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Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       02-19-2013, 11:51 AM Reply   
Thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVdda...ature=youtu.be
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       02-19-2013, 12:15 PM Reply   
Embed?

Old    Zach Thommen (edgeski1)      Join Date: Jan 2013       02-19-2013, 12:15 PM Reply   
the tabs seem to clean it up, for sure. Not a huge wave otherwise
Old     (will5150)      Join Date: Oct 2002       02-19-2013, 12:37 PM Reply   
That's a pretty freakin' BIG wave for stock ballast in a 21 foot boat dude. How much weight do you put in your boat to surf? The x-10 only has like 1000 in ballast total.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-19-2013, 12:45 PM Reply   
I'd be curious to see how the wake switches from side to side when the boat has some weight in it. Pretty neat how that works. Man, surfing's getting more and more popular.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       02-19-2013, 1:15 PM Reply   
No suprise, tabs change the yaw of the boat, same as surfgate. Doesn't look huge to me then again I don't surf a lot.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-19-2013, 1:24 PM Reply   
Surfgate works in a different manner than the mc tabs.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       02-19-2013, 1:28 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake View Post
Surfgate works in a different manner than the mc tabs.
Explain please, my engineering knowledge is limited.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-19-2013, 1:54 PM Reply   
It is my understanding that the MC surf tabs cause the hull to tip from one side to the other, which facilitates the creation of a wave in the same manner as adding weight to the surf side of the boat. Surfgate does not cause the boat to list to one side. Instead, it causes the water on the non-surf side of the boat to divert around a tab that extends about 30 degrees vertically from the transom. This diversion causes a delay before the water on the non-surf side crosses over the wake behind the boat. This results in a wave on the surf side. In other words, surfgate achieves the same result as listing the boat without listing the boat. MC's surf tabs cause the boat to list (at least that's my understanding as to how they work).
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-19-2013, 2:06 PM Reply   
What Chatt said... here are pics that help show what he's saying...



Old    Kevin Zoodsma (zoodsmak)      Join Date: Feb 2009       02-19-2013, 2:06 PM Reply   
I think it would be interesting to see one of the mags or WakeWorld put together an independent review of all the surf systems. It seems MC, Nautique, Malibu, and Tige all have different options available and they probably all have pros and cons. I'd also like to see how effective these options are on each MFGs 20' boats and their 24' boats because it wouldn't surprise me if the option worked really good on one model and not as well on the others.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       02-19-2013, 3:15 PM Reply   
Talked to a buddy of mine who's both a boater (slalom mostly) and a MIT undergrad. Says tabs and surfgate virtually the same both affect the yaw regardless of direction. Used the analogy of a planes flaps on the wings. Drop tabs on one wing only and it will yaw the plane as it essentially slows down one side by increasing resistance. He did say tabs would roll the boat as well though.

Anyway this video shows the tabs doing exactly the same thing as surfgate so I don't know. That's for the surfers to discuss though.
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-19-2013, 3:26 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetRanger View Post
Talked to a buddy of mine who's both a boater (slalom mostly) and a MIT undergrad. Says tabs and surfgate virtually the same both affect the yaw regardless of direction. Used the analogy of a planes flaps on the wings. Drop tabs on one wing only and it will yaw the plane as it essentially slows down one side by increasing resistance. He did say tabs would roll the boat as well though.

Anyway this video shows the tabs doing exactly the same thing as surfgate so I don't know. That's for the surfers to discuss though.
Tell your buddy Surfgate works on the principal of delayed convergence, not yawing the boat to generate a larger wake. They are incredibly different ways of accomplishing the same end goal. Surfgate is not effecting the running attitude of the boat, rather it is effecting the way the wake transitions off the stern.

