind of weight in 90 seconds? Does the LSV even have that kind of weight? either way youre filling sacs, what difference is it if i fill/drain them all at once or one at a time?

hell id take the 15k, in this instance 40k, i save on an MB and mount some lencos vertically if i wanted the "cutting edge technology". if its worth it to you to do transfers as you surf, spend the cash. no need to discredit the MB's surf wave
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-05-2013, 10:47 AM Reply   
Here are some shots I took at the shoot - some are on the website and/or the catalog.
Attached Images
     
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       02-05-2013, 10:51 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
With stock ballast from my own personal experience with the twb23 and what I've read about the LSV, I think the twb23 is going to surf better. Is the LSV even surfable without extra weight?
During the demo we ran quad ballast with wedge only and its surfable but definitely not as good as with extra bags in the rear compartments.
Old    Heath Chapman (hdchapman)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-05-2013, 11:12 AM Reply   
Thanks all for your replies. Everyone makes some great points and I appreciate the insight and debate.

I have demo'd a 2013 LSV with the Surfgate and it was real slick and easy. The wake was nice but not great with stock ballast full, 400 lb bag and 6 adults in the boat, dealer even said you still need to add weight to get it big and dialed in. I have not demo'd the MB yet but plan to before I make a decison. The reason for my original post was I wanted to get an idea of the surf wave and set up behind the MB since I have never surfed behind one.

Regarding price, I am not quite ready to buy so I haven't gotten down to the nitty gritty price negotiations yet. The pricing I referenced was what they had posted at the Seattle Boat show, LSV $112k and TWB $70k for very similarly equipped boats. We all know there is some room to move but it gives you an idea. If the price difference truly ends up being 10-15k then I agree the Malibu is probably the best bet, but if it closer to 30-40k then I am sorry that is very hard to justify IMO. Brett is right about Seattle Boats, since they took over Malibu the price for their boats jumped about 20k overnight.

I know they are both good boats and we are all very fortunate to buy them and have great debates like this. Not that anyone cares but I will keep you posted in the months to come.

On another note, they was wanted $178k for an X-Star at the Seattle Boat show. Holy $&@#, who is buying these things
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-05-2013, 11:28 AM Reply   
Fman

-- wake to wake transfers are the exclusive domain of malibu, nautique, and those who invest in a system to cross plumb their ballast (ragboy posted vid of doing one in their tige earlier this fall).

-- instant changes are the exclusive domain of malibu and nautique.

-- mb can definitely switch sides as fast as you switch riders ... that was the #1 reason for us going with MB. So there's a "delay" in waiting for the gravity ballast to fill, but it's no longer than the fastest rider change. Aside from the inability to do transfers while riding, the speed to change sides advantage is a distinction without a difference IMHO.

-- you are absolutely right that an MB will require the traditional "sit on this side" surf setup. That is a very good differentiation between the two boats. As a practical matter, that will make a small boat feel much bigger while surfing, and really pits the "surf comfort" of a 23' MB against a vlx, not an LSV. For regular surfers, the 23' MB always feels big enough, but with a crew of 8 or more the goofy side gets cramped.
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       02-05-2013, 11:41 AM Reply   
I have also been told Seattle's prices are also higher because of us Canadians coming down and buying boats. Boats north of the boarder are already high priced so between the few dealers that are up here in the Vancouver area and Washington have stronghold in the local market. It may be more expensive than other US dealers but it's still cheaper then most wake boats sold north of the 49.
Old    Preston (Bamabonners)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-05-2013, 12:31 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
Since you have looked at both do you think the 20k extra for a 23LSV is worth it? By the way you don't have to get the X graphic on the 23. You can get the classic scheme.
Yes, I do.

For one, my family likes the looks and the style of the Malibu better (subjective, but you have to like looking at it)

i love the malivue. that was a huge selling point to me. When my wife or other people on my boat need to drive, they can operate it easily. We can just hit the preset, then arm the auto pull up feature. All the driver has to do is hit the throttle and not run into anything.

I love the power wedge. i actually do use it often and I like the fact that it is auto-magically controlled based on my speed and direction.

I think the G3 tower is the best on the market. Period.

The wake is clean, even at low speeds. this is important for us because we always have kids and beginners on our boat.

I am thankful for the large dealer network. I know that if I am on vacation with my boat and something breaks that I can contact local dealer for help.

All of these, plus some other subjective items, make it worth it to me and my family.

Last edited by Bamabonners; 02-05-2013 at 12:35 PM.
Old    Zach Thommen (edgeski1)      Join Date: Jan 2013       02-05-2013, 2:00 PM Reply   
as far as the tower goes. The gentleman who designed the G3 tower, is now building towers for MB. two key advantages: hand knobs out the top, no more dropping them in the lake, and no more cross threading, The other cool thing is the retention pins that hold the tower up with the knobs removed. You simply give the tower a tug and it folds.
Both Malibu and MB towers are a cut above the rest
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-05-2013, 3:06 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff_mn View Post
Looks like a pretty clear cut instance of back tracking.
I am assuming this is directed at me. What exactly did I back track on?
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-05-2013, 4:35 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
DBC, I am not sure if you noticed but the OP even said the boats had a 40k difference and he is the one who has looked at both prices. What I am trying to say is that the seattle malibu dealer is trying to sell his boats at outrageous margins. They have 2 waterfront sales and service locations with one on Lake Union in Seattle and one on Lake Washington in Bellevue. They have multiple dry docks as well that they either own or lease. They have plans to build a new facility at their Bellevue location. They are selling to the richest of the rich and provide some pretty unique services for their customers that live on lake Washington or keep their boat on lake union.