The specific theories in fluid dynamics that are being demonstrated by Surfgate (and NSS) are shown below (for your MIT buddy):
Attached Images
 
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       02-19-2013, 3:52 PM Reply   
^LOL I'll show this to him and tell him he's been owned on the Internet.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       02-19-2013, 4:08 PM Reply   
He asked me if there was any countersteer required when you are going in a straight line? Anyone with a surfgate boat know if this is the case? He seems confident that the delayed convergence is a result of the yaw created by the tabs and says the presence of countersteer requirements to go in a straight line would prove this. His degree is in engineering physics. This man is also near the top of our class at Johns Hopkins Med so I'm afraid to not believe him. He's also a skier so that does take away from his cred though.
Old    Dave Diaz (wakebrdr94)      Join Date: Jul 2010       02-19-2013, 4:27 PM Reply   
I would like to see a video of a surfgate boat leaning. I haven't seen the other boats in person, so I can't comment on them. If it is leaning, it's not weighted evenly
Old    Preston (Bamabonners)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-19-2013, 4:57 PM Reply   
Jetranger, lets break this down in much easier terms for your "friend".... Surfgate and NSS use yaw around the vertical axis. surf tabs use roll around longitudinal axis. The two are dealing with different axis. Tell him to check Wikipedia if he is still not understanding it.
Old     (JetRanger)      Join Date: Feb 2013       02-19-2013, 5:30 PM Reply   
I told him to create his own account and come argue with you but he doesn't care enough nor do I. Have no intention of buying a Mastercraft or Malibu anyways and no intention of getting into surfing. Moot point I guess.
Old    Lionel (lionel)      Join Date: Nov 2005       02-19-2013, 9:15 PM Reply   
Looks good to me, doesn't seem to be listing too much. I would like to see the wakeboard wake and surf wave with more weight, i.e. optional fly high system! Anybody notice who's driving?
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-19-2013, 10:53 PM Reply   
I think the wake looks pretty good too considering it's an empty boat with three dudes in it. I didn't realize that the MC tabs could do that. Did anybody else?

It's funny, I remember when the Surf Tabs came out several years ago. The local MC dealer got their first boat equiped with the tabs in, an X45, and I was there for the maiden voyage. They fiddled around with those tabs for an hour and the wave looked terrible. I walked away from that demo thinking the whole thing was a gimmick. And I continued to think that until I just saw that video.

To me the most puzzling revelation of this video is the fact that MC has had this cool feature for years, and they've totally missed the boat when it comes to marketing and communicating it. There has been almost zero buzz about it. Most MC's I see leave the showroom w/out this feature. If it's really as cool as this video makes it look, why has it been largely ignored since inception?
Old    E (22vdrive)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-20-2013, 4:36 AM Reply   
Not to impressed with the results. It doesn't make me want to run out and put to extra tabs on my boat. I want to see a video with the wake dialed for surfing using this system. I know the woons have their wake dialed but I am unsure if they have three trim tabs on theirs. Also I really see no innovation in this.

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-20-2013, 5:57 AM Reply   
DBC- You are right about the tabs in their first year. They would help to shape the wave on a heavily weighted boat, but they wouldn't create the wave, or have the ability to switch sides. As of 2012, they almost doubled the size of the tabs. The larger tabs made a pretty big difference. This is why they actually seem to work now.... With that said, in order to get a top notch wave, you still need to weight one side more than the other. (At least on the X25, and X30. I have no experience with the X10, although I would assume that it will behave a lot like the X30)

E- I believe the woons has surf tabs. His boat has pro package, so it def has the attitude plate in the middle. I don't feel that the tabs do a good job of forming the wave on a weighted boat, and they don't work good for changing sides like surfgate. They do, however, offer tunability to the length, shape, and push of the wave. That is something that surfgate doesn't do (yet). I am not sure which setup I would prefer. Surfgate is easier to weight, and setup, and you can jump sides. (which is awesome, although I have not been able to do and stay with the boat yet. My friend got his new Bu pretty late last summer). With surf tabs, you can push a button and move the pocket around, and change the amount of push depending on the surfers weight and size of the board.... It would be nice to have both systems on one boat!!
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       02-20-2013, 6:36 AM Reply   
I guess I'm seeing this from a different angle than most of you guys are..

I'm not saying that this is "innovation" or that this is "pushing the sport" or this is another "game changer".. Those are the fun WakeWorld buzzwords for 2012 and 2013.

I simply see a boat that has never been traditionally seen as a surf boat (no mastercraft really has that title, to be fair) putting out a nice *looking* wave with only stock ballast. No, the transition from port to starboard isn't nearly as instant as NSS or Surfgate - but the fact that you can change as quickly as you can has more value when switching from regular to goofy riders rather than shifting from wake to wake while actually surfing.

I'm impressed by the size and how clean the wake is on a boat that is not known as being a surf boat on something with stock ballast. I don't think MC puts more than like 1,200lbs in ANY of their boats, do they? I suspect (only assumption) that adding more weight (like most core riders will) would be a net benefit to the wave and wake.

Overall - I'm just more impressed with what they are showing from the new X10. Sounds like this is going to be a competitive boat with the VLX, 210, Z1 where MC has had a void in the marketspace the past few years. The past 3-5 years they have been very strong in the 22-25' market with the X Star and 30/35/45 but the 21' market wasn't their "money" wheelhouse. Even the X25 is usually compared with larger boats (230's, LSV's) due to it's size and inetrior space. With as many VLX's and 210's and 21V's as you see out there - the 21' market is obviously a really nice wheelhouse where a lot of owners can fit into garages and slips/lifts and smaller lakes. the X10 looks to be a nice competitor now instead of MC's alternative with larger boats. The X1 has been widely recognized as a great wake - but very small on storage space and technology when competing heads up against the other 21' flagships.

The wave isn't ground breaking, the surf tabs aren't ground breaking - but MC has obviously done something nice with this new hull and it will be interesting to see if they can make "waves" again in the 21' market space.
Old    William Burell (williamburell)      Join Date: Sep 2011       02-20-2013, 6:52 AM Reply   
Quote:
I simply see a boat that has never been traditionally seen as a surf boat (no mastercraft really has that title, to be fair)
x30. Nuff said
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       02-20-2013, 6:58 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by williamburell View Post
x30. Nuff said
Agree to disagree.

When you go to any surf forum or surf expo (WakeWorld or otherwise) and people start talking about the top surf machines - the X30 is rarely brought up. Typically only by "MasterCraft guys".

Enzo, Z3/RZ2/RZ4, Supreme 226, Bu' 247, etc..

I'm not saying that the X-30 doesn't have a great surf wave. It does. But the boat is only 1.5 seasons old to start with and my entire post is actually focused exclusively around MC putting out a true 21' boat that appears to be competitive with its peers. You simply picked out the piece that you had some personal attachment too.

"nuff said" is rarely an argument worth replying to regardless. the X30 has a great surf wave *and* wakeboard wake but isn't typically brought up when discussing "top dogs" for either sport. This thread is about the X10 and what I consider its surprising wave given the lack of extra ballast.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       02-20-2013, 6:59 AM Reply   
I like the idea but there is no sub for weight, we had a surf comp in Orlando back in 2010, MC sponsored with 2 X45's with the all new (at the time) surf tabs, they had tons of weight, huge crew in the boats and the waves were still nowhere close to my Avy that I had at the time, we had Chase staying with us for the event and he was a great sport but was not impressed either.
Old    William Burell (williamburell)      Join Date: Sep 2011       02-20-2013, 7:16 AM Reply   
Quote:
Agree to disagree.

When you go to any surf forum or surf expo (WakeWorld or otherwise) and people start talking about the top surf machines - the X30 is rarely brought up. Typically only by "MasterCraft guys".
I imagine those other boats are mostly brought up by their owners too.

Quote:
I'm not saying that the X-30 doesn't have a great surf wave. It does. But the boat is only 1.5 seasons old to start with and my entire post is actually focused exclusively around MC putting out a true 21' boat that appears to be competitive with its peers. You simply picked out the piece that you had some personal attachment too.
must have missed the part about a true 21' boat since you mentioned......

Enzo, Z3/RZ2/RZ4, Supreme 226, Bu' 247, etc. Wheres the 21 there?