So overall my only points are that:

1) both boats will surf well, especially stock compared to other boats stock.
2) as a reply to fman-the Malibu is not hands down the winner of the surfing trophy.
3) There isn't enough "extra" in or on the Malibu to warrant the extra 40k cost in Seattle.
4) both are really nice boats and at a 15-20k difference it would be a really tough decision and I bet the OP would say the same.
Here's what I saw... the OP referenced an LSV for over $100K. I know Malibu MSRP's really well. And anything over $100k for an LSV is probably MSRP. Lots of dealers list boats at MSRP at the show (i.e. no "boat show" pricing visible).

All I'm saying is that I have a hard time believing that the dealer up there is getting MSRP for their Malibus. So my advice to the OP is to get a real quote.

Brett... are you an official boat salesman now?
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-05-2013, 4:36 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcrider View Post
I have also been told Seattle's prices are also higher because of us Canadians coming down and buying boats. Boats north of the boarder are already high priced so between the few dealers that are up here in the Vancouver area and Washington have stronghold in the local market. It may be more expensive than other US dealers but it's still cheaper then most wake boats sold north of the 49.
Canadians buy boats out of territory?? Oh, the humanity!!
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-05-2013, 5:14 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
Here's what I saw... the OP referenced an LSV for over $100K. I know Malibu MSRP's really well. And anything over $100k for an LSV is probably MSRP. Lots of dealers list boats at MSRP at the show (i.e. no "boat show" pricing visible).

All I'm saying is that I have a hard time believing that the dealer up there is getting MSRP for their Malibus. So my advice to the OP is to get a real quote.

Brett... are you an official boat salesman now?
No, I was just helping out SWS at the show.
Old    MICAH HARPER (MICAH_HARPER)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-05-2013, 5:46 PM Reply   
guys i think it is obviouse that...if you own a Malibu you think malibu is better and if you own a MB you think MB is better...lol...i cant speak for the Malibu because i have never been behind one....but im sure they are built with quality and live up to thier hype as i know that MB does also
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       02-05-2013, 8:48 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
Fman

-- wake to wake transfers are the exclusive domain of malibu, nautique, and those who invest in a system to cross plumb their ballast (ragboy posted vid of doing one in their tige earlier this fall).

-- instant changes are the exclusive domain of malibu and nautique.

-- mb can definitely switch sides as fast as you switch riders ... that was the #1 reason for us going with MB. So there's a "delay" in waiting for the gravity ballast to fill, but it's no longer than the fastest rider change. Aside from the inability to do transfers while riding, the speed to change sides advantage is a distinction without a difference IMHO.

-- you are absolutely right that an MB will require the traditional "sit on this side" surf setup. That is a very good differentiation between the two boats. As a practical matter, that will make a small boat feel much bigger while surfing, and really pits the "surf comfort" of a 23' MB against a vlx, not an LSV. For regular surfers, the 23' MB always feels big enough, but with a crew of 8 or more the goofy side gets cramped.
LOL, I just really dont know what to say at this point...

Shawn, do you realize how the boat is weighted for surfgate? Its equal on both sides. Once your hard tanks and bags are filled switching from a goofy to regular rider requires no ballast movement at all, zero. As fast as someone gets out of the water, the other rider can be getting in on the opposite side. The surfgate is what dictates which side of the boat will be generating the wake.

According to your post you are saying MB does this as well? my bad, I guess I did not realize this. I did not realize MB weighted the boat equally like the surfgate Malibu. I thought on the MB when a goofy rider comes out and a regular wants to go you actually had to drive the boat for a minute, empty the ballast, stop and refill the other side. And this does not take into account for any bags that need to be weight transfered. I did not realize you can instantly switch from a goofy to regular surfer without changing any ballast tanks or bags. Is this what you are saying?

How you can do wake to wake transfers without some type of gate to instantly switch the wake?

LOL again, at this point I guess I am reaching the thread burn out... whatever works for everyone, I hope the OP ends up with something he is happy with. At the end of the day thats all that matters. And Shawn, you like your MB and thats great.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-05-2013, 9:06 PM Reply   
Travis, you empty the non-surf side as you go. There's no stop, fill, drive around for a minute. You stop, open both tanks, close the tank on the side you are surfing and go. It fills that fast. As you go the non-surf side drains, about as fast as it takes for the wave to shape up, then close that tank. Really. It's not some plot to undermine surfgate, that's how it works and how we've used it for two years. That's actually the very reason we bought this boat.

If you want to sack it out, as is pointed out in the jdog post above, you can sack both sides (MB likes some weight on the non-surf side) and just use the tanks to switch sides.

So yes, that's what I'm saying.

As far as wake-to-wake transfers, I've never tried. You'll have to ask ragboy how he did this in his tige (which has neither gravity fed ballast nor surfgate):


Last edited by shawndoggy; 02-05-2013 at 9:13 PM.
Old    Tarek Richey (tarek)      Join Date: Jun 2011       02-25-2013, 9:00 AM Reply   
The prices of boats are killing watersports.

MB has saved our business! We have lost lines like Centurion and Nautique because the prices of boats keep going up. In our market, we cant be flooring these expensive boats because people aren't buying them here.

We sell the 23ft MB B52 for about $68k and for the value, the MB's are killing it for us. We are selling more new boats again, and whats crazy, is our customers who have the money to spend on Mastercraft, Malibu, Nautique etc are buying MB's.

Dont get me wrong, the better half of my wakeboard career was spent on an X-2 and X-Star and I love the Mastercraft line, but for the money, I think MB is doing things right!

No expensive marketing, few pro riders, full time production, low prices.. these guys are cutting costs, making less money, but are selling boats, staying busy, and providing an affordable kick ass boat!

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