Quote:
"nuff said" is rarely an argument worth replying to regardless
but you did

Quote:
the X30 has a great surf wave *and* wakeboard wake but isn't typically brought up when discussing "top dogs" for either sport. This thread is about the X10 and what I consider its surprising wave given the lack of extra ballast.
So what exactly are you arguing? You say MC doesn't have a great surf boat but then you say it has a great surf wave. Whats your point here again?
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-20-2013, 7:26 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by surffresh View Post
I like the idea but there is no sub for weight, we had a surf comp in Orlando back in 2010, MC sponsored with 2 X45's with the all new (at the time) surf tabs, they had tons of weight, huge crew in the boats and the waves were still nowhere close to my Avy that I had at the time, we had Chase staying with us for the event and he was a great sport but was not impressed either.

Considering that MC never marketed, or designed the X45 to be a surf boat......Nor does it have anything in common with the hulls of the X10, X30, or X25 (Which are the more surf oriented machines). I dont really see what you are trying to say..... We already know that most of the MC lineup is not "exceptional" for surfing.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       02-20-2013, 7:30 AM Reply   
guess you just had to be there and listen to what they were saying about the boats, best ever blah blah blah and you would think they would know, but what I was saying is there is no sub for weight and a deep V is a bonus
Old    Lionel (lionel)      Join Date: Nov 2005       02-20-2013, 7:34 AM Reply   
IXFE, you should demo a X-10 or X-30 with surf tabs before you pull the trigger on the 23. (Or after, guess it doesn't matter Give me a rundown on your thoughts I agree tho, MC has missed the boat. That's Parker driving, VP of sales and marketing!
Old     (will5150)      Join Date: Oct 2002       02-20-2013, 7:46 AM Reply   
I Wonder how far off topic this thread can get ! X 10 X 10 X 10!!!
I saw this boat at the show this year- it's a very nice boat. I'd like to hear from someone at MC as to what makes this hull/boat so much different than the X 15- another 21' model they discontinued. I really liked the x15 and would seriously consider a used one. It' was slightly larger ( like 4-6 inches maybe) and the bow space is better, but behind the windshield they feel about the same size. I think the x10 is narrower as well. Looks to be built to compete with the SAN 210 so i'd like to see the wakeboard wake as well.
I really like the reversable back seat- Similiar to Nautique again.
There are a lot of interesting new surf-oriented ideas out there and yes, weight make most wakes better to a degree, but starting with a great wake with stock ballast is absolutely critical if you expect to compete and justify the sticker price on these freekin things anymore. It I were looking for this size of boat, i'd serously consider the x 10, it's just a little too small for me.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-20-2013, 7:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by surffresh View Post
guess you just had to be there and listen to what they were saying about the boats, best ever blah blah blah and you would think they would know, but what I was saying is there is no sub for weight and a deep V is a bonus


Gotcha. I understand your point now.
Old    William Burell (williamburell)      Join Date: Sep 2011       02-20-2013, 7:59 AM Reply   
btw to stay on topic the x10 is a great boat. Tooled around in it at the boat show and to be honest if my local dealer didn't suck and paid us a bit of attention I prob would have bought one that day. Was def the best finished boat at the show in the range imho. Don't blow a load MB boys there wasn't one there just stating what I saw. Would have been really nice if they would have copied the walk thru rear of the 25 on the 10 though or even a pickle. For the price I liked it the most out of the MC lineup this year.
Old    E (22vdrive)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-20-2013, 8:05 AM Reply   
I want to see an owners video with someone surfing behind the wave. In my opinion the wave doesn't look that great. I'm sure it would get better with added weight.
Old     (pkh80)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-20-2013, 8:05 AM Reply   
Do they have another vid showing a rider? Its really hard to tell how big the wave is an if its even surfable...
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-20-2013, 9:35 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionel View Post
IXFE, you should demo a X-10 or X-30 with surf tabs before you pull the trigger on the 23. (Or after, guess it doesn't matter Give me a rundown on your thoughts I agree tho, MC has missed the boat. That's Parker driving, VP of sales and marketing!
I thought Scott Crutchfield was VP of Sales & Marketing.

As far as an MC demo goes... it's probably not going to happen.

Last edited by ixfe; 02-20-2013 at 9:38 AM.
Old    Jon Hunter (hunter660)      Join Date: Aug 2007       02-20-2013, 10:15 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
I thought Scott Crutchfield was VP of Sales & Marketing.

As far as an MC demo goes... it's probably not going to happen.
Looks like Parker and Clowe to me. Crutchfield is VP of portfolio planning now according to the MC website.
Old    Preston (Bamabonners)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-20-2013, 10:32 AM Reply   
I liked the x10 at our boat show. I believe the price was high 70s. That much cheaper than the san 210 and about the same as a VLX around here. Space wise, I think the vlx felt bigger inside, but x10 had some good seating configurations and a nice dash. I think it would be a good challenger to vlx and 210. Imo, I would rank the 210 3rd between those three. Would need a demo to determine the winner between vlc and x10.

Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express
Old    William Burell (williamburell)      Join Date: Sep 2011       02-20-2013, 10:42 AM Reply   
Quote:
I liked the x10 at our boat show. I believe the price was high 70s. That much cheaper than the san 210 and about the same as a VLX around here. Space wise, I think the vlx felt bigger inside, but x10 had some good seating configurations and a nice dash. I think it would be a good challenger to vlx and 210. Imo, I would rank the 210 3rd between those three. Would need a demo to determine the winner between vlc and x10.

Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express
72 at ours I believe
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-20-2013, 12:26 PM Reply   
The X10 at the Chicago boat show was "boat show priced" at $96k. I do not recall the msrp, except that it was over $100k.
Old    William Burell (williamburell)      Join Date: Sep 2011       02-20-2013, 1:28 PM Reply   
yeaaaaaaaaaaaa thats x-25 dollars right there. I wanna say the 30 at ours was like 87 or 88
Old    Michael (sprocketeer)      Join Date: Nov 2012       02-20-2013, 2:33 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by williamburell View Post
yeaaaaaaaaaaaa thats x-25 dollars right there. I wanna say the 30 at ours was like 87 or 88
William, I sent you a PM.
Old    Dan Salsbury (Dgsalsbury)      Join Date: Feb 2013       02-20-2013, 4:13 PM Reply   
I am really stoked about this post. I'm currently in a 2012 MC x15. Been truly happy with. Wakeboarding is the primary focus not surfing but I've toyed around with fat sacs and different weight variations. I've two extra 400 lbs I use on occasions. The best surfing night we had with the extra ballast filled i was a bit scared to drive cause I thought we were gonna gangster lean right over. The only other lean I've seen like that is on Keenan Flegal's Red Centurion at Dean's lavelles house. I filled the port rear factory, middle tank, 200 lbs in the bow and filled a 400 lb sac in the port rear storage. We had about 7 people in. The surf wake on the 15 that night was the most dialed in I've seen. (ill post a photo of it). The other surf wakes Last year ive witnessed is a natique 230 w factory and 6 people, x25 factory and 5 people plus 400 port rear storage,, x30 with factory and two people. The 15 In my eyes was the biggest I've seen but I realize the other models didn't have equal weight since adding the sacs but all of those boats are heavier than the 15. The 15 surf wake is very very vertical/ poppy vs rampy as compared to the other ones. The 30 was long and tall and wide and real clean. looked pretty gnarly in my opinion especially with only two people in. The x10 is 4400 dry and has a narrower beam of 98' vs 100-102 of all the other boats I listed and the draft is 2 inches deeper than any other one here as well as the 210 which to me means the 10 is going to leave a little more vertical/ poppy wake.


I don't know everything about surf wakes and wakeboard wakes, just what I've experienced... I am glad there's some good stuff going around about the 10 cause I am really curious.. More so about the wakeboard wake vs the surf wake.



Do you guys have any videos of the 10 wakeboard wake?
Old     (CarZin)      Join Date: Feb 2011       02-22-2013, 11:22 AM Reply   
I don't know if its the video recording or not, but I am digging how quiet it is. I am hoping the quiet tip exhuast system on the Enzo I ordered is going to really make a difference.

Not digging the wave in this video. Its clean, but doesnt look very tall or long. Of course, given that there is no ballast, its better. But I'd like to see them do the same run, but this time properly weighted. As it is, I wouldnt want to surf it very long.
Old    Chris Gawenda (ToPHeR35)      Join Date: Jul 2011       05-31-2013, 4:19 PM Reply   
bump for good discussion!

